Ranking each game by classes: Fighter/Warrior

[Whisky]

Let’s move on to Axe users then. I’m going to include Warrior and WarMaster in 3H for this. There isn’t a distinction between Warrior and Berserker in that game so I’m going to count WarMaster for both topics. I’m only listing games that I’ve played and not including Shadow Dragon because I don’t feel familiar enough with it. There are no Axes in Echoes. I’m not going to talk about Engage yet because it’s still pretty new and I’m still forming my opinions on it.

Three Houses

Well how about that, 3H is on top instead of bottom for a change… I’m talking about WarMaster, not Warrior. WarMaster is the upgrade to Warrior in this game so it makes sense to include it. WarMaster is a very strong class with +5 Str and +20 Crit. It also has 6 Mov unlike some infantry classes. If you want mobility you pick Wyvern but if you want power you go with WarMaster. For raw killing power it competes with Sniper and Grappler and certain characters can kill effectively without any of that, so it’s not amazing, but it is still very strong. It can reach over 100% Crit with Smash. It’s also arguably better with Swords than the sword classes with its high Str and Crit bonus, and has possibly the best enemy phase combat in the game.

Radiant Dawn

I’m not sure, I haven’t really used either Boyd or Nolan much but this seems like a good spot for this game. Cavalry were somewhat nerfed in this fame with ledges and Boyd is decently strong and Nolan is pretty useful for the Dawn Brigade.

Path of Radiance

On the one hand, Boyd becomes really strong in this game and eventually doubles enemies effectively too, and at 1-2 range. He has good combat and Con being based on Str sort of makes him faster than he seems. On the other hand this is the game that gives mounted units super Canto and there are a lot of really good mounted units that can easily dominate the battlefield with Boyd not being able to keep up.

Binding Blade

This is a tough call, but I honestly think the class is better here than in the other GBA games, at least in a vacuum. The units in the class might be a different story, but it’s not like the Fighters are great units in the other GBA games either. Being able to use Bows as a Warrior is much more useful here than in the other GBA games. There is more competition for Heroes Crests in this game though. That’s definitely a fair and solid reason for putting this game lower, but Bartre is still pretty good.

Sacred Stones

Garcia is pretty useful early on. He has solid base stats and can double some of the very slow enemies in this game despite his low Spd. There are also ways to mitigate his low Spd issue with there being a few Speedwings in this game, along with him making good use of the Brave Axe and Garm. He can also straight up 1HKO frail enemies. He has 1-2 range and solid bulk. The class itself is not good though and Garcia does have Spd issues in part due to the class. Garcia definitely wants to promote to Hero over Warrior for the Spd increase which doesn’t help Warrior’s case.

Blazing Sword

The class itself is about the same as in Sacred Stones. Dorcas and Bartre are both really slow, more so than Garcia. I don’t have much to add. I just think Sacred Stones is more balanced and there’s a higher opportunity cost to using these two. Geitz is really good, but has his own issues with needing to train both Eliwood and Lyn to get him. I also think that’s just Geitz being really good in general and not much to do with his class.

Three Houses

…well, it’s sort of on top but also still at the bottom. WarMaster is good, but Warrior is one of the worst classes in 3H, with probably only Hero being worse. 5 move infantry class with poor stats and nothing special about it? Yeah, it’s terrible. It seems strange to list 3H twice but there’s such a big difference in quality between WarMaster and Warrior and I wanted to talk about how terrible Warrior is.

-

I can see the GBA games being in pretty much any order depending on the reasoning. I’m not sure about the Tellius games placement either, with POR being dominated by mounted units I don’t know if it should be above all the GBA games.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Whisky

[samthedigital]

FE5 probably takes the cake; Dagdar is a fantastic unit.

There isn't much of a difference between the FE6 to FE9 units unless you factor in opportunity cost and Geitz's recruitment. FE9 Boyd is fine, but he's mostly a shove bot and random start of map utility because it's FE9. He doesn't cost anything because there's so much BXP to go around though.

I would rank FE10 second out of the ones listed so far. Nolan is pretty good especially early on. He can be hard to make use of later on in the game if he doesn't snowball, but he's great early regardless. Boyd is a little worse. I think that he does well with transfer bonuses, but he's somewhat underwhelming without them.

I'm not as familiar with the reclassing era, but without a lot of thought the Engage Warriors are really good. Backup utility with longbows, good class stats and weapons, growths; etc. It has everything you'd want for an infantry class.

[Shadow Mir]

IMO...

• D rank in the GBA games as a whole. To put it bluntly, outside of Geitz, who has his own issues, a GBA fighter is a hard sell. In Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones in particular, they get zero speed when promoting to Warrior.
• D rank in the DS games. Fighter isn't that bad a class here, but Warrior is outclassed by many other classes.
• C rank in Path of Radiance. On the one hand, Boyd is a pretty good investment. On the other hand, Path of Radiance is dominated by mounted units.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[ping]

BinBla: Good promotion line, very good promotion gains, but without any particularly great representatives. Lot and Bartre are OK, Ward is bad. Axelock makes them rather inconsistent - there's some maps without too many enemy lance users (ch.5 and 8x have literally zero...), on which unpromoted Fighters will always have terrible hitrates. Getting bows, even if it's just iron, does help with this, although there's more lance users in later chapters anyway. ...although those tend to be flyers, so getting bows is nice after all.

