I Can't Believe It's not SFMM4! - Game Over

[Darros]

K first off ##Unvote

Darros made a good point at #116 where GP & Pheonix seem to be wanting to clear GP as soon as they can. It almost feels like Pheonix is trying to buddy up with someone who's claiming town to get towncred, maybe? Will need to keep an eye on it.

I think it's very bizarre behaviour. We have no reason to clear GP at the moment. The first thoughts of the game shouldn't be "who can we clear!" I'm unsure if Pheonix is doing that or not though, we'll have to see how he responds when he makes another post.

in retrospect Iris sounded pretty defensive just now even when I didn't even change my vote to her (or him)

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
So you're getting a scumread on Iris but not doing anything about it? But where is the scumread really, if you think that's a defensive post you probably haven't read very many defensive posts in your lifetime.

Meanwhile I don't like how it looks like you're trying to start a wagon against me.

In what world does one vote = a wagon. No part of his post said "everybody else vote Frosty too!"

THE KNEEJERK.

Also when someone votes you they're trying to make a wagon on you, because they think you're scum and want you lynched #logic.

That. Is. Not. A. Wagon.

That post is so off I don't even think it's scummy.

I'm wary of the post, I wouldn't dismiss it, but I don't think it's conclusive evidence to confirm Frosty as scum either. But if you're getting scumvibes, why are you ignoring them completely? This probably should be raising red flags instead.

Since we seem to be voting each other with such flimsy reasoning I thought I'd get in on the action too. =3

You're acting ridiculous. You called someone out then didn't vote on them, then when someone called out your behaviour you OMGUS'd and then called their reasoning flimsy. And if you're admitting to voting "with flimsy reasoning" that is a bad idea. If you know your reasoning isn't good, don't vote with it!

>assuminggate
what the fuck those posts are hurting my brain okay

I think prodding people who haven't shown up is acceptable in, like, the first hour or two of the game; after that, it reads like a vote park. As town, it's an empty vote, as your vote won't influence what time I get back. As scum, it's a safe way to have a vote on someone without committing to a read. I'll take into account that voting for people who hadn't shown up was acceptable way back when, but I don't like the logic behind it.

You're correct, also I haven't really played since way back when, but I was under the impression that having a unused vote is a Very Bad Thing. At least it seemed that way the last few games I've played in.

Why does it have to be a role cop?

I have my doubts an alignment cop would tell us if GP is actually beloved or not. Beloved roles tend to be town I believe, but who knows not me

I have a worse feeling from bearclaw's reaction to the Shinori/FFM exchange than either of those two. It feels like he's trying to push FFM without committing to a read on him, which is about the scummiest thing in the thread so far.

Not quite the same feeling I got from his post, I felt that bearclaw is trying to dismiss FFM's actions entirely, by some "that's so scummy it's not" logic.

well don't I feel special

you know posting content rather than self pity may help us out just a tad more

If I waited instead and there ended up being a wagon on me, for me to say "you shouldn't lynch me or town will get X drawback" sounds far more like a fakeclaim than if I'd simply got it out of the way now voluntarily. I don't really see how it's different from a miller and such, but eh, I guess the consideration's subjective and potentially WIFOMy anyway.

I think you did the right thing. This is the type of thing we'd need to know immediately so we don't mislynch a beloved and potentially completely fuck over the town.

@FFM: Why didn't you state that dislike for Bear earlier then when you were conversing with him and me at that time?

Because he only actually bothered posting opinions when he was asked for them.

ISOs are up in the OP.

YAS BBM ily

Either egging someone on to shoot him (bait), or classic redirecting away from himself like he did in P3 via GP~ and why would you assume that a vig would've shot you by now if that's the case, Kop?

I'm like 90% sure his post was a joke

What is this supposed to be? Also Nikki Minaj is an awful person and therefore makes great memes

im cryin


Personally, I'm leaning on a pretty big scumread towards Frosty right now, he's done little to contribute effectively until he was asked, then when asked for scumreads he finally said Elie, who conveniently also voted him at the beginning of the game.
##Vote: Frosty Fire Mage

And if I see the word eagon misused one more time I'm gonna actually cry

[Da Bear]

FFM said that it looked like Shinori was trying to make a wagon on her. That's why I said that first thing darros quoted. By "off" I meant her logic not the read I was getting from her.

