Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)

[Baldrick]

Muarim didn't chill with any Branded killers, but Micaiah did not chill with Izuka. By your own admission, she was digusted with him.

If my arguments are weak, why can't you answer my questions?

[NekoKnight]

Is Muarim chilling with a person who experiments on and tortures branded?

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Wasn't she? Tell me what she did about his crimes, besides express disgust.

And Micaiah is Pelleas's fangirl.

''I disagree with attacking black people, but i feel it's in the best interest of my racist buddies here so ima be the inspiring leader they need. Sorry black people.''

You keep acting like Micaiah is indifferent to the treatment of Laguz when everything in the game says she does care (to the point of crying when she didn't realize how unwelcome Tormod and Muarim felt).

I'll say it again, hopefully for the final time. Izuka is Pelleas' chosen adviser and she can't do anything against him. Micaiah would be committing treason to punish him. Micaiah is not Pelleas' fangirl, she's his subject and she allows her duty to country to supersede her personal wishes.

As far as attacking the Laguz Alliance is concerned, it's a military interest (as decided by Pelleas under coercion by Begnion) so the race of the enemy is irrelevant. Had Pelleas ordered her to attack Crimean soldiers, it would be exactly the same.

Edited May 17, 2016 by NekoKnight

[BruceLee]

You keep acting like Micaiah is indifferent to the treatment of Laguz

You're right, she's not indifferent to it, she's willingly participating in it.

Micaiah is not Pelleas' fangirl, she's his subject and she allows her duty to country to supersede her personal wishes.

She keeps saying she trusts and believes in him. Instead of talking to him about doing something about Izuka, she listens to him when he tells her to attack the laguz alliance.

As far as attacking the Laguz Alliance is concerned, it's a military interest (as decided by Pelleas under coercion by Begnion)

Not as far as Micaiah is concerned. All she knows is that she believes in Pelleas and her soldiers who are excited about hunting down the laguz.

the race of the enemy is irrelevant.

Now who's ignoring the context?

Edited May 17, 2016 by BruceLee

[blah the Prussian]

Not an apt comparison for several reasons, not least that it happened decades after the War for Independence. I thought you were supposed to be a history buff, that's common knowledge.Or are you saying that Micaiah should start the war after Daein has had 80 years to stabilise post Begnion occupation? (she could live that long).

Are you saying that if the Founding Fathers had decided to ban slavery immediately that would have been a bad decision? Who's going to attack Daein? Elincia doesn't want to do that, Begnion just got done being there, and it isn't bordered by any other states. Not to mention the Civil War was about passing a law; all Micaiah would do would be to support the Laguz, likely leading to wider support for the government.

[Moblin Major General]

^Note that Daein was faced with a Nazi Germany-like occupation, not a colonization over 150 or so years like the Continental Colonies. When the Constitution was written, there was already a looming threat of Civil War because slavery wasn't considered in the Articles Government, and the 3/5 Compromise was still rather controversial. Daein is almost like if a country was liberated from Germany but turned the Shoah up to 11. There isn't a way to fix that kind of situation.

[Baldrick]

Are you saying that if the Founding Fathers had decided to ban slavery immediately that would have been a bad decision?

It would have been a noble act for sure, but sensible? I'm no expert, but I can't imagine they would have had the support Lincoln did.

Not to mention the Civil War was about passing a law; all Micaiah would do would be to support the Laguz, likely leading to wider support for the government.

Jill says Daein citizens are taught that laguz are savage animals that attack humans indiscriminately and without mercy.

Micaiah would have to do quite a bit more than that.

[blah the Prussian]

^Note that Daein was faced with a Nazi Germany-like occupation, not a colonization over 150 or so years like the Continental Colonies. When the Constitution was written, there was already a looming threat of Civil War because slavery wasn't considered in the Articles Government, and the 3/5 Compromise was still rather controversial. Daein is almost like if a country was liberated from Germany but turned the Shoah up to 11. There isn't a way to fix that kind of situation.

I don't know, it worked out quite well for RL Germany. Admittedly Denazification was carried out by occupying forces, but it's on Micaiah if she gives Daein Independance without something like Denazification taking place. If she can't solve the issue of racism herself Daein shouldn't be independent, and so we return to square one.

[eclipse]

Begnion being kicked out doesn't mean that Daein suddenly has a lot of free time. I'm sure that the new government would have to do things like take out pockets of Begnion soldiers that didn't get the message, get a new set of rules in place, possibly kick out those who refuse to accept the new government, etc. While I don't doubt that racism would eventually be addressed, it wouldn't happen immediately (I'd personally give it a couple of years).

Now it really makes me wish that we got to see just what policies Xander implemented at the end of Conquest, so we could have a better comparison!