BlaBla: Both Dorcas and Bartre suffer from there being no +Spd on promotion, so I'd say that despite axes being considerably better than in BinBla, the Fighter class might still be worse in this game. A hypothetical speedy Fighter would be just fine with his class (like, if Guy swapped his sword for an axe), but alas. Geitz is pretty good, though, if you get him.

SacSto: Neither Garcia nor Ross mind starting as / going through Fighter, although I prefer Pirate>Berserker for the kid. However, they both want to promote into Hero instead of Warrior because the "no +Spd" problem returns, so while I'd put the base class above the other GBA games, Warrior is at its worst, having neither good arguments to promote into nor any prepromotes repping it.

PoR: If you don't care about turncounts too much, Boyd's combat is eventually funny good. But, of course, Horse Emblem, and Paladins/Flyers tend to be plenty good at fighting, too. It's worth noting that Boyd isn't that tanky, despite his huge HP, but that's not so much the fault of his class.

RD: Pretty decent, I think? For me, the main issue with the Reaver class is that it kinda competes with Haar and Jill for tower spots, since I'd rather have my axe users use the Brave Axe or Urvan there. But that's just a small part of the overall game. Before that, they're both flawed, but still useful, if I recall. Transfer!Boyd, if you get HP/Str/Spd, is really good.

Shadow Dragon: Still haven't played it in a while. Fighter's decent, Warrior sucks, I believe. Berserker and Hero (ignoring Wyvern because it's in the other class set), are better axe-using classes.

New Mystery: I love Warrior!Yubello, but I think it's similar to SD, right? Berserker and Hero are still better, with Wyvern being a valid post-promo choice, as well. I don't know if Warrior is ever the best pick between the four axe classes.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Tanking? Yeah I wish these guys made good tanks. Only ranking games I've played since 2017

1. Three Houses: Axes are king in this game. Every physical unit wants Str+ 2 and Death Blow so that enemies don't perenially take 3-4 attackers to down on Maddening. And even beyond that class mastery, the Brigand is a good class for boosting your strength growth by 10 - nobody minds having to fight in this class. Strength is without question the most vital stat, so every point you pick up is crucial for units trying to secure ORKOs and having their AS high enough to survive on maddening. Axes are also crucial to certify as a Wyvern or War Master, which are the best classes in the game in my Maddening experience. Assuming we constrict this ranking to just the fighter, brigand, warrior, and War Master, it's a stacked set of classes with a wide variety of units doing well in them and benefiting from their class masteries. Only the level 20-29 range is falling behind the likes of Wyvern Rider, Grappler, Sniper, and Fortress Knight. The only drawback is the axe's low hit rate. Smash and The forged mace are a constant crutch for getting near consistent accuracy on maddening. And hit rate issue is a notorious hitch in the overpowered Batallion Wrath builds.
2. FE9 It's just Boyd baby. Unless you want to count Berserker Largo, but I honestly don't remember trying him out. Boyd is pretty consistently good when you stick with him on Hard mode. Like Ike, he's nothing special at the start, but he's got great availability (and the level design really warrants using all the Greil Mercenaries sans Mia and Rolf) and is often doubling just from his high strength. Forged Hand Axes are the meta. He lacks canto, but he's got heart.
3. FE1 Barst is really good, and the other three axe users aren't so bad either. He can't promote, but base stats and growths are great for FE1 standards. Including an outrageous 50% defense growth. He will take off with the exp you can spare for him in much less time than other units. Barst's average stats at level 20 generally match a level 20/10 Cain, Abel, or Hardin (you won't get units to level 20/20 without arena abuse) And he only needs 15 levels to get there. The Devil Axe is tied for the strongest weapon in the game. Only 9 uses, but unlike Gradivus I'm pretty sure the Hammerne will work on it.
   1. Bit of an issue unique to FE1 is that they stop selling axes in chapter 8-19. If you know this ahead of time, you can stock up on spare axes no problem. I recommend hammers over the standard axe. Buy 1 or 2, +1 for every additional axe user you're taking long term and you should have enough to last until chapter 20. A player unaware of this  who didn't buy a single axe as there was no perceived need can potentially run out of axes to use by the end.
4. FE3 Crucially, this is the only Archanea game that removes Hammers. So Axe units have no effective weapon damage. In it's place they added the Silver Axe which is good late game, but I'd prefer taking out early/mid game armors. There's only one silver axe in Book 1 so it's a poor trade there. I still recommend raising Barst in book 1 because FE3 demands good unmounted units for its indoor maps (which comprise the toughest of those maps, generally). I'm not certain where axe users fall in Book 2's viability because I haven't met one yet.
5. FE8 Garcia is not bad. In the Hard Mode/No Grinding meta, I tend to find that Garcia is 1-2 points of speed short of doubling and ORKOing enemies, so a speedwing can be a great investment. the choice between Hero and Warrior is a choice between +2 spd and +2 Con. Warrior Garcia becomes even harder to pick up, but I've gotten good results with that class. I think it's the best class for using bows because you can trade swap him to his hand axe. FE8 is 1-2 range hell on enemy phase. As I recall there's quite a few fliers in Sacred Stones, and people tend to forget effective damage is 3x instead of 2x like it is in FE7 and FE9. Garcia would not need to double in that case. 
   1. As for Ross, you have to understand that raising Ross comes at the cost of vital exp for other early units. He just ends up being a second Garcia if you take him into Fighter - with the same speed issues as his dad. The Pirate > Berserker line produces good results. Water walking may be a dumb gimmick, but I've seen it used in LTCs even for ferrying Seth over rivers. He's also not in competition for Hero Crests on this class path.
6. FE7 The only noteworthy of these units is Geitz. Assuming I end up in that route, Geitz is my bow user of choice even without Hard Mode bonuses, because he can Brave Bow at base for consistent ORKOs, and then somebody else can trade swap him back to an axe for the upcoming enemy phase. As much as I have enjoyed Geitz in the past, Dorcas and Bartre drag him down for this ranking. I don't see what they contribute to FE7. Even the Paladins can eventually use any good axes you get later in the game.
7. FE6: Lot and Wade are not bad in terms of stats. And Marcus can't use the Halberd in time for Chapter 4. I just really think the Warrior is outclassed by the Berserkers. FE6's first half is all about deciding which of these mediocre units is worth investing exp into, and these two just aint it. I will say that if you went B route and got Bartre, he's pretty handy for shooting down wyverns in chapter 13. He'll pull the one shot with a steel bow and has enough bulk to sit there as others come and attack him on the following phase.
8. FE4 There's only one in this game. And choosing to recruit him comes at the direct cost of having a mounted axe unit in his place. And both units are disadvantaged because I'm pretty sure you don't have any way of passing down Lex's incredible axes to Gen 2. But assuming you do make the sub-optimal choice I guess this guy can cruise on high availability and the early acquired brave axe. He gets access to bows on promotion, which means a second choice of arena opponent, and the accost skill should help his arena climbs too. Even if this guy didn't come at the cost of his brother, I can't see him contributing much in a run.

