Regarding the canon of their own games, who is the most powerful Smash character?

[Original Alear]

Uh, Robin can be killed by others. He can lose all his HP in a battle and die just like anyone else. He gives a gameover if that happens. And Robin can only wield a Ragnell that has lost it's blessing and is all banged up if he used it.

I think there's a chance Ragnell has some blessing still on it, since it still yields a defense bonus. Not sure, though.

Ike, at his maxed level, borrowed a goddess's power in order to defeat another goddess. Chrom, at his max level, could only put a dragon to sleep, even with some borrowed power of his own (from Naga). I'd think that the former is a bit more impressive.

Considering that Naga denies divinity, I think that Yune and Ashera are probably more powerful. I ascribe a lot of FE10's final swing to Yune, but I guess there's probably a fair argument for Ike getting credit as well since Yune chose him (if it didn't matter who did it, why not just have Micaiah blast her?). It might have just been because he was wielding a sword that was blessed by both Yune and Ashera. Even Dheginsea had Ashera's blessing only.

EDIT-Also, the goddesses come back "fused" together in RD's ending, so how is that different from what Chrom did? Besides the fact that Grima is straight out evil while Ashunera is hopefully going to be a force for good.

And did NO ONE read what I said about FE lore saying that Ike was the mightiest hero of them all?

Within-game-lore is not necessarily always correct. Can you provide an indication as to where this statement was made in a game or wherever (I don't doubt it was said somewhere, I just don't remember running into a line like that and wanna know). I'm not saying it isn't the case, but for my part I always got the feeling that Caineghis was probably stronger than Ike (I guess Cain is more of a king than a hero though).

At the moment I definitely agree with the people arguing that Grima's power shouldn't be counted for Robin.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Severlan

[BrightBow]

Uh, why do the things that these characters did at level 1 matter at all?

My point is that Chrom (any by extension Robin) started about as strong as Ike ended up as. And they both got far more powerful from there. Like, early or even midgame Robin wouldn't be able to even scratch endgame enemies.

Ike, at his maxed level, borrowed a goddess's power in order to defeat another goddess. Chrom, at his max level, could only put a dragon to sleep, even with some borrowed power of his own (from Naga). I'd think that the former is a bit more impressive.

The dragon in question is a god. Sure, Narga claimed they weren't gods. But she did is one to talk considering that she has:

-her own religion, just like Ashera.

-Speaks to her "voice", just like Ashera

-is immortal, just like Ashera apparently, given the eventual reappearance of Ashunera. Of course it's not like being more divine then Ashera helps Narga's case.

-And she puts humans through lethal tests before considering them worthy. Divine, if dickish.

-And she affects the world of mortals from another plane using powers that are beyond the abilities of humans.

-And she gives Chrom's group the title "Awakeners", making them essentially her "Chosen Ones".

This is in a strong contrast to Radiant Dawn, were the entire point of part 4 was that gods aren't all that different from humans. So I'm pretty sure there isn't that much of a difference between the likes of Ashera/Yune and Narga/Grima.

Like, seriously:

Naga: "Neither of us bears the power to destroy the other utterly."

...

Ashera: "Yune, do not be absurd… You cannot overthrow me, just as I cannot overthrow you."

Let's put it this way: Narga claims they both aren't gods while Grima claims he is one. I think there is more to back up Grima's side of the argument.

And as for Ike beating Ashera, given that Ashunera was eventually reborn, it seems like Ike was not able to completely destroy her, putting his victory around the level as that of Chrom and Robin who did the deed without a additional divine power boast beyond a blessed blade. The only edge I see Ike having is Ragnell since Robin does not have a personal weapon.

[riariadne]

Actually in hindsight there's basically no reason Link (at least the regular version) should be as low as he is. He also has possessed the full Triforce at certain points in the Zelda chronology (Skyward Sword is the first that comes to mind but I think he might've had it elsewhere too). While we're at it, Skyward Sword Zelda is a goddess in human form, so she should also rank somewhere. Her powers are a lot weakened but she's probably somewhere around Mario or whatever.

