Should child units be attached to their mother or their father?

[indigoasis]

21 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

When children are tied to one parent only while the opposite parent cast can be literally anyone, it's really hard to write in an effective relationship with both parents. Which is why Larcei and Scathach don't seem to give a fuck about their father while they constantly talk about their mother. Or why Arthur and Tine don't care about their father, just Tailtiu. And so on and so forth.

This is true, even in later games since the variable parent often has a generic support conversation with minor changes to what they say to better fit their style of speaking. I think Finn and Lewyn are two of the incredibly rare exceptions since they're the only potential fathers to be around in Gen 2 of FE4 (Lewyn as Seliph's backpack and Finn as a playable unit), which makes it a lot easier to write conversations between their potential children (and seeing the difference between Finn's tearjerking reunions and Lewyn's kids telling him to fuck off).

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I'd say it's the better option for characterization, too. I would still like to see supports specific to the non-linked parent, and one of the advantages of that is you can see how Percy's relationship with his mother is different if she's Effie versus, say, Camilla. I think the writers would be forced to do more interesting things with that limitation than they would consciously choose to do if they made a different child for each pairing.

There are some translations for the Japan-only Festival of Bonds DLC for Fates that you can find online, which has more character specific interactions rather than the generic parent conversations if that interests you at all. For example, you could type in "Midori Azura" or "Soleil Camilla" (so essentially "(insert child) (insert variable parent)") and find results for it. They aren't very long, but it's at least something.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I'm a bit confused. I'm pretty sure Reina and Ryoma don't support each other.

That's my point.

[AnonymousSpeed]

21 minutes ago, indigoasis said:

There are some translations for the Japan-only Festival of Bonds DLC for Fates that you can find online, which has more character specific interactions rather than the generic parent conversations if that interests you at all. For example, you could type in "Midori Azura" or "Soleil Camilla" (so essentially "(insert child) (insert variable parent)") and find results for it. They aren't very long, but it's at least something.

That's kinda neat, I guess?

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's my point.

I'm still a bit confused, but maybe I'm being unclear, and I apologize. My point was that, if I see two characters have an S-support (which I can do in the S-support menu), I'd like to know that I'm getting a child unit out of it. For two characters to have no support, there's no confusion there. Does that make more sense?

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

that Reina is completely and inexplicably barren >.> (seriously don't get that decision in Fates, in Awakening it made some sense as it was late game characters, butin Fates it just seemed to be randomly assigned).

The Fates Avatarsexuals are:

• Gunter
• Reina
• Scarlet
• Yukimura
• Flora
• Izana
• Shura
• Fuga
• Anna

What do these have in common?

• A few of these are considered, either objectively or by Japanese popular entertainment standards, old. Gunter, Reina, Yukimura, and Fuga at least.
• With the exception of Anna, all of these join prepromoted. And unlike the other prepromotes, they aren't royal siblings.

Anna is b/c DLC and IS was too lazy to give her a full set of supports. The others make sense, a strange sense -Flora doesn't really belong here based on age- but a sense.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Interdimensional Observer

[Dark Holy Elf]

34 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I'm still a bit confused, but maybe I'm being unclear, and I apologize. My point was that, if I see two characters have an S-support (which I can do in the S-support menu), I'd like to know that I'm getting a child unit out of it. For two characters to have no support, there's no confusion there. Does that make more sense?

It seems to me the interface could state this pretty easily. In fact, that's what Fates (and I believe Awakening?) already did: only some pairs reach S support, and those that don't (e.g. siblings like Camilla/Xander) would be showed as ending at A, with the interface telling you that ahead of time. The only change I (and I suspect, others) are proposing is to limit this list of potential S supports more.

[Eveangaline]

I'm pretty sure awakening and fates both made the decision based on 'we don't want to have to make animal hybrid versions of every kid, so whichever gender has shifters in the first gen, is the gender that has the kids tied to them.'

 

Which is entirely fair.

[Metal Flash]

5 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Y'know, I'm going to go against the grain here and say that the mixed option is actually a bad idea, as is having the child be determined by pairing. I'd prefer it be stuck to a specific parent.

Even if these hypothetical developers are free from human limitations, I am not, so I'd prefer the mechanic was simple to understand and manipulate.

Having a child unit tied to parent of a specific sex makes things a lot more readable. I see an S-rank support available for a couple, I know I'll get a child unit that is somewhat like them. I don't have remember whether the Laslow-Selena pairing gives me a child or not, which is something I'd have to look up if I were a blind player. Unless you wanted to give units a visible fertility rating, and I think there's enough dating sim aspects in Fire Emblem as is. I can easily determine that, if I want to make Midori an Oni Savage, I can do that by pairing Kaze with Rinkah, instead of getting a totally different character or potentially nothing at all.