@Eclipse: I can see why you would feel that way, I re-read the thread and I have to agree my posts look very non-commital, I'll try to make some commitment later tonight (it's my brother's birthday today so I'll not really be around except for the occasional phone-post like this one) ddon't have much else to say about this.

[Iris]

re: ffm

actually i'm feeling pretty good about ffm/shinori atm. pretty good meaning, not scummy. well probably more null in ffm's case, since apparently he's new. anyways, wrt shinori, i think it's a pretty good sign he's trying so hard (iirc he didn't do that as scum, but idr). poly also sorta jumped on this, but not sure how to feel about that.

re: refa

i mentioned that because i wanted refa to respond to it, pretty simple. and he did. my only reasoning is meta (and i don't know half the kids int his game/have played in a while) so that's why there were a lot of idks. either that, or that's how i type now.

re: elieson

this sounds really bad but i'm going to omgus elieson. actually it's not an omgus so let me explain. we started mafia around the same time, so i found it out of place that his tone is lecturing/condescending. also i think it's mostly because this is bullshit reasoning/a bit of a scumtell because scum's reads are generally CONTRIVED and that's the gut feel i'm getting from elieson atm.

##unvote

##elieson

re: everyone else

i'm going to iso later when i get back, but i can only remember like 5 people (out of 15) actually playing in this game which is bad/when i typed up this post everything above is all i remembered. not sure if everyone is trying to lay low or what.

[Elieson]

man, I'm gonna hafta drop the RP i guess. OK, I'll come back to it later then

---

re: elieson

this sounds really bad but i'm going to omgus elieson. actually it's not an omgus so let me explain. we started mafia around the same time, so i found it out of place that his tone is lecturing/condescending. also i think it's mostly because this is bullshit reasoning/a bit of a scumtell because scum's reads are generally CONTRIVED and that's the gut feel i'm getting from elieson atm.

I

What?

Elie sounds like he's lecturing me, which is something I haven't seen him do since the last time we mafia'd together [however long ago] so he's starting to look like scum

and my vote on you is contrived? ISO yourself and look for anything prior to #203 that indicates an attempt to reasonably justify your vote on Refa. I'm not even trying to pick apart your refa case in the least.

Seriously, it looks like you're just struggling to justify keeping your vote on Refa up until... well, now (where you're on me now). So, unless I'm misreading your reads on the game, it seems like right now, your only "read" is a waffle on Refa maybe/maybe not being scum, and you're voting for Refa because you're reading him in a waffly way.

[Phoenix01]

That post is so off I don't even think it's scummy.

Read back to what happened overnight and I just don't get this post. If it's off, that should tip you off that that person's pretty scummy and is worth more looking in to. It sounds pretty hypocritical to me by that logic.

also regarding Frosty and his post about "everyone's voting with flimsy reasoning so I might as well". That's only going to get you lynched faster, putting votes on people without reasoning is pretty scummy. Doing something "because other people did it" is a pretty terrible excuse.

@Darros: I think that's kinda my personality, because I'm usually a pretty cautious/conservative guy and that translates into the game as well. Also tbh I'm not sure why people are jumping so much about my suggestion, it was only that.

[Iris]

@elieson:

my vote for refa was rvs; there was no struggle in keeping my vote on him, since he was the only one i had a scummy-ish read on atm. i didn't see a satisfactory response until he responded in his last post.

my vote stays for aforementioned reasons since i'm still uneasy about you.

if you want to look at voteparkers, you should look at half the game. for example, also wow, can't believe i missed bearclaw's claim sort of thing. not sure what to think of that, but his vote's "parked" on darros, and i'm not giving him shit for it?

-

so i just isoed everyone, and it doesn't look like there's much worth mentioning, since standard rvs things/i just realized some people were in this game.

- @bearclaw, when you get back, reads please, i think there's been enough time to form a couple.

- @ffm, i know you unvoted shinori, but how do you feel about him right now, really?

[Shinori]

Euklyd still has yet to tell me why a Refa wagon is the best choice.

Actually, Newb!Town can be defensive if they have a Power Role that they deem "too valuable to lose". That's the vibe I'm getting, anyways. FFM please don't confirm if this is true.

Good old meta read tells me Poly is town, because somehow he's done more than most of the playerbase and he'd be a lot lazier as scum.

