Mischaracterizations and simplification of Fire Emblem Characters

[Etrurian emperor]

Alcryst's less then optimistic behavior in Heroes led to a fairly interesting conversation on the Heroes Board about how characters are often simplified or mischaracterized when they appear in other Fire Emblem games. I myself also addressed this topic regarding Micaiah in the unpopular opinions thread. With many Fire Emblem characters appearing in so many other games it might be interesting to see which traits of them get inflated, ignored or outright fabricated if they appear in other games. These days many characters have many different versions, be it their original selves, their Heroes incarnation, Engage rings or those weird summoning cards from Awakening.

So which characters do you think have been overly simplified over the years, or who have their wrongs traits focused upon and the more interesting ones ignored? To not dwell on negativity too much you're also free to mention which characters got handled surprisingly well once they were incorporated in other games.

Hector: For me Hector is a character who I don't think has been properly portrayed. In both Heroes and Engage he's defined as the jolly giant going ''hoho!''. The problem with this is that Hector isn't actually all that jolly in Blazing Blade. He's arguably the lord with the most negative traits in him. Throughout his conversations Hector is often rude and he certainly has a bitter and cynical side. When he feels sufficiently wronged as with Oswin and Jaffar Hector even shows a pretty unpleasant wrathful side in his behavior. Hector is a good guy underneath but he's certainly not someone to give off a jolly impression. At times Hector comes across as rude, and not in a charming way like Ike, and he can make a very bad social impression on people. Nils even seems intimidated by him, and comments about this from Hector and Lyn suggests he's far from the only one. 

The oafish portrayal also ignores that Hector is quite smart, to the point his disinterest in studies which he occasionally references in Engage didn't seem to hinder his intellect as all. To me it always seemed the point that his big brutish behavior caused people to wrongly assume he wasn't smart, and would then be proven wrong.

Even if we take into account that the Hector in Heroes and Engage is a post character development Hector then it still doesn't really fit. An older and wiser Hector would be more likely to reign in the overt informality to focus more on his duties as a Marques. 

Hector portrayal isn't all bad though. Someone so unconcerned about social norms likely would embrace ''his adorable friend'' Rosado, and his remarks about Uther depict a man very much at peace with his death, and who came to terms with their often tense relation. The softer touch to Hector character works when he's addressing younger characters since in Blazing Sword Hector always had a soft spot for the more delicate characters like Florina, Nils and even Serra. 

Soren: Don't get me wrong. I love how savage he is in Engage but despite his harsh words there's still a very different tone in Soren. He's more like the distant friend rolling his eyes at people rather than the truly nasty piece of work he could be in Tellius. Him amusingly driving Goldmary to despair is quite different then him tearing Elincia a new one, or being very, very vocal in his disgust for Skrimir. 

Michaiah: I said this recently in another thread so I'll be brief. Heroes and Engage focus on her motherly and cheerful side, but her portrayal in Tellius depicts someone far more distant, guarded and bitter than the happy girl we see in the other games. 

Ursula: In Heroes Ursula seems like a completely different character than Blazing Sword. She comes across as Sonia Junior. A happy, psychotic butcher rather than the serious woman we see in Blazing Sword. Ursula's definitely a complete villain but never quite so over the top as in Heroes. More like desperate to get noticed by her crush. Though one could argue the Heroes Ursula depicts one totally corrupted by Sonia. 

Conrad: So much focus on that stupid mask. The idea of the baddass masked man being a complete dork underneath is fun, but the joke got old far before IS was done with it.

Veronica: In Engage Veronica still goes on about wanting to destroy Askr. This is weird when her design is of the Veronica who already befriended the Askr trio and who's a definitive good guy now. 

As for some good depictions

Julius: I never really got attached to Julius in Genealogy. He seemed like a boring downgrade compared to his dad. Heroes did him a great favor by really focusing on the psychotic brat part of his personality. The voice actor clearly having a lot of fun with it also helps. Ever since Tracia showed him as a swooning boyfriend I always thought Julius still being a kid was more interesting than him just being Satan. In Heroes there's a childish glee to his boasts of brutality that's really fun, and him doing typical evil kid things like burning insects adds a lot of fun and charm to him.

Lex and Azelle: At first Heroes putting a lot of focus on ''lol Lex keeps dropping his axe into lakes!'' annoyed me a bit, but it was actually a very nice set up. Rather than sticking with the joke too long Lex goes to consult Azelle who listens patiently and gives him advice. Likewise in Azelle's forging bond chains Lex is there to hear him out. It helps sell the idea they really are the bests of friends.

Lilith: In Fates Lilith was a gameplay mechanic instead of a character, but Heroes did put some care into her personality. Even if its a low bar to clear I think its a solid improvement. 

