Permadeath and Plot

[AnonymousSpeed]

I'm sure we've all heard permadeath be critiqued, at one point or another, on the grounds that it negatively affects the plot by requiring no characters be necessary. There are many examples (or at least I assume many) of me talking about the emergent narrative in Fire Emblem being more important, but we'll ignore that. I just want to say why this is a silly objection and why it would not only be easy to fix, but has been concretely fixed.

Look, guys. The solution really isn't that hard.

Just have Malledus.

Y'know, make the non-lord characters in the story ones that can't be deployed on the map. FE games actually used to do this all the time, and it was the general logic which the series operated on for the first six games. The main lord gives you a game-over when they die, and everyone else stayed dead. Supporting characters who showed up throughout the game were not deployable units, and their numbers counted Malledus, August, and Guinevere.

It was not until that dreaded creature FE7 was released that the series really started ignoring this idea. Oswin and characters from FE6 all retreated when they died, and it continued to spiral out of control from there. The role of the "advisor" was essentially folded into the Jeigan from that point onward (with a few twists and variations that were all still deployable units). Having a plot-important character that isn't on the map is something of a lost art in Fire Emblem.

Look, I get it. The weebs and nerds want to see their favorite waifus and husbandos get the spotlight and do cool things, they want Guinevere to girlboss around like she does in the trial maps, but if that's our goal then we should stop talking about the plot in this self-serious manner entirely.

Honestly, the hilarious part about it to me is how little these characters actually do with their never-ending retreat quotes. A bunch of characters in Engage retreat, but they don't do anything besides talk in cutscenes and they don't even say or contribute anything interesting. The Emblems do most of the actual hero-side plot development, while Diamant and Ivy are just there to stand around and affirm the player character.

Malledus had a clear function- he provided exposition to Marth and therefore the player. The only guy who cares about Thracia's plot likes August a lot. Merlinus exists to always be wrong and comically wrong at that, but he at least provides a foil to Roy. Ignoring the permadeath element has actually made the characters more like bumps on a log than when they were actually just advisors. Probably because narrative agency for every individual doesn't make sense in a tactics game.

Edited August 10, 2023 by AnonymousSpeed

[Hrothgar777]

That or multiple characters could be game-overs if they die on Classic (on that note I don't understand why MC is still a game over on Casual).

The critique here, I guess, is that it'd make the game too hard. My response to that would be: (1). nowadays the only people doing Classic are in it for the challenge; (2). the introduction of these characters as deployable units could be gradually spread out across the game, or concentrated primarily in the second half, instead of front-loaded in the early chapters so that it's never too damning an option to just keep these out of your party; and (3). the game could balance this liability on their part by giving them better than average long-term usefulness and viability, though admittedly this could be problematic if the player isn't doing Classic.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Hrothgar777

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Between-chapter narration does a lot of heavy lifting too. Setting a stage, giving us a vibe of the current conflict and its major players. But sure, I don't see a downside to a Malledus. And most people won't if she's a super hot babe whose unplayable yet plot important. Or maybe she and the Lord are a tag team, so a death doubly justifies the game over state. 

But man if it's me, I'm hiring on twice the writers and we're hashing out all the divergent scenes according to specific character deaths. Funeral scenes. Guilt trip-laden flashbacks. Cutting to the family that unit left behind. Discovering all of that would be way more interesting than reading the latest Bernadetta support where she flips out for a slightly unique reason. Then have some point-based unlock system for players to see all of that in the Event Recap instead of actually playing the game so many times for each permutation. No self-respecting writer would look at permadeath as a barrier to great storytelling. It's a distinct opportunity. An artistic license power trip.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The only guy who cares about Thracia's plot likes August a lot.

Well, I don't know if a lot, but he's certainly up there in my Top 10 perhaps...

---

Yeah, I wish that could come back. Or, if they're adamant on them contributing with something gameplay-wise, well, it has been done before! August and Dryas weren't just there to chat with Leif, they each gave him a Leadership Star. So a passive effect that doesn't require them to be subjected to the threat of permadeath and lets them be the plot drivers.

Then again, it did not saved Dryas.

[indigoasis]

2 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

But man if it's me, I'm hiring on twice the writers and we're hashing out all the divergent scenes according to specific character deaths.

I'm not sure how much this counts, but Echoes did exactly this, just not to a super great extent.