I would say FE8 and 7 ultimately tie for the same placement. If I put these into Tiers, Three houses is alone in A, FE1 and 9 are in B, FE3, FE7, and 8 in C. FE4 in D.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I'm gonna rank these games, but for 3H, I'm considering Warrior, not War Master. That one, I'll talk about when we talk Berserkers.

1. Thracia 776. Even though I haven't beaten the game, I know Dagdar and Osian are just great here. And Halvan is no slouch, either. Lotta great Axes here, plus the Capture mechanic.

2. Shadow Dragon. Forged Hand Axes and Pole Axes are great, and Bows are decently handy in the Macedon arc. Barst is just a champ, even if he's arguably better in Hero.

3. Sacred Stones. Garcia and Ross can each do well in Warrior, even if it's not the best pick for either one. Still, there are a lot of low-quality lategame enemies with some combination of flight, lances, and 1-2 range.

4. Path of Radiance. Boyd probably has the best physical combat of any beorc infantry unit in the game. That's not saying much in "mount Emblem", but still, Axes are very solid here.

5. Radiant Dawn. Boyd isn't as good this time around, but to make up for it, we've got Nolan. Tarvos is a tower-worthy weapon, and even before that, he's your second-strongest early DB unit. Beastfoe Crossbow can be fun, too.

6. Awakening. Counter is just a devastating skill, even if it's usually more threatening in enemy hands than on the player's side. Still, a class you hate to see a bunch of.

7. FE7. Geitz is pretty cool, if you manage to recruit him. The Axebros aren't great, but they can still make for decent filler in the earlygame.

8. FE6. I haven't really made use of Bartre much, but he seems like he could be good. Better than his younger self. But Lot is just "decent", and Wade is... not good. Arguably worse than FE7 Axebros, due to higher enemy quality.

9. Three Houses. Fighter gives a great mastery skill, while Warrior provides Wrath (eventually). But as an endgame class, nobody really wants to use it. Even female Axe units would be better in Wyvern Lord or Great Knight.

10. Genealogy. Johalvier (Lucharba?) is the only one, and I don't think he's as bad as folks think. His high HP lets him take a Jormungandr hit in chapter 7, while the Brave Axe lets him one-round enemy Dark Mages. But there's only so far an infantry combat unit can get in FE4.

17 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

FE4 There's only one in this game. And choosing to recruit him comes at the direct cost of having a mounted axe unit in his place. And both units are disadvantaged because I'm pretty sure you don't have any way of passing down Lex's incredible axes to Gen 2. But assuming you do make the sub-optimal choice I guess this guy can cruise on high availability and the early acquired brave axe. He gets access to bows on promotion, which means a second choice of arena opponent, and the accost skill should help his arena climbs too. Even if this guy didn't come at the cost of his brother, I can't see him contributing much in a run.

This doesn't actually matter as much as you'd think. The Brave Axe is dropped by Schmidt in chapter 6, while the Hand Axe can be picked out from the Vendor in the very next chapter. So there, you've got the only two Axes that matter.

Wait, does Accost do anything in the Arena? My understanding of the skill is, it causes a second phase of combat (I hit you, you hit me). But that's already how the Arena works, so I don't see how the skill would have any effect.

[Punished Dayni]

Still thinking about the order myself, but I felt I had to add a comment on the record.

5 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

1. Thracia 776. Even though I haven't beaten the game, I know Dagdar and Osian are just great here. And Halvan is no slouch, either. Lotta great Axes here, plus the Capture mechanic.

