Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

you can't just change hundreds of years of racism with a clap of the hands afterall, these things take time, realistically it'd take at least an entire generation of "racism is bad guys lets not do it anymore" propaganda to change things.

also i love how people like to forget the only group of people that aren't racist to some extend are the protags party, with the exception of shinion.

also that the racism towards humans and sub humans is a two way street, the laguz hate the beorc as much as the beorc hate the laguz.

and both of them hate the branded, insert bisexual comparison where it doesn't belong here.

Edited May 16, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[BrightBow]

side-note: What i also really dislike about that whole canyon thing, is when Ike and co. have Micaiah and co. surrounded and Sanaki orders to just let them go..........

Why???? So they can try to pour oil on you again?????? Her reasoning for this is also very stupid. ''I've seen enough bloodshed for one day''. Great, so just let them go so they can attack you again later(which they are saying in your face that they will) and cause more bloodshed.

Well, the entire conflict between Daein and the Army of the Empress is ridiculously contrived, I hope we can all agree on that. Even ignoring the Blood Pact, they didn't even have to go through Daein in the first place, nevermind the idiocy of leaving themselves so vulnerable. The script needed Sanaki to pull back her forces to prevent the Daein army from being crushed right there, so that's what ended up happening.

What's interesting about Radiant Dawn's script is that even at the pinnacle of Part 3's stupidity and despite our version of the script being shortened, it still tries really hard for the characters to come across as rational and to acknowledge all the options that the characters have. Obviously they failed spectacularly and we ended up with bullshit like omnipresent Begnion spies among many, many other things. But I still an fascinating contrast to how Awakening simply expects the audience to take everything at face value. (Sorry for bringing up Awakening but I have yet to play Fates since it only comes out this week in Europe. Not that I expect Fates to be any better in that regard.)

Anyway, I think that's it's unfair to expect Micaiah to have done a whole lot in regards to the Laguz discrimination. Even in Crimea after decades of efforts of the royal family, the citizens were still racist as hell. There is a info conversation in the game that shows that Crimea's people see their bigotry challenged by the fact that Gallia liberated their country and that in the 3 years since then they could see with their own eyes how the Laguz are helping to rebuild their country. So we know that their attitude is shifting slowly. But such a thing didn't happen in Daein, so it's people have little reason to change. Heck, maybe they became worse are they rediscovered their national pride.

Also, Micaiah is a Branded, so she has good reason to feel vulnerable when trying to fight the bigotry that she herself would be a target of. And we know that she is terrified that they might find out the truth about her.

you can't just change hundreds of years of racism with a clap of the hands afterall, these things take time, realistically it'd take at least an entire generation of "racism is bad guys lets not do it anymore" propaganda to change things.

You totally can do that. Caineghis could end the hatred of the Daein people in an instant if he would just throw himself off a mountain after telling the Daein people to stop being such a bunch of babies.

Edited May 16, 2016 by BrightBow

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

but even if that did happen, daein would go back to hating laguz again in two years, just like how Plegian was all like "ok we won't do wars anymore" and then two years later was all "ALLU GRIMA! ALLU GRIMA! WE DINNA DU NUFFIN!"

god damn awakening's script is cancer.

[Water Mage]

also i love how people like to forget the only group of people that aren't racist to some extend are the protags party, with the exception of shinion.

[/s]

Actually, Soren is pretty racist as well and Mist, Boyd and Oscar are shown to be actually uncomfortable around laguz.

And like many other said, it's no suprise Daien is still racist, you can't change years of bigotry so quickly.

And I remember reading somewhere that the reason Daein separated from Begnion, was because Begnion wasn't racist enough towards the laguz.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I am ashamed that I forgot all of that, considering I just read an LP of Radiant Dawn specifically for this thread.

I'd like to point out that the whole "hunting" thing during the war with the Laguz Alliance is pretty murky because, again, someone was offering a hefty bounty for every laguz corpse turned in. It's awful, but it being motivated purely by racism (though I doubt it wasn't fueled by at least a little) is dubious at best.