There are the different character endings depending on who's alive or dead, of course, but there are also a couple of scenes that play out differently if someone dies. It doesn't drastically change the plot or anything, but I think it does recontextualize a few things in the story, like Clive and Alm's relationship if Mathilda dies before you recruit her, going from "My friend left the band because I made you the new lead singer" to "My girlfriend is dead because of you."

It's really just some alternate dialogue for somehow missing out on the best unit in the game, but it does show the consequences of the player's actions and they make sure that you feel bad about it with Clive's reaction.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah, I wish that could come back. Or, if they're adamant on them contributing with something gameplay-wise, well, it has been done before! August and Dryas weren't just there to chat with Leif, they each gave him a Leadership Star. So a passive effect that doesn't require them to be subjected to the threat of permadeath and lets them be the plot drivers.

Conversely, let the "Malledus" be fielded, but have him work like Merlinus. Whereby, he leaves for the rest of the map, but comes back for the next one. I'm fine with this, so long as it's done for a pure support unit. They could be a Convoy, or a Healer, or a walking Authority Star, or maybe even a Shover! Strangely, it's more plausible to me that the same person can just repeatedly brush off death, than that every person fights to the point of disability-but-not-death. Canonically, our advisor could be kind of a coward, who admits to "going when the going gets tough", but still does all they can to help their Lord.

That said - to the general point, I would be gung-ho for a return to "Malledus" and "Nyna" archetypes. I know that folks want characters who actually fight to have more of a role in the story. But in my opinion, that's what base conversations and paralogues are for. These reward the player for keeping a certain unit alive, giving them more characterization, potentially some new items, and a new gameplay route. In Shadow Dragon, for instance, there could've been a paralogue, after defeating Michaelis, only if Minerva, Maria and the Whitewings are all alive. Or one after reclaiming the Palace of Pales, but only if you kept Midia and company alive. That way, you can give these characters a "moment in the spotlight" with story relevance, however brief. In short, they should've made the paralogue unlock conditions essentially the opposite of what they turned out to be.

[Acacia Sgt]

If I may, I'm reminded of Super Robot War's recently stablished Supporter system. Supporters are NPC's that function as a secondary list of "units". They don't fight, but if deployed (they have their separate deployment list from the actual playable units), they give you a passive bonus, and an triggerable ability. Could be an interesting mechanics for FE to use, at least once.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

15 minutes ago, indigoasis said:

I'm not sure how much this counts, but Echoes did exactly this, just not to a super great extent.

Oh buddy I've been flaunting that same video link for six years. I'm not sure I really cared about the narrative potential of permadeath before Echoes. The spark was me getting Est killed and hearing her call out to her sisters. Hearing, not reading like we did in previous, un-voice acted games.

And the thing is modern Fire Emblem already has massive writing staffs. They'd have to be to turn in a script as lengthy as Three Houses. It's just a shame none of them went credited. Not a single writer/editor aside from the names under Localization (those are, understandably, writers) and the three names under "Scenario". Those are the Big Idea guys that might not have penned a single word in the finalized script. Let me take these underpaid, contracted, un-credited writers, and turn them onto subjects more interesting than Support Chain #12 for bad Gimmick Character, 'what does Hanneman say when you cook with him', and 'What does Raphael think of Crimson Flower chapter 14 when you talk to him in the Monastery'. Then I'll slip their names into the credits secretly and get fired from the japanese games industry. 

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Easy, just give the enemies 0 dmg so noone can die.

 

I don´t see why Marth dying should be the end of the story. It´s the story of the war against the Shadow Dragon and not of Fire Emblem: blue-haired-boy-who-lost-his-kingdom-goes-to-another-kingdom-finds-allies-and-acquires-the-means-of-dragon-slaying and unless I´m misremembering the Falchion is by no means an Anri-family exclusive. Hurr-durr, Tiki and Naga being more failsafes. Malledus is still there, Jeigan too, Caeda, Hardin, Nyna, Minerva once her lil sis is safe... the show can go on.

Permadeath would be meaningful if there was a game over ending and not just a screen telling you to not pass go.

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The only guy who cares about Thracia's plot likes August a lot.

Oi!...I'm sure I'm not the only one. There's almost 800 people who care about Thracia's plot. Well, a little less than 800. Somewhere around the 776 mark.

