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3 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Projection, hypocrisy and playing victim is what Republicans do best.

EDIT: The Trumpians are actually chanting "LOCK HIM UP" when Biden's mentioned at a Trump rally. Not surprising but you'd think they'd at least pretend to have a reason like with Hillary.

I've seen people who genuinely believe that everything we know that is negative about Trump or the GOP has been completely fabricated. I don't mean just Ukraine and Russia stuff, but even things going way back well before 2016. You literally cannot discuss anything with them because any source you provide is dismissed as fake. They are happy to go down with the ship.

edit: Almost forgot that Yovanovitch testifies tomorrow, so a decent chance we'll learn some new stuff

Edited by Johann

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How quickly is Trump going to dump Giuliani? And how much whiplash will there be if America's Fallen Mayor gets indicted?

Will Trump have an "I feel badly for him" *dangles pardon* moment for Giuliani? Or will he not resort to that this time if it comes to it?

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I don't doubt that there'll be a "I feel bad for him" moment, but considering that Manafort and Cohen didn't get pardoned, I don't think Giuliani will get one. For now, at least. Who knows what Trump'll do when impeachment proceedings start happening.

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23 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

So who's going to fight the next ISIS for us? Trump made it perfectly clear that any poor fool who does our dirty work for us can expect a knife in the back to please a Turkish dictator. This doesn't really give people a lot of motivation to go fight terrorists for us

You do realize Turkey has helped the US with military operations in Afghanistan? 

Edited by Icelerate

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20 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

You do realize Turkey has helped the US with military operations in Afghanistan? 

And the Kurds fought ISIS with funding from the US. Not sure what you're trying to imply here, but fact of the matter is that the US is allied to both Turkey and several Kurdish factions, and one of them has been a shitty ally for decades now.

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31 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

You do realize Turkey has helped the US with military operations in Afghanistan? 

Yeah, they did.

It's still a betrayal of the Kurds, who were also our allies and are being attacked by them.

The reason people are upset is A) Turkey is the aggressor and B) Turkey is way more powerful.

The fast explanation of the situation is:

Both of them are our allies, but Turkey wants to be the US's only ally so that the US will be forced to help them in the future. They are also suffering economic troubles and the president wants something to distract them.

Edited by dragonlordsd

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20 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

And the Kurds fought ISIS with funding from the US. Not sure what you're trying to imply here, but fact of the matter is that the US is allied to both Turkey and several Kurdish factions, and one of them has been a shitty ally for decades now.

I know that. Why are you repeating what I just quoted? Why is it so shocking that the US decided not to intervene in a fight between Turkey and the YPG? 

16 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Yeah, they did.

It's still a betrayal of the Kurds, who were also our allies and are being attacked by them.

 The reason people are upset is A) Turkey is the aggressor and B) Turkey is way more powerful.

Well the US did arm the Kurds with a lot of weaponry so it's not like they are totally defenseless. I think it is totally understandable that Trump doesn't want to risk a military confrontation with Turkey. 

Turkey being way more powerful doesn't necessarily mean the SDF can't defend itself. The Houthis have been able to defend against the Saudis and the Taliban are doing just fine despite massive airstrikes. 

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14 hours ago, Johann said:

I've seen people who genuinely believe that everything we know that is negative about Trump or the GOP has been completely fabricated. I don't mean just Ukraine and Russia stuff, but even things going way back well before 2016. You literally cannot discuss anything with them because any source you provide is dismissed as fake. They are happy to go down with the ship.

This is from Bloomberg's interviews with a 44-year-old Trump supporter:

Quote

“This makes me more, way more energized, as if I wasn’t energized enough,” he said. “I love Donald Trump unapologetically. I love the fact that he fights back, that he sticks up for the people, he doesn’t take sh*t, and if someone throws him sh*t he throws it right back.”

Quote

“Is there anything he could do to make him lose my vote? Not a thing,” Chaney said. “He could sprout horns — I’m voting for him, twice.

 

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52 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

You do realize Turkey has helped the US with military operations in Afghanistan? 

Yes though I would hesitate to deem Turkey a particularly trustworthy partner. There was a lot of talk about them letting western Jihad travelers moving through Turkey towards Syria relatively uninterrupted since they'd go on to kill Kurd's and Assad's soldiers. 

It is good that Turkey did hold military operations against IS(something Europe hardly seemed to do) but that doesn't mean their invasion and annexation of Kurdish lands is justified. Apparently Erdogan wants to settle these Kurdish lands with Arab refugee's which falls under some definition of ethnic cleansing. 

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3 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I know that. Why are you repeating what I just quoted? Why is it so shocking that the US decided not to intervene in a fight between Turkey and the YPG? 

Well the US did arm the Kurds with a lot of weaponry so it's not like they are totally defenseless. I think it is totally understandable that Trump doesn't want to risk a military confrontation with Turkey. 

Turkey being way more powerful doesn't necessarily mean the SDF can't defend itself. The Houthis have been able to defend against the Saudis and the Taliban are doing just fine despite massive airstrikes. 

