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Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)

Micaiah or Nohrmui?  

161 members have voted

  1. 1. Who was the better character?



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I think bringing up Micaiah to the Robin vs. Kamui poll is going to cause some topic derail, so if we want to continue to discuss this topic we should do it somewhere else.

So, I'm of the opinion that Micaiah is superior to Kamui by a long shot. Both Micaiah and Nohr!Kamui are kind of unique amongst FE protagonists in that they side with the "morally wrong" side. So how do Micaiah and Kamui stack up in their choices?

Micaiah has more of a reason to pick Daein, for starters, because no one on Daein actively tried to kill her and during the period following the Mad King's War, she actually grew to love the people of Daein and their kindness in the face of adversity. Kamui's reasons for picking Nohr are … well, their siblings. Which is fair, but there is that sort of minor thing where King Garon your so-called father literally tried to kill you twice by the time chapter 6 rolls around. And Kamui has no plan as to what they're going to do once they get back to Nohr.

The narrative treats them differently, too. Micaiah is allowed to do morally questionable things and get called out on it. The game doesn't really see her as a hero or a villain, everything we see is through the actions of the characters in the game. Micaiah knows that history may see her as the villain, but she accepts it because saving Daein is more important to her than how anyone else sees her.

[spoiler=RD excerpt]Micaiah: I… I want to save them all. The world is a better place with people like them in it.

Sothe: I know how you feel, Micaiah. That’s why we started all this. We’ve always been fighting for them. But this war we’re in… It’s not just. We’re fighting on the wrong side.

Micaiah: I know. I don’t want to see anyone die. It’s ironic… I’m killing with no malice, because I don’t want anyone to be killed. I… What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to stand back and let all of Daein perish? Is that the “just” thing to do?

Sothe: …

Micaiah: If that’s what it takes to be just, then I want nothing to do with justice. I’d rather be hated and feared like Mad King Ashnard. I’d rather the dark god take my soul. I’m going to save my people, Sothe. If the rest of the world paints me as a beast to be reviled and hated, so be it.

But Kamui, on the other hand, doesn't really get to morally questionable things and get called out on it. Their (and Aqua's) plan to invade Hoshido (which carries with it a high probability of killing Kamui's Hoshidan siblings and innocent Hoshidans) is akin to doing nothing, and they don't even try to tell the other Nohrian siblings about Garon being a slime monster. But the biggest things that set Kamui and Micaiah apart are 1) the game's narrative and tone regarding them, and 2) the degree of self-centeredness shown by Kamui and Micaiah.

Kamui is very self-centered. The entire conflict is about them. Killing Hoshidans who are only defending their country? Oh no, it's all about Kamui and how it's such a mark on their "pure, innocent" soul to have to spill blood and we should pity them. Those Hoshidans who are going to die? They don't matter, outside of what they do to Kamui's conscience.

[spoiler=Conquest excerpts]Avatar: ... My happiness is a small price to pay for the good of the whole world. I will continue to fight for Nohr and follow my father's every command. If I must sacrifice my soul and walk the path of evil to end this war, so be it. Even if no one understands why I'm doing this... Even if they grow to hate me… (Conquest 15)

Can't find the script for this right now, but in Conquest 24 (Hinoka's chapter), Kamui is just talking about how they have a dream about how after the war (aka after Nohr conquers Hoshido) they want to be able to laugh with their Hoshidan siblings like a family. After one of them may possibly be dead. Without giving a single fuck about how the Hoshidans are probably feeling about them razing their land and betraying them at their lowest point. Nope, all about Kamui.

If I looked long enough, I could probably find other examples, but there is a stark contrast in just how Micaiah and Nohr!Kamui act. Micaiah doesn't throw herself a pity party. She made her decision and she stands resolute with no whining, whereas Nohr!Kamui whines before they throw themselves a pity party, saying how this is for the good of the world and this is going to take such a toll on THEIR happiness with no consideration for the people they are invading. And the story even treats them like a hero for it.

tl;dr Micaiah is the hero that we needed and deserved in Conquest.

Also, please stick to comparing only Nohr!Kamui to Micaiah in this topic. Neither Birthright!Kamui nor Revelations!Kamui are in a similar situation to Micaiah or Nohr!Kamui.

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I'm one of those five people on earth who liked Micaiah in the first place, so I stay with my opinion I like her more then Nohrrin.