Halvan and Osian promote into Mercenary, which is Thracia's Hero equivalent, but Marty is a good candidate for early promotion for a laugh because he gets pretty big boosts in Skl and Spd conbined with solid physical tanking and scrolls existing.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

21 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wait, does Accost do anything in the Arena? My understanding of the skill is, it causes a second phase of combat (I hit you, you hit me). But that's already how the Arena works, so I don't see how the skill would have any effect.

I got the names mixed up between translations and thought it was Adept. I remembered a skill called Continue which is a great name for Accost, but "Continue" ended up being called Adept in the Naga patch. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hmm, if we're separating Warrior and Berserker (which appears to be the case), then I definitely think War Master counts as a Berserker, not a Warrior. War Master doesn't have any sort of bow requirement/proficiency, which is a hallmark of the Warrior class, and does have a crit boost, which is frequently associated with Berserkers. Additionally, the fact that War Master is genderlocked and 3H Warrior isn't further suggests that the game thinks of them as different classlines, and I agree.

I'll give my own ranking later.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

26 minutes ago, Punished Dayni said:

Still thinking about the order myself, but I felt I had to add a comment on the record.

Halvan and Osian promote into Mercenary, which is Thracia's Hero equivalent, but Marty is a good candidate for early promotion for a laugh because he gets pretty big boosts in Skl and Spd conbined with solid physical tanking and scrolls existing.

That is true, but Halvan and Osian both start as Axe Infantry. So I wouldn't think it appropriate to count them in the "Mercenary/Hero" discussion.

As for Marty, I thought of him as more of a "Brigand"-type unit. Although, he does promote to Warrior, so I suppose he has a spot in this discussion. Obviously, Thracia came before stuff like the "Myrmidon/Mercenary split", or the "Berserker/Warrior split". Elements introduced in FE6, and retained in most subsequent games (even the Archanea remakes). So it's hard to tell who belongs where, exactly.

14 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I got the names mixed up between translations and thought it was Adept. I remembered a skill called Continue which is a great name for Accost, but "Continue" ended up being called Adept in the Naga patch. 

Oh, interesting. Yeah, Adept would be a decent boon in the Arena, even if it wouldn't activate very often for him. And I don't believe it can "stack" with the Brave effect...

7 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Hmm, if we're separating Warrior and Berserker (which appears to be the case), then I definitely think War Master counts as a Berserker, not a Warrior. War Master doesn't have any sort of bow requirement/proficiency, which is a hallmark of the Warrior class, and does have a crit boost, which is frequently associated with Berserkers. Additionally, the fact that War Master is genderlocked and 3H Warrior isn't further suggests that the game thinks of them as different classlines, and I agree.

I'll give my own ranking later.

Honestly, there's a decent case that 3H's "Warrior" class should've been "Berserker" instead. It's a mono-Axe class with a Crit boost that teaches Wrath (a skill learned by Berserkers in Awakening). And it's gender-neutral, just as Berserker was in Fates. There's no traditional "Axes and Bows infantry" class in 3H.

...Although, in the context of both Warrior and War Master existing, I'd say the latter is more "Berserker-like". It gives a larger crit boost, and it's more mobile. Plus, it's not named "Warrior".

[SnowFire]

I'll echo others and say I definitely don't see War Master as the Warrior equivalent, especially because 3H has this idea where the Advanced Classes are also "endgame" classes and the Master classes are mostly just "other endgame classes that require an extra 10 levels to qualify for" with the exception of Wyvern Knight / Wyvern Master which really is a no-questions-asked class upgrade line.  (Although really it should have been "make Wyvern Knight available at Intermediate like Peg Knight" but I digress.)

 

Engage: Very good.  People generally hype up Hero & Warrior as the default best Backup units; Warrior's chain attacks can be at a nice long range thanks to Hand Axe / Longbow, bow access is very solid (enemy fliers are scary enough that killing them efficiently is much appreciated), axes aren't bad due to the nature of forging + engraving meaning you won't be stuck with something too heavy or inaccurate.  Relevant passive for smashing tanky but broken units.

(3H Brigand if seen as equivalent to Fighter): Intermediate classes don't really differ that much from each other in 3H other than whether they have magic access, their Move scores, and what skill they teach.  Brigand teaches Death Blow which is way, way overtuned, and thus is good.

-- (GAP)

FE9: Boyd is considered pretty good despite the game being Horse/Flier Emblem.  On Maniac mode, he actually has the offense to get some one-rounds that other characters can't, because enemies are annoyingly tanky there.  FE9 liking Axes with forging removing their usual drawback helps too.

FE10: Reaver's speed cap is 35, meaning Nolan & Boyd can get some of the crucial doubles off in endgame.  Pretty good otherwise, no mount but axes are still strong.

-- (GAP)

FE7/FE8: They're usable but nothing special.  (Although I would personally argue that Hero is probably a better promotion in FE8.) Geitz is good if you get him, which most players probably didn't.

FE6: See above, but slightly worse because axes are kinda trashy in FE6.

FE12???: I am not an FE12 expert, but my recollection is that most of the units that start in the Fighter / Warrior line are not very good, but the nature of the game means you can reclass anyone over there, or have Kris / MU be one. The game is so player-phase focused on the higher difficulty levels that "why not just use an Archer / Sniper" is an issue, though, compromising the alleged tanking role some.

