Marth's father in law got a name after 27 years, and other extra curricular lore

[Jotari]

This is King Mostyn

He's friends with Lorenz, forged his own Kingdom as a self made man, sired Shiida and was the one guy there for Marth in his darkest hour. So a pretty cool dude overall, even if he's a big generic and forgettable. But what I find really interesting about him is that he is a character that is over thirty years old, being in the first chapter of the first Fire Emblem game released, but it took 27 years for his name to actually appear in a video game. Scour the text of any game set in Archanea and you will find no reference to his name. On NES, SNES or DS he is simply just the King of Talys. It wasn't until 2017 that his name actually appears in a video game. That being an off hand comment by Marth in a Fire Emblem Warriors support. Yet if you take a gander over at the Fire Emblem wiki you will see that the page for King Mostyn was made by an anonymous editor in 2009

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Mostyn?oldid=47773

So, uh, what gives? Did the Warriors staff read the English wiki and took his name fro there? As hilarious as that would be, the answer is no. On the modern page for the wiki it says he was referred to as such in "supplementary materials", without saying where. Fire Embelm Treasure? Fire Emblem Complete? Eh, it's probably something, great job there wiki. I don't have any reference to those guide books, so I decided to watch the Fire Emblem OVA again, and much like the games, the character is only ever refereed to as the King or Talis, or as father in the case of Shieda, despite having a moderately large role in the episode. But then the credits rolled

And right there between Gazzak and Cornelius is the name Mostyn...not sure how you can tell which character that is unless you're super familiar Masaki Tsukada, but there you go, Shiida's father had a name in the very first English translation of a Fire Emblem product. And rather hilariously, one of the few names from the OVA that hasn't changed its spelling since 1996 (which is impressive as it doesn't sound like a name that can be rendered easily from Japanese phonics at all). Good job anonymous wiki user from 2009 who created the Mostyn page.

So what am I getting at here? What happened? Well it's plain to see that this character has always had a name, or at least he has had one since 1996, and for some reason it just never appeared in any of the video games. Yet they pulled it out finally in 2017 and put it in Warriors in the middle of a support that isn't focused on the character at all. Clearly his name is on some internal document in Nintendo's hands and the warriors writers just pulled from that rather than playing Shadow Dragon and seeing him as an unnamed character. The line in question in Warriors is "If anything happened to you, I wouldn't be able to face King Mostyn." Marth very easily could have said "Your father" (as he's talking to Shiida) and the conversation would actually have flowed a tiny little bit better. You can tell from context he means her father, but saying his name wasn't actually necessary. But someone looked up that information and found it existing somewhere in internal files (or they read the fan books released a decade earlier, if his name really is in something like Fire Emblem Complete, if anyone has those books please check for me).

It gets me thinking, what information and lore about these settings do the people working on it have that we don't? Mostyn was not a hidden thing before 2017, but it wasn't exactly obvious. As I said, even in the anime where his name does exist, it's never said aloud. We have other examples of stuff like this happening. Take a look at the Unused Content article on Serenes and you'll see in the Mystery of the Emblem section there's something about unused classes. An armoured unit called Guardian and a manakete called Sea Dragon are unused content in Mystery of the Emblem. 23 years later these classes appeared in Shadows of Valenta. Guardians are a type of fiend who are indeed armoured, and while I don't know if the term used is identical, Shadows of Valentia introduced Dagons as a sea variation of the dragons in Archanea. We were not meant to know about these two classes, yet they did eventually appear in the series (there's also a Dark Knight class in Old Mystery but that was already sort of a thing in terms of lore in Archanea and there's no strong reason to believe the eventual classes we got called Dark Knight have any real connection). You can also read some notes in interviews about Genealogy of the Holy War and see that they had ideas for something very similar to battalions way back then. And this is the information that we just happened to discover or be informed about. Think about how much preplanning from this series that has been utilized, thrown away, recycled and later implemented, or has yet to do so. Could we see the two countries in the north of Archanea only ever shown on the OVA's intro map some day? Probably not, but why were there two countries on the OVA map that are missing from the games? Was an anime artist just going an extra mile or had they been given design specifications by IS that had details about Jdyad and Adeecde? Are there notes about these two lands, information that we aren't privy too? Or are their names literally all that exists? It's just something I find really interesting. There is literally more to these settings than what we ever get to see as public consumers, and said information could resurface at any time or could be left hidden away from us in internal documents forever. I find it kind of fascinating to think about.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I wonder if "Muston", the armorer in the Tellius games, was named as much as a sly reference to "Mostyn"? They have essentially the same name (just different vowel sounds), and similar facial hair. They're also easily-forgettable characters who nonetheless have a major role in the main hero's quest. Marth relied on Mostyn for safe harbor from Gra, and Ike relied on Muston for continued access to affordable weaponry and tomes.