I think my point escaped from me a little, so allow me to clarify: whatever racism Daein did or didn't possess doesn't justify the claim that they were somehow unfit to be allowed sovereignty again, especially when compared to Begnion, who did actually attempt genocide against the laguz twice and actively kept a trade of laguz slaves going for centuries.

Yeah, okay, that's a fair point. Begnion certainly has no morale high-ground to stand on here. However, I can also see why that comparison may work in reverse to make Daein look worse. Consider that all of those crimes are tied to the mustache-twirling Senate, who are seen as the epitome of evil and corruption, the sort of blight Sanaki has been working to reform. PoR drills this in and then RD pours it on even harder. So when Daein does similar, the whole evil and corruption thing gets linked to it too. So they end up looking unfit from a meta perspective, even if their potential watchdog isn't any better. In-universe, I don't think anyone with enough clout would have brought that up, since either they wouldn't care or there's plenty of other, clear-cut political reasons from recent days that they could bring forward. Barring maybe the Senate, who could probably have made a (hypocritical) show of it as an excuse to retain control of Daein and push their whole saintly image, but they obviously had other plans.

[Augestein]

Welp, this topic has convinced me to watch a walkthrough of the Tellius series (can't play it since I'm studying abroad) and refresh all of those three-year-old memories. Screw books, papers and finals, I've got video game dialogue to read!

No but seriously I always study hard but by all the gods in my pantheon I've got so much shit to do and I need some kind of outlet.

As am I. I can't believe it's been like 7 years since I've played these games with the story read. DLuna needs to finish his redux so I can play it, have fun, and revitalize my ... Love for the story? What...!?

[BruceLee]

Micaiah and Daein were thrust into war the moment she rose to power (and she's not even the leader of the country). I think it's safe to say she didn't like the racism and would have made efforts to curb it after the war but she can't just snap her fingers and say "Okay everyone, let go of your long standing prejudices because I said so."

Also, it should be said that all Beorc nations (even Crimea) were racist to some degree, Daein just happened to be the worst.

Obviously she can't snap her fingers and tell them to stop. But she comes off as if she's doesn't even try. As i said, she asks tormod and co. to break bread with Izuka after finding out he created the feral one's and used the drug on muarim(who was helping them win back their freaking country). Why the hell is she asking them to break bread with Izuka instead of dealing with the fucker? That was just stupid and ignorant of her to say that.

Also she's constantly talking about how she'll sacrifice people(innocents) from other countries to protect the people of Daein, the people that are excited about hunting down the laguz.

also that the racism towards humans and sub humans is a two way street, the laguz hate the beorc as much as the beorc hate the laguz.

Way to simplify things. Let's remember that laguz and beorc lived in harmony until the beorc attacked the laguz and enslaved them for centuries.

What's interesting about Radiant Dawn's script is that even at the pinnacle of Part 3's stupidity and despite our version of the script being shortened, it still tries really hard for the characters to come across as rational and to acknowledge all the options that the characters have. Obviously they failed spectacularly and we ended up with bullshit like omnipresent Begnion spies among many, many other things. But I still an fascinating contrast to how Awakening simply expects the audience to take everything at face value. (Sorry for bringing up Awakening but I have yet to play Fates since it only comes out this week in Europe. Not that I expect Fates to be any better in that regard.)

That's true, at least the writers we're still trying back then....

Edited May 17, 2016 by BruceLee

[Sunwoo]

Way to simplify things. Let's remember that laguz and beorc lived in harmony until the beorc attacked the laguz and enslaved them for centuries.

Nasir says in PoR that there have been times when the laguz dominated the beorc, in the boat chapter. Even if all we see is the beorc oppressing the laguz, the dragon laguz says there have been times in history when the opposite was the case.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Way to simplify things. Let's remember that laguz and beorc lived in harmony until the beorc attacked the laguz and enslaved them for centuries.

Nasir says in PoR that there have been times when the laguz dominated the beorc, in the boat chapter. Even if all we see is the beorc oppressing the laguz, the dragon laguz says there have been times in history when the opposite was the case.

now who's the one simplifying things?

this is exactly what i mean by people just remembering stuff wrong about the Tellius games, something i am too, guilty of if Water Mage is correct, who i have no reason to doubt.

people will happily be ignorant and write their own version of history if it makes them feel better and adds fuel to whatever propaganda they are pushing, I wish I'd stop being proven time and time again but it always happens with Tellius related topics, let alone in real life, which i won't bring up real life politics into this. #Laguzlifesmatter #Laguzdidn'tdonothing.