Dunno what to think of Eurykins' post. There's a lot of words but she's not really saying a lot. I feel like she would have more content as town, however considering the ED1 filler I guess I can't blame her for that.

I never thought I'd say this but I think Shinori is like the most obvious town player in this game.

I don't think FFM stating Iris was defensive and then not voting for it was scummy. Like, I don't agree with the conclusion, but I can see why a townie would think that. As for the not voting, well I'm pretty sure several people have stated minor suspicions and clung on to their RVS votes regardless. FFM doesn't ping me any more in this regard. His vote on Shinori was pretty bad, but it's so obviously bad that I don't see why he'd do it as scum. No, screw your WIFOM, it doesn't even make him out to be townier. Also he makes a good point about Elieson; his reaction to and subsequent vote on FFM felt very...forced.

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

This is the important stff from Refa's post while cutting out the stuff not as important. And some of this could use some more info. The post though mostly just consists of who his town reads are with the last paragraph containing his case on Elie, which albeit is small but is probably the only thing that matters since telling us 4 of your town reads doesn't tell us your scum reads and doesn't matter all that much. I kinda felt like he forced himself to make this post as big as he did.

Darros's post also had a lot of the same Issue Refa had. It's got a lot of stuff that doesn't matter in it. However I'm leaving most of it in there because it's directly related to his FFM case. Some of my replies will be in the quote box in bold.

K first off ##Unvote

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
So you're getting a scumread on Iris but not doing anything about it? But where is the scumread really, if you think that's a defensive post you probably haven't read very many defensive posts in your lifetime.

1.

In what world does one vote = a wagon. No part of his post said "everybody else vote Frosty too!"

That. Is. Not. A. Wagon.

2.

I'm wary of the post, I wouldn't dismiss it, but I don't think it's conclusive evidence to confirm Frosty as scum either. But if you're getting scumvibes, why are you ignoring them completely? This probably should be raising red flags instead.

You're acting ridiculous. You called someone out then didn't vote on them, then when someone called out your behaviour you OMGUS'd and then called their reasoning flimsy. And if you're admitting to voting "with flimsy reasoning" that is a bad idea. If you know your reasoning isn't good, don't vote with it!

Not quite the same feeling I got from his post, I felt that bearclaw is trying to dismiss FFM's actions entirely, by some "that's so scummy it's not" logic.

3.

Personally, I'm leaning on a pretty big scumread towards Frosty right now, he's done little to contribute effectively until he was asked, then when asked for scumreads he finally said Elie, who conveniently also voted him at the beginning of the game.
##Vote: Frosty Fire Mage

And if I see the word eagon misused one more time I'm gonna actually cry

1. He never really said he had a scum read on Iris. Don't jump to conclusions.

2. The second part replying to Bear wasn't needed and I felt like you skimmed or something because he was also saying it wasn't a wagon basically.

3. This is kind of important I feel. And it's basically how I felt Bear was reacting towards FFM.

Darros who are you other scum reads? I've cut out most of the less important parts of your last post because there was a lot of it. Whereas I agree with a fair amount of your thoughts you really only stated one solid scum read. Who else is really on your mind?

[Shinori]

I'll reply to the Elie/iris stuff in a bit but I kind of want to make something to eat first.

[Da Bear]

@Iris: I'm trying, haven't had time for much more than skims and replying to stuff said to me as of yet, I have one or two townreads from that but I'd rather not out them in case I change my mind when I do stuff tonight.

Read back to what happened overnight and I just don't get this post. If it's off, that should tip you off that that person's pretty scummy and is worth more looking in to. It sounds pretty hypocritical to me by that logic.

By "off" I meant her logic not the read I was getting from her.

umm yeah.

[Phoenix01]

@Iris: I'm trying, haven't had time for much more than skims and replying to stuff said to me as of yet, I have one or two townreads from that but I'd rather not out them in case I change my mind when I do stuff tonight.

umm yeah.

So you don't find her suspicious because of that?

[Junk]

meh I don't think ffm is scum. Feels more like FFM is a new player as well ^^. First of all I seriously doubt scum would make it there posts so obviously scummy like.

@Iris: I'm trying, haven't had time for much more than skims and replying to stuff said to me as of yet, I have one or two townreads from that but I'd rather not out them in case I change my mind when I do stuff tonight.

umm yeah.

what do you mean by this?