EDIT and shoutouts to Fierce Deity Link or something i dunno

EDIT2 oh okay Zelda is on the list right about Mario I just missed her

Edited January 22, 2015 by Reinfleche

[Carter]

...lol, now you think Mario, Luigi, and Bowser could defeat Robin, but you think Ike can't?

your arrogance gives me anxiety

I'd add more help on why Zelda should be up high on the list, but I think others here have already shown why! If only this tier list were how strong the characters were in Smash... I'd love playing more as Zelda than I already do.

Hmm, I'd say Peach is... yeah. C / D tier. She HAS saved Mario, after all! And she can show to protect herself at times, but she is nowhere near Zelda (if we're comparing the two princesses). I mean, one princess has magical connections to goddess and the power to help Link slay a beast (Light Arrows). And the other is our typical damsel in distress. Peach can float, but I don't think that helps in this case XD.

I'm probably wrong about my Peach facts, but I didn't really read too much into what I'm saying. I just remember from the top of my head, that Peach does nothing to help kill the final boss, while Zelda (typically) does.

[Sunwoo]

In FE 9/10, Ike is said to be a powerful warrior who eventually became his father's equal when his father was at his prime. And Greil was known as a very powerful warrior indeed. In FE13, the game hypes up Robin as a brilliant tactician. There really is no mention of Robin's combat prowess in the game, just his tactical mind.

We know from the Tellius games that Ike is no tactician, but we don't really know how strong Robin is as a warrior since the game chooses not to focus on his raw strength. "Power" is based on more than strength, so it's possible that while Ike may overpower Robin on brute strength alone, Robin's mind would allow him to outsmart Ike and defeat him even if he cannot directly overpower him. Brains over brawn and all, you know? It really depends on what the OP's definition of "power" is. If we're going by strength alone, Ike would likely win, but if we're going to include factors like intelligence, I think Robin will more than likely give Ike a fight.

My other opinion is that Shulk should continue to be at the top, or near it, for reasons stated.

[Jave]

...lol, now you think Mario, Luigi, and Bowser could defeat Robin, but you think Ike can't?

Notice how Link is below Ganondorf. Character A being above Character B in a Tier List doesn't mean A automatically beats B.

[Anacybele]

My point is that Chrom (any by extension Robin) started about as strong as Ike ended up as. And they both got far more powerful from there. Like, early or even midgame Robin wouldn't be able to even scratch endgame enemies.

Again, I'm confused. If Chrom started off as strong as Ike had become, Chrom would've started knowing Aether and having larger muscles. Which he does not.

EDIT: OH, okay, sorry about that, Jave.

EDIT2: Sangyul, you have a point, but just because Ike isn't a tactician doesn't mean he doesn't know his battle strategies. He DOES give tactical advice to Jorge and Daniel, if you remember. And this was in PoR, before he got all macho and stuff. He has Soren too, who I'm sure he learns from. And Robin can be outsmarted. He/she gets beat in a tactical game all the time by Virion. Robin COULD outsmart Ike since he's an actual tactician, but I don't think we know this for sure either.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Anacybele

[Sunwoo]

EDIT2: Sangyul, you have a point, but just because Ike isn't a tactician doesn't mean he doesn't know his battle strategies. He DOES give tactical advice to Jorge and Daniel, if you remember. And this was in PoR, before he got all macho and stuff. He has Soren too, who I'm sure he learns from. And Robin can be outsmarted. He/she gets beat in a tactical game all the time by Virion. Robin COULD outsmart Ike since he's an actual tactician, but I don't think we know this for sure either.

Ike giving tactical advice to Jorge and Daniel does not a brilliant tactician make. Soren is the one who makes all the decisions for Ike (even if Ike has the final say). Even if Ike learned something of tactics from Soren (and we don't even know for sure if he did), how do you know it is enough to outsmart Robin, a tactical genius in his own canon?

Sure, Virion beats Robin in that tactical game, but even Virion himself admits that his tactics could not be used in a real war. It gives me the idea that while Virion's tactics may win a battle, Robin's tactics will win the war. One victory does not mean a victory in the total war. Besides, while Robin can be outsmarted, I very highly doubt Ike will be the one to outsmart him. Also, you're also saying things that we cannot be sure of as well (like Ike learning tactics from Soren), but the games themselves lend more evidence to Robin being far more brilliant in tactics than Ike, therefore giving the point to Robin in this scenario.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i like Jave's tier list alot more, charizard should be in B tier though, same with Greninja.

hell, Greninja's so good that he's banned in competitive play and Charizard's mega form has stupidly high attack power.