Awakening: Counter is a way better skill on enemies than it is on PCs.  Vaike / Basilio can be okay at murdering fliers with bows Virion-style, but Awakening is a game that is pretty enemy-phase focused unless you deeply know your reinforcement timings, and unlike FE12 Warrior isn't necessarily even much better at enemy phase compared to mega-tank dragons or Nosferatu drain-tanks.

-- (GAP)

3H Warrior: Wrath is good for Vantage / Wrath builds.  Axes are good so Warrior is better than Hero or Swordmaster, but this could just be a dismounted Wyvern Rider or Wyvern Lord instead if you just want an Axefaire unit.  In theory,  Warrior is easier to qualify for, but the skill learning & qualification algorithms are sufficiently wonky that this doesn't really mean much because WR is so easy to qualify for.

--

I don't know Shadow Dragon well enough to rate it there - don't think I ever considered running one.  Can't say about FE4/FE5.

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

2. Shadow Dragon. Forged Hand Axes and Pole Axes are great, and Bows are decently handy in the Macedon arc. Barst is just a champ, even if he's arguably better in Hero.

Bold: And that's the problem with Warrior in the DS games. It's just outclassed by many other classes; want an axe user? Berserker and Hero are there, and there's Dracoknight too. Want bows? Sniper and Horseman are better for that.

 

 

Anyways, I'd say...

• I said that Fighter and Warrior were D in the GBA games as a whole, but as for Binding Blade, I'd rather give them an E instead. Axes are too inaccurate, and none of the units you get in those classes are very good (and even if they didn't suck, Hero Crests are contested). I've seen some praise for Bartre, but then I ask this: Is he good enough to justify going through harder maps, passing up a better unit, AND missing out on the first shop that sells killer axes (with the other three not coming until lategame)? In my book, the answer is, to quote Basilio, HELL NO!
• They're also E in Holy War. It's bad enough the one Fighter you can get is foot locked in THE Horse Emblem game, but axes, except for the brave axe, are just awful in Holy War due to massive weight. The one Fighter you get being mutually exclusive with a mounted unit doesn't help matters either.
• They're C in Awakening. They aren't bad, per se, but they don't stand out either.
• They're D in Three Houses. Much like Hero, they have nothing to make them stand out.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[samthedigital]

46 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I said that Fighter and Warrior were D in the GBA games as a whole, but as for Binding Blade, I'd rather give them an E instead. Axes are too inaccurate, and none of the units you get in those classes are very good. I've seen some praise for Bartre, but then I ask this: Is he good enough to justify going through harder maps, passing up a better unit, AND missing out on the first shop that sells killer axes (with the other three not coming until lategame)? In my book, the answer is, to quote Basilio, HELL NO!

I'm not really a fan of factoring opportunity cost when it comes to character recruitment, but...

If we assume that it's worse to go to B route (and it's debatable unlike the Geitz recruitment condition, but that's not really relevant to my point) and that getting Geitz is worse than the alternative then it's effectively Lot vs. Bartre and Dorcas which isn't strongly favoring FE6 or 7.

[Shadow Mir]

On 3/10/2023 at 7:23 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I'm not certain where axe users fall in Book 2's viability because I haven't met one yet.

Spoiler alert: There's a reason why Silver Axes sell for such a high price...

18 hours ago, samthedigital said:

I'm not really a fan of factoring opportunity cost when it comes to character recruitment, but...

If we assume that it's worse to go to B route (and it's debatable unlike the Geitz recruitment condition, but that's not really relevant to my point) and that getting Geitz is worse than the alternative then it's effectively Lot vs. Bartre and Dorcas which isn't strongly favoring FE6 or 7.

Understandable. But imho, for how much I'd have to give up to get him, I'd think Bartre would have SOMETHING going for him that justifies making the game harder on myself. . .

[Whisky]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:04 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Hmm, if we're separating Warrior and Berserker (which appears to be the case), then I definitely think War Master counts as a Berserker, not a Warrior. War Master doesn't have any sort of bow requirement/proficiency, which is a hallmark of the Warrior class, and does have a crit boost, which is frequently associated with Berserkers. Additionally, the fact that War Master is genderlocked and 3H Warrior isn't further suggests that the game thinks of them as different classlines, and I agree.

I'll give my own ranking later.

That’s a fair point. Actually I think both Warrior and WatMaster in 3H are more like Berserkers from previous games. Despite being called ‘Warrior’ since in this game they have a 10% Crit bonus (with Axes) and don’t have any bonus with Bows. WarMaster is a an upgrade to Warrior aside from being gender locked, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a direct upgrade, it just means that females don’t get the upgrade.

 

[samthedigital]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Understandable. But imho, for how much I'd have to give up to get him, I'd think Bartre would have SOMETHING going for him that justifies making the game harder on myself. . .

If you temper your expectations somewhat he's really not that bad. If you want to directly compare him to Echidna he trades doubling and swords for bows, bulk, A rank axes, and the highest base strength stat in the game. Echinda is still likely better, but they're trading utility rather than Echidna being a direct upgrade. I can't speak to your other grievances about the route split; difficulty is somewhat subjective, and I like to save my money before getting the silver card.

edit: I want to spend a bit of time to talk about axes and Bartre in FE6. I wouldn't say that axes are good, but they definitely have their place given the amount of lances in the game. That helps Bartre out because he can reach S rank axes before anyone else while also requiring less time and resources (and axe swings if you really hate axes). It's not an amazing niche, but it's still something, and for GBA (and PoR) FE we're talking about units with mostly filler utility roles anyway.