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Now, Sunwoo, y u do dis knowing who gon be winner?

Seriously, even though I've never really liked Micaiah for reasons, she is objectively better than Norrin in terms of story and character.

Edited by SaiSymbolic

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Woohoo, dissenting vote!

Can I believe that Corrin is the long-lost heir of another kingdom and makes shitty decisions due to upbringing? Yep.

Can I believe that Micaiah is the long-lost princess of Begnion and the vessel of a goddess who has miraculous healing powers and can see the future? That's a bit much.

In other words, Micaiah's premise is so ridiculous that I can't take her seriously as a character. Corrin, at least, goes through the entire game unaware of just how much ridiculous shit happens because of him/her. IMO the problem with Corrin is the rest of the cast, something that I don't think Corrin should be blamed for.

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I'm one of those five people on earth who liked Micaiah in the first place, so I stay with my opinion I like her more then Nohrrin.

Hi, I'm Micaiah fan #2.

I agree with everything you said Sunwoo. Another thing is that Micaiah recognized she wasn't a natural leader and looked for help. She had a council and listened to her allies. She didn't always make the best decisions but unlike Kamui she also recognized this instead of constantly pitying herself.

As far as the inevitable Mary Sue comparisons, I never felt Micaiah had this problem until the ending when suddenly revelations about her came from everywhere. Before that she is portrayed as a flawed but well-intentioned character. Kamui though is constantly worshipped by all the characters and the story.

Edit:

Woohoo, dissenting vote!

Can I believe that Corrin is the long-lost heir of another kingdom and makes shitty decisions due to upbringing? Yep.

Can I believe that Micaiah is the long-lost princess of Begnion and the vessel of a goddess who has miraculous healing powers and can see the future? That's a bit much.

In other words, Micaiah's premise is so ridiculous that I can't take her seriously as a character.

Kamui is the prince of three kingdoms, the son of a dragon-god who can himself turn into a dragon, and the focus of everyone of importance in Fates' world.

Edited by Book Bro

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Can I believe that Corrin is the long-lost heir of another kingdom and makes shitty decisions due to upbringing? Yep.

Can I believe that Micaiah is the long-lost princess of Begnion and the vessel of a goddess who has miraculous healing powers and can see the future? That's a bit much.

In other words, Micaiah's premise is so ridiculous that I can't take her seriously as a character. Corrin, at least, goes through the entire game unaware of just how much ridiculous shit happens because of him/her. IMO the problem with Corrin is the rest of the cast, something that I don't think Corrin should be blamed for.

If this was solely what Corrin was, I could believe that. But they're not just the long-lost heir of another kingdom who makes shitty decisions due to upbringing. They're also the spawn of the true big bad, can transform into a dragon, was chosen by a magical sword, is the chosen one, gets crowned king/queen at the end of the "golden path," and everyone loves and forgives them even when they're fighting against Kamui. In that respect, Kamui's just as bad as Micaiah get getting unbelievable powers out of the wazoo.

The problem with Corrin isn't just the rest of the cast, though, it's also the way the story is structured. I could accept Kamui as a character even if they acted the way they do now, if they got a good calling out when they deserved it. From Hinoka and the Hoshidans for daring to think that they're a savior to the Hoshidan people after turning on their country when they were partly responsible for the queen's death and then bringing an invasion army to Hoshido. But they're not allowed to be mad, because the story wants us to believe Kamui is a hero. It's not just the other characters who are at fault. It's the narrative as well.

Besides, even if the other characters coddling Kamui is the reason for the way they are, I still find them massively unlikable so that is another mark against them in my books.

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Any "______ vs Kamui" poll is going to lean in _______'s favor.

As I said in the other thread, what really separates Micaiah from Kamui is:

-Micaiah isn't self-righteous about her actions and acknowledges she's doing the unjust thing because she can't stand to sacrifice her people.

And most importantly:

-When Micaiah is put into a situation where she has to compromise her morals, she immediately takes action to remove herself from that situation.

Agency is a huge element of what makes a strong protagonist and Conquest!Kamui is so severely lacking in this department. Micaiah makes mistakes and she owns up to them. Kamui takes no actions and any tragedies are pinned on someone else.