One child per couple also spreads classes around more evenly, which I think it at least interesting, although you could debate whether that's good or not.

I'd say it's the better option for characterization, too. I would still like to see supports specific to the non-linked parent, and one of the advantages of that is you can see how Percy's relationship with his mother is different if she's Effie versus, say, Camilla. I think the writers would be forced to do more interesting things with that limitation than they would consciously choose to do if they made a different child for each pairing.

You could say something similar about how stats and skills work, too- the almost recklessly flexible nature of Fates pairings lets some pretty interesting builds arise naturally without them being intentionally designed.

Giving mothers and fathers a linked child each might kind of work, but I think that would also be a little complex to manipulate intelligently and runs the risk of giving you two characters who end up too similar.

Fair points all around.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

That's kinda neat, I guess?

I'm still a bit confused, but maybe I'm being unclear, and I apologize. My point was that, if I see two characters have an S-support (which I can do in the S-support menu), I'd like to know that I'm getting a child unit out of it. For two characters to have no support, there's no confusion there. Does that make more sense?

I get you point, my point was that cgaracters who dont reproduce naturally wouldnt S support. Outside of the same sex fates style support where theres an obvious elephant in the room (which could be addressed in a number of ways), it would be nonsensical to have a systrm where S supports mean kids and then just not have kids be produced with cerrain pairings. There is precedent for this with Avatarsexuals, which is why I brought up Reina. Characters that don't reproduce don't S support, simple as that.

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The Fates Avatarsexuals are:

• Gunter
• Reina
• Scarlet
• Yukimura
• Flora
• Izana
• Shura
• Fuga
• Anna

What do these have in common?

• A few of these are considered, either objectively or by Japanese popular entertainment standards, old. Gunter, Reina, Yukimura, and Fuga at least.
• With the exception of Anna, all of these join prepromoted. And unlike the other prepromotes, they aren't royal siblings.

Anna is b/c DLC and IS was too lazy to give her a full set of supports. The others make sense, a strange sense -Flora doesn't really belong here based on age- but a sense.

The boys make sense as they're late coming semi bonus characters that they didn't want to make children for. Its the girls that seem more arbritrary. As Reina and Scarlet are definitely younger and Gregor, and even from the same game don't look much older than the likes of Orochi. You also get them before the last child bearing unit (Ryoma in Birthright) while in Awakening, with the exception of Anna, all the Avatarsexuals are after the last reproducing units (Cherche and Henry, though i guess you can just refuse to recruit Donnel until endgame) and also after the reveal of time traveling children existing. Fates also wont let you recruit all child units without a specific avatar gender and pairing which would just be a complete non issue if Reina, Scarlet and Flora could reproduce with the Fathers.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Jotari

[Sunwoo]

If IS ever decides to do marriage and children as a mechanic again, I'd like for it to be more akin the lines of Genealogy, where fully grown children don't fight side-by-side with their still young and attractive parents. Time travel as a storytelling device is not one I am fond of, and the less said about babyrealms the better. I also think having established couples and older characters who can't just be paired willy-nilly is great as well. Heck, you can have some older characters have a preexisting spouse and a predetermined child who becomes important in the "second gen" half of the game.

That said, I think the avatar is the bigger problem when it comes to the majority of the cast being young and fuckable rather than marriage in itself. Because 3H DEFINITELY had this problem and it didn't have kids. So, yeah, I'd like a new game without an avatar someday.

[SoulWeaver]

17 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And unlike the other prepromotes, they aren't royal siblings.

-Felicia and Jakob shift uncomfortably-

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Its the girls that seem more arbritrary. As Reina and Scarlet are definitely younger

I'd like to remind you that Scarlet gets murdered like one Chapter after you get her in Revelations, there's virtually no way that didn't contribute considering Gunter also can't S-Support in Revelations at all until the game is almost over. I'll totally give you Reina and Flora, considering how we can all see she was simping for Jakob I was surprised Flora couldn't marry him, maybe they were making a joke with the VA, but Scarlet, if not Gunter, is probably a victim of Fates trying to make three paths work(though Kaze is an argument against this).

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

-Felicia and Jakob shift uncomfortably-

I'd like to remind you that Scarlet gets murdered like one Chapter after you get her in Revelations, there's virtually no way that didn't contribute considering Gunter also can't S-Support in Revelations at all until the game is almost over. I'll totally give you Reina and Flora, considering how we can all see she was simping for Jakob I was surprised Flora couldn't marry him, maybe they were making a joke with the VA, but Scarlet, if not Gunter, is probably a victim of Fates trying to make three paths work(though Kaze is an argument against this).