Edited January 23, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[BrightBow]

Ike's journey is much longer than Chrom's, plus it was probably a weak wall, given how there are castles all over the Fire Emblem universe that can be busted by anyone with any weapon. Also Chrom and Lucina are never shown to have better acrobatic skills than what they pulled off and it's never stated that Ike wasn't able to pull off that stunt earlier. (Actually, PoR's Aether animation is also a pretty high jump as well IIRC)

I think Chrom had the longer journey. We don't know how long Chrom took overall but we do know that Ike's quest in PoR only took a year. In that time, Ike barely managed to basically tour the entire continent. He spend several months on sea alone. And in the rest of the year, he conquered a small nation and liberated another one.

Now, Chrom also conquered a nation but then an entire continent. On the other side of the sea, no less. And during his journey, he travels back and forth on two continents, so he must have journeyed a lot further then Ike did in both games combined. I mean, just at the very end of his quest, Chrom traveled all the way from the west of Ylisse (the continent) to the very east before going all the way back into the west again, and going even further west onto an island between the two continents. That alone probably matches the time Ike spend journeying on his later quest in Radiant Dawn.

And while Ike had a timeskip, so did Chrom. However, Ike was busy with politics for a while before continuing his old underpaid mercenary work presumably fighting against lowly grunts who wouldn't be much of a challenge. But Chrom had the invasion of the undead to worry about. So I think Chrom got the better workout during that time. And his ignorance about the new Plegian king indicates that he probably wasn't spending much of that time on politics either.

And "weak wall"? I think this just supports my assumption that Awakening operates on an entirely different power level.

Because there actually are scenarios in Tellius were castles couldn't just be entered by force. That was a big plot point in 3-1, for example. All those powerful Laguz were completely helpless in front of a castle wall and the mercs had to open the gate from the inside. And in PoR, they could only enter the castle in Nevassa because the Daein opened the gate for them. And then they found themselves trapped once it got closed, with no other choice but to push forward. Palace walls might be weak for Awakening characters, but for Tellius characters it's another story. Unless they are Black Dragons, of course.

Also Robin can't control Grima, he never uses its power and he probably would never figure out how to so Grima should not be considered for judging Robin.

Well, considering that Narga herself said: "You possess power not so different from my own." , I can't help but think that he has access to divine power to some degree.

Edited January 23, 2015 by BrightBow

[Kon]

Ike has some tactics, though the extent is rather limited, as the advice he gives is fairly basic.

Within-game-lore is not necessarily always correct. Can you provide an indication as to where this statement was made in a game or wherever (I don't doubt it was said somewhere, I just don't remember running into a line like that and wanna know). I'm not saying it isn't the case, but for my part I always got the feeling that Caineghis was probably stronger than Ike (I guess Cain is more of a king than a hero though).

I just perused the script and it doesn't say he is the mightiest hero anywhere

Final words

In days long past, a young man

strode the lands of Tellius.

He was simple yet true, his deeds

brave and noble. He reunited two

races long at war,

and healed the heart of a goddess

long gone mad.

Ask any you meet be they young or

old, beorc or laguz,

of a hero named Ike and you’ll receive

a warm smile

and a tale or two of faith, courage,

and honesty.

So much for knowing everything about her Ikey-poo

[Anacybele]

I never said that it was stated in RD. You have the wrong game. Check Old Hubba's quotes about the various FE characters in Awakening and you'll find that he says Ike is his favorite and that he was the mightiest hero of them all.

I have an obsession with Ike, I would think that I've done as much research on him as I can. ;P

[Original Alear]

It might be a line out of awakening for all I know. Lemme try looking for it myself.

Well, from the paralogue with priam in it:

Only what the legends tell—that he's an unparalleled warrior from another world. They say he felled thousands with a divine blade blessed by Ashera herself.

I never got the feeling that Ike felled thousands...but actually if you take PoR and RD together he might be able to amass a kill count of over a thousand (he is a true hero of the three kingdoms!) if you fed about all the kills possible in the game to him. I guess there is also his post-RD career to consider.

But like the quote says, it's about legends, so ya. In Tiki and Lucina's support you also get a description of Marth that surprises Lucina.