I think the biggest problem for the story is we are never told anything good about Nohr, besides what we know of the playable characters. Daein is portrayed as flawed but still having a lot of good people (and racist people, realistically no nation is perfect). We KNOW Micaiah as a good reason to be fighting, even to go as far as supporting an evil faction. The only thing we can say in Kamui's favor is him wanting to protect his Nohrian siblings, which is a decent excuse but it pales in comparison to what Micaiah fights for. Had the conquest of Hoshido been painted in a sympathetic light and the Nohrian leadership characterized as more than mustache twirling monsters, we could get behind Kamui being a tragic hero.

I'm one of those five people on earth who liked Micaiah in the first place, so I stay with my opinion I like her more then Nohrrin.

Hi, I'm Micaiah fan #2.

I agree with everything you said Sunwoo. Another thing is that Micaiah recognized she wasn't a natural leader and looked for help. She had a council and listened to her allies. She didn't always make the best decisions but unlike Kamui she also recognized this instead of constantly pitying herself.

As far as the inevitable Mary Sue comparisons, I never felt Micaiah had this problem until the ending when suddenly revelations about her came from everywhere. Before that she is portrayed as a flawed but well-intentioned character. Kamui though is constantly worshipped by all the characters and the story.

I am one as well. We must find the other 2.

The only thing I disliked about Micaiah was them stacking on a bunch of "special points" onto her near the end of the narrative, but in general, I thought highly of her personality and role in the story.

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Allow me to introduce myself. I'm Micaiah fan #3,

Anyway, if you are asking me to say who was better handled story-wise, then i guess i am going to have to say Micaiah.

As for the character themselves, i have to say Corrin cause of smash bros bias.

Edit: Make that fan #4. :p

Edited by Blade_of_Light

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Literally read my sig and my answer is obvious.

I'm a Conquest!Corrin fanboy, so yeah, Nohrrin>Failcaiah

Note, I actually like Micaiah, but she comes no where close to how much I like Nohrrin

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Any "______ vs Kamui" poll is going to lean in _______'s favor.

But what if _______ was a jar of dirt, or Iago? Or the king of That-Place-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named?

When I had a problem with Micaiah, the problem I had with her was that 1) in part 3, she was the one who was being obtrusive towards peace effort, and yet Ena's the one telling Ike and Sanaki to stop attacking Daein, and 2) kind of like Kamui, Micaiah didn't make an effort to reach out to people outside of the situation at all.

And yeah, I know, blood pact. But Micaiah was able to tell Nailah and Rafiel and Kurthnaga, who in turn sided with Daein (hates Rafiel forever for being the reason the war against Begnion started, and then spitting on all those who are fighting for him). But then Nailah and Kurthnaga are all "no, we can't tell you, you wouldn't understand". Not with that attitude, they won't. Which does reek of what I dislike out of Kamui in Conquest. And then she became too "special" in part 4 and was barely a character with Yune popping in as often as she did. But I can appreciate that Micaiah's enemies didn't worship her or think she did nothing wrong at the end, and the game makes it very clear that they are outmatched by the Greil Mercenaries and superior armies, and only the Daein people worshipped her. Not the whole game.

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I can appreciate that Micaiah's enemies didn't worship her or think she did nothing wrong at the end, and the game makes it very clear that they are outmatched by the Greil Mercenaries and superior armies, and only the Daein people worshipped her. Not the whole game.

Micaiah also earned her positive reputation within Daein by fighting against superior odds to liberate her people. Kamui is worshiped just for existing and being the chosen one.

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If this was solely what Corrin was, I could believe that. But they're not just the long-lost heir of another kingdom who makes shitty decisions due to upbringing. They're also the spawn of the true big bad, can transform into a dragon, was chosen by a magical sword, is the chosen one, gets crowned king/queen at the end of the "golden path," and everyone loves and forgives them even when they're fighting against Kamui. In that respect, Kamui's just as bad as Micaiah get getting unbelievable powers out of the wazoo.

The problem with Corrin isn't just the rest of the cast, though, it's also the way the story is structured. I could accept Kamui as a character even if they acted the way they do now, if they got a good calling out when they deserved it. From Hinoka and the Hoshidans for daring to think that they're a savior to the Hoshidan people after turning on their country when they were partly responsible for the queen's death and then bringing an invasion army to Hoshido. But they're not allowed to be mad, because the story wants us to believe Kamui is a hero. It's not just the other characters who are at fault. It's the narrative as well.

Besides, even if the other characters coddling Kamui is the reason for the way they are, I still find them massively unlikable so that is another mark against them in my books.

