The Use Everybody Challenge

[Jotari]

I had this idea for a challenge playthrough of Fire Emblem, I thought it was kind of interesting. The goal is to extensively use every character in the game. In other words, every time you get a new unit, you have to stop using the oldest unit in your army. This means, contrary to typical Fire Emblem where you spend the game building a team for end game, you have no long term gains for your units. No matter how stat blessed a unit is, unless it's the lord, you have to drop them eventually until you get to the last dozen or so units in the game. This should theoretically influence playstyle in a lot of ways. The first I can think of is that staff grinding probably won't be a thing. The Mend staff uses are going to be worth more than the staffbot's exp. Depending on the game it would also mean staff access might be quite limited (Path of Radiance gives you like two early game staff users and then not another until Elincia). Promotion also won't be early, it'll be pretty much instant. There's no reason to hold off promoting at all. You'll also have to say goodbye to any high level supports unless it's done by number of map deployments, in which case you'll quickly build them up with your end game team. Like drafts, exceptions can also be made if you need to deploy specific units to recruit characters (but they can't fight).

I had the idea quite a while ago, but only now am I actually trying it out for the first time. With the game being New Mystery. Because A)It has the largest cast which means the most number of units likely to be completely untouched. B)I've only played it once. C)Reclassing means I won't have to deal with the staff access issue. I've only just reached Chapter 1 because the prologue was actually kicking my ass even though I'm only playing on Maniac (which is only the third hardest difficulty level). I'm also going to be counting Kris as a lord. I won't do a full chapter by chapter play log, as I intend this thread to be more about the general idea of the challenge run for Fire Emblem. I've never heard of anyone mention this as a way of playing Fire Emblem, though surely I'm not the first to come up with the idea. So tell me what you think of it, if you've ever tried something like this, and what interesting situations games could come up with if you were to try this challenge (obviously such a challenge doesn't apply to Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia or Genealogy of the Holy War).

Edited September 27, 2023 by Jotari

[Alastor15243]

(Nino's face lights up as she realizes people will actually use her now)

[Dayni]

I've a few thoughts with this and things that could make for complications, though I don't think most of them would be an issue.

The tendency with NMotE is that much of those later units are worse on higher difficulties right? So this might become too difficult to implement in LunaR or something, but I'm not an expert on it.

I also see 3H as a game that doesn't necessarily fit either, at least outside CF. Not merely do you choose to recruit most out of house characters, but this means you lose access to your units who'll show up in BBD and that's horrible as it is thank you. So recruiting units for paralogues could be a death sentence in the worst cases.

Thracia also has the concerns around Stamina to consider, RD with how the army splits affect it.... I can see these titles throwing spanners in the works. Maybe wouldn't matter with some tweaks or careful management (see Stamina).

And I'd be curious to see how kids get treated in Awakening or Fates. Would we go be order of unlocking them? Would it be harder to be certain of with Awakening's world map making some inaccessible for a while? For units like Donnel, Anna or Mozu could shifting when you recruit them be worth considering if it's possible to make them available for endgame? Or is doing that too risky and not worth the trouble (Recruiting Mozu later leaves the possibility she dies immediately) or not possible (the time limit for recruiting Anna)?

SD is interesting too, as you lose reliable long term projects before they can come into their own,, making the investment not worth the trouble, but if you're struggling to even clear the maps using items you'd rather keep for endgames units comes into play..... wrinkles indeed.

Honestly GBAFE becomes the most straightforward of the lot to me, focus on later recruits like Douglas or Zeiss, Renault or Nino or Saleh or Knoll. I kinda think these would be relatively straightforward (Harken's recruitment should be possible as Isadora should be available still). And if you have recruiters who would be benched for a unit you want, well..... there might be ways to make room.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

The Mend staff uses are going to be worth more than the staffbot's exp.

I see it, but for units in DSFE if they don't have the exp to use mend that becomes worthless regardless.

I doubt it matters in practice (experienced staffers join throughout) but the thought crossed my mind regardless.

18 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

(Nino's face lights up as she realizes people will actually use her now)

Me realising I have to bench Canas and can't get Canas-Nino support:

[ping]

There has actually been a CQ challenge run of this sort ongoing on Youtube for the past year or so, by a player named Zoran:

I don't remember the exact details, but the basic goal is to get everybody (including every possible child character) a certain amount of levels. Plus some additional stipulations - stuff like Corrin A supports with everybody, a Friends Seal class unlocked for everybody. The first video of that playlist should have the precise goals.