Edited May 17, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Azure Sen]

Yeah, okay, that's a fair point. Begnion certainly has no morale high-ground to stand on here. However, I can also see why that comparison may work in reverse to make Daein look worse. Consider that all of those crimes are tied to the mustache-twirling Senate, who are seen as the epitome of evil and corruption, the sort of blight Sanaki has been working to reform. PoR drills this in and then RD pours it on even harder. So when Daein does similar, the whole evil and corruption thing gets linked to it too. So they end up looking unfit from a meta perspective, even if their potential watchdog isn't any better. In-universe, I don't think anyone with enough clout would have brought that up, since either they wouldn't care or there's plenty of other, clear-cut political reasons from recent days that they could bring forward. Barring maybe the Senate, who could probably have made a (hypocritical) show of it as an excuse to retain control of Daein and push their whole saintly image, but they obviously had other plans.

The Serenes Massacre was definitely orchestrated by the Senate, but it was carried out by the citizens of Begnion. Before they found out about the true masterminds from Rafiel, everyone just assumed Ashnard was behind it and Misaha's assassination. Similarly, the laguz slave trade was participated in by everyone in Begnion before it was outlawed and the Senators continued it in secret. The Senate were also corrupt for reasons unrelated to their treatment of the laguz.

(Then again, the Begnion Senate is, according to the Lethe/Jill support chain in PoR, responsible for literally all of the racism in modern beorc society, but Lethe is Lethe and thus not entirely unbiased.)

Obviously she can't snap her fingers and tell them to stop. But she comes off as if she's doesn't even try. As i said, she asks tormod and co. to break bread with Izuka after finding out he created the feral one's and used the drug on muarim(who was helping them win back their freaking country). Why the hell is she asking them to break bread with Izuka instead of dealing with the fucker? That was just stupid and ignorant of her to say that.

Except it was Pelleas, not Micaiah, who apologized in Izuka's place and asked them to forgive him. Micaiah showed just as much disgust at Izuka's actions as Tormod.

Way to simplify things. Let's remember that laguz and beorc lived in harmony until the beorc attacked the laguz and enslaved them for centuries.

Except they didn't. Even before the enslavement, there had already been a war between the two races. Heck, preventing another war between the beorc and the laguz was the reason why the Three Idiots Heroes knowingly spread the discrimination against the Branded (arguably perpetuating the cycle of hatred, given Hatari's state of affairs).

Edited May 17, 2016 by AzureSen

[BruceLee]

Nasir says in PoR that there have been times when the laguz dominated the beorc, in the boat chapter. Even if all we see is the beorc oppressing the laguz, the dragon laguz says there have been times in history when the opposite was the case.

Yes but that's rather vague. Lethe says in her support with Jill that Laguz and Beorc lived in harmony until the Beorc enslaved them. And before that happened they we're all(except for the Dragons) living in Begnion together, with a Beorc as king. So it makes sense for what Nasir is talking about happened after the slavery started.

[Augestein]

now who's the one simplifying things?

this is exactly what i mean by people just remembering stuff wrong about the Tellius games, something i am too, guilty of if Water Mage is correct, who i have no reason to doubt.

people will happily be ignorant and write their own version of history if it makes them feel better and adds fuel to whatever propaganda they are pushing, I wish I'd stop being proven time and time again but it always happens with Tellius related topics.

I don't think it's that they're doing all of that, they are simply miss remembering. You have to remember that PoR came out over a decade ago. I sincerely doubt that people are being "happily ignorant" and writing their own version of history to feel better. That's a fairly aggressive stance to take over events the person could have read/witnessed (if they watched someone play), so long ago.

Yes but that's rather vague. Lethe says in her support with Jill that Laguz and Beorc lived in harmony until the Beorc enslaved them. And before that happened they we're all(except for the Dragons) living in Begnion together, with a Beorc as king. So it makes sense for what Nasir is talking about happened after the slavery started.