[Junk]

oops forgot to post the rest. FFM 's vote on Shinori was plain bad but I have a feeling that had to do with the fact that there was much content at the time. Agreed with Shinori on the fact that FFM did not necessarily say that Iris was a scumread. But there is something weird I noticed here on shinori's two posts down below.

That's just how Iris is, and even so I don't think it sounded too defensive. Literally was just stating a pet peeve. And if you think she is being defensive are you going to vote her over it?

It sounds like you think she is scum but you aren't doing anything about it. Scared to vote? Don't worry I got chu.

##Unvote:

##Vote: FFM

1. He never really said he had a scum read on Iris. Don't jump to conclusions.

2. The second part replying to Bear wasn't needed and I felt like you skimmed or something because he was also saying it wasn't a wagon basically.

3. This is kind of important I feel. And it's basically how I felt Bear was reacting towards FFM.

Darros who are you other scum reads? I've cut out most of the less important parts of your last post because there was a lot of it. Whereas I agree with a fair amount of your thoughts you really only stated one solid scum read. Who else is really on your mind?

This seems a bit weird right here as he votes FFM. Says that FFM thinks that iris was scum but was not voting for him then tells darros FFM never stated he had a scumread on iris. Seems a bit contradictory? I believe the reason he voted for FFM was a for reaction right? But I want to ask, what are your overall thoughts on FFM Shinori? Do you think he is scum or not scum?

[Shinori]

Currently no I actually feel that the FFM isn't scum. And it's not because he's a new player because if I remember correctly he has played in a few games before. He should know the basics by now Junko.

##unvote:

However to point out something:

"This seems a bit weird right here as he votes FFM. Says that FFM thinks that iris was scum but was not voting for him then tells darros FFM never stated he had a scumread on iris."

I never specifically said that he was saying that Iris was scum either. This is the important part about what I said that you quoted:

And if you think she is being defensive are you going to vote her over it?

It sounds like you think she is scum but you aren't doing anything about it.

Basically this was me ASKING him if he thought Iris was scummy for what she posted, just without going "Is Iris scummy for that?" I wanted to know how he had really felt from Iris's post. I mean if he thought Iris was scummy he would have most likely voted her after my post in question. Instead he chose to OMGUS me for absolutely no reason and never really respond about Iris past that. So in regarts to this: @FFM: What are your thoughts on Iris at the moment? I feel this should be something you would pay attention to since the person you are voting is currently voting for Iris and vice versa.

Moving on: Bearclaw could you do something?

You've been around you're reading the posts but yet you have ZERO reads. You even say it here:

but you aren't explaining yourself you're forcing a conclusion that you made about someone else's reaction test on others.

I don't have reads yet, the off-topic section threw me a loop.

The off-topic stuff has been not around for a bit you have to have some sort of reads by now. If you were to lynch someone who would it be?

Reading the Elie/Iris stuff and I'll make a response to that in my next post. Euklyd still isn't doing much and I'd request that he do something as well. He also has basically no reads except for his RVS vote on Refa which he says is a good wagon(Still waiting for him to tell me as to why it's a good wagon). Also still need Darros to respond to my stuffz. And would like Refa to do more because frankly I didn't really like his last post. I made a small comment on this before but basically it was a massive list of town reads which doesn't help us.

That being said for now I shall: ##Vote: Bearclaw

[Shinori]

Fuck I originally quoted 4 posts, 2 from elie and 2 from Iris but there isn't really much point in it. The vote Elie put on Iris is weak considering it seemed like he had better reasoning on FFM. I don't know what to say regarding these two. Elie seemed to get a bit emotional in his response towards Iris and I don't really like that. Honestly though I felt both of the initial votes on each of them were weak however Elie looks worse at the moment in my eyes.

It kind of seemed like he lost his cool I guess in his reaction towards Iris. I don't really think any town(besides me) generally lose their cool so easy for such little reasoning. FoS on Elie here.

[FrostyFireMage]

@Koph: Jokingly voting for me in RVS and then conveniently keeping his vote on me when it was apparent my playing was controversial? And then barely adding anything more? Don't like it.

@Darros: Funny that you should criticize me for not contributing when your post pretty much said nothing new apart from snarking

Euklyd, Dragonfang and Phoenix need to post more. I've got a slight town read from Shinori.