You're asking specifically about Nohr Corrin, who doesn't get crowned. Hence why I limited my response.

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You're asking specifically about Nohr Corrin, who doesn't get crowned. Hence why I limited my response.

Fair enough. Outside of being crowned, though, everything else still applies.

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Fair enough. Outside of being crowned, though, everything else still applies.

Not quite. Corrin's true heritage is never brought up in Nohr (and only briefly hinted at in Revelations), and the dragon transformation is mentioned early and dropped afterwards. The sword thing and the chosen stuff is fine, but Prf-locked weapons is a trope throughout FE, and I'd have to dislike a lot of characters based on that alone. The other characters treating Corrin the way they do is something that I think is their fault, not Corrin's.

Notice how everything I dislike about Micaiah is inherit to her, and only her. Corrin's innate characteristics are becoming the decision-maker despite being otherwise unfit for it, turning into a dragon, and having some sword choose him/her. Corrin's more of a "things happen to me" character (which I blame on the rest of the cast), while Micaiah's traits are "look at how different I am from everyone else". The latter is the type of character I don't care for.

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Micaiah Fan #6, reporting. And yeah, Micaiah is pretty much everything they were going for with Nohrrin but done well, especially since the narrative and the characters are more than willing to take issue with her horrible actions, and Micaiah actually is willing to commit to her actions for the sake of Daein instead of trying to delude herself into thinking she's doing the best thing for everyone like Nohrrin does. The stuff that was laid on in Endgame got a little silly after the whole "Yune's vessel" thing, but Micaiah is hardly the worst offender in that department in Tellius so I'm willing to give her a pass on it.

Especially compared to Sephiran, who she inherited most of those powers from.

Edited by AzureSen

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Even if Kamui's true heritage is never brought up in Nohr, I'd still count it because it's not something that happens only on one route. Kamui not inheriting the crown in Conquest is a fair point, but regardless of whether it's brought up or not Kamui is always the spawn of the big bad. It's not like it stops being a thing, so I feel it counts. Even if the dragon transformation is dropped early in the story, it's still there to make them more special. And even if Yato is a Prf weapon, the game actually bothers to give you an in-story reason and showing of how it "picked" you, and the tribes and the rainbow sage all blabber about how the Yato is the sword of the chosen hero come to save the world. I'd say that Yato is more than just your average Prf weapon.

If you dislike the type of character that Micaiah is, that's fair enough. But other than the things that made her special, Micaiah is treated more realistically by the story, especially in character interactions towards her. Regardless of whether Kamui is an "everything happens to me" character, they were clearly written in a manner so that the entire cast could worship them. I don't think explaining Kamui's character is as simple as blaming the rest of the cast.

On Conquest Kamui is written as a self-centered and whiny person. And this is before we factor in how the other characters treat them. Nohr!Kamui was always going to lose points from me because of that.

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@Sunwoo, RD excerpts made me love Micaiah more than ever. I'm against the idea of which side is "morally" the right one, the only point I disagree with, but that's subjective. Siding with Daein isn't morally wrong because Micaiah is trying to Liberate them from Begnion's Oppression. Now, she and Pelleas may have done things the wrong way due to the Blood Pact etc., but in the end, things went the right way, everyone against the Begnion Senate and Sephiran.

But Corrin and the Nohrian siblings messed up everything by following DEAR FATHER. All of them are at fault here (specially Xander, Corrin and Azura; siblings more or less), because implicitly they knew since the beginning Garon was evil; they just don't accept it or want to play the fool.

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Even if Kamui's true heritage is never brought up in Nohr, I'd still count it because it's not something that happens only on one route. Kamui not inheriting the crown in Conquest is a fair point, but regardless of whether it's brought up or not Kamui is always the spawn of the big bad. It's not like it stops being a thing, so I feel it counts. Even if the dragon transformation is dropped early in the story, it's still there to make them more special. And even if Yato is a Prf weapon, the game actually bothers to give you an in-story reason and showing of how it "picked" you, and the tribes and the rainbow sage all blabber about how the Yato is the sword of the chosen hero come to save the world. I'd say that Yato is more than just your average Prf weapon.

If you dislike the type of character that Micaiah is, that's fair enough. But other than the things that made her special, Micaiah is treated more realistically by the story, especially in character interactions towards her. Regardless of whether Kamui is an "everything happens to me" character, they were clearly written in a manner so that the entire cast could worship them. I don't think explaining Kamui's character is as simple as blaming the rest of the cast.