Lethe is also a terrible basis to use as concrete evidence without multiple people backing her up on the account of her bias. Sort of like you wouldn't take Ike's perspective on nobles with a grain of salt because he has a bias against them.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Augestein

[BruceLee]

now who's the one simplifying things?

this is exactly what i mean by people just remembering stuff wrong about the Tellius games, something i am too, guilty of if Water Mage is correct, who i have no reason to doubt.

people will happily be ignorant and write their own version of history if it makes them feel better and adds fuel to whatever propaganda they are pushing, I wish I'd stop being proven time and time again but it always happens with Tellius related topics, let alone in real life, which i won't bring up real life politics into this. #Laguzlifesmatter #Laguzdidn'tdonothing.

What are you being so edgy for?

Except it was Pelleas, not Micaiah, who apologized in Izuka's place and asked them to forgive him. Micaiah showed just as much disgust at Izuka's actions as Tormod.

I didn't say she wasn't against it, i said she wasn't trying hard enough to change it.

Even before the enslavement, there had already been a war between the two races.

Which doesn't counter what i said. And can you tell me where that was said please?

Edited May 17, 2016 by BruceLee

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I don't think it's that they're doing all of that, they are simply miss remembering. You have to remember that PoR came out over a decade ago. I sincerely doubt that people are being "happily ignorant" and writing their own version of history to feel better. That's a fairly aggressive stance to take over events the person could have read/witnessed (if they watched someone play), so long ago.

i admit i am getting pretty heated and dedicated to an internet topic that i shouldn't.

it does kill me that people can't remember every single detail about their favorite game in the franchise like i can, nevermind that i forgot soren's racism, poking fun at myself here.

EDIT: going to take a break for afew hours from the topic to get my head back on.

Edited May 17, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[BruceLee]

Lethe is also a terrible basis to use as concrete evidence without multiple people backing her up on the account of her bias. Sort of like you wouldn't take Ike's perspective on nobles with a grain of salt because he has a bias against them.

I get why you'd think that, but i doubt Lethe was twisting the truth in that convo seeing as she was being quite sincere with Jill, it is a touchy subject after all.

I think she was telling it how she knew it, to see what Jill's response would be.

Edited May 17, 2016 by BruceLee

[Azure Sen]

I didn't say she wasn't against, i said she wasn't trying hard enough to change it.

You gave an inaccurate example of how she wasn't trying hard enough to change it, I corrected you.

Which doesn't counter what i said. Also can you tell me where that was said?

In Endgame-3, Yune discusses the war between the beorc and laguz that lead to her to accidentally flooding the world. In Endgame-4, Gareth and Nasir explain why the Three Heroes, Dheginsea in particular, originally hid the origin of the Branded (namely, that because Branded only appeared to be beorc and siring/conceiving a Branded removed a laguz's powers, they feared it would cause more conflict among the laguz and the beorc.)

Also, the beorc and the laguz being in conflict basically from when they first started evolving differently from each other pretty clearly contradicts the idea of the beorc and the laguz living in harmony until the Begnion Senate enslaved the laguz.

I get why you'd think that, but i doubt Lethe was twisting the truth in that convo seeing as she was being quite sincere with Jill, it is a touchy subject after all.

I think she was telling it how she knew it, to see what Jill's response would be.

I'm more inclined to believe the ones who were there or who got their information from someone who was there (Sephiran, Yune herself, Gareth, Nasir) than I am to believe Lethe.

Edited May 17, 2016 by AzureSen

[Shotguner159]

Also she's constantly talking about how she'll sacrifice people(innocents) from other countries to protect the people of Daein, the people that are excited about hunting down the laguz.

What? There's like 1 time she says something like that, and even then:

Micaiah: I know. I don’t want to see anyone die. It’s ironic… I’m killing with no malice, because I don’t want anyone to be killed. I… What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to stand back and let all of Daein perish? Is that the “just” thing to do?

