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40 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

And Biden takes Wisconsin! Trump is already disputing it and demanding a recount, of course...

It's kind of ironic, since Trump took Wisconsin in 2016 by about the same margin of 20K. Michigan was only 10K the same year, and a recount was demanded by Jill Stein of all people, but they shot down any notion of going through with that. Recounts usually turn up a difference in a couple hundred at most, not tens of thousands in a state the size of wisconsin. Pretty nice to see one battleground state actually finish counting. Up until now it's just been florida. From the sound of things, Michigan should be finishing their count within a matter of hours.

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1 hour ago, X-Naut said:

Michigan is almost done and looks promising but remains close. Nevada is tense.

Understatement, it's only 8000 separating the two at the moment, with 14% to go, it's presently my biggest fear in this tightrope act over the yawning abyss of democracy's oblivion. And I'm still wary of Arizona, a 3% lead with 14% left to go, and not even a 100k lead, is too close for me. Michigan is less than 70k difference with 3% to go, I, remain fearful here too.

Too soon to make jokes about Oregon's legalization of supervised use of psilocybin for medical purposes? I could use something strong, or successful cryostasis.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Understatement, it's only 8000 separating the two at the moment, with 14% to go, it's presently my biggest fear in this tightrope act over the yawning abyss of democracy's oblivion. And I'm still wary of Arizona, a 3% lead with 14% left to go, and not even a 100k lead, is too close for me. Michigan is less than 70k difference with 3% to go, I, remain fearful here too.

Too soon to make jokes about Oregon's legalization of supervised use of psilocybin for medical purposes? I could use something strong, or successful cryostasis.

Sheesh. I can't imagine how nail biting this must be for Americans. The whole world is likely tensely watching what happens but for Americans its obviously an extra bit worse. 

But to me this all indicates America is in vital need of electoral reform. The Democrats won the popular vote eight times yet the important institution keeps going to the minority of Republicans. And Biden allegedly got more votes then any presidential candidate in history. That these numbers translate to either barely scrapping a victory together or complete defeat is so damning for the American system. In a normal democracy Biden's victory would have been sealed hours ago. 

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I blame the Founding Fathers tbh. My students are currently learning about the beginnings of the United States and it is quite a thing to see how back-ass-wards the Founders were.

Hi people. Most likely won't be posting here again for quite a while.

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34 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Sheesh. I can't imagine how nail biting this must be for Americans. The whole world is likely tensely watching what happens but for Americans its obviously an extra bit worse. 

But to me this all indicates America is in vital need of electoral reform. The Democrats won the popular vote eight times yet the important institution keeps going to the minority of Republicans. And Biden allegedly got more votes then any presidential candidate in history. That these numbers translate to either barely scrapping a victory together or complete defeat is so damning for the American system. In a normal democracy Biden's victory would have been sealed hours ago. 

If Biden manages to cobble together a massive popular vote lead and 300+ electoral votes and we're still despairing like this I'm just going to think we enjoy being miserable.

And remember that Bush thought his 500 votes entitled him to call his victory a mandate lol

EDIT: I do legit think when it's all said and done we get the blue wall back + georgia and all the seeming miniscule leads right now won't be so small in the next 48 hours

Edited by Crysta

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13 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I blame the Founding Fathers tbh. My students are currently learning about the beginnings of the United States and it is quite a thing to see how back-ass-wards the Founders were.

I kinda blame them too. They have a saintly reputation but its worth remembering the system they set up led to both the civil war and Trump, the sort of politician their system was explicitly meant to avoid. Maybe their deification starts to decline somewhat when this sinks in. 

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41 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Sheesh. I can't imagine how nail biting this must be for Americans. The whole world is likely tensely watching what happens but for Americans its obviously an extra bit worse. 

But to me this all indicates America is in vital need of electoral reform. The Democrats won the popular vote eight times yet the important institution keeps going to the minority of Republicans. And Biden allegedly got more votes then any presidential candidate in history. That these numbers translate to either barely scrapping a victory together or complete defeat is so damning for the American system. In a normal democracy Biden's victory would have been sealed hours ago. 

I suppose it might come being the first (more likely second if you count the English, third if I don't understand the United Provinces very well) in elucidating the world in the wonders of republicanism and democracy. Ours is now quite old, and while the electorate has been expanded over generations, we've kept the Electoral College all this time thinking it was fine, and to be fair it did elect Lincoln, he only got 40% of the popular vote in 1860.

Unfortunately, as the British discovered with their efforts to reform towards greater democratic republicanism in the 1800s, the only body that can change the election of the government, is the governments themselves. And what Republican would shoot themselves in the foot and abolish the Electoral College? Although given their performance yesterday with black males and Latinos, maybe they shouldn't be so afraid that the future is "inevitably" Democratic. This would need three-fourths of the states to ratify the constitutional amendment, and how, is that to be done when the Republicans own the state legislatures? 

It took the Polish nobles until after the First Partition of Poland to abolish the liberum veto, and by that point it was defenseless and destined to mostly become a Russian possession, sounds familiar. Although I'd be fine if Germany took the remainder of the US as part of the deal, New England to Virginia could be a bulwark against the radical right in their federation.