But, on topic, I'm totally fine with the Merlinus characters giving a gameover condition. And, in fact, that's how I handle it in my own budding fan game. Diamant and Ivy aren't useless to the plot because you can play as them. They're useless because the writers didn't care about them enough to integrate them into the main plot in a more direct way. We know Fire Emblem's model can write huge scale plots with multiple relevant figures. We've seen it done already with Genealogy and, especially, Radiant Dawn. The only thing stopping them doing something like that again is will (and the habit of making every playable character a royal+retainers).

Edited August 10, 2023 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

I’d not be rooting for a return to the strategist scenes because aside from August they didn’t make for interesting conversation.

Compared to Eliwood, Hector and Lyn bouncing off each other it felt so stale for Roy to just talk to the plot princess and his absolute failiure of an adviser. Marth also only talking to his strategist and the plot princess is why the presentation of shadow dragon felt so intensely stiff. Lewyn had some interesting things to say but ultimately Seliph only talking to him, and his dad only talking to Oifey made the game’s events way less interesting then they should. That Lewyn had to first lose all his character traits to become the stiff advisor is not in the tropes favor.

Echoes dipped its toe in the trope by making Clive a Merlinus who’d mess up to make Alm look good, but this was arguably one of the less satisfying decisions of the game. Echoes making the Ram boys and the bickering couple the main source of interaction with the lords, and this bringing a great amount of charm to the writing further shows the use of not focusing on stiff advisors but on characters instead.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Etrurian emperor

[Jotari]

53 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 things to say but ultimately Seliph only talking to him, and his dad only talking to Oifey made the game’s events way less interesting then they should. That Lewyn had to first lose all his character traits to become the stiff advisor is not in the tropes favor.

Seliph certainly falls into a very Marth-Roy mold, but that it not the case for Sigurd. He does a lot more talking than just Oifey. In fact, he barely talks to Oifey at all. Most of Oifey's dialogue involves announcing the arrival of other characters Sigurd speaks to. He has a variety of conversations with both playable and unplayable characters, most noticably Deirdre, Eldigan, the King of Verdane and Lewyin's mother, among others. Oifey is a kid and doesn't really know anything about anything, so the plot structure is for Sigurd to find some kind of important person at each castle. Meanwhile Lewyn does know everything about everything and gives Seliph exposition every time a castle is conquered.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

In fact I'd say my advice would be to move away from the Malledus types. Replace him with Caeda and Harin in Shadow Dragon, and with Lilina in Binding Blade. Get rid of archaic plot devices and replace them with more established characters. That said Malledus should of course remain as part of Marth's inner circle, just not the main speaking partner.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Seliph certainly falls into a very Marth-Roy mold, but that it not the case for Sigurd. He does a lot more talking than just Oifey. In fact, he barely talks to Oifey at all. Most of Oifey's dialogue involves announcing the arrival of other characters Sigurd speaks to. He has a variety of conversations with both playable and unplayable characters, most noticably Deirdre, Eldigan, the King of Verdane and Lewyin's mother, among others. Oifey is a kid and doesn't really know anything about anything, so the plot structure is for Sigurd to find some kind of important person at each castle. Meanwhile Lewyn does know everything about everything and gives Seliph exposition every time a castle is conquered.

Good point. Though I was speaking hyperbolicly when I said ''only'' one. But yes, now that I think about it Oifey indeed has a pretty lenghty absence. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Etrurian emperor

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

In fact I'd say my advice would be to move away from the Malledus types. Replace him with Caeda and Harin in Shadow Dragon, and with Lilina in Binding Blade. Get rid of archaic plot devices and replace them with more established characters. That said Malledus should of course remain as part of Marth's inner circle, just not the main speaking partner.

Funny thing about Malledus is that he is a Shadow Dragon exclusive character. Or, rather, a War of Shadows exclusive character. He doesn't appear in the Book 2/New Mystery of the Embelm story at all. There isn't even a cursory explanation for his absence. Jagen just fit the role he provided so *poof* Malledus stopped existing.

[Metal Flash]

18 hours ago, Hrothgar777 said:

(on that note I don't understand why MC is still a game over on Casual).

Because if they weren`t, you wouldn`t be able to fail in Casual Mode. 

As I haven`t played any FE games with these advisor characters save FE4, I have no strong feelings towards this type of character returning.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Funny thing about Malledus is that he is a Shadow Dragon exclusive character. Or, rather, a War of Shadows exclusive character. He doesn't appear in the Book 2/New Mystery of the Embelm story at all. There isn't even a cursory explanation for his absence. Jagen just fit the role he provided so *poof* Malledus stopped existing.