Sothe: …

Micaiah: If that’s what it takes to be just, then I want nothing to do with justice. I’d rather be hated and feared like Mad King Ashnard. I’d rather the dark god take my soul. I’m going to save my people, Sothe. If the rest of the world paints me as a beast to be reviled and hated, so be it.

That's not exactly talking about sacrificing people from other countries to save the people of Daein.

Which doesn't counter what i said. And can you tell me where that was said please?

The conflict between the Laguz and Beorc is literally older than the words Laguz and Beorc.

Yune: The Zunanma continued to evolve and change, giving rise to a variety of races and tribes across the land. Naturally, each of the races thought their own was superior to the others, and conflict arose between them. The goddess tries to make peace among her people, but nothing could stop the warring Zunanma. Trying to separate the factions, the goddess gave them different names, laguz and beorc... But this only intensified their conflict.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Shotguner159

[BruceLee]

You gave an inaccurate example of how she wasn't trying hard enough to change it, I corrected you.

Except what i said is the truth, she did ask them to break bread with Izuka, which makes me think she isn't taking him and his feral business as seriously as she should be, even if she did express disgust.

In Endgame-3, Yune discusses the war between the beorc and laguz that lead to her to accidentally flooding the world. In Endgame-4, Gareth and Nasir explain why the Three Heroes, Dheginsea in particular, originally hid the origin of the Branded (namely, that because Branded only appeared to be beorc and siring/conceiving a Branded removed a laguz's powers, they feared it would cause more conflict among the laguz and the beorc.)

Also, the beorc and the laguz being in conflict basically from when they first started evolving differently from each other pretty clearly contradicts the idea of the beorc and the laguz living in harmony until the Begnion Senate enslaved the laguz.

Yes, the beorc and laguz were in conflict since the start, but there seems to have been a time where they started living in harmony, and then the beorc enslaved them. So looking at the present Tellius, it's simplifying to say the racism is a two way street, the laguz have a good reason to hate the beorc, but do the beorc?

Edited May 17, 2016 by BruceLee

[Sunwoo]

now who's the one simplifying things?

What am I simplifying

Yes but that's rather vague. Lethe says in her support with Jill that Laguz and Beorc lived in harmony until the Beorc enslaved them. And before that happened they we're all(except for the Dragons) living in Begnion together, with a Beorc as king. So it makes sense for what Nasir is talking about happened after the slavery started.

Lethe's a laguz who hates beorc and has not been around as long as Nasir, no duh she's going to be biased. Between Nasir and Lethe, I'd rather take what Nasir is saying as closer to truth, and the real truth is that you probably can't trust either wholly. And even if it's vague, the fact that it's there at all is a lot more than whatever the hell Fates gives us about moral ambiguity in Hoshido and Nohr.

[BruceLee]

What? There's like 1 time she says something like that, and even then:

That's not exactly talking about sacrificing people from other countries to save the people of Daein.

She also says something along the lines of ''If one side has to fall, i'll make sure it's not Daein''. Can't remember when it was. And her actions say enough as well.

Lethe's a laguz who hates beorc and has not been around as long as Nasir, no duh she's going to be biased. Between Nasir and Lethe, I'd rather take what Nasir is saying as closer to truth, and the real truth is that you probably can't trust either wholly. And even if it's vague, the fact that it's there at all is a lot more than whatever the hell Fates gives us about moral ambiguity in Hoshido and Nohr.

Why can't they both be telling the truth? Their stories aren't contradicting each other.

And as i said already, there's no reason for Lethe to be lying in her support with Jill.

Edited May 17, 2016 by BruceLee

[Sunwoo]

Why can't they both be telling the truth? Their stories aren't contradicting each other.

And as i said already, there's no reason for Lethe to be lying in her support with Jill.

I don't think Lethe is lying. I think she doesn't have the whole story and is telling what she THINKS is the whole story, when it really is not.

Just think. In PoR and RD, no one knew what the "truth" was until Yune woke up and explained it to everyone. While Deghinsea spreading shit about Yune being a dark god is outright lying, since he knows that's not true, someone who's only repeating what they've always been told is the truth is not necessarily lying since it's not their fault that the true story didn't get passed down to them.