Idunn and Lugh: The forging Bond chain put a lot of focus on Idunn being an innocent robot, and contrasted this with Lugh's inherent wholesomeness. Incorporating Lugh's personality into an actual storyline rather than depicting him as a good boy and calling it a day adds to his character. It shows Lugh isn't just everyone's favorite little bro but also a dependable lad too. Seeing the process of Idunn slowly warming up to the wider world is also more interesting than just briefly showing it in the ending. 

 

[Sunwoo]

Here, I'll help:

On 7/19/2023 at 2:09 PM, Sunwoo said:

And then you have instances like Shinon in Heroes, where he's portrayed as a cynical, rough-around-the-edges guy and seems to be written as a "jerk with a heart of gold". Whereas in actual Tellius games, he was an apologetic racist (who never changed this), continued to hate Ike even after Ike proved that he was worthy to lead the Greil Mercenaries, and is generally a dick who's only nice to Rolf and sometimes to Gatrie. (Can you tell that I don't like how Heroes!Shinon is written?)

For the record, I'd consider Shinon to be "overly simplified" and not in a good way. It almost feels like Heroes was afraid to make him the asshole that he really is because it might make them lose money, and so they "softened" him to be a character he never actually was.

Eirika is another character whom I think gets mischaracterized at times. Awakening in particular was guilty of sticking her in a wedding dress and focusing only on her gullible part. Which, uh, still has context to it because the two major times where she gets fooled are by people whom she has reason to trust/desperately wants to trust.

[Capt. Fargus]

My first run through FE7 I didnt think real highly of Jaffar to say the least, til the battle before dawn chapter when he wouldn’t wack Nino. That kinda surprised me

Too bad the Reed brothers didn’t turn on Sonia like I wished they would’ve. Kinda looked like Linus was gonna go that way in his convo with Eliwood

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Is Lyn my absolute favorite character in all of Fire Emblem, and a favorite character in gaming in general? Yes! Do I love that she's gotten so much attention in Heroes and love using her in Engage? Also yes! Has she been simplified in Heroes and Engage and not shown to her full extent? Oh most definitely.

Lyn is certainly a generally kind person, that is true. And Heroes and Engage focusing in on her nicer tendencies and her love of her homeland isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I don't think they've ever given us her other traits. For one, she can hold a grudge and have it extend to people who aren't actually involved, that much is abundantly clear when she's at first refusing help from Dart's crew. This also shows a level of stubbornness in her. She can also be blunt, and if she's angry enough or if the person is dangerous enough then she can be merciless to her enemies and the enemies of the people she cares for, something you can see in her dialogue against Lundgren and Nergal. There's also a level of sorrow in her character, something you see in her supports with Wallace, which also shows some of that anger she can hold in.

To the credit of Heroes, the most recent alt she got (that of the Mark + Lyn duo) leans into some of her other character traits. But it took them, what, 7 years to do it?

Edited July 22, 2023 by Fire Emblem Fan

[Eltosian Kadath]

5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

Hector portrayal isn't all bad though. Someone so unconcerned about social norms likely would embrace ''his adorable friend'' Rosado, and his remarks about Uther depict a man very much at peace with his death, and who came to terms with their often tense relation. The softer touch to Hector character works when he's addressing younger characters since in Blazing Sword Hector always had a soft spot for the more delicate characters like Florina, Nils and even Serra. 

I just wanted to emphasize another early Heroes moment of good characterization for Hector. In one of the early Tempest trials, he keys into the fact that the Berserker final boss of the trial is a vision of his future, of his death by violence (the doom he accepted upon taking up Armads), and he does his best to obfuscate that fact from his friends, even asking Marth/Lucina to keep that a secret from Eliwood and Lyn, to spare them the pain of that knowledge. The interaction felt very in character for Hector.

Then again the Tempest trials were some of the best written Heroes content in the early days...

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hey I'm ready to dunk on fire emblem crossovers as much as the next guy, but let's not leave the sequels, prequels, and remakes off the hook. They've got some stuff to answer for. Karel is a big missed opportunity in FE7. In FE6 they make a big deal about Karel the Sword Saint, and how he's troubled by that name. Rutger says everyone that wields a sword knows his name, but in FE7 he wants to duel every sword user to the death, that doesn't leave a lot of people to sing his praises or call him a Saint. FE7 is a chance to for them to write a story about how a man so influential got that name, and they blew it. I know it's hard writing prequel stories to Mentor-Type characters, because almost anything can seem unsatisfying or Not Enough.