Very high production quality, too, so if somebody has the time (or menial tasks that require entertainment on the side), I can highly recommend these.

--

Personally, I started, but never finished a SacSto run that would fit into this category - a "Low XP" run, in which I was required to always field the characters with the lowest level, counting promoted classes as 20+Lv., of course. I had some extra rules to make it a bit easier on myself (namely, a lv.20 unpromoted character was allowed to be retired), but I stopped playing around two thirds through the game.

An even softer challenge to force some unit cycling that I did finish was a "Stamina run", in which no (non-lord, obv) character was allowed to be fielded twice in a row. That one wouldn't qualify as "using everybody", though, even with SacSto's relatively small cast.

[Jotari]

30 minutes ago, Punished Dayni said:

SD is interesting too, as you lose reliable long term projects before they can come into their own,, making the investment not worth the trouble, but if you're struggling to even clear the maps using items you'd rather keep for endgames units comes into play..... wrinkles indeed.

I feel like, for Shadow Dragon in particular, weapons are a lot more important than the actual units wielding them. Not that character stats are completely irrelevant, but if you have a Ridersbane with enough forge investment, it doesn't hugely matter who is using it as the enemy cavalry will die regardless. Though of course defensive stats wouldn't factor into that.

[Dayni]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I feel like, for Shadow Dragon in particular, weapons are a lot more important than the actual units wielding them. Not that character stats are completely irrelevant, but if you have a Ridersbane with enough forge investment, it doesn't hugely matter who is using it as the enemy cavalry will die regardless. Though of course defensive stats wouldn't factor into that.

I did have statboosters in mind with that statement, but forges being what they are you have me there, with the caveat of weapon ranks being an issue in niche cases maybe? (I don't expect d rank to be an issue often)

[Shadow Mir]

10 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

(Nino's face lights up as she realizes people will actually use her now)

Just Nino? I woulda thought you'd mention Renault or Karla.

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Just Nino? I woulda thought you'd mention Renault or Karla.

Oh god you're right. Actually using Karla XD At least Renault can use staves so he'd have definite utility.

[Eltosian Kadath]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

In other words, every time you get a new unit, you have to stop using the oldest unit in your army.

So more of a FIFO (First In, First Out) challenge. I have actually been thinking about a similar style challenge with Pokemon, doing some encounter routing prep work to see which games you could setup for each encounter getting at least one gym to play around in, or modifications you might need to get there.

 

11 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

(Nino's face lights up as she realizes people will actually use her now)

I did end up so depleted in my successful HHM no Lyn Mode ironman  that I was legitimately using Nino by the end, and if I had managed to recruit everyone (Erk died as a green unit, Florina died too early for me to recruit Fiora, Dart died just before I could get Geitz, and Bartre definitely died too early for Karla) it probably would count as an example for the challenge name.

 

11 hours ago, Punished Dayni said:

 

Honestly GBAFE becomes the most straightforward of the lot to me, focus on later recruits like Douglas or Zeiss, Renault or Nino or Saleh or Knoll. I kinda think these would be relatively straightforward (Harken's recruitment should be possible as Isadora should be available still). And if you have recruiters who would be benched for a unit you want, well..... there might be ways to make room.

I think Engage would be by far the most straightforward of the bunch, with people complaining all the time about how much stronger the latter recruits are.

 

11 hours ago, Punished Dayni said:

 

Thracia also has the concerns around Stamina to consider, RD with how the army splits affect it.... I can see these titles throwing spanners in the works. Maybe wouldn't matter with some tweaks or careful management (see Stamina).

Thracia sounds like an interesting one, especially with how you handle Stamina in the rules, whether it opens up a slot for anyone to use, or the next most recent unit available, or a forced empty slot. I could see interesting strats like intentionally exhausting units to get access to an earlier healer for key chapters for instance...

 

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Just Nino? I woulda thought you'd mention Renault or Karla.

I tried using Karla once...she is really bad for that late section of the game. Renault is fine, as you don't really need stats on a staff bot.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

So more of a FIFO (First In, First Out) challenge. I have actually been thinking about a similar style challenge with Pokemon, doing some encounter routing prep work to see which games you could setup for each encounter getting at least one gym to play around in, or modifications you might need to get there.