What I want is an American intervention and mediation between two allies to force some kind of negotiation and a cessation of hostilities. Abandoning our allies, throwing responsibility into the air, and leaving a mess for others to clean up is unbecoming of the United States.

We put our weight behind Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm. Vietnam did not turn out well, but at least we moved a lot of refugees over to the United States and cleaned up some of our mess. I want us to do the same with the Middle East. Our occupation of Iraq was half hearted at best and we should have poured money into the country to at least rebuild their infrastructure. Leaving Iraq was absolutely stupid and it caused ISIS to rise in the power vacuum.

The least we can do is to send a token force over to shield the Kurds so Turkey cannot attack without putting our men in danger.

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25 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I know that. Why are you repeating what I just quoted? Why is it so shocking that the US decided not to intervene in a fight between Turkey and the YPG?

Are you willfully ignorant of the last 100-120 years of history between Turks and Kurds?

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Trump has commercial real estate in Istanbul, and thats all you really need to know to understand his motivation for what hes doing with the Turks and the Kurds right now.

This is what a purely transactional foreign policy looks like.

No loyalties. No values.  Every partnership and alliance is worth only how it can be used for immediate personal gain.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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3 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

No loyalties. No values.  Every partnership and alliance is worth only how it can be used for immediate personal gain.

Which Netanyahu prior to the Kurds, had recently learned, even if he is clinging on to power and the hot drop isn't as sharply devastating.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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Thats also btw why we have The Emoluments Clause.

And why its in The Constitution that the president is supposed to divest himself of private business interests that could create a conflict-of-interest with his public duty to craft foreign policy + faithfully execute the law of the land--because even back than people knew this is the kind of naked corruption that you get when you don't respect that barrier.

And if Congress was worth a damn that in-and-of-itself would have been grounds for Articles of Impeachment. Violating that constitutional mandate every single day since he took office, and openly using public office for private gain.  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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22 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

Are you willfully ignorant of the last 100-120 years of history between Turks and Kurds?

I'll willfully admit my ignorance on the topic of Kurds. My first exposure was the character Sniper Wolf from Metal Gear Solid. But I don't take much stock in that game's application of real world politics since they also irresponsibly used Gulf War Syndrome as part of its in-universe science fiction. I can't prove Gulf War Syndrome wasn't a real thing, but in 1997 it was very much mired in conspiracy theories.

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Maybe the Emoluments Clause needs a new name. Pass a Constitutional amendment to rename it the "No Getting Rich While Working, Politicians! Law". The term by itself is hard for Americans to grasp.

 

1 minute ago, Glennstavos said:

I'll willfully admit my ignorance on the topic of Kurds.

It's a lot of bad blood and conflict between the two groups. Turkey wanting to culturally if not physically eradicate all that is Kurdish. I think they might actually ban use of the letter "x" in names in Turkey, because Kurdish names frequently use it in when rendered in the Western alphabet.

Turkey also carried out the Armenian Genocide during World War I. And to this day the country denies it and sends out representatives to continue denying it. Although the ever-vigilant modern world would keep the Turks from denying a "Kurdish Genocide", and instead they'd just say "Okay, we did it. So what's it to everybody else?".

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54 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

And if Congress was worth a damn that in-and-of-itself would have been grounds for Articles of Impeachment. Violating that constitutional mandate every single day since he took office, and openly using public office for private gain.  

If Trumps gets voted out, I hope the moderate Republicans are more willing to support Democrats then to bring him to justice.

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1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

I'll willfully admit my ignorance on the topic of Kurds. My first exposure was the character Sniper Wolf from Metal Gear Solid. But I don't take much stock in that game's application of real world politics since they also irresponsibly used Gulf War Syndrome as part of its in-universe science fiction. I can't prove Gulf War Syndrome wasn't a real thing, but in 1997 it was very much mired in conspiracy theories.

... holy shit, man.

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15 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

... holy shit, man.

Honestly I just like to talk about Metal Gear Solid

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Shep Smith is out at Fox News. 2 days after Barr met with Rupert Murdoch.

8 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Maybe the Emoluments Clause needs a new name. Pass a Constitutional amendment to rename it the "No Getting Rich While Working, Politicians! Law". The term by itself is hard for Americans to grasp.

The name is not the issue. It's the Republicans. Just the other day, Newt Gingrich said the impeachment inquiry is unconstitutional. The man led an impeachment effort against Clinton in the late 90s when he was speaker of the house.

Republicans know what they're doing. They just don't care so long as they can hold on to or obtain more power. The Merrick Garland fiasco being one of their long term ploys. They're willing to turn the country to a dictatorship so long as that dictator is one of their own. They may as well have said by now "Democracy? Fuck that, my team can't win anymore if we play fair after all the liberal indoctrination that has occurred over the years".