Karel is not a major character in FE7 but like, he could have been if they wanted. My suggestion in that thread was to replace Jaffar with him. Have him be a highly skilled member of the Black Fang that leaves due to his conscience and spends the rest of his life atoning, starting with Nino. That's what makes a Saint instead of just any old legend. And it's more believable than a psychopathic murderer deciding one day on his own that killing isn't right. Smol illiterate child could be his turning point like it was for Jaffar. The Karel we did end up getting is less than one-dimensional. And him being an assassin back then hammers home that change in character - he literally class changed between games to a swordmaster. In an era when reclassing was not a thing!

Edited July 22, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Etrurian emperor]

28 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Hey I'm ready to dunk on fire emblem crossovers as much as the next guy, but let's not leave the sequels, prequels, and remakes off the hook.

In that area Alm is in a bit of a weird place. There are arguments that Alm pretty much being the most wholesome boy on Valentia clashed with his more cynical Walhard light portrayal in Awakening, and other arguments that this darker portrayal from Awakening wasn't really in line with Gaiden's writing. 

[Jotari]

I'm going to resist dunking on Remake Alm to instead talk about Marth for a second. Because honestly, Marth in everywhere except his own games is as boring as wet bread. It's not surprising why, as characterisation in Archanea is so limited, but Marth has more to him than just being the one dimensional nice heroic guy. It's clear in Shadow Dragon that losing his kingdom and his family has given him a healthy does of trauma. The kid isn't just soft hearted, he's a freaking orphan with the wait of the world in his shoulders. Remember, when he reclaims Altea he has to pretend to smile while inside he is absolutely destroyed by the confirmation that his mother is dead. And he is capable of hate. Sure we don't see much of that, only his hurried character arc away from it in Gra and later some poetically out beef with Gharnef, but in his half a page of dialogue, it's there. Marth as a character is defined very much by his weakness than his strengths, which outside of his own story is basically just changed into kindness.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm going to resist dunking on Remake Alm to instead talk about Marth for a second. Because honestly, Marth in everywhere except his own games is as boring as wet bread. It's not surprising why, as characterisation in Archanea is so limited, but Marth has more to him than just being the one dimensional nice heroic guy. It's clear in Shadow Dragon that losing his kingdom and his family has given him a healthy does of trauma. The kid isn't just soft hearted, he's a freaking orphan with the wait of the world in his shoulders. Remember, when he reclaims Altea he has to pretend to smile while inside he is absolutely destroyed by the confirmation that his mother is dead. And he is capable of hate. Sure we don't see much of that, only his hurried character arc away from it in Gra and later some poetically out beef with Gharnef, but in his half a page of dialogue, it's there. 

There's a line early in FE12 that absolutely floored me. In the Prologue when Elice takes Kris aside to tell him "Actually, Marth is baby gamer that can't stand the thought of his comrades dying. That's why he resets over every death and why we invented Casual Mode last week and brought Frey back to life despite his death being supposedly canonical". I'm paraphrasing of course, but would you lay off, Sis? Excuse Marth for losing sleep some nights like any normal person does. Every leader feels guilt over their mistakes, whether they're justified feelings of guilt or not. She could have skipped ahead to the "Please Protect his Ideals" part of the pep talk.

Anyway, back to Shadow Dragon, what they really could have used was a conversation between Marth and Jiol (Chapter 14 boss). In the FE11 cannon, the prologue shows us that it was that man and his troops, specifically, hunting Marth. But more importantly we know he's responsible for Marth's Dad's death. Possibly Mom too, we never get any context on how or when she died. And yet Marth makes no comment on Jiol's death. He also doesn't seem particularly conflicted about making a big detour into the Desert when his homeland is right there waiting to be liberated. What a massive vacuum of missed characterization opportunities, all in one chapter.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

There's a line early in FE12 that absolutely floored me. In the Prologue when Elice takes Kris aside to tell him "Actually, Marth is baby gamer that can't stand the thought of his comrades dying. That's why he resets over every death and why we invented Casual Mode last week and brought Frey back to life despite his death being supposedly canonical". I'm paraphrasing of course, but would you lay off, Sis? Excuse Marth for losing sleep some nights like any normal person does. Every leader feels guilt over their mistakes, whether they're justified feelings of guilt or not. She could have skipped ahead to the "Please Protect his Ideals" part of the pep talk.

I didn't really like that Elite conversation either (and then everyone went and blamed Kris for it). Despite it kind of showing what I'm getting at. It felt needlessly savage for Elice.