Edited May 17, 2016 by eclipse

[blah the Prussian]

Begnion being kicked out doesn't mean that Daein suddenly has a lot of free time. I'm sure that the new government would have to do things like take out pockets of Begnion soldiers that didn't get the message, get a new set of rules in place, possibly kick out those who refuse to accept the new government, etc. While I don't doubt that racism would eventually be addressed, it wouldn't happen immediately (I'd personally give it a couple of years).Now it really makes me wish that we got to see just what policies Xander implemented at the end of Conquest, so we could have a better comparison!

Using Fates as a comparison point for anything is a really, really bad idea. In addition, nothing implied the Hoshido-Nohr rivalry to be based on race.

[Tolvir]

Are you saying that if the Founding Fathers had decided to ban slavery immediately that would have been a bad decision?

I know you are talking about Daein and Fire Emblem and all of that, but there is something I want to add to the whole Founding Fathers things.

Yes, it actually would of been a bad decision. The Founding Fathers of the US didnt ban slavery right away because it would of been the death of the country. The 3/5th compromise was the closest thing they could do, and that set the seeds in place for a hopeful ban on slavery in their eyes. Just up and banning slavery after the Revolution would of driven away the southern colonies, and would of caused a civil war. If you thought the Civil WAr was bad in the 1800s, imagine what it would of been like directly after the Revolution? It was suicide for the newly formed country to try that, and they knew it. Quite a bit of them were actually apposed to it. Thomas Jefferson was a strong opponent to slavery and multiple times tried to abolish it or limit it. He came to the ultimate decision though that it was against the ideas they were founded on for the government to just abolish slavery without a large amount of support behind it, and if they were to just up and abolish it, it could lead to the end of the fledgling country.

Sorry its off topic, but wanted to throw that out there.

[MrMcThrasher]

Both the stories of Radiant Dawn and Conquest weren't very well done, but the gameplay was awesome. Isn't that all that matters in the end?

To play defense for Corrin because I can, we have to remember (and forgive me if I repeated some points earlier):

1. He doesn't have a clue how the real world works. He's been living in a castle by himself and nobody to interact with outside the servants and family. I fully expected terrible decision making.

2. He hasn't been outside, and just learns all these things about him and just has...events happen to him. All within the span of a couple of days, I'd also not expect great decision making either.

3. On top of all that, we can mostly blame Azura for being one of the worst written characters in Fire Emblem history. She...withholds information when not necessary, does that stupid crystal thing, etc.

4. Mildly off topic: People critique Xander for following his father blindly, but if your father went from loving to evil, you'd likely not accept it either. Seeing all his family following his father, it would make sense for Corrin to do the same.

[blah the Prussian]

I know you are talking about Daein and Fire Emblem and all of that, but there is something I want to add to the whole Founding Fathers things.

Yes, it actually would of been a bad decision. The Founding Fathers of the US didnt ban slavery right away because it would of been the death of the country. The 3/5th compromise was the closest thing they could do, and that set the seeds in place for a hopeful ban on slavery in their eyes. Just up and banning slavery after the Revolution would of driven away the southern colonies, and would of caused a civil war. If you thought the Civil WAr was bad in the 1800s, imagine what it would of been like directly after the Revolution? It was suicide for the newly formed country to try that, and they knew it. Quite a bit of them were actually apposed to it. Thomas Jefferson was a strong opponent to slavery and multiple times tried to abolish it or limit it. He came to the ultimate decision though that it was against the ideas they were founded on for the government to just abolish slavery without a large amount of support behind it, and if they were to just up and abolish it, it could lead to the end of the fledgling country.

Sorry its off topic, but wanted to throw that out there.

Mah, Jefferson opposed abolition because he made his fortune off of slavery, and owned a massive slave empire. Keep in mind also that Daein isn't a new nation by any stretch of the imagination, and it isn't a federation. The arguments against abolition would be that it could lead to the Articles of Confederation falling apart. Daein has no such problems.

[NekoKnight]

Now who's ignoring the context?

Still you, I'm afraid. Micaiah's is consistently characterized as being burdened by her responsibilities and unable to follow her convictions (preserving peace and not mistreating the Laguz). It's a difficult situation where she has to choose between her morals and the duty she feels to her country. If you can't see that and would prefer to malign her character, I can't help you.

[cgRIPPER]

This conversation is going nowhere. Japan has never had anywhere remotely close to the kind racial-diversity that either Tellius or America do. If you want to blame Micaiah for the fact that IntSys expects its audience to think a world war is more important than a country's domestic affairs (regardless of whether that's actually the correct state of mind), then just don't be surprised if more open-minded people choose not to blame Micaiah just because her actions aren't drastic enough.