EDIT-Missed your post ana. Hubba actually kinda is in a position to judge. Except that he doesn't have any laguz from FE9 or 10 in his einherjar (sorry if that's spelled wrong)...

Edited January 23, 2015 by Severlan

[Loki Laufeyson]

I never said that it was stated in RD. You have the wrong game. Check Old Hubba's quotes about the various FE characters in Awakening and you'll find that he says Ike is his favorite and that he was the mightiest hero of them all.

I have an obsession with Ike, I would think that I've done as much research on him as I can. ;P

yes because Old Hubba is just an infallible fount of wisdom. *sigh*

It might be a line out of awakening for all I know. Lemme try looking for it myself.

Well, from the paralogue with priam in it:

I never got the feeling that Ike felled thousands...but actually if you take PoR and RD together he might be able to amass a kill count of over a thousand (he is a true hero of the three kingdoms!) if you fed about all the kills possible in the game to him. I guess there is also his post-RD career to consider.

But like the quote says, it's about legends, so ya. In Tiki and Lucina's support you also get a description of Marth that surprises Lucina.

EDIT-Hubba actually kinda is in a position to judge. Except that he doesn't have any laguz from FE9 or 10 in his einherjar (sorry if that's spelled wrong)...

Priam's description sounds like that of an old legend. Which is actually the point. Its heroic embellishment.

[Anacybele]

Ike giving tactical advice to Jorge and Daniel does not a brilliant tactician make. Soren is the one who makes all the decisions for Ike (even if Ike has the final say). Even if Ike learned something of tactics from Soren (and we don't even know for sure if he did), how do you know it is enough to outsmart Robin, a tactical genius in his own canon?

Sure, Virion beats Robin in that tactical game, but even Virion himself admits that his tactics could not be used in a real war. It gives me the idea that while Virion's tactics may win a battle, Robin's tactics will win the war. One victory does not mean a victory in the total war. Besides, while Robin can be outsmarted, I very highly doubt Ike will be the one to outsmart him. Also, you're also saying things that we cannot be sure of as well (like Ike learning tactics from Soren), but the games themselves lend more evidence to Robin being far more brilliant in tactics than Ike, therefore giving the point to Robin in this scenario.

Well yeah, I didn't say that that meant Ike was a brilliant tactician, only that he DOES know something of tactics, possibly from Soren. Yeah, we can't say for sure that he's learning a lot from Soren, but I think it's kinda implied by the convos with Jorge and Daniel that he learns at least some.

Also, as you yourself said, we don't know much about Robin's combat skills. And a tactician can know battle strategies, but not necessarily be skilled at actually fighting. See FE7's tactician, who has no combat skills at all, yet can lead an army to victory no problem.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Anacybele

[Sunwoo]

Well yeah, I didn't say that that meant Ike was a brilliant tactician, only that he DOES know something of tactics, possibly from Soren. Yeah, we can't say for sure that he's learning a lot from Soren, but I think it's kinda implied by the convos with Jorge and Daniel that he learns at least some.

You use the words "possibly" and "implied", which isn't 100% evidence. Robin, on the other hand, is a brilliant tactician. Canonically. Regardless of whether Ike actually knows anything about tactics or not, he is NOT outsmarting Robin on his own, no way no how. And since Soren isn't exactly in Smash with Ike, our hero of blue flames is on his own in the tactical department. And he's not beating Robin, according to the canon.

Also, as you yourself said, we don't know much about Robin's combat skills. And a tactician can know battle strategies, but not necessarily be skilled at actually fighting. See FE7's tactician, who has no combat skills at all, yet can lead an army to victory no problem.

Except Robin IS said to be a competent fighter? If you go back to the prologue and read the post-battle quote, Lissa swoons over Robin's abilities in tactics, magic, AND the sword. He might not be the best fighter ever, but the game dialogue does state that he is COMPETENT at least, so this point really doesn't hold water. Also, did you ignore the part where I said Tellius canon OUTRIGHT states that Ike is no tactician?

Ana, you really need to drop your preconceived notions about Ike and Robin, because right now all I see is you downplaying Robin's abilities and achievements and overhyping Ike's skills and making assumptions for him and then turning around and saying I can't make assumptions that help Robin or hurt Ike. This is not exactly a fair debate when you're allowed to make assumptions and I'm not. It's like saying you want to duel me, but you're allowed to wear armor and use a sword while I have to fight with my fists in my T-shirt.