TFW you spend all your money on Super Repels so you're not obligated to swap your level 30 Quilava out for a level 3 Caterpie.

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Just Nino? I woulda thought you'd mention Renault or Karla.

Bold of you to assume Bartre is getting to level 5 Warrior in this design.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

At least Renault can use staves so he'd have definite utility.

Kishuna: ...

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

Promotion also won't be early, it'll be pretty much instant. There's no reason to hold off promoting at all.

Isn't the reason "I only have so many promotion items, and if I promote Lute now, I might be screwed on Phantom Ship where I have to bring unpromoted Artur"? Like, surely, you wouldn't want to promote willy-nilly, given that whoever you just promoted will only be deployable, like, a third of the time going forward.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ruh roh. Does the challenge demand recruiting every unit? Because how do you deal with the Maidens on the final map if you can't field their soul mates from earlier in the game? Who's going to talk down Nyna, Roshe? Or did they make it so that Kris can recruit all the wamen? 

[Shaky Jones]

Ah yes, this propaganda will surely convince others to finally use Frost in New Mystery. Good thinking.

 

FE3 and FE5 fans when growth boosters:

 

FE6 fans when they can't solo with Rutger for the 7th run in a row:

Nino when FE7 fans finally use her again:

FE8 fans replacing Seth with Duessel:

FE11 fans trading their 15 might ridersbane from Hardin to Palla:

FE12 fans realizing they have to use the entire wolfguard unit (they actually have to recruit them):

Gaiden, Genealogy, Radiant Dawn, and SoV fans:

3 Houses:

Ring Game:

[Eltosian Kadath]

16 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

TFW you spend all your money on Super Repels so you're not obligated to swap your level 30 Quilava out for a level 3 Caterpie.

You would never be able to get a Quilava to level 30 the way I was planning them, as I tried to keep the number of pokemon changes between badges to be less than 6, but otherwise as high of average as possible and low of variance as possibible, so for example the gen 1 routing I concocted looks like:

Spoiler

in {} represents the encounter being replaced, [] is each major badge, also instead of directly including every town with water, I instead have one city fishing encounter per rod.

Red/Blue
Pallet Gifts; Route 1; Route 2; Viridian Forest; Route 22; [Boulder Badge];
Route 3; Mt Moon {Pallet Gifts}; Route 4 {Route 1}; Route 24 {Route 2}; Route 25 {Viridian Forest}; [Cascade Badge];
Route 5 {Route 22}; Route 6 {Route 3};Old Rod {Mt. Moon}; Route 11 {Route 4}; Diglett Cave {Route 24}; [Thunder Badge];
Route 9 {Route 25}; Route 10 {Route 5}; Rock Tunnel {Route 6}; Route 8 {Old Rod}; Route 7 {Route 11}; Celadon Gifts {Diglett Cave}; [Rainbow Badge];
Pokemon Tower {Route 9}; Route 16 {Route 10}; Route 17 {Rock Tunnel}; Route 18 {Route 8}; Good Rod {Route 7}; Safari Zone {Celadon Gifts}; [Soul Badge];
Route 15 {Pokemon Tower}; Route 14 {Route 16}; Route 13 {Route 17}; Route 12 {Route 18}; Super Rod {Good Rod}; Saffron Gifts {Safari Zone}; [Marsh Badge];
Route 21 {Route 15}; Fossil {Route 14}; Pokemon Mansion {Route 13}; [Volcano Badge];
Route 20 {Route 12}; Seafoam Island {Super Rod}; Route 19 {Saffrom Gifts}; [Earth Badge];
Power Plant {Route 21}; Route 23 {Fossil}; Victory Road {Pokemon Mansion}; [Ending]

 

 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Thracia sounds like an interesting one, especially with how you handle Stamina in the rules, whether it opens up a slot for anyone to use, or the next most recent unit available, or a forced empty slot. I could see interesting strats like intentionally exhausting units to get access to an earlier healer for key chapters for instance...

Well you could kill units once you're done with them. How does Thracia handle stamina if your army count is below the minimum deployment amount?

48 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Isn't the reason "I only have so many promotion items, and if I promote Lute now, I might be screwed on Phantom Ship where I have to bring unpromoted Artur"? Like, surely, you wouldn't want to promote willy-nilly, given that whoever you just promoted will only be deployable, like, a third of the time going forward.