Edited March 13, 2023 by samthedigital

[Whisky]

Bartre isn’t a monster like Geitz but he does have some appealing qualities, and his opportunity costs aren’t nearly as high as Geitz.

Bartre is pretty bulky and has high Str. He can deal massive damage to Wyverns with a Steel Bow and even one shot a few of them at base. He is arguably the best user of Armads since he starts at A rank Axes and Lott/Wade have the too much opportunity cost to be worth promoting. (Geese and Gonzales too).

As for how how good the Warrior class itself is for them. Bartre would lose some useful things in other classes. Having an accurate ranged option is nice especially when it gets 3x Mt against Wyverns. Obviously there would be advantages for him to be a Paladin but there would also be disadvantages. I think classes in general are more balanced in FE6 than in most FEs. Geitz would undoubtedly be much better as a mounted class or probably a magic class. Warrior isn’t too bad for him though. The high Str lets him 1RKO Wyverns with a Hand Axe which is a very impressive feat, and something he’d have a harder time doing in most other classes. Hero would probably just result in overkill Spd making it worse overall. So Warrior might be somewhere around the middle for both units?

But Geitz is one of the only units with high enough stats to pull that off. Warrior is a bad class for Dorcas and Bartre because they’re slow and would really benefit from more Spd.

But, I’m confused about something. SerenesForest says that Warrior’s have a higher base Spd than Fighters in FE7, but Fighters don’t gain any Spd when the promote, so how does that work?

[AnonymousSpeed]

43 minutes ago, Whisky said:

But, I’m confused about something. SerenesForest says that Warrior’s have a higher base Spd than Fighters in FE7, but Fighters don’t gain any Spd when the promote, so how does that work?

Promotion gains aren't tied to class bases in FE7, unlike in FE6 or how I presume Fates works.

[Whisky]

19 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Promotion gains aren't tied to class bases in FE7, unlike in FE6 or how I presume Fates works.

So do Dorcas and Bartre get Fighter bases plus the promotion bonuses, and does Geitz get the listed Warrior bases since he starts in that class? So Dorcas’ Warrior is different from Geitz’s Warrior?

I think randomizers are the only way any of this has any relevance, but I am curious about it. 

[Wuzzy]

Going in order...

Engage: Easily the best showing of the Warrior class. Backup is incredibly good and scales very well, and Warriors having access to Longbows for longer range backups (even longer with Wind God) is very good. Bow access is also very nice considering enemy fliers can be pretty threatening and Merciless is also a decent class skill. I'd probably rank this at A-tier

Thracia 776: Dagdar is very solid overall with his bases + Charge. Orsin and Halvan are both good as well (obviously both promote to Hero so I'm judging them solely on their performance as Fighters), wtih Orsin having a incredibly good personal weapon. Marty is a meme but, he's still useful because he can capture/rescue units with ease due to his high Build. I would say this showing hovers around B-tier, could also make an argument for A-tier

Radiant Dawn: Boyd is pretty mediocre overall (honestly overrated) due to his shaky base SpD while Nolan is honestly pretty great and is easily one of the better investments for the Dawn Brigade. If properly trained, Reavers are great tower candidates since they have a cap of 35 Spd which enables them to double endgame enemies like Halberdiers and Snipers if the cap is reached. Nolan also has the added benefit of not having competition for Urvan and the Brave Axe since he has Tarvos, which is better than Urvan anyways. I'd say this is a solid B-tier showing.

Path of Radiance: Boyd is the best infantry unit and his combat pretty solid overall with 1-2 range + FE9's poor enemy quality but, he has issues because FE9 is another mounted emblem with Canto being busted and maps being quite large overall. I'd probably say this is still a B-tier showing despite it but, I'm also leaning closer towards C-tier because mounted emblem is just that good.

3H: Honestly, kind of weird since I think Brigand is very good mainly since it's the only way to get Death Blow which is very good and pretty much most physical characters will want it (with some exceptions like Dimitri since he's predominantly an enemy phase unit and maybe Bernedetta since she wants to stay as a Cavalier to abuse Pass). By the time you master Death Blow, your unit will either by switching to Archer for Hit+20 or promoting to advanced classes. Brigand is also one of the ways to rank up the Axe rank faster for Wyvern Rider promotion since it does get more Weapon Rank XP for using axes in combat. Besides Wrath (which is unnecessary for some units since they will probably use the easier-to-get Battalion Wrath), Warriors is a pretty poor class since they don't really stand out and anyone who plans on going Warmaster is better off going through Grappler for FIF. 3H imo ranks C-tier but that's predominantly because of Brigand.

Awakening: Like other games, Berserker and Hero are straight up better classes than Warrior but, even then I don't think Warrior is that bad overall. Rally STR is good, Counter is only oppressive on enemies but pretty sad on the player. Bow access I'd say is pretty decent as enemy fliers are actually quite good in this game so having a way to deal with them does give them something over their competition. I'd rank this showing in either C-tier as well. 