For the record, I don't care whether Ike or Robin is stronger, nor do I really have an opinion. I just think you're not giving Robin enough credit, and you're giving Ike too much credit.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Sunwoo

[Shin]

At the end of the day, both Robin and Ike have fought some pretty potent foes and could arguably be considered the peak of regular humans. The problem is that Ike's never demonstrated large degrees of tactical prowess, and it's all up to assumptions or theory since pretty much nobody refers to him as a tactical genius. Robin on the other hand is considered an outstanding tactician and it can be logically inferred that he can fight to some degree and if you count in-game performance, Robin's pretty amazing at fighting.

[Anacybele]

Except Robin IS said to be a competent fighter?

Wow, way to contradict yourself. Like I pointed out, YOU JUST SAID that we have little knowledge on how well Robin can really fight.

I don't really care who is stronger either, I just think people are overestimating Robin and underestimating Ike. It's not like I'm saying Ike is the most powerful Nintendo character ever, as much as I'd love for him to be. Even I can admit that that's far from true.

[Shin]

Wow, way to contradict yourself. Like I pointed out, YOU JUST SAID that we have little knowledge on how well Robin can really fight.

I don't really care who is stronger either, I just think people are overestimating Robin and underestimating Ike. It's not like I'm saying Ike is the most powerful Nintendo character ever, as much as I'd love for him to be. Even I can admit that that's far from true.

Whilst you're entitled to your beliefs, it doesn't justify that kind of rude behaviour.

Nobody in FE13 really goes around saying "Robin is the best at fighting" or, we have some idea that he can actually fight considering the context he's in. That would imply he's at least competent.

[Sunwoo]

I did not contradict myself. I said that we have LITTLE knowledge, not NO knowledge.

Lissa
Lucky for the town, we were close by. But holy wow, Robin! You were incredible! Swords, sorcery, AND tactics! Is there anything you can't do?
Chrom
You're certainly no helpless victim, that much is for sure.

THIS is "a little knowledge". It states that he is a competent fighter against prologue bandits - something that FE7!Mark cannot even fight against - and therefore can at least fight. However, the dialogue does not praise him for being an amazing warrior who topples his enemies through power. Rather, it praises him for his genius tactics. So what LITTLE we do know of his skills is that he is not incompetent at fighting. But how his actual fighting skills match up to people like Ike or Walhart or even Chrom himself, we don't know. Therefore, I did not contradict myself.

Also, Ana, you get angry whenever people point out when you're contradicting yourself in the manner you just did so to me. It makes you come off as very unpleasant. So do I now have grounds to get angry at you for calling me out on a contradiction that was never there?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

with that said, i still wouldn't move Ike or Robin to A tier.

lets be real, could any of them actually fight an 800 pound gorilla?

also with that tier list, Wario should be in the same tier as mario, as in his canon games, he's much more capable then mario and in some cases, unkillable.

[euklyd]

I don't really see where tactics come in? I thought this was more or less a fight without outside interference, and the sort of tactics robin is famous for aren't exactly the same as what you'd find in a duel.

that being said I also don't see why we're saying "oh but robin isn't really grima" when we've been talking about the pinacle of a character's power
it seems pretty self-evident that robin is at their most powerful after becoming grima

lets be real, could any of them actually fight an 800 pound gorilla?

I'd imagine that 800lb gorillas aren't as strong as dragons of whichever variety

[Shin]

with that said, i still wouldn't move Ike or Robin to A tier.

lets be real, could any of them actually fight an 800 pound gorilla?

also with that tier list, Wario should be in the same tier as mario, as in his canon games, he's much more capable then mario and in some cases, unkillable.

Both of them are at the end of the day ordinary humans, the kong be too strong. I'd probably put Wario with Mario, he's definitely in the same league as him.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i should've used bowser as an example.

Dude's nearly unkillable, and the few times he does die, he just comes back as dry bones bowser, has his own magic and not to mention all the other stuff that he can do in the RPG's.

beating him is less about overpowering him and more out smarting him, in this case i could see maybe robin beating him, assuming magic works (some games bowser's immune to power ups) but thats about it from the fire emblem side.

[Refa]

In some of Wario's games, he's literally unkillable as the main playable character.