Iris' vote on Elieson was pretty weak but she admitted she was OMGUSing. Although Elie's reaction was indeed pretty incensed. Maybe he was feeling pressure due my vote + Refa's and Iris's.

Imma change my vote to Kopf until he posts something meaningful.

##Unvote

##Vote: Kopfjager

[Junk]

@Koph: Jokingly voting for me in RVS and then conveniently keeping his vote on me when it was apparent my playing was controversial? And then barely adding anything more? Don't like it.

@Darros: Funny that you should criticize me for not contributing when your post pretty much said nothing new apart from snarking

Euklyd, Dragonfang and Phoenix need to post more. I've got a slight town read from Shinori.

Iris' vote on Elieson was pretty weak but she admitted she was OMGUSing. Although Elie's reaction was indeed pretty incensed. Maybe he was feeling pressure due my vote + Refa's and Iris's.

Imma change my vote to Kopf until he posts something meaningful.

##Unvote

##Vote: Kopfjager

wut? You seem to be most suspicious of elieson in this post but then proceed to vote for kopf for not posting anything meaningful. Dude what are you doing? I hope this vote switches

[Junk]

wow did not get to finish my post there. I was going to say I hope that vote switches later on or you come up with better reason to vote for kopflajer because that vote is just not good.

[Refa]

I feel like this is a repeat of FAYZ and nobody seems to get the fact that it was obviously a joke (only I did, I was just tooling around). Heck, I wasn't even pushing for a patented Elie's Trademark Intentionally Scummy Reaction Test.

Something though, that seriously stands out to me right now, is that Iris is doing nothing of value with her posts. She's kiiinda sitting on a votepark for Refa from back in RVS, and now she's trying to justify her vote, post vote, with waffly reasons, unprovoked. If you want your vote to be somewhere that you find it useful, you put it on a scumread, not on someone you can't clearly read via your case of

##Unvote

##Vote Iris

If nobody got the fact that it was a joke, perhaps it wasn't as obvious as you thought.

Shinori put it best when he mentioned that your vote conflicted with the strength of your cases. Like I can understand your initial reasoning, but after Iris voted for you, your reason for voting just is not there nor have you updated your scumread to mention why you're still voting her.

Just skimming stuff now. Will post content in some hours.

Refa, why do you think Shinori's obvious town?

A combination of him being the most active player (activity isn't townie in and of itself, but Shinori tends to be lazier as scum), doing a good deal of scumhunting, and hasn't done anything scummy? I thought it was pretty obvious, but maybe that's just me.

Yeah, but... it's still not that great of a role. Still, I don't see GP making that claim as scum, so... uh.

I don't believe GP's claim is a fakeclaim, but why do you think that she's not scum because of it?

This is the important stff from Refa's post while cutting out the stuff not as important. And some of this could use some more info. The post though mostly just consists of who his town reads are with the last paragraph containing his case on Elie, which albeit is small but is probably the only thing that matters since telling us 4 of your town reads doesn't tell us your scum reads and doesn't matter all that much. I kinda felt like he forced himself to make this post as big as he did.

Firstly, I only had three townreads. Secondly, mentioning my townreads now makes it easier to read me as the game progresses and people start to flip; I get where you're coming from, but this really is a difference in ideology. And while FYPOV I can see why my townreads on Polydeuces and you might not mean much, I definitely disagree WRT FFM. He's the leading wagon, I have every reason to comment on him and give my thoughts even if I'm not voting him. Especially so actually, if there are other people I'd prefer to get lynched over him.

Is noone else bothered that Phoenix hasn't made a vote all day despite having some pretty clear suspicions?

FFM's vote on Kopjager is pretty bad. Pressure votes at this stage accomplish nothing, because you're not applying much pressure at all. Also Junko brought up a good point WRT his case on Elieson being stronger than his Kopjager case yet his vote...Way to kill that town read.

Going to look into Darros, I feel like he's waterwalked off of my radar.

[FrostyFireMage]

For the record, I've only participated in three games of Mafia: in two of them I was lynched pretty early and the other was my first game so please excuse my scrubbiness.