Shadow Dragon / New Mystery: Honestly, I'm not 100% confident in my opinions of these games but... I do think Berserkers and Heroes are still a lot better since Berserkers can walk on water + higher SpD cap and Heroes will have access to Wyrmslayers. Fighters seem alright since it's a pretty solid transition into Dracoknight for male units (Male Kris, Draug, Barst, etc.). I'd probably rank it in C-tier but like 3H, that's mainly due to Fighter.

Sacred Stones: Ross and Garcia would rather go to Berserker or Hero but, because FE8 is also a pretty easy game they could easily go Warrior and still do well in them. I'd rank it in C/D-tier (leaning closer towards C imo)

Blazing Blade: Axe bros are fine early but they don't scale very well. Geitz is incredible but the cost of using him is not worth it and, FE7 provides you with multiple very good prepromotes anyways. This showing ranks in D-tier.

Binding Blade: Another poor showing, Lot is eh, Bartre I've never really used since Echidna is better (the maps on his route are also a lot more annoying) and Wade is bad. Axes also have very poor hit rates in the game and are quite unreliable overall. Bow access also doesn't really matter since enemy fliers are very easy to deal with since almost all of them are weighed down by their weapons. This ranks in E-tier.

Genealogy: The worst showing of the game. Johalvier is pretty awful in a game dominated by mounted units and he has an opportunity cost where his brother Johan is better since he's mounted (honestly Johan is also pretty awful as well, better doesn't always mean good). If you want to make use of the Brave Axe in Gen 2, Leif is a fantastic candidate for it. No contest, this ranks F-tier 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Wuzzy

[Shadow Mir]

On 3/12/2023 at 7:22 PM, Whisky said:

But, I’m confused about something. SerenesForest says that Warrior’s have a higher base Spd than Fighters in FE7, but Fighters don’t gain any Spd when the promote, so how does that work?

For whatever reason, promotion gains in that game, and maybe a few others, are not the difference between the old class's base stats and the bases of the new class. 

On 3/12/2023 at 4:35 PM, samthedigital said:

If you temper your expectations somewhat he's really not that bad. If you want to directly compare him to Echidna he trades doubling and swords for bows, bulk, A rank axes, and the highest base strength stat in the game. Echinda is still likely better, but they're trading utility rather than Echidna being a direct upgrade. I can't speak to your other grievances about the route split; difficulty is somewhat subjective, and I like to save my money before getting the silver card.

edit: I want to spend a bit of time to talk about axes and Bartre in FE6. I wouldn't say that axes are good, but they definitely have their place given the amount of laon the EChdna nces in the game. That helps Bartre out because he can reach S rank axes before anyone else while also requiring less time and resources (and axe swings if you really hate axes). It's not an amazing niche, but it's still something, and for GBA (and PoR) FE we're talking about units with mostly filler utility roles anyway.

Must be nice to see the positive in everything. That part of me fell asleep permanently ages ago. 

Real talk: I don't value high strength when you don't bring much else to the table. That's precisely why I dislike most foot axes; they're overspecialized, dump statting everything else for raw power and HP, which doesn't help when their offense is easily outstripped because they only attack once most of the time, any attack does massive damage to them, and they struggle to dodge a snail on depressants. Trading utility would hold water were it not a case where it's painfully obvious which is better. On top of all this, there's the matter of his maps arguably being worse than her maps, as both of his maps suck hardcore, whereas only one map on the Echidna route is a pain in the arse. All of this combines to make recruiting, let alone using, Bartre a *VERY* hard sell. That said, I wouldn't splurge in chapter 11 or something, but not having access to one of the few good axes for a long time really doesn't help matters.

On 3/12/2023 at 7:22 PM, Whisky said:

Bartre isn’t a monster like Geitz but he does have some appealing qualities, and his opportunity costs aren’t nearly as high as Geitz.

Disagree. I'd argue his opportunity costs are HIGHER thanks to forcing me to play a harder route overall, and thus making the game harder on myself.

On 3/12/2023 at 7:22 PM, Whisky said:

Bartre is pretty bulky and has high Str. He can deal massive damage to Wyverns with a Steel Bow and even one shot a few of them at base. He is arguably the best user of Armads since he starts at A rank Axes and Lott/Wade have the too much opportunity cost to be worth promoting. (Geese and Gonzales too).

This can be said of just about any fighter unit. Problem is, that didn't take them far when a lot of the time, their other stats tended to be mediocre to shit, and it sure as hell ain't taking Bartre far either.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[samthedigital]

51 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Real talk: I don't value high strength when you don't bring much else to the table. That's precisely why I dislike most foot axes; they're overspecialized, dump statting everything else for raw power and HP, which doesn't help when their offense is easily outstripped because they only attack once most of the time, any attack does massive damage to them, and they struggle to dodge a snail on depressants. Trading utility would hold water were it not a case where it's painfully obvious which is better.

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if units didn't tend to be more specialized in FE6. Echindna doesn't really outlive her bases and has no long term prospects, so the choice between the two characters isn't that impactful.

Quote

That said, I wouldn't splurge in chapter 11 or something, but not having access to one of the few good axes for a long time really doesn't help matters.

Spending more than necessary means less access to boots, so I prefer to wait until I can spend money safely. Bartre can also eventually get to Armads if you're looking for a good axe.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Disagree. I'd argue his opportunity costs are HIGHER thanks to forcing me to play a harder route overall, and thus making the game harder on myself.