I suppose so. A much bigger army usage means much fewer promotion items go to around. Though, generally, I feel like a lot of games give you more promotion items total than you need. On a typical playthrough I feel like I only ever promote four, maybe five units while the number of promotion items could be twice that and basically become bullions.

47 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Ruh roh. Does the challenge demand recruiting every unit? Because how do you deal with the Maidens on the final map if you can't field their soul mates from earlier in the game? Who's going to talk down Nyna, Roshe? Or did they make it so that Kris can recruit all the wamen? 

Well it'd be up to individual choice, but I'm going to work through my New Mystery playthrough under the status of yes, full recruitment. Like draft rules, units who are needed to recruit can be deployed but have no weapons and cannot meat shield. Not sure how often it'd actually be an issue though as usually when you need to recruit someone they're among the more recent recruits because you're in the same general area. Though definitely if you're doing a purist style then you'd run into trouble with Shiida/Bantu. Binding Blade also has such a large cast that something like Sin to Sue might genuinely mill through enough recruitments even though there's only a handful of chapters between them. But I think full recruitment is better, as otherwise you could just not recruit units to not use them.

47 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

Ah yes, this propaganda will surely convince others to finally use Frost in New Mystery. Good thinking.

 

FE3 and FE5 fans when growth boosters:

 

FE6 fans when they can't solo with Rutger for the 7th run in a row:

Nino when FE7 fans finally use her again:

FE8 fans replacing Seth with Duessel:

FE11 fans trading their 15 might ridersbane from Hardin to Palla:

FE12 fans realizing they have to use the entire wolfguard unit (they actually have to recruit them):

Gaiden, Genealogy, Radiant Dawn, and SoV fans:

3 Houses:

Ring Game:

These are perfect XD Though you missed Path of Radiance (and FE1, but only one person cares about FE1). PoR was actually the game I was intending to try out when I first came up with this challenge a long time ago, because I feel like it has a strong prepromote cast but is also too easy so it might make for a fun balance mox. But the lack of physical access to it made it never manifest. So here I am playing the game with a million playable characters instead.

I'm going to toss an additional restriction on. No stat boosters on the lord unit (so Kris and Marth for me). Otherwise it could just end up being a lord solo. This makes the weighted choice to use them a lot more interesting (especially boots which I basically always give to my lord unit).

Edited September 28, 2023 by Jotari

[Shaky Jones]

34 minutes ago, Jotari said:

These are perfect XD Though you missed Path of Radiance (and FE1, but only one person cares about FE1).

FE1 fans every time a new unit joins (they have to trade in map)

FE9 fans being forced to bench Titania for Rolf

Awakening fan's live reaction to being told there's more than Chrom Robin pair up in the game (this is their 11th run):

Fates fans using an army of bosses over child units

49 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm going to toss an additional restriction on. No stat boosters on the lord unit (so Kris and Marth for me). Otherwise it could just end up being a lord solo. This makes the weighted choice to use them a lot more interesting (especially boots which I basically always give to my lord unit).

Jotari trying to kill Medeus (he couldn't get falchion)

Spoiler

I mean you do get Frost within the final 10 units, sooo just give him all spirit dusts and get a crit on Gharnef, assuming you can actually reach the village

Nagi's a good choice for stat boosters for actually one shotting dragons with enough strength, and her max speed with divinestone is 24 which avoids doubles from all non wyvern dragons (26 spd if raibow potion/spd bond), although you'll probably need boosted units for chapter 19. Clearly, you should give the boots to Sheema.

[Jotari]

48 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

FE1 fans every time a new unit joins (they have to trade in map)

FE9 fans being forced to bench Titania for Rolf

Awakening fan's live reaction to being told there's more than Chrom Robin pair up in the game (this is their 11th run):

Fates fans using an army of bosses over child units

Jotari trying to kill Medeus (he couldn't get falchion)

  Hide contents

I mean you do get Frost within the final 10 units, sooo just give him all spirit dusts and get a crit on Gharnef, assuming you can actually reach the village

Nagi's a good choice for stat boosters for actually one shotting dragons with enough strength, and her max speed with divinestone is 24 which avoids doubles from all non wyvern dragons (26 spd if raibow potion/spd bond), although you'll probably need boosted units for chapter 19. Clearly, you should give the boots to Sheema.