[blah the Prussian]

This conversation is going nowhere. Japan has never had anywhere remotely close to the kind racial-diversity that either Tellius or America do. If you want to blame Micaiah for the fact that IntSys expects its audience to think a world war is more important than a country's domestic affairs (regardless of whether that's actually the correct state of mind), then just don't be surprised if more open-minded people choose not to blame Micaiah just because her actions aren't drastic enough.

...you said, ignoring that Daein was on the objectively wrong side of that war. And that she had several months between the end of the occupation and the beginning of the war.

[BruceLee]

Still you, I'm afraid. Micaiah's is consistently characterized as being burdened by her responsibilities and unable to follow her convictions (preserving peace and not mistreating the Laguz). It's a difficult situation where she has to choose between her morals and the duty she feels to her country. If you can't see that and would prefer to malign her character, I can't help you.

The duty she feels for her country is to hunt sub-humans, side by side with her racist soldiers?

You are the one who's ignoring the context when you say the race of the enemy is irrelevant. Micaiah doesn't get a reason as for why Pelleas is ordering her to attack the laguz alliance. She does know the soldiers(and Pelleas) consistently use the word sub-human. She does know Izuka is behind the creation of Feral Ones and that Pelleas still trusts him(and misses him when he's gone). She does know her soldiers(who she says she doesn't want to let down) are excited about hunting the laguz. So tell me how the hell the race of the laguz is irrelevant here.

Edited May 17, 2016 by BruceLee

[Shotguner159]

The duty she feels for her country is to hunt sub-humans, side by side with her racist soldiers?

You are the one who's ignoring the context when you say the race of the enemy is irrelevant. Micaiah doesn't get a reason as for why Pelleas is ordering her to attack the laguz alliance. She does know the soldiers(and Pelleas) consistently use the word sub-human. She does know Izuka is behind the creation of Feral Ones and that Pelleas still trusts him(and misses him when he's gone). She does know her soldiers(who she doesn't want to let down) are excited about hunting the laguz. So tell me how the hell the race of the laguz is irrelevant here.

So, because they're racist, like every nation on Tellius bar Hatari, Daein citizens deserve to have their country collapse? Something Micaiah explicitly says will happen if she doesn't support Pelleas?

Micaiah: This fight is my king’s will. I cannot stop fighting just because I don’t agree with him. If we don’t pull together under our new king, Daein will fall apart again, just as it did before its liberation. I believe in King Pelleas. I believe that our king will lead the people of Daein to happiness.

And Micaiah does get a reason for why Pelleas orders her to attack to Laguz Alliance. He's answering a request for military aid from Begnion.

[Azure Sen]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

Not to mention the Civil War was about passing a law;

Which was predicated by several decades of increasing tension between abolitionists and slave owners, economic and social strife between the Industrial North and Rural South, the increasingly contentious issue of what constituted state's rights, and in general had a lot of contributing factors that lead towards it as an inevitability; the re-election of Lincoln was the spark that ignited the powder keg, so to speak, not the vague law you're speaking of.

(Plus, the American Civil War did nothing to diffuse racial tensions or eliminate racism and in some ways just contributed to both becoming even worse.)

And that she had several months between the end of the occupation and the beginning of the war.

Repeating the same point over and over again won't make it a valid one. Expecting a major societal change on that scale to have an actual impact in the time frame of months is both naive and unreasonable, and frankly as someone who claims to be a student of history you should know that already.

Edited May 17, 2016 by AzureSen

[blah the Prussian]

Which was predicated by several decades of increasing tension between abolitionists and slave owners, economic and social strife between the Industrial North and Rural South, the increasingly contentious issue of what constituted state's rights, and in general had a lot of contributing factors that lead towards it as an inevitability; the re-election of Lincoln was the spark that ignited the powder keg, so to speak, not the vague law you're speaking of.

(Plus, the American Civil War did nothing to diffuse racial tensions or eliminate racism and in some ways just contributed to both becoming even worse.)

Repeating the same point over and over again won't make it a valid one. Expecting a major societal change on that scale to have an actual impact in the time frame of months is both naive and unreasonable, and frankly as someone who claims to be a student of history you should know this.

Don't you dare insult my knowledge of history. Anything but that! :p

Anyway, that's not what I'm saying. I brought up the Civil War to illustrate that just because the tension doesn't go away that doesn't mean you shouldn't fight in the first place. I'm not expecting change to happen over the course of months, but I also see no reason to assume that she did anything if the game doesn't mention it.

Also, Schrodinger's Daein: so exceptionally racist it's difficult to change in a few months, but no more racist than the rest of Tellius!

[Shotguner159]

Also, Schrodinger's Daein: so exceptionally racist it's difficult to change in a few months, but no more racist than the rest of Tellius!