[Polinym]

I was about to come on here and say something like "not Kaga, not canon", but then you went and pulled out that FE anime... ...guess his name's now officially King Mostyn. That's awesome!

[AnonymousSpeed]

I feel like some ancient treasure for forgotten proto-Indo-European root word has been uncovered. Good job, adventurer.

I mean, it's possible the Warriors writers did just take it off the wiki, though. Pretty sure that's what the Heroes writers do.

Edited July 1, 2023 by AnonymousSpeed

[Saint Rubenio]

And yet the king of Aurelis is still known only as King Aurelis despite the fact that he has a bigger plot presence by giving Marth a ball in the sequel. Too bad the OVA didn't make it far enough to give him a name. Or, y'know, cover more stuff than just the first two chapters.

[Acacia Sgt]

15 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Or, y'know, cover more stuff than just the first two chapters.

Three actually. Chapter 2 gets mostly glossed over. The anime ends right as they're entering Aurelis.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

And yet the king of Aurelis is still known only as King Aurelis despite the fact that he has a bigger plot presence by giving Marth a ball in the sequel. Too bad the OVA didn't make it far enough to give him a name. Or, y'know, cover more stuff than just the first two chapters.

Maybe as far as IS is concerned he does have a name and we just haven't ever seen it yet.

[King Marth 64]

Well technically the Archanea games haven't mentioned Caeda's father's name for so long. (I think the non-games content like the data books, manga, and the anime had Caeda's father's name was given the name as King Mostyn) I know Fire Emblem Warriors was technically the first game in the entire series that King Mostyn's name was finally mentioned for so long. (I do remember that it was in Marth's and Caeda's support conversation when Marth brought up Caeda's father's name when he was talking to Caeda.)

Edited July 2, 2023 by King Marth 64

[Zapp Branniglenn]

What I wanna know is: Why Talys to begin with? Was it a vacation spot for Marth's family? Was it their tax haven? Is it a commonly understood "this is where you go when you're on the run" sort of region and that also explains the pirate invasion?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

Well technically the Archanea games haven't mentioned Caeda's father's name for so long. (I think the non-games content like the data books, manga, and the anime had Caeda's father's name was given the name as King Mostyn) I know Fire Emblem Warriors was technically the first game in the entire series that King Mostyn's name was finally mentioned for so long. (I do remember that it was in Marth's and Caeda's support conversation when Marth brought up Caeda's father's name when he was talking to Caeda.)

I'm not sure what new information you're trying to provide here, but your mention of the manga has spurred me to go and read it. Or at least the 12 volume one available on Serenes. There are, I'm sure, several different Mangas about Marth (and I would like now to read them all and see how all this lore evolved over time).

These are my general feelings so far.

*Cornelius is a bit of a dick just like in the OVA, though he gets to save Marth personally from Gharnef as Marth is on the front lines for the battle of Menedy River.

*Ogma says that Marth is related to the King of Talys. But Ogma also doesn't know Marth is Prince of Altea, so that might be a lie. Still, the notion Mostyn and Cornelius share some family connection isn't that absurd.

*Gazzak has a lot less generic motivations than every other version, where he's just "Gar I'm a pirate." In the manga he wants to sell Talyis out to Medeus because he sees the conquering of Talyis as inevitable and would rather be in Medeus's good books. To quote him "We care about our lives too." He's also a lot sexier in this version (I mean, he's not erotic, he's just a pretty boy where everywhere else he's always a generic thug).