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Anyway, back to Shadow Dragon, what they really could have used was a conversation between Marth and Jiol (Chapter 14 boss). In the FE11 cannon, the prologue shows us that it was that man and his troops, specifically, hunting Marth. But more importantly we know he's responsible for Marth's Dad's death. Possibly Mom too, we never get any context on how or when she died. And yet Marth makes no comment on Jiol's death. He also doesn't seem particularly conflicted about making a big detour into the Desert when his homeland is right there waiting to be liberated. What a massive vacuum of missed characterization opportunities, all in one chapter.

Well I'll reassert what I've been saying a few weeks now, give the Shadow Dragon manga a read. They do the Jiol Marth stuff really, really well.

Also we know Morzas personally killed Marth's mother Liza, presumably when Altea first fell. Though that does make me wonder what her bloodline was and wether she was princess enough to be useful for Gharnef's Aum plans.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

It obviously doesn't apply for every case, but I still stand that characters are shaped by their environment, past and present. Micaiah is a good example of it. As I mentioned in the Unpopular Opinions thread, as RD has her go through a very specific set of events, that should it change then of course her personality is going to see a shift. Things like her fear of Branded persecution is much less relevant in Askr, and in Elyos it'd flat out don't exist anymore as Emblem Micaiah is technically not a Branded.

But, as I said, it's doubtful this is the case for every shift in personality we see. Oh well.

50 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

and brought Frey back to life despite his death being supposedly canonical". 

For its worth, Aum Staff can't resurrect whoever you used as the decoy. I don't remember if it works for anyone else who died in the Prologue segment to imply a time limit, but as it stands, Shadow Dragon was already hinting that the decoy (or rather Frey, because who else was it going to be for canon to be preserved) wasn't actually killed.

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Though that does make me wonder what her bloodline was and wether she was princess enough to be useful for Gharnef's Aum plans.

I mean, she was a Queen, so 0 princess material. Maybe Aum is that picky.

I could think she was, at best, from a noble family. Perhaps one needs to be born a princess to qualify... who knows.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

And don't forget Caeda. Outside of her own games with Marth, they strip away a ton of what makes her such an intriguing and great character. She's politically savy, has a slick tongue, and she doesn't really seem afraid of all that much, throwing herself into danger to save Ogma and turn Navarre (among others) to her side. She's a kind person and clearly attracts a lot of attention from men, and she and clearly loves Marth, but that's pretty much all things like Heroes shows.

[Jotari]

50 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It obviously doesn't apply for every case, but I still stand that characters are shaped by their environment, past and present. Micaiah is a good example of it. As I mentioned in the Unpopular Opinions thread, as RD has her go through a very specific set of events, that should it change then of course her personality is going to see a shift. Things like her fear of Branded persecution is much less relevant in Askr, and in Elyos it'd flat out don't exist anymore as Emblem Micaiah is technically not a Branded.

But, as I said, it's doubtful this is the case for every shift in personality we see. Oh well.

For its worth, Aum Staff can't resurrect whoever you used as the decoy. I don't remember if it works for anyone else who died in the Prologue segment to imply a time limit, but as it stands, Shadow Dragon was already hinting that the decoy (or rather Frey, because who else was it going to be for canon to be preserved) wasn't actually killed.

I mean, she was a Queen, so 0 princess material. Maybe Aum is that picky.

I could think she was, at best, from a noble family. Perhaps one needs to be born a princess to qualify... who knows.

I guess it's unsurprising, but we know nothing about Marth's matrilineal lines except his mother's name. We know his grandfather and great grandfather's name, but not who they married or where they (the spouses) were from. Did they keep it in the family and marry inside Altea? Was there an exchange of royals with Gra? That would seem likely given how close the kingdoms are. Or does Marth have any blood connections to Myston and Talys? That's one thing that's a lot of fun about Jugdral, even minor (noble) characters actually have pretty robust family trees.

47 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

And don't forget Caeda. Outside of her own games with Marth, they strip away a ton of what makes her such an intriguing and great character. She's politically savy, has a slick tongue, and she doesn't really seem afraid of all that much, throwing herself into danger to save Ogma and turn Navarre (among others) to her side. She's a kind person and clearly attracts a lot of attention from men, and she and clearly loves Marth, but that's pretty much all things like Heroes shows.

You say that, and while I don't want to expressly disagree, I feel that's more inferred than directly apparent. Despite having a lot more conversation than most characters, I have a hard time actually grasping the idea of Shiida's character. Of her, is it four, recruitment conversations, she seems to take a different tactic. With Castor it's appealing to his guilt. With Nabarl it's appealing to his (apparent) inner goodness. With Roger it's borderline sex appeal. And with Lawrence it's lofiter loyalties and family connections. I guess we could say those are all calculated and she's politically savvy, but to me it almost feels like she lacks character and will just say what ever works for any given situation. Probably her strongest character moment was rescuing Ogma from the slave pits, but I'm not sure that was even something that was ever made explicit in the game. You're right that she's worse in her other appearances though wherein even any nuances that could be gleamed from these conversations are removed and she's just nice girl fiance of nice boy prince.