Being forced to use (and deploy in a game with limited deployment slots) Lyn and Eliwood isn't making the game harder on yourself? You'd probably also want to both play Lyn mode and snowball Kent/Sain/Florina less.

[Whisky]

15 hours ago, Wuzzy said:

Bow access also doesn't really matter since enemy fliers are very easy to deal with since almost all of them are weighed down by their weapons. This ranks in E-tier.

I don't understand what you mean here. Wyverns are the most dangerous enemies in that game. Anything that helps taking them down is useful. That's basically why Klein is good. I think Bow access in FE6 is much more useful than in FE7. I also don't think most Wyvern do weigh themselves down. Only the ones that use Steel Lances, but they're still not easy to kill.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Disagree. I'd argue his opportunity costs are HIGHER thanks to forcing me to play a harder route overall, and thus making the game harder on myself.

I think deploying and training both Eliwood and Lyn make the game more harder on yourself than the two chapters of going Bartre's route. Those two chapters aren't that bad. If we're factoring in recruitment costs then I don't see how Geitz is winning this. If we ignore recruitment costs and just look at how good the unit in question is, then Geitz is really good.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Whisky

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Whisky said:

If we ignore recruitment costs and just look at how good the unit in question is, then Geitz is really good.

He's a good unit certainly, but he's not mounted and his stats aren't overwhelming to the point that he can perform much better than his mounted peers. I would rate him more highly than the other GBA offerings if we're not factoring opportunity cost to be sure, but it's not so much of a difference that it would shift the warrior rankings much in my opinion.

The other problem is that his recruitment makes things complicated... In a vacuum his stats are great, but we have to evaluate his combat in a game state where other units have seen more combat because of the time it took to get him, and I'm not sure exactly what that would look like since I haven't gotten Geitz outside of ranked runs. Even then there's also the idea of training Lyn in Crazed Beast.

[Eltosian Kadath]

Time for another useful graphic for how I feel these roughly align, with a few thoughts below on the games individually. I will note that I feel the tiers are right, but would need more time to really order them within each tier. Also I am not using exactly the same metric for all of these, and I will start with comparisons to the Sword Master tiers, as that is what I started with, and note some key similarities to other class's tiers. In this case the Warrior B tier is more between the B tier and C tier of Sword Master, and a bit below Berserker's B rank overall, and Warrior's C rank is between Sword Master's C and D rank, roughly on par with Berserker's C rank overall.

 

A Tier: A good class in this game

Engage: The other backup class I actually thought about using, as longbow chain attacks are surprisingly useful to have around. No where near as good as Hero, but a class I considered good enough to class change someone to.

 

B Tier:  Some are OK

Thracia 776: This is a massive split, from one of the worst units, Marty, to one of the best basic combat units in Dagdar. Honestly, this is probably a little high for a physical attacking unit in thracia, but this is one of the lowest B tier I have had, and Dagdar is really good for when you have him, and Charge (or whatever name for the skill is in vogue at the moment) is kinda useful for burning through Ballistae.

Radiant Dawn: Again we have a bit of a range here, with the thoroughly mediocre Boyd, to one of the better Dawn Brigade unit to bother training in Nolan. Now Nolan probably isn't going to make the cut for the tower, but he is a unit good enough to be worth investing in on the hardest army so he helps to drag this into the

Shadow Dragon: This time the split is a bit different, as Fighter is the best base class to work on your Axe rank with, were as Warrior is a bit underwhelming. Admittedly its base stats are better than Berserker, and having effective Bows on top of effective Axes is a nice combination sometimes, but its really the work that Fighter does that has brought this into this low B tier.

Binding Blade It is bow access that helps to pull this version out of D tier, as Bow access is rather useful in this game. Admittedly like half the Fighter/Warriors are garbage even with this boon, but you can get some uses out of the ones that aren't thanks to them getting bows. Honestly, I have gone back and forth a bit here on whether it should be C or B, but this is a low B tier, and I did give Berserker the benefit of the doubt with a C of its own, and bow access would definitely be a tier above that.

 

C Tier: A Class that isn't useless, and might have some niche uses

New Mystery of the Emblem: Alas New Mystery fixed Pirate/Berserker's embarrassing bases, which tanks Fighter's niche as the best axe base class, and makes it so much worse by comparison. Although I find Bow access to be more useful in New Mystery, and the Axey Boys get a triangle attack, which can be used to one shot Lang at base even on Lunatic Reverse, so it does have some niche uses

Path of Radiance:  Boyd has the issue of being in pony land, but at least he comes early, and can theoretically be useful throughout the game.

Three Houses: It is a nice class to pass through for some mastery skills, but this isn't a class you really want to stay in.

 

D Tier: One of the worst classes in this game

Awakening: Counter is only good in the enemy hands, and this class doesn't add much better to the than that.

Sacred Stones: Its basically the worst promotion option for everyone that has it, and even poor Garcia stuck in its base class, he isn't particularly good in it.

Blazing Blade: They are all pretty bad. Geitz at least starts promoted, but pales in comparison to all the amazingly good prepromotes that join around the same time.

Genealogy of the Holy War: Axes are really bad in this game, and the only Fighter/Warrior in the game gets nothing that would make him good in Genealogy.