*Shiida's mother gets to have some lines, which I don't think we ever see in any other version. There is a second in the OVA where Marth stares at a picture that might be her, but it never gets any development.

*For Marth Embarks, at the very least, they give explicit numbers that there are 60 pirates and 20 fighting for Marth (Ogma, and presumably his axe boys, are here too a little earlier than in the games). These are small numbers for a conflict similar to the numbers given in Kaga's short story about the fall of Leinster. Of course, Gazzak's actions in Talys is a smaller conflict than most chapters in the game, but still, I kind of hope these small numbers remain as I actually like the idea that these conflicts that are monumentally important for the people involved aren't actually that big when taken into the wider scope of the world.

*And I've finished the plotline in Talyis. So on the topic of this thread King Mostyn's name is.....not said at all in the manga. Just like the games it's just the King of Talis or your majesty or father.

3 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

What I wanna know is: Why Talys to begin with? Was it a vacation spot for Marth's family? Was it their tax haven? Is it a commonly understood "this is where you go when you're on the run" sort of region and that also explains the pirate invasion?

 

I guess the answer is "Where else could he go"...and the answer to that is Aurelis...He could have gone right to Aurelis and joined Hardin's fight two years earlier. It's not like it should seriously be more difficult to get to than Talys, which involves sailing around the entirety of recently fallen Archanea.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Jotari

[Polinym]

So here's the real important question. Is Mostyn... his first name, or his last name?
Cornelius's last name should be Lowell, and he's listed under his first name here. So Mostyn is a first name too?

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Polinym said:

So here's the real important question. Is Mostyn... his first name, or his last name?
Cornelius's last name should be Lowell, and he's listed under his first name here. So Mostyn is a first name too?

I'm assuming so...but if it isn't, then that would make Shiida's full name Shiida Mostyn (or Caeda Mostyn if you like silly spelling).

[Acacia Sgt]

4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

What I wanna know is: Why Talys to begin with? Was it a vacation spot for Marth's family? Was it their tax haven? Is it a commonly understood "this is where you go when you're on the run" sort of region and that also explains the pirate invasion?

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I guess the answer is "Where else could he go"...and the answer to that is Aurelis...He could have gone right to Aurelis and joined Hardin's fight two years earlier. It's not like it should seriously be more difficult to get to than Talys, which involves sailing around the entirety of recently fallen Archanea.

The latest statement about it, as shown in the Shadow Dragon prologue, is that Cornelius and Mostyn are old friends, so it was long decided that should anything happen to Altea, Talys would be where Marth should take refuge on. While never stated anywhere, I'd assume the inverse would prove true as well. As in, should anything happen to Talys, Caeda would head for Altea.

Not to mention, the idea was to keep him safe, so with Aurelis next on the chopping block, it was counted out. Or just never considered, since Talys was already decided upon.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Hanes]

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

I guess the answer is "Where else could he go"...and the answer to that is Aurelis...He could have gone right to Aurelis and joined Hardin's fight two years earlier. It's not like it should seriously be more difficult to get to than Talys, which involves sailing around the entirety of recently fallen Archanea.

I'm pretty sure it's because Marth was a young boy and not someone who would go to war, or should take refuge in an army that is at war too.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

19 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

While never stated anywhere, I'd assume the inverse would prove true as well. As in, should anything happen to Talys, Caeda would head for Altea.

Ooh, fun premise for an AU. Where Caeda is the one exiled, who then trains to retake her homeland.

20 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not to mention, the idea was to keep him safe, so with Aurelis next on the chopping block, it was counted out. Or just never considered, since Talys was already decided upon.

The fact that Talys was small, and relatively defenseless, may have helped Marth after all. What King would be foolish enough to send his son there? No need to conquer and investigate it.

[Acacia Sgt]

22 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ooh, fun premise for an AU. Where Caeda is the one exiled, who then trains to retake her homeland.