Frost isn't the only possiblity, you can always reclass someone else into Sage. Though I'm not sure who the best choice would be from the final ten units (Michalis revenge kill on Starlight? He went to all that trouble to get it, would be cool for him to use it. Though you'd probably need to hoard arms scrolls for something like that).

Edited September 28, 2023 by Jotari

[Samz707]

I am wondering how difficult it would be in Houses, CF at least skips HBD.

While not the same, when I did my second run of 3H and played Blue Lions Hard, I recruited and used 25 units, I actually attempted to use everyone (Technically 26 but I benched Anna.) and while I'm not sure what the levels are, I did manage to max out every available support (Even if the DLC Wayseer helped out near the end.) and got everyone to around level 20 at least.

For this run I was constantly swapping out units with my only big "rule" being "No Ashen Wolves in the main story/paralogues". (since they were DLC characters and I wanted to do these as intended for my first time.) 

I can only assume it'd probably unironically be easier (Unless you play Maddening) since you're not constantly swapping out units like I was.

[Shaky Jones]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Frost isn't the only possiblity, you can always reclass someone else into Sage. Though I'm not sure who the best choice would be from the final ten units (Michalis revenge kill on Starlight? He went to all that trouble to get it, would be cool for him to use it. Though you'd probably need to hoard arms scrolls for something like that).

You could do that, but why deny Frost this one opportunity he's ever gonna get? Don't do him dirty man. He deserves some love.

Sides, he needs 2 arms scrolls for excalibur gaming in chapter 19 when those dracos come about and the wyvern dragons later on. Course in maniac, enough bow units might do just fine and you can grind a rank to use only one. Heck, if you're willing to cheese to get away with 72+ units, you can grind tome rank on his joining chapter with all those unarmed bishops. 

4 hours ago, Samz707 said:

I am wondering how difficult it would be in Houses, CF at least skips HBD.

While not the same, when I did my second run of 3H and played Blue Lions Hard, I recruited and used 25 units, I actually attempted to use everyone (Technically 26 but I benched Anna.) and while I'm not sure what the levels are, I did manage to max out every available support (Even if the DLC Wayseer helped out near the end.) and got everyone to around level 20 at least.

For this run I was constantly swapping out units with my only big "rule" being "No Ashen Wolves in the main story/paralogues". (since they were DLC characters and I wanted to do these as intended for my first time.) 

I can only assume it'd probably unironically be easier (Unless you play Maddening) since you're not constantly swapping out units like I was.

Fortress Knight Emblem.

[Saint Rubenio]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Frost isn't the only possiblity, you can always reclass someone else into Sage.

No. Use Frost.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shaky Jones said:

You could do that, but why deny Frost this one opportunity he's ever gonna get? Don't do him dirty man. He deserves some love.

This one opportunity he's ever gonna get because I might be the first and only person in the history of Fire Embelm to actually have Frost kill Gharnef?

[Shaky Jones]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

This one opportunity he's ever gonna get because I might be the first and only person in the history of Fire Embelm to actually have Frost kill Gharnef?

Well that's just disrespectful. Ruben's right there.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Shaky Jones

[Saint Rubenio]

I am the president of Frost's fanclub. There's even a couple of us.

...I don't believe I've had him kill Gharnef, though. For shame, me.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I am the president of Frost's fanclub. There's even a couple of us.

...I don't believe I've had him kill Gharnef, though. For shame, me.

My point stands! Starlight shine bright, overcome Marth's loss with Winter Frost.

[Saint Rubenio]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

My point stands! Starlight shine bright, overcome Marth's loss with Winter Frost.

I support this.

[Shadow Mir]

On 9/27/2023 at 9:28 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

I tried using Karla once...she is really bad for that late section of the game.

Yeah. She has to be one of the biggest cases of "what were they thinking?!". Considering what you have to do to get her, I'd expect her to not suck so bad...

On 9/27/2023 at 6:48 PM, Jotari said:

Oh god you're right. Actually using Karla XD At least Renault can use staves so he'd have definite utility.

Nino should not be too bad to train unless you're playing Hector hard mode, so there's that. Karla, on the other hand, requires actively training one of the worst units in the game just to get, and the results are NOT worth it. FFS, several sword characters that joined well before her have better base stats.