I think you actually can marry Corrin to Scarlet the one chapter she's around. And if she could marry other people and player's felt like grinding up to S rank in one window of opportunity then why not? At worst just do what they did with Gunther and make her pairable in Birthright and not Revelation (honestly I question why they even made her playable in Revelation). I think Gunther not marriage material in Revealation has a lot more to do with him sort of being Corrin's father in that route and that route alone.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Children should be set in stone because pairings ought to be set in stone like Pent+Louise. Also, if there's a war spanning an entire generation, that means there's a flood of orphans. I wanna play as those orphans more than I want to play as the offspring of A) Boy who Trains Trains Trains All Day and B) Girl who Likes Food as much as any living breathing human should.

Oh but my ideal Fire Emblem game doing the Geneology thing would have shipping, but only three Gen 2 units would be impacted by said shipping. Not everyone's having kids - or living conveniently long enough to have that opportunity. The rest are set in stone characters that are impacted by your Gen 1 decisions in other ways besides their genes. God just thinking of all the girls in Sigurd's army plopping twins on the same day, while they're on the run from the cops. Sometimes right there in the Yied Desert as you're scrambling to get those last Love Points on Chapter 5. The arbitrariness almost takes me out of the experience as much as Baby Dimensions in the 3DS era.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

God just thinking of all the girls in Sigurd's army plopping twins on the same day, while they're on the run from the cops. Sometimes right there in the Yied Desert as you're scrambling to get those last Love Points on Chapter 5. The arbitrariness almost takes me out of the experience as much as Baby Dimensions in the 3DS era.

I think you need to apply some Gameplay and Story Segregation there.

Most chapters, specially during Gen 1, had large time skips happening between them. Six months between Chapters 2 and 3, and a full year between 3 and 4. It's during those times where the kids would be born, when the party stayed put in place for months. Maybe conceived in the days/weeks before the capture of the final castle (since they'd spend days just marching between battles even within the same chapter), but otherwise most of the pregnancies would be happening during the downtime of battle. While you can still gather love points right before ending Gen 1, I don't think story-wise it's canon that's what happened. As per Gen 2, Lana, Larcei, Scathach, Lester, and Diarmud were already born before Sigurd orders Oifey and Shannan to flee to Isaach with Seliph. It's even brought up in the twins' talk convo in Chapter 6:

We weren’t even two years old yet at the time. We fled to Isaac with Oifey.

Which means that, even if you can hold off from pairing up Ira up to the last second, she has to have married and gave birth before Chapter 5 for the talk convo to be true. And this discrepancy rises so as to not pressure the player to have time limits (other than the end of Gen 1, of course) over when to pair the characters up, like Chrom (though his case is more on who rather than if).

Edited October 23, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Oh but my ideal Fire Emblem game doing the Geneology thing would have shipping, but only three Gen 2 units would be impacted by said shipping. Not everyone's having kids - or living conveniently long enough to have that opportunity. 

Ah, so you're looking for the one cartridge integrated Elibe game then!

[Metal Flash]

Ideally, I would want a mix of predetermined couples with kids and child units attached to specific units. For those that are player determined, I would want a limited pool of potential suitors. While this would limit replayability, it gives an opportunity to make the child of each option more unique. 

Some units would come from existing couples the player recruits (ala QuanxEthlyn or PentxLouise), while others would aged young gen1 characters (Shanan or Oifey). Heck, some could even be the children of enemies from gen 1, like Ares.

Definetly agree there should be a proper timeskip and that parents should age. No idea how an Avatar should be handled in that situation. 

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 10/22/2022 at 4:12 AM, Jotari said:

I get you point, my point was that cgaracters who dont reproduce naturally wouldnt S support.

Okay, I see what you're saying now, thank you. I had thought, for some reason, you were talking about a hypothetical system where characters could S-support and have no children.

On 10/22/2022 at 4:12 AM, Jotari said:

As Reina and Scarlet are definitely younger and Gregor, and even from the same game don't look much older than the likes of Orochi. You also get them before the last child bearing unit (Ryoma in Birthright)

That is a little weird, but to be fair, I think they come after all the female characters in the primary dating pool. That's not strictly the case for males in Conquest and Revelation, since you recruit Gunter before Xander (CQ) / everyone else (Rev), but that exception seems fairly reasonable. So, I guess it seems more linear if you look at the two sexes as separate strings of units.

On 10/22/2022 at 4:27 PM, SoulWeaver said:

I'd like to remind you that Scarlet gets murdered like one Chapter after you get her in Revelations, there's virtually no way that didn't contribute considering Gunter also can't S-Support in Revelations at all until the game is almost over. I'll totally give you Reina and Flora, considering how we can all see she was simping for Jakob I was surprised Flora couldn't marry him, maybe they were making a joke with the VA, but Scarlet, if not Gunter, is probably a victim of Fates trying to make three paths work(though Kaze is an argument against this).