I'm not so naive that rightist populists can win in popular-vote countries: Bolsonaro, Duterte, Modi, Erdogan and whoever are in charge of Poland and Hungary right now I think all count. But I personally would take the plunge into something new, over this current system. Or even going a step backwards and becoming the Holy United American Empire with each governor + some other high state officials gaining Elector status. It'd make presidential election outcomes much easier to predict, and state politics more relevant.😛

 

21 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I blame the Founding Fathers tbh. My students are currently learning about the beginnings of the United States and it is quite a thing to see how back-ass-wards the Founders were.

Considering their times, and the age of reactionary conservatism that came to Europe once the French Revolution went radical and the wars that Napoleon took over were on, the US Founding Fathers weren't so bad for their period in history.

I would like to hope this current dark age of reactionary authoritarian populism is no different from post ~1815 Europe, and that in our grandchildren's generation, liberal democracy is restored. Sooner is better, but I would take eventually.

 

21 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Hi people. Most likely won't be posting here again for quite a while.

Great idea! But I'm miserable so I want a company.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

suppose it might come being the first (more likely second if you count the English, third if I don't understand the United Provinces very well) in elucidating the world in the wonders of republicanism and democracy.

As someone who understands the united provinces intimately I'd say we definitely were earlier with that whole Republic thing 😄 And then we replaced the Republic with a Kingdom when everyone else did the reverse. Venice was also a republic from about the middle ages all the way up to Napoleon. 

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11 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I kinda blame them too. They have a saintly reputation but its worth remembering the system they set up led to both the civil war and Trump, the sort of politician their system was explicitly meant to avoid. Maybe their deification starts to decline somewhat when this sinks in. 

The American founding fathers were a major (though not exclusive) part of a movement that brought democracy to the world. So they did do some great work. It's just complete foolishness to hang onto their methodology over two and a half hundred years later. Part of the reason for the electorial college for example is that they rightly assumed the entire country wouldn't be able to know enough about the people campaigning for president, but they would know enough about their local representatives who would know. This is obviously not the case now adays with mass media making sure everyone on the planet let alone the USA knowing who trump is.

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I think the ideas were good, but they need to be updated to keep up with the current feature releases (for example, allowing everyone to vote instead of white landowners).  I'm all for an overhaul of the electoral system, now that the pool of voters is far more diverse than it was back when the Constitution was drafted.

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Yeah they wanted us to change things as we went along but political parties have vested interest in not changing things.

That's not their fault. Those parties didn't exist back then (and I know George Washington explicitly argued against political parties, presumably for a reason).

And you know what? We were close to abolishing the electoral college back in the 1970's. It's a hurdle to just convince people it can be done.

 

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Political parties were created barely at the halfway point of Washington's presidency, by other Founding Fathers themselves, so... that one's on them.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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One thing I will give flak for the USA founding fathers is leaving out any clear protocol for leaving the union. This was something that was far more relative to them back then when it more resembled the EU and each state was basically a functioning country. That one of them might have cause to leave is definitely something that should have crossed their mind.

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3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Political parties were created the moment Washington stepped down, by other Founding Fathers themselves, so... that one's on them.

Well, yeah. They weren't part of the initial calculus, though, but inevitably it turned into the rich versus the poors.

But I don't think that will ever not be the case.

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9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Political parties were created barely at the halfway point of Washington's presidency, by other Founding Fathers themselves, so... that one's on them.

True, though weren't they at the same time suspicious of them? And we had that short-lived Era of Good Feelings where the Federalists died out and the Democratic Republicans were the only ones around.

 

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

One thing I will give flak for the USA founding fathers is leaving out any clear protocol for leaving the union. This was something that was far more relative to them back then when it more resembled the EU and each state was basically a functioning country. That one of them might have cause to leave is definitely something that should have crossed their mind.

Given the fragility of the union back then, and concerns that the American experiment would fail if the union broke apart, I assume they were thinking "Leave? Yeah, no. Don't do that. Please don't. Divided we fall and that grandiosely phrased stuff".

Rhode Island did hold off on ratifying the Constitution for a year after everyone else had done it. Gave in only after a threatened trade embargo.

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We're down to 162,000 absentees remaining uncounted in Georgia and the deficit is 55,592 right now.

GO ATLANTA C'MON DO WHAT FLORIDA COULDN'T

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We held the half the Blue Wall. If we hold Nevada too, we should be good I think.

Hope we get all PA, NC, and GA too, but just having one of them would be enough to be secure the election in no uncertain terms.

Edited by XRay

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I don't think there's enough left in NC.

We'll get news about GA very shortly. The gap is steadily closing in PA, so I feel good about that, too.

Edited by Crysta

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Biden just got Michigan. He only needs Nevada to win. Trump literally needs to win all of the remaining states if he wants to win the election. 

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14 minutes ago, ZeManaphy said:

Biden just got Michigan. He only needs Nevada to win. Trump literally needs to win all of the remaining states if he wants to win the election. 

And keep Arizona. Lets hope the ghost of McCain gives Donald a good spook.

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As I understand it, Nevada and Georgia will have updates at 9 pm est, so there may not be much in the way of substantial updates until then. 

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