The OVA made her pretty bratty which I feel like might have annoyed a lot of people if it had been more popular, but I'm on board for it given how weak I feel her character is. Plus, she actually is only fourteen. For perspective that's the same age as Nino and Cyril, and only a year older than Sanaki and Delthea. Shiida is super young in Shadow Dragon and by all rights should have had a different character design in Mystery of the Emblem where she is 17. As there's a lot of growth to be had between those years.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I guess it's unsurprising, but we know nothing about Marth's matrilineal lines except his mother's name. We know his grandfather and great grandfather's name, but not who they married or where they (the spouses) were from. Did they keep it in the family and marry inside Altea? Was there an exchange of royals with Gra? That would seem likely given how close the kingdoms are. Or does Marth have any blood connections to Myston and Talys? That's one thing that's a lot of fun about Jugdral, even minor (noble) characters actually have pretty robust family trees.

I could think it likely that having Altea and Gra inter-marry, if at least between nobles, was probably done at least once, as a way to warm up relations after the schism.

Hmm... you know, food for thought. If Medeus hadn't been resurrected or at least if Gharnef hadn't convinced Jiol to switch sides, would either or both of Cornelius and Jiol would've actually tried to have Marth and Sheena marry each other, trying to unite the two nations once again?

Anyway, considering we barely know anything about Mostyn (is he even native to Talys or simply saw a place he could forge a kingdom out of it, the same way Ordwin did with Grust?), it could go anywhere... but if they were closely related, I'd think it would've been brought up. So perhaps we can discard that idea.

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The OVA made her pretty bratty which I feel like might have annoyed a lot of people if it had been more popular, but I'm on board for it given how weak I feel her character is. Plus, she actually is only fourteen. For perspective that's the same age as Nino and Cyril, and only a year older than Sanaki and Delthea. Shiida is super young in Shadow Dragon and by all rights should have had a different character design in Mystery of the Emblem where she is 17. As there's a lot of growth to be had between those years.

Well, Shadow Dragon did changed her design enough, at least. Or at least, to me it certainly feels like she got redesigned slightly, while keeping her "classic" appearance for her New Mystery self.

[Jotari]

22 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I could think it likely that having Altea and Gra inter-marry, if at least between nobles, was probably done at least once, as a way to warm up relations after the schism.

Hmm... you know, food for thought. If Medeus hadn't been resurrected or at least if Gharnef hadn't convinced Jiol to switch sides, would either or both of Cornelius and Jiol would've actually tried to have Marth and Sheena marry each other, trying to unite the two nations once again?

Anyway, considering we barely know anything about Mostyn (is he even native to Talys or simply saw a place he could forge a kingdom out of it, the same way Ordwin did with Grust?), it could go anywhere... but if they were closely related, I'd think it would've been brought up. So perhaps we can discard that idea.

Well, Shadow Dragon did changed her design enough, at least. Or at least, to me it certainly feels like she got redesigned slightly, while keeping her "classic" appearance for her New Mystery self.

Shadow Dragon and New Mystery retain the same design though. As do Old Mystery books 1 and 2 (well pretty much, in both cases she changes her pose...but it's the same design and she looks the same age). Her Shadow Dragon design is fine for New Mystery, but she should look younger in Shadow Dragon. Girl looks like she's twenty.

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Shadow Dragon and New Mystery retain the same design though. As do Old Mystery books 1 and 2 (well pretty much, in both cases she changes her pose...but it's the same design and she looks the same age). Her Shadow Dragon design is fine for New Mystery, but she should look younger in Shadow Dragon. Girl looks like she's twenty.

Her overall outfit is the same, yes, but Caeda herself is different in both artworks. Like how her hair is noticeably shorter in Shadow Dragon, for example.

 

[lenticular]

Welp, it's unpopular opinion o'clock, I guess.

I can't speak for Heroes since I don't play it, but when it comes to the Emblems in Engage, Mirages in TMS, Einherjar in Awakening, etc, simplified characters are not only inevitable but desirable.

There just isn't enough dialogue for the legacy characters in these cases for them to have anything close to complex and nuanced characterisation. They get a few lines at best, which can be used to maybe convey a single character trait if you're lucky. Trying to convey the full breadth of Micaiah's Radiant Dawn characterisation just wouldn't work in Engage where she's so much less prominent. And if the writers had tried to pull together all the disparate parts of her personality, she'd just come across as a muddled mess.