There is, actually. The Book 2 Chapter 1 intro says Malledus fell ill, so Jagen, who himself says has become too old to keep fighting, replaced him as tactician.

Curiously, New Mystery removed the line about Malledus falling ill and Jagen replacing him. It might've been moved to Kris-related dialogue, but it'd require combing the script.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

There is, actually. The Book 2 Chapter 1 intro says Malledus fell ill, so Jagen, who himself says has become too old to keep fighting, replaced him as tactician.

Curiously, New Mystery removed the line about Malledus falling ill and Jagen replacing him. It might've been moved to Kris-related dialogue, but it'd require combing the script.

Ah, well I was just going off memory. Whatever lines in either version that might have suggested his fate were lost on me.

[Eltosian Kadath]

On 8/9/2023 at 5:57 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

The only guy who cares about Thracia's plot likes August a lot.

Bah, people that care about Thracia's plot know that August needs his counterpart, Dryas.

 

21 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Marth also only talking to his strategist and the plot princess is why the presentation of shadow dragon felt so intensely stiff.

What makes Shadow Dragon feel so stiff is how much of it involves Marth silently being talked to. When he talks, and transforms it into a dialogue, it becomes far less

 

If they do bring a character like this back, I hope they take a page from FE5 and FE7 by having a trio to discuss things together.

 

[Etrurian emperor]

Path of Radiance at least tried to incorporate perma death into the writing to some extend. Tormod's support with Sothe turns out differently depending on whether Muarim is alive or not. I think newer games should try to replicate that. I noticed that games after Tellius instead avoided naming characters that might die in supports and instead mostly just namedropped characters like Lucina or Ivy that cannot die. 

[AnonymousSpeed]

I would like to re-iterate that, as a tactics game usually concerned with international politics, the personal desires and motives of Mercenary #3 are not actually important to the overarching plot to invade Finland and stop the Lohikäärme from being resurrected, so any good storytelling involving him will necessarily be relegated to subplots.

On 8/9/2023 at 9:36 PM, Hrothgar777 said:

That or multiple characters could be game-overs if they die on Classic (on that note I don't understand why MC is still a game over on Casual).

You could, but I think that goes against a level of self-efficacy which players can fairly expect by this point.

On 8/10/2023 at 12:27 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Strangely, it's more plausible to me that the same person can just repeatedly brush off death, than that every person fights to the point of disability-but-not-death. Canonically, our advisor could be kind of a coward, who admits to "going when the going gets tough", but still does all they can to help their Lord.

Y'know, that makes sense, I'd be alright with that. Only LTChads would deploy a shovebot who acts as reusable bait, but it would be fun.

I also don't remember if it was just you or someone else who said it, but base conversations and gaidens are a good way to lend some extra characterization to your scrubs.

On 8/10/2023 at 12:40 AM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

The spark was me getting Est killed and hearing her call out to her sisters. Hearing, not reading like we did in previous, un-voice acted games.

I will reject, a priori, any view of anything which says talking head games like Fire Emblem should have full voice acting.

aw yeah man i really love my fantasy epic looking like a low budget youtube commentary channel

I would legitimately rather read a book, the medium which is entirely about conveying ideas with reading.

On 8/10/2023 at 12:40 AM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Let me take these underpaid, contracted, un-credited writers, and turn them onto subjects more interesting than Support Chain #12 for bad Gimmick Character, 'what does Hanneman say when you cook with him', and 'What does Raphael think of Crimson Flower chapter 14 when you talk to him in the Monastery'.

I am not inclined to think giving more freedom and responsibility to writers who made bad lines will suddenly make them produce good lines.

On 8/10/2023 at 7:29 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

I’d not be rooting for a return to the strategist scenes because aside from August they didn’t make for interesting conversation.

The very fact that August and Dryas were good implies it's not an issue with concept but execution, which Fire Emblem has always had struggles with.

On 8/11/2023 at 6:17 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Bah, people that care about Thracia's plot know that August needs his counterpart, Dryas.

I have a confession to make.

I didn't remember why Dryas was named, so I left him out of the thread. I refused to look it up. I am a fake fan.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I didn't remember why Dryas was named, so I left him out of the thread. I refused to look it up. I am a fake fan.

Well if you played Thracia more than a few years ago he'd be Dorias to you. But fortunately his offical English name makes him easier to remember as all you have to think of is the very sanitary nuemonic Dry Ass (is that not technically a nuemonic? I don't care).