Lethe doesn't have to be lying for her to still be wrong. Things get twisted and warped as history goes on, either due to someone's political agenda or memories being faulty. Look no further than in the real world, and you'll see why it's more realistic that Lethe is only repeating what she knows, which isn't the full truth.

[Azure Sen]

Except what i said is the truth, she did ask them to break bread with Izuka, which makes me think she isn't taking him and his feral business as seriously as she should be, even if she did express disgust.

No she didn't. I'm looking at a transcript at the events of that scene right now. Here are all of her lines in that scene:

"Then it was you! You secretly gave Muarim the drug to turn him into a Feral One!"

"You twisted maniac! You are the lowest--"

"Prince Pelleas..."

[after Tormod leaves and Sothe tries to stop him] "Let him go..."

Meanwhile, here's what Pelleas says:

"Everybody! Wait, please! Izuka clearly did a terrible thing to that sub-hum--that laguz, I apologize. Tormod... I'm truly sorry. He will not use the drug again. So, please... Try to forgive him..."

Tormod and Micaiah don't have another scene together after this, so I'd like to know where this supposed conversation happened.

Why can't they both be telling the truth? Their stories aren't contradicting each other.

And as i said already, there's no reason for Lethe to be lying in her support with Jill.

Or she could just be misinformed? It was noted in Endgame-4 that the truth of Tellius's history had been twisted by centuries of lies, both deliberate and accidental, which is not hard to do over the span of ~1000 years.

Edited May 17, 2016 by AzureSen

[Augestein]

I get why you'd think that, but i doubt Lethe was twisting the truth in that convo seeing as she was being quite sincere with Jill, it is a touchy subject after all.

I think she was telling it how she knew it, to see what Jill's response would be.

I don't doubt for a second that Lethe was twisting the truth at all. I think she was just out and out mistaken here. That's what I'm getting at. As in, she didn't know the entire truth of the matter-- sort of like how Path of Radiance would have you believing that Yune was the "Dark God." She's just a goddess of chaos, but hardly the ominous cloud that hung over everyone in PoR. The characters themselves say this is what it is, but they are all unreliable sources because they don't specifically know what the medallion holds or *does*.

Whoa... That was weird... So many posts saying the same thing. Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was bullying you if that happened.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Augestein

[BruceLee]

I get what you guys are saying, and things in history did get twisted, but what makes you guys think what Lethe said isn't correct? She was talking about how the slavery started, and nothing contradicts what she said. Yes, Beorc and Laguz were in conflict from the start, but according to Lethe there was a period were they lived together in begnion in peace, and then the slavery happened.

No she didn't. I'm looking at a transcript at the events of that scene right now. Here are all of her lines in that scene:

"Then it was you! You secretly gave Muarim the drug to turn him into a Feral One!"

"You twisted maniac! You are the lowest--"

"Prince Pelleas..."

[after Tormod leaves and Sothe tries to stop him] "Let him go..."

Meanwhile, here's what Pelleas says:

"Everybody! Wait, please! Izuka clearly did a terrible thing to that sub-hum--that laguz, I apologize. Tormod... I'm truly sorry. He will not use the drug again. So, please... Try to forgive him..."

Tormod and Micaiah don't have another scene together after this, so I'd like to know where this supposed conversation happened.

End of part 1 mate, when Tormod/Nailah/Rafiel/Vika/Muarim leave the Daein army.

[Sunwoo]

I get what you guys are saying, and things in history did get twisted, but what makes you guys think what Lethe said isn't correct? She was talking about how the slavery started, and nothing contradicts what she said. Yes, Beorc and Laguz were in conflict from the start, but according to Lethe there was a period were they lived together in begnion in peace, and then the slavery happened.

You're the one who's clearly ignoring what Nasir said in favor of pointing at what Lethe said instead, even though there's nothing to suggest that Lethe is more right than Nasir and in fact is probably the other way around just because Nasir has been around so much longer and has less bias.

In any case, why isn't this timeline of events possible: laguz and beorc lived in peace, and then the laguz began to oppress the beorc. After some period of oppression, the two races lived in peace again until the beorc then started to enslave the laguz? In that case, clearly neither is lying but Lethe doesn't have the full story either.