The sad part is that the Democrats have the power but they're took weak. They should've jailed several people for defying subpoenas by now, just as Republicans would've.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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On 10/11/2019 at 11:47 AM, Icelerate said:

Well the US did arm the Kurds with a lot of weaponry so it's not like they are totally defenseless. I think it is totally understandable that Trump doesn't want to risk a military confrontation with Turkey. 

Turkey being way more powerful doesn't necessarily mean the SDF can't defend itself. The Houthis have been able to defend against the Saudis and the Taliban are doing just fine despite massive airstrikes. 

To be honest, it wouldn't be a "military confrontation" with Turkey, which is part of the reason why people are mad.

Turkey would never openly attack or even "confront" US troops. As we've already agreed, Turkey is a US ally, and they won't do anything to jeopardize that.

Really, all the US needs to do is just keep its troops in front of the Kurds, and the problem is immediately solved. This is what makes people mad, because even though the US is within their rights to withdraw troops, for the price of just keeping 100 soldiers garrisoned with the Kurds, a full-scale war can be prevented, which most people see as being worth it (myself included).

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12 hours ago, dragonlordsd said:

Really, all the US needs to do is just keep its troops in front of the Kurds, and the problem is immediately solved. This is what makes people mad, because even though the US is within their rights to withdraw troops, for the price of just keeping 100 soldiers garrisoned with the Kurds, a full-scale war can be prevented, which most people see as being worth it (myself included).

1000 troops, which the US had in Syria, is not enough to prevent a Turkish invasion. Turkey would just go around the US troops much like the Syrian troops went around the Turkish observation post near Morek in Northern Hama when they captured Khan Sheikhoun and surrounding areas. 

 

On 10/11/2019 at 11:53 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

 It is good that Turkey did hold military operations against IS(something Europe hardly seemed to do) but that doesn't mean their invasion and annexation of Kurdish lands is justified. Apparently Erdogan wants to settle these Kurdish lands with Arab refugee's which falls under some definition of ethnic cleansing. 

Wasn't arguing about whether Turkey is justified or not but whether it makes sense for Trump to withdraw or not. I remember him campaigning on ending US involvement in various wars so is Trump supposed to break his promises now? 

 

On 10/11/2019 at 12:13 PM, Excellen Browning said:

Are you willfully ignorant of the last 100-120 years of history between Turks and Kurds?

Haven't read up on their history but I know that the two have a bad blood as some Kurds want an independent state within Turkey. But what does that have to do with the US? 

 

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6 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Haven't read up on their history but I know that the two have a bad blood as some Kurds want an independent state within Turkey. But what does that have to do with the US? 

 

On 10/11/2019 at 6:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

It's a lot of bad blood and conflict between the two groups. Turkey wanting to culturally if not physically eradicate all that is Kurdish. I think they might actually ban use of the letter "x" in names in Turkey, because Kurdish names frequently use it in when rendered in the Western alphabet.

Turkey also carried out the Armenian Genocide during World War I. And to this day the country denies it and sends out representatives to continue denying it. Although the ever-vigilant modern world would keep the Turks from denying a "Kurdish Genocide", and instead they'd just say "Okay, we did it. So what's it to everybody else?".

As a side note to the Armenian Genocide, it was a more general massacring of non-Turks living in the Ottoman empire. This included Anatolian Greeks, Kurds and Syrians, just to name a few.

 

And if you think having a group of people being murdered to the last is okay, or at least not your business, I don't know what to tell you. 

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7 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Wasn't arguing about whether Turkey is justified or not but whether it makes sense for Trump to withdraw or not. I remember him campaigning on ending US involvement in various wars so is Trump supposed to break his promises now? 

If Trump has no way to withdraw responsibly then yes, he should break that promise. What's one more broken promise when his base forgives him everything anyway. At this moment it doesn't make much sense to withdraw. Withdrawing now means that American's allies will be slaughtered, ISIS prisoners will be escaping giving them a chance to rise again or travel to Europe to start committing terrorist attacks against America's allies, America's enemies are strengthened and every potential new ally will now know that doing America's dirty work will just lead to them getting betrayed by America later down the line. Who's going to fight the new ISIS for us after seeing America let the Kurds get slaughtered? 

Its a decisions with no positive aspects to it. Even if Trump cynically ''brought the troops home'' just to boost his campaign then he's doing it in a way that ensures there will be a tremendous amount of blood on his hand and also sets the stage for a return to the Middle East when ISIS inevitably rises again. Its likely the most foolish American foreign policy decisions since Bush's invasions and its done without America gaining anything out of it. 

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Trump breaks his promises all the time.  What happened to the wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for?  Guess he'll steal 3+ billion from military to build it instead.  He also made the bold statement "I will end all crime" well that is an impossible promise but anyways don't believe anything this piece of trash says or promises.  The party loyalists and single issue voters come in all types, the pro Trump Maga crowd are morons, racist, or both.  I guess this pull out of Kurds which looks stupid on all levels he can sell to that hardcore crowd cause they are gullible enough to believe anything he says, but the other Republicans, and of course independents/democrats aren't going to buy his BS so it is a move that hurts him I think.

 

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