And the answer isn't to add in extra dialogue to give room for extra characterisation. Doing so would make the games and their stories feel bloated and unwieldy and would take focus away from the new characters who are supposed to be carrying the plot.

Basically, when old characters reappear in new games, they typically aren't actually supposed to be characters in the full sense of the world. They're more like paintings or dolls. There's just enough there to be vaguely reminicent of the character and to trigger nostalgia for their fans, but nothing more than that.

[Etrurian emperor]

On 7/23/2023 at 5:34 AM, lenticular said:

There just isn't enough dialogue for the legacy characters in these cases for them to have anything close to complex and nuanced characterisation. They get a few lines at best, which can be used to maybe convey a single character trait if you're lucky. Trying to convey the full breadth of Micaiah's Radiant Dawn characterisation just wouldn't work in Engage where she's so much less prominent. And if the writers had tried to pull together all the disparate parts of her personality, she'd just come across as a muddled mess.

I think the problem is usually more tone than debt. That the cameo lords can't be fully fledged characters speaks for itself, but even within those restrictions you can still get their general tone right. 

Lyn and Hector being socially challenged and making a bad impression is something that could easily have been done even with the handful of lines bond support allows. Or Hector giving a brief warning to former enemies that he'll kill them if they return to villainy. 

And while Michy obviously can't be patriot who's ruthlessness and desperation border on war crimes during bond supports she can be a little more subdued and guarded as she should be, rather than perpetually cheerful which she never was. 

[Magenta Fantasies]

I agree about Marth and Caeda, as other people have said. Marth’s characterization in fanfiction is like that as well; it seems writers don’t want to give him negative traits.

On that note, what about characters who FANS tend to mischaracterize? Offhand, I can think of a few:

Celica: Some fans see her as foolish and weak-willed, but her actions make sense for someone with her background. She was moved around to remote locations for most of her childhood, and then lived on a small isolated island. Sure, Celica makes some dubious decisions. It’s not out of stupidity, but because she is naive, sheltered and tries to see the best in others. I could say the same about Corrin, and that’s part of why those two are among my favorite lords.

Jakob: He’s not a colder Frederick, he’s a warmer Soren. Jakob has so much more in common with Soren than Frederick, especially in his personality and motivations. Also, I’ve noticed fanfiction (and even the way he’s drawn sometimes in fan art) often “Sebastian Michaelis-ify” him into an always suave and capable butler, which loses part of Jakob’s charm. While he is very talented, he’s outspoken, brusque, argumentative and is quick to call others on their nonsense, thus he doesn’t have an ideal personality for a butler. This makes for a fun contrast with Felicia, who has a great personality for a maid, but lacks skill.

Hayato: People compare him negatively to Ricken, but he has a pretty different personality and circumstances. I can see why people would say Ricken is whiny, even if I like Ricken, but Hayato has a chip on his shoulder for more legitimate reasons. It’s one thing to be a young woman and look younger than one’s age. Many women want to be seen as cute or endearing and don’t mind being perceived that way because they look younger than they are (I can speak from personal experience on that.) Virtually no young men feel that way, so it’s easy to see why Hayato would find his appearance embarrassing and emasculating. In return, he overcompensates in acting like an adult, which leads to him acting immature. He has a fun mix of childlike and adultlike traits, and that’s part of why he’s one of my favorite Hoshidan characters.

Subaki: Like Hayato is to Ricken, people tend to negatively compare Subaki to Cordelia. While I think he was inspired by her to some degree, they have quite different personalities aside from their work ethic and perfectionism. Cordelia is somewhat unaware of her talent and underestimates her value, while Subaki overemphasizes his value and talent in hopes of obscuring his insecurities and fear of failure.

[Sunwoo]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:54 PM, Jotari said:

I'm going to resist dunking on Remake Alm to instead talk about Marth for a second. Because honestly, Marth in everywhere except his own games is as boring as wet bread. It's not surprising why, as characterisation in Archanea is so limited, but Marth has more to him than just being the one dimensional nice heroic guy. It's clear in Shadow Dragon that losing his kingdom and his family has given him a healthy does of trauma. The kid isn't just soft hearted, he's a freaking orphan with the wait of the world in his shoulders. Remember, when he reclaims Altea he has to pretend to smile while inside he is absolutely destroyed by the confirmation that his mother is dead. And he is capable of hate. Sure we don't see much of that, only his hurried character arc away from it in Gra and later some poetically out beef with Gharnef, but in his half a page of dialogue, it's there. Marth as a character is defined very much by his weakness than his strengths, which outside of his own story is basically just changed into kindness.