On Conquest Kamui is written as a self-centered and whiny person. And this is before we factor in how the other characters treat them. Nohr!Kamui was always going to lose points from me because of that.

You won't know that about Corrin unless you bought the DLC. A straight run of Nohr does not give out that detail, and again, that's what I'm basing this on. There's a hint that SOMETHING is up with Corrin (since his/her siblings don't turn into dragons), but that's about it.

If we gave Corrin the same strength of character interactions that Micaiah had, and he/she still turned out a la the end of Nohr, I'd agree. Likewise, if everyone worshipped Micaiah like Corrin, you'd probably be a lot less happy with her. If it's a matter of character interactions, with one side influencing the other, then it really is the rest of the cast's fault.

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I like Miciah more than Corrin, but I am going to be honest here. This is like comparing apples to oranges.

Their situations are too different. Micaiah's choice came down to the fact that she cared about the people of her kingdom. She was forced to not let the other kingdoms know of the true situation due to a dumbass king, and it essentially forced her to have to fight the others. Her ruthlessness and actions were of the idea to end it as fast as she can. Sure, lots will die in the process, but the needs of a few outway the needs of the many in her mind, and especially her people, the people of Daien. At least that is what I understand of it. I may be a little wrong, but my information is a bit rusty since I havent actually played in a few years outside of actually finishing the final boss.

Corrin's decision comes down to wanting to change things from within the kingdom. At least that is what it was supposed to be. Corrin himself did nothing inherently wrong in the story except for blindly follow Azura's plan, but Azura is at fault for that as well. You can actually say many of his problems stem from the people around him. None of them were willing to correct his mistakes. Mistakes are inevitable, especially when you are raised almost the same way Rapunzel was in the fairy tales. Its why the event in Cheve made sense to happen, the biggest failure of Corrin. His mistake cost lots of lives, it should of been a learning point, and you can see it was, but in the end nothing came of it.

I think Corrin by himself was a great Protaganist. He was flawed, he made mistakes, and he wasnt always right. That is a good thing though because it gives the room for growth in a character. Unfortunately that all goes to waste because of the sub-par writing of Conquest.

Of course Corrin became a little whiny and confused of his situation, who wouldnt? Keep in mind everything that happens from Chapter 4-6 happens in the span of a few days. So in that time Corrin learns he has another family he never heard of, including a mother and a father that was killed by Garon. He also learns Garon had kidnapped him after his father's death and hid him away in a tower all his life. He learns that he has the ability to turn into a dragon. His mother dies. He is chosen by some mythological sword that has only been wielded by heroes, and is then forced to to choose which family and kingdom to side with, his new family he didnt know he had, or his adopted siblings that have cared for him for years. At the same time though the new family is clearly the victims, and the family he knows is the aggressors, making his decision impact not only himself and those he loves, but also countless lives. What the hell would you do in that situation?

Edited by Tolvir

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micaiah fan number 7 here what a lucky number!

honestly i don't mind corrin either, but micaiah has more going for her in terms of narrative and being treated as an grey figure rather then corrin who's "a white figure pretending to be a grey one".

i'm not sure if that makes any sense typing it out, but i can explain it better if needed.

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eclipse has said everything that I was thinking while reading through this thread,

from a gameplay perspective, at least Corrin can handle an axe or 2 to the face before droping dead in the first few chapters

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I find Corrin to be a more interesting character than Micaiah personally and the only major difference in terms of story is that one suffers from protagonist-centered morality and the other doesn't, so I'll vote Corrin.

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I wasn't a Micaiah fan until I realised you're not supposed to think she did the right thing. That's the key difference between her and Corrin.

Corrin's more of a "things happen to me" character (which I blame on the rest of the cast), while Micaiah's traits are "look at how different I am from everyone else". The latter is the type of character I don't care for.

How exactly is the ability to turn into a dragon not an example of the latter?

And even if Yato is a Prf weapon, the game actually bothers to give you an in-story reason and showing of how it "picked" you, and the tribes and the rainbow sage all blabber about how the Yato is the sword of the chosen hero come to save the world. I'd say that Yato is more than just your average Prf weapon.

IMO, it's more of a "Falchion" type prf weapon than a "Rapier" type prf weapon.

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