The fact that Talys was small, and relatively defenseless, may have helped Marth after all. What King would be foolish enough to send his son there? No need to conquer and investigate it.

Mhm. In addition, Talys is remote to the perspective of Dohlr-Grust-Macedon. Hence why it's Aurelis under siege for two years, as the largest resistance remaining. Though with Aurelis almost capitulating and Grust sending scouts to Galder Port, it was likely only a matter of time before Talys too would come under attack.

Hmm, it'd be an interesting AU, but circumstances would have to be very very different. For Altea to be ignored while Talys comes under attack. Might even need to be a different war altogether. Specially since there's nothing much close to Talys, unlike Altea which is effectively surrounded. Unless we had Mannu in a Medeus-like role of subjugating humanity (alternatively, Medeus takes over Pyrathi), or expansionist-imperial Archanea ahead of schedule...

Edited July 3, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

 Might even need to be a different war altogether. 

Jugdral invades from the east with their newly revived dark god!

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Jugdral invades from the east with their newly revived dark god!

That could be another option.

Also the people from Anri's Way might decide to head south and invade too. Talys is almost directly south from the Ice Dragon Temple area, after all. A surprise blitz could easily see Galder and Talys fall.

[Jotari]

Another point to support my "hidden lore in development notes" is Catria and Est's support. Support singular that is. Despite Fire Emblem having multiple games for many settings, Fire Emblem doesn't have many examples of the same two characters being able to support in more than one game. Three Hopes, Fates Awakening Trio and the White Wings are the exceptions (I don't think any of the Elibe character pairs support in more than one game). And a curious thing about the Palla and Est support is that it's almost identical in both New Mystery and Shadows of Valentia. Both revolve around Est incessantly giving presents to Catria. Is that the developers being lazy? Probably not, to be honest. Because the support wasn't just copy and pasted, it's a different set of presents and a slightly different conversation. And if they were willing to be that lazy why not do it with all three of the white wing supports? Was it then a reference to New Mystery's support system? Maybe, but it's a rather weird way to reference it. If referencing New Mystery was their intention, then why not have a support about the Angel Ring Est winds up giving Minerva, or do something with the locket Palla is revealed to have? Why a general habit of random gift giving? Well I think because there was no direct connection between the two supports. There's character notes for these people and one of them says "Est likes to give Catria presents" and then two different writers who were charged with making supports read that same note and ended up unintentionally creating the same support.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

You know, I just got reminded. While the OVA is indeed the first time Mostyn's name was publicly shown, him having that name was already there since the first game's pre-notes.

Making of Shadow Dragon (NES) - Serenes Forest

[Jotari]

36 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

You know, I just got reminded. While the OVA is indeed the first time Mostyn's name was publicly shown, him having that name was already there since the first game's pre-notes.

Making of Shadow Dragon (NES) - Serenes Forest

Oh nice find. I haven't read that article. That's very interesting. I thought it very likely that it was something further fleshed out for Old Mystery, but this takes it right back to before the first game was even made!

What jumps out to me right away was the original proposal had 26 planned maps. The game only has 25 (24 numbered chaptes plus the end game, and I like later games, no unnumbered prologue). I wonder what they decided to cut.

[Acacia Sgt]

52 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh nice find. I haven't read that article. That's very interesting. I thought it very likely that it was something further fleshed out for Old Mystery, but this takes it right back to before the first game was even made!

What jumps out to me right away was the original proposal had 26 planned maps. The game only has 25 (24 numbered chaptes plus the end game, and I like later games, no unnumbered prologue). I wonder what they decided to cut.

Curiously, the same chart talks about only 25 missions. 

It's possible this 26th map may have been a World Map.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Curiously, the same chart talks about only 25 missions. 

It's possible this 26th map may have been a World Map.

Only other thing I can think of is a map used purely for cutscenes (though using the term cutscene seems a bit generous for NES Fire Emblem).

[Eltosian Kadath]

24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Only other thing I can think of is a map used purely for cutscenes (though using the term cutscene seems a bit generous for NES Fire Emblem).

Could have been a separate map for an optional tutorial