But Jotari wet bread is gross as fuck --

Honestly, in extension to this, I think all the lords get rather mischaracterized in side materials. Sometimes it's more understandable, other times it just seems like pure laziness or misunderstanding of the character in general. Because on the one hand, the lords take an entire game to develop as characters. Time that isn't available to them in side games where they're just present for recognizability and nostalgia, and some of them might naturally trust these people they got pulled in for a spin-off much less than their friends and army. On the other hand, some characters just ... REALLY leaned into the less interesting aspect of their character.

Like, when I got the B-level bond conversation between Hortensia and Celica, I raged when Celica was all "oH OnLY BUlLiEs ATtacKinG iNNoCenT pEOpLE MAke mE ANgrY". She very famously got mad at Alm (without being able to properly explain why) and is the in-story justification for split paths being a thing in SoV. But of course we can't have her be anything but sweet and kind.

Speaking of lords, Xander (who may or may not count as a lord) is a mischaracterization in a weird way ... primarily, that the story wants to make him a righteous princely dude who preaches about making difficult decision as a royal. But his actual writing makes him a fucktard who excused Nohr's bad actions, because he thought Garon would go back to normal if they invaded Hoshido. I'm pretty sure this aspect of his character is unintentional, it's like the writers do not realize how much of a terrible person Xander actually is because they keep doubling down on this "noble prince" aspect of his character that's hardly shown in writing.

[Use the Falchion]

Tharja - She's usally seen as either Ms. Fanservice or THE Yandere Stalker of modern FE games, but people forget that she actually is a very kind person most of the time. She's manipulative, but usually manipulates others to the betterment of the innocent, as seen in her supports with Donnel and Virion, and her ending with Libra. (Which also shows that she loves kids.) Tharja is occasionally shown to take "younger/weaker" people under her wing, like Nowi and Olivia in Awakening (IIRC DLC for Olivia), Azura in Warriors, and Kiria in TMS#FE. But sure, let's focus on the one aspect that only really comes out in a few supports and has very little impact on her character ending, unlike future versions of the tropes. 

Honestly, most characters in Awakening are simplified to their core quirk, it feels like. It's not as if they don't have depth, but I guess the game's mechanics and the lack of overt nuance (what an oxymoron lol!) makes them seem simpler than they actually are. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Tharja - She's usally seen as either Ms. Fanservice or THE Yandere Stalker of modern FE games, but people forget that she actually is a very kind person most of the time. She's manipulative, but usually manipulates others to the betterment of the innocent, as seen in her supports with Donnel and Virion, and her ending with Libra. (Which also shows that she loves kids.) Tharja is occasionally shown to take "younger/weaker" people under her wing, like Nowi and Olivia in Awakening (IIRC DLC for Olivia), Azura in Warriors, and Kiria in TMS#FE. But sure, let's focus on the one aspect that only really comes out in a few supports and has very little impact on her character ending, unlike future versions of the tropes. 

Honestly, most characters in Awakening are simplified to their core quirk, it feels like. It's not as if they don't have depth, but I guess the game's mechanics and the lack of overt nuance (what an oxymoron lol!) makes them seem simpler than they actually are. 

Awakening's writing certainly does it no favours. Gimmicky characters have existed before and since but Awakening was certainly the most gimmicky of gimmicky casts. Are there deeper depths to the characters? Yeah, sure, when you sift through enough of their huge support pool there will be something you can latch on to. But, like, Tharja even if she shows some kindness in some supports still is that Yandere Stalker who curses people and abuses her daughter first and foremost. I guess what I'm trying to say is that spin off stuff simplifies characters down to their most basic traits, but Awakening already did that in its base game.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

A very curious case is Pent since the depiction we get from him in Blazing Sword barely resembles what we hear of him in Binding Blade. 

The very idea that Pent would ignore a war involving dragons just sound very silly when you remember what a gigantic nerd he is. And while Pent never gets depicted as overly patriotic he seems too noble to just let Bern and some traitors ravage Etruria while he sips tea in his manor. There's also Clarine worrying about her father pushing her into a lady-like lifestyle which doesn't sound like Pent at all. He's attracted to Louis precisely because she wasn't a dainty lady, and overall he seems very loose and unprofessional for a noble. 

The curious thing about this being that the older Pent who seems so much unlike the real Pent having been created before Pent ever became playable. 

Adopting Dieck however and loving him like his own does sound like the Pent we know. 

[Sunwoo]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

A very curious case is Pent since the depiction we get from him in Blazing Sword barely resembles what we hear of him in Binding Blade. 