Crimea, a country founded on the idea that Laguz should be treated as equals, after getting aid in both winning back their country and reconstruction after the war from the Laguz nations. Still racist in Radiant Dawn. There's even an info conversation where commoners talk about whether Crimea should help Begnion or the Laguz. One of them starts out saying sub-human and switches to Laguz mid-word. 3 years prior, Crimeans had no problem with Daein invading and killing King Ramon, because he supported the Laguz-Beorc equality.

That's the more accepting nation, with more time to get adjusted to being accepting of the Laguz. Daein was founded on the idea that Laguz weren't equal, wasn't helped in winning their countries back by Laguz nations, but by 5 individual Laguz, one of which pretends to just be a regular wolf.

Like, Daein is definitely more racist than most, but given all it took for Crimea to become more accepting of Laguz, I'm not going to condemn Daein for their racism. Especially when there's the more pressing concern of rebuilding their country.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Shotguner159

[BruceLee]

So, because they're racist, like every nation on Tellius bar Hatari, Daein citizens deserve to have their country collapse? Something Micaiah explicitly says will happen if she doesn't support Pelleas?

Micaiah: This fight is my king’s will. I cannot stop fighting just because I don’t agree with him. If we don’t pull together under our new king, Daein will fall apart again, just as it did before its liberation. I believe in King Pelleas. I believe that our king will lead the people of Daein to happiness.

She believes Pelleas will lead the people of Daein to happiness, by ordering her to lead the soldiers on their sub-human hunt. If that's what it takes to bring happiness to the people of Daein then let them collapse.

And Micaiah does get a reason for why Pelleas orders her to attack to Laguz Alliance. He's answering a request for military aid from Begnion.

..........no shit. I'm saying she doesn't get an explanation as for why they are aiding Begnion against the laguz.

[Azure Sen]

Also, Schrodinger's Daein: so exceptionally racist it's difficult to change in a few months, but no more racist than the rest of Tellius!

I'd like you to give me a historical example of a nation drastically changing their bigoted views within the span of a few months after decades or centuries of bigotry, influence of a religious or political figure or no. Racism or any other form of bigotry are acceptable examples. I'm quite interested in reading your answer.

While admittedly that claim of mine was a mistake, I'm still of the opinion that for all of their racism Daein is still not as bad as Begnion, which actually had laguz slavery and genocide. The only difference is that Begnion's racism, at least at the time of the games, is heavily intermingled with their borderline religious fanaticism.

Daein was founded on the idea that Laguz weren't equal, wasn't helped in winning their countries back by Laguz nations, but by 5 individual Laguz, one of which pretends to just be a regular wolf.

Plus, Gallia, a nation of laguz, played a major part in their subjugation during the Mad King's War and were very visible members of the Crimean Liberation Army.

Edited May 17, 2016 by AzureSen

[Shotguner159]

She believes Pelleas will lead the people of Daein to happiness, by ordering her to lead the soldiers on their sub-human hunt. If that's what it takes to bring happiness to the people of Daein then let them collapse.

..........no shit. I'm saying she doesn't get an explanation as for why they are aiding Begnion against the laguz.

Nico deserves to have his country fall apart? How about that boy Fiona saves from Laverton? Daeinians who stood between the Occupation Army and the Dawn Brigade? The people of the village who gathered what little money they could in order to help the liberation efforts? All of them deserve to have their country collapse because they happen to be from the most racist nation? In a world filled with racists?

Pelleas was answering a a request of military aid. That's all the explanation she should need. Despite the occupation, Begnion is still Daein's suzerain. Crimea is the same, and Ranulf outright says that it's difficult for Crimea to refuse Begnion's demands.

Plus, Gallia, a nation of laguz, played a major part in their subjugation during the Mad King's War and were very visible members of the Crimean Liberation Army.

And the only Laguz nation they were allied with, the ravens of Kilvas, betrayed them to side with the Crimeans.

[Baldrick]

If she can't solve the issue of racism herself Daein shouldn't be independent,

I'm not expecting change to happen over the course of months

So you're saying that Micaiah should have changed the people's minds about laguz, a process you think will take a lot more than six months, before freeing Daein from Begnion's Occupation.

Does that include converting the soldiers and citizens in the work camps?

Edited May 18, 2016 by Tricky Drick

[Moblin Major General]

I'd like you to give me a historical example of a nation drastically changing their bigoted views within the span of a few months after decades or centuries of bigotry, influence of a religious or political figure or no. Racism or any other form of bigotry are acceptable examples. I'm quite interested in reading your answer.

Nazi Germany. Once they saw what exactly Hitler was up to, they turned off racism rather quickly. I would know, I was the sane man in the Wehrmacht, but as most are taught, I knew a little too much about gossip... and treason.