On 10/22/2022 at 7:11 PM, Jotari said:

I think you actually can marry Corrin to Scarlet the one chapter she's around. And if she could marry other people and player's felt like grinding up to S rank in one window of opportunity then why not? At worst just do what they did with Gunther and make her pairable in Birthright and not Revelation (honestly I question why they even made her playable in Revelation). I think Gunther not marriage material in Revealation has a lot more to do with him sort of being Corrin's father in that route and that route alone.

Corrin can marry Scarlet in Revelation, but I suspect that's because they already had the support conversation written out and everything. Though that kinda goes against the theory that Revelation influenced the supports they wrote for the other games.

Jakob is the only character who can support Gunter besides Corrin, so it wouldn't have been totally unheard of for him to support another Corrinsexual. However, Flora and the other characters you recruit by upgrading buildings seem more like bonus characters than proper recruits, since, well, tier 3 buildings that don't really do anything make for weird recruitment requirements.

[Jotari]

33 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Okay, I see what you're saying now, thank you. I had thought, for some reason, you were talking about a hypothetical system where characters could S-support and have no children.

That is a little weird, but to be fair, I think they come after all the female characters in the primary dating pool. That's not strictly the case for males in Conquest and Revelation, since you recruit Gunter before Xander (CQ) / everyone else (Rev), but that exception seems fairly reasonable. So, I guess it seems more linear if you look at the two sexes as separate strings of units.

Again, the men are understandable. They want the freedom to create characters like Izana and Gunther without having to also go to the trouble of create a child unit paired to them. Is the female units that could be paired up with absolutely no extra effort other than writing a few supports that I take umbrage with. If Scarlet could support with Ryoma then that's it, you have Shrio. No issues at all (except maybe in Revalation where she dies, but you can already make her the mothe rof Kana to no ill effects in Revalation so why not all children? Or just make her unplayable). Compared to Awakening, the only Avatarsexual male characters are the spot pass characters and Basilio. All of which come practically at end game and would have some serious headaches for the time continuity (imagine Owain the son of Gangrel traveling back in time. Gangrel marrying Chrom's sister in the original time would definitely have some knock on effects!). I suppose Basilio could have been a sperm donor in Awakening, but then you mess up his equivalence with Flavia.

Tl:dr, there are reasons the male Avatarsexual characters in Awakening are Avatarsexual, and there are reasons female and male Avatarsexuals exist in Awakening and Fates respectively (not wanting to create more kids for characters people probably won't pair anyway), but there's no real reason for female Avatarsexuals in Fates where they only have to be sperm donors. It would be like making Henry Avatarsexual (though even then that would make more sense than the three Fates girls, as he joins after the time skip and minutes before the reveal).

Quote

Jakob is the only character who can support Gunter besides Corrin, so it wouldn't have been totally unheard of for him to support another Corrinsexual. However, Flora and the other characters you recruit by upgrading buildings seem more like bonus characters than proper recruits, since, well, tier 3 buildings that don't really do anything make for weird recruitment requirements.

Yeah, I'm less peeved about Flora than Reina and Scarlet who are just normally recruited units that come earlier than some of the reproducing units. And overall, I think Avatarsexuals shouldn't be strictly Avatar only in their supports. They should definitely have platonic supports with appropriate characters. Nowi and Tiki, for example, have a great conversation in Harvest Scramble that definitely should have just been a regular support and not DLC that most people wouldn't bother to do.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jotari

[AnonymousSpeed]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

there's no real reason for female Avatarsexuals in Fates where they only have to be sperm donors.

gross

[genesis]

My god, I read "Should child units be attracted to their father or mother?" 

 

I stared to the screen scratching my head

Edited October 25, 2022 by genesis

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, genesis said:

My god, I read "Should child units be attracted to their father or mother?" 

 

I stared to the screen scratching my head

Actually something of a legitimate question considering the Avatar can be both the mother, father and spouse of any given non Morgan/Kana child unit XD

[jumpuff]

Set pairings with set children + replacement child units for every other pairing is the way. The children of canon pairings can have the detailed supports and plot relevance that normal FE characters have, while the replacement units are there as blank class-inheriting slates, born to the non-canon couples. I think that would please people like AnonymousSpeed and plot lovers like myself.

For some of the non-canon pairings, having a pop up on screen saying "(Character) and (Character) deepened their bond" would honestly be better than the half-baked "conversations" most units in Fates and Awakening ended up with. The writers could spend more time on supports they actually want to include for plot purposes instead, and hopefully the writing quality would go up

Edit: I didn't actually answer the title question, oops. It feels more natural to me for children to be attached to their mothers... probably because that's what society expects. I liked that Fates and Awakening seemed to alternate which gender the children were attached to, so I'd probably want IS to alternate it for future titles.

Edited November 5, 2022 by jumpuff