The very idea that Pent would ignore a war involving dragons just sound very silly when you remember what a gigantic nerd he is. And while Pent never gets depicted as overly patriotic he seems too noble to just let Bern and some traitors ravage Etruria while he sips tea in his manor. There's also Clarine worrying about her father pushing her into a lady-like lifestyle which doesn't sound like Pent at all. He's attracted to Louis precisely because she wasn't a dainty lady, and overall he seems very loose and unprofessional for a noble. 

The curious thing about this being that the older Pent who seems so much unlike the real Pent having been created before Pent ever became playable. 

Adopting Dieck however and loving him like his own does sound like the Pent we know. 

In all fairness, perhaps that can be attributed to Pent just changing with age and having different priorities now that he has a family. After all, Bartre in FE7 forgot that Karla was a woman because he only saw her as the most powerful warrior he knew and wanted to beat, while FE6!Bartre clearly shows more worry towards his daughter and has that dumb support with Zeiss about how men aren't manly anymore or something.

[Use the Falchion]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Gimmicky characters have existed before and since but Awakening was certainly the most gimmicky of gimmicky casts.

Fates and Engage would like to speak to you. Although yes, I see your point. Up until that point, it was an incredibly colorful cast. Still, I'd prefer what Awakening did with its cast and supports over Radiant Dawn's "let's introduce you for a chapter and then make you unusable for half the game, and then let you languish because you're no longer optimal or even useful" approach towards their characters. 

 

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Are there deeper depths to the characters? Yeah, sure, when you sift through enough of their huge support pool there will be something you can latch on to.

It's not actually like it's hard to do. The game encourages supports, and they aren't cut-and-paste supports like most of Radiant Dawn or repeating the same information nearly every support like in Fates. Vaike talks about growing up poor in different contexts, but it's always used to relate to the person in question in a unique way. For some, it's an inspiration. For others, it's a comparison. For still more, it's motivation to get to a further goal. But this isn't hard information to find. Just, you know, actually build a support with like one of three characters (Chrom, Lissa, and Lon'qu, so you don't even have to go far) and it's there. 

 

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

that Yandere Stalker who curses people

I can only think of two times where she curses someone, and both times it was harmless. (Virion, who wasn't even affected, and Frederick where it's played for laughs and Tharja ultimately quits.)

 

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

abuses her daughter first and foremost.

Technicality - a version of her who is never seen abuses her daughter. The Tharja we see in the game uses Noire as a test dummy for minor curses, yes, but those aren't treated much differently than a parent/spouse trying out a new recipe and using their children/significant other as a test dummy for said recipe. (Noire herself seems somewhere resigned to this fate (her supports with her father) and enjoying it as a form of bonding (her supports with her mother and her Future Past dialogue with her mother).) The point of the hexes aren't to harm Noire, as both future and present versions of Tharja actively try not to. (It's the reason Future Tharja never had Noire assist in any actually dangers Dark Magic, and why Present Tharja doesn't teach Noire any hexes.) 

Quote

Tharja: I don't want you dealing in hexes. The dark arts carry with them tremendous risks. My future self knew as much...

Noire: You think that she was worried for my safety? That...she loved me?

Tharja: Can't say. Not about her, at least. ...But I love you, if that helps.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that spin off stuff simplifies characters down to their most basic traits, but Awakening already did that in its base game.

I still heavily disagree on two points with Tharja. First is that spinoffs simplify a character down to their most basic traits. The trait you've chosen to identify isn't the main trait the spinoffs have chosen to identify. Tharja isn't a fanservice girl, but that's what Heroes and even TMS would lead you to believe. In the base game, she has one single person compliment her on her looks. Out of all of the DLC, it shows up in one specific scenario and support. But IntSys has latched onto that like no other. 

The second point I disagree with is that Awakening simplifies its characters down to a basic trait. No, what Awakening did was show you a quirk and allow players to discover more about the characters at their own pace. They say "Hey, if you like this character's design and quirk, use them and learn more about them pretty quickly!" That's different than saying "this is all there is to this character." 

If characters were simplified to their most basic traits in Awakening, then every support Cordelia had would mention Chrom every single time. Instead, Cordelia has several supports that don't even mention her crush on Chrom, or when they do it's only in the optional S-Support. (Thinking back, I'm pretty sure most of her supports work like that. Gregor is the one major exception I can think of off the top of my head.)

The only exception to that rule is Kellam, who is forgotten in 90% of his supports and in pretty much every paired ending.

 

Awakening works a lot like Three Houses in that regard. It introduces you to characters, tells you their gameplay purpose and main gimmick (in 3H remember you have the option to talk to the House Leaders to learn about your potential students first), and then lets you discover more about them at your own pace. The only major differences are that Three Houses has paralogues for the characters, and the characters are given more screentime.