[euklyd]

[spoiler=re: Frosty Fire Mafia]FFM is basically being ~completely obvious scum~
there's the OMGUS, self-meta/analysis, some pretty blatant voteparking on inactives, complete unwillingness to give scumreads, and more inactive voteparking.
like holy shit

As much as I normally hate "wow that's too blatantly scummy to be scum" defenses, this is ridiculous. I have no idea about this and it pisses me off.
I feel like atm FFM is a safe wagon that doesn't really tell us much about people voting for him, simply because it's ~so easy~ to park on.

tl;dr - highly ambivalent, possibly 2scum4scum, wagon is too 'easy' to tell me anything with associative reads. would vig/10.

@Shinori - The Refa wagon is/was the best one because I wanted my scumbuddy lynched so that I would get loads of towncred from the bus and be able to coast to victory.
I'm pretty sure I already said this.
Before you ask, no, there is not any other reason. is it not enough that I want to lynch someone who is, FMPOV, confirmed scum? Also much easier than making up cases on townies.

I'm rereading basically everyone as we speak, but I want to get something out sooner rather than later.

[Green Poet]

Imma change my vote to Kopf until he posts something meaningful.

I thought you were suspicious of Iris and Elieson? Why is a prodvote warranted here?

Is noone else bothered that Phoenix hasn't made a vote all day despite having some pretty clear suspicions?

I'm surprised he hasn't, though he did say something about being cautious because he wasn't entirely sure yet. It's similar to bearclaw, who had issues with FFM's play, just not enough to merit a vote. I don't think this sort of behavior is scummy, really.

- @ffm, i know you unvoted shinori, but how do you feel about him right now, really?

The way this is worded feels like you're trying to encourage FFM into listing suspicions about Shinori?

I don't really like this FFM wagon; he's far more active than he was in P3 and is posting content as opposed to queries about game mechanics, so I think it's far more likely he's just making common newb plays. I think Refa seems fairly town-ish, though this is largely judging from his activity level and meta.

If I really had to guess scum at this time, I'd point between either Iris or Elieson, though this is admittedly a weak feeling I'm getting here. The reasons they're exchanging for voting each other don't seem very telling to me ("contrived reasoning/condescension" as a scumtell; waffling a vote on Refa appearing scummy as early as ED1?) and I wouldn't be confident trying to see from either side of their argument.

It feels. . . artificial, I suppose, though not necessarily scummy.

[Phoenix01]

Because everyone wants to see me cry. ;-;

lolmeta

What has Shinori done that makes him obvtown up to now? I mean, I'm not seeing him as scummy, but I'd like to know why this is the case.

Yeah, but... it's still not that great of a role. Still, I don't see GP making that claim as scum, so... uh.

Still not liking Frosty. Will re-read Iris to see if I find any content or if Elie's right on his read of her.

idk why you're discarding metagaming so readily. Sure, it isn't facts and sure isn't the most reliable thing around, but people have habits and it can also be used to help narrow down a field/make more informed guesses.

Also is it just me or is it strange that Junko's posts never seem to finish.

[FrostyFireMage]

I thought you were suspicious of Iris and Elieson? Why is a prodvote warranted here?

I figured I should examine the players with little to votes in case they were scum trying to stay out of the spotlight.

[BBM]

VOTALS

Elieson (3) - Green Poet, Refa, Iris

FFM (3) - Poly, Eurykins, Darros

Refa (2) - Junko, Euklyd

Bearclaw (2) - Eclipse, Shinori

Darros (1) - Bearclaw

Kopfjager (1) - FFM

Iris (1) - Elieson

Not Voting (2) - Phoenix, Kopfjager

With 15 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch at deadline and 8 votes to hammer. You have 43 hours and 45 minutes left. Phase ends at 5 PM EST on Sunday (10 PM GMT).

Edited April 26, 2014 by BigPlaysMeteor

[MRDRHAWK]

I don't believe GP's claim is a fakeclaim, but why do you think that she's not scum because of it?

I highly doubt someone of GP's experience would even know what kind of role that is, especially as scum. Ergo, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for now, since other people (Frosty chief among them) stand out more for worse reasons.

idk why you're discarding metagaming so readily. Sure, it isn't facts and sure isn't the most reliable thing around, but people have habits and it can also be used to help narrow down a field/make more informed guesses.

I have bad experience as meta; plus, I've only been scum, like, once before in NOC (though to be fair I was buddying with him during that one game), and I tend to disapprove of meta anyways unless it's super-different from how someone usually plays.