Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)

[Baldrick]

Tormod and Micaiah don't have another scene together after this, so I'd like to know where this supposed conversation happened.

http://serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/scripts/game-script/part-1-final-chapter-daein-arise/

Though Micaiah is visibly upset when Tormod tells her about it, so I don't think she was dismissive of them.

She was talking about how the slavery started, and nothing contradicts what she said. Yes, Beorc and Laguz were in conflict from the start, but according to Lethe there was a period were they lived together in begnion in peace, and then the slavery happened

The way she tells it, everything changed when the Human Nation attacked. She implies the laguz had no animosity towards beorc, which contradicts what Yune says.

[Azure Sen]

http://serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/scripts/game-script/part-1-final-chapter-daein-arise/

Though Micaiah is visibly upset when Tormod tells her about it, so I don't think she was dismissive of them.

End of part 1 mate, when Tormod/Nailah/Rafiel/Vika/Muarim leave the Daein army.

I'll admit that this is my mistake, but I think I know what the problem is. Break bread is just an expression for "having dinner with," not her asking Tormod to make peace with Izuka, she's basically just trying to get them to stay for at least the celebration feast. She's clearly very upset to the point of tears when Tormod tells them about the racism in the Daein army, and Tormod seems more worried about causing trouble with the regular army than he does about being around Izuka.

Edited May 17, 2016 by AzureSen

[BruceLee]

You're the one who's clearly ignoring what Nasir said in favor of pointing at what Lethe said instead, even though there's nothing to suggest that Lethe is more right than Nasir and in fact is probably the other way around just because Nasir has been around so much longer and has less bias.

In any case, why isn't this timeline of events possible: laguz and beorc lived in peace, and then the laguz began to oppress the beorc. After some period of oppression, the two races lived in peace again until the beorc then started to enslave the laguz? In that case, clearly neither is lying but Lethe doesn't have the full story either.

I'm not ignoring what Nasir said, as i've been saying this whole time, Nasir's story doesn't contradict Lethe's. And seeing as his story is so vague it could be filled in anywhere. In the end we can't know for sure how it all played out.

Anyway, my original point was that it's simplifying to say the racism is a two way street looking at present Tellius, the laguz have a more concrete reason to hate the Beorc.

I'll admit that this is my mistake, but I think I know what the problem is. Break bread is just an expression for "having dinner with," not her asking Tormod to make peace with Izuka, she's basically just trying to get them to stay for at least the celebration feast. She's clearly very upset to the point of tears when Tormod tells them about the racism in the Daein army, and Tormod seems more worried about causing trouble with the regular army than he does about being around Izuka.

Break bread can also mean to make peace though. Either way, the fact that she's asking Muarim to break bread with Izuka is just ridiculous.

Edited May 17, 2016 by BruceLee

[SellingHats]

My opinion probably doesn't matter too much, since I haven't played either RD or FEF:C (Still working on Birthright because I take my dear sweet time, but I just had to chip in), but here's what I've got here. (I should point out, I'm not saying who's better, because I wouldn't know, since I haven't played either game)

First of all, it was established on page 2 by OP that information about Corrin gotten from other sources besides the conquest story WAS valid information, so there's one piece that people are way overlooking. Siblings were NOT the only reason Corrin had to pick Nohr. Corrin is more in general very attached to Nohr. you learn that from Azura supports in Birthright. You may think that's a little bit of an obtuse source (also, my Corrin is female, if that makes any difference. it changes a lot of dialogue, i'm not sure if it changes supports), but it's less obtuse than Hidden Truths or subtle implications in Revelations, so meh.

Second, I may be kind of the outlier here, but I think Corrin's actually fairly well written. Admittedly, the whole "Coddling by all of the major characters on both sides" is annoying, but i DID say CORRIN was fairly well-written, not the other characters...or the story in general. One thing to note is that the game is not subtle about the fact that Corrin is an idiot and none of their decisions are likely to be good ones. They are sheltered, naive, overly trusting, and not particularly a hero. Yes, the sword chose them, but that doesn't mean they're a hero, that means they're the one that'll save the world. They are portrayed as a hero because the story is played through their eyes, and everyone naturally views themselves as the protagonist of their story. Corrin is delusional, and I feel that Fates actually does a pretty good job portraying that. Corrin is an idiot, was clearly intended to be an idiot, and they very obviously wanted YOU to know it. Corrin is not a stand-in for you, they are a protagonist that you design. Unusual, but it happens.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Not sure it means anything, but there it is.

[NekoKnight]

I'll admit that this is my mistake, but I think I know what the problem is. Break bread is just an expression for "having dinner with," not her asking Tormod to make peace with Izuka, she's basically just trying to get them to stay for at least the celebration feast. She's clearly very upset to the point of tears when Tormod tells them about the racism in the Daein army, and Tormod seems more worried about causing trouble with the regular army than he does about being around Izuka.

Breaking bread often means making peace but it's also meant literally here.

Break bread can also mean to make peace though. Either way, the fact that she's asking Muarim to break bread with Izuka is just ridiculous.

You're ignoring the context of her words. As AzureSen said above, she was trying to get her friends to stay and ask them if they could stomach their contempt for Izuka long enough for them to all enjoy the victory celebration. She says it because she wants their company, not because she thinks Izuka should be forgiven. Tormod isn't angry at Micaiah and they part on good terms.

I'm not sure what you expect Micaiah to do in her position. She doesn't have the authority to send Izuka away or to punish him.

[Baldrick]

Break bread can also mean to make peace though. Either way, the fact that she's asking Muarim to break bread with Izuka is just ridiculous.

But isn't it simplifying to call it ridiculous? The Branded have never persecuted the Laguz, so by your logic, insensitivity is not a two-way street.

[blah the Prussian]

Wow. I missed a lot. I guess I'm the only one who needs sleep. Anyway, yes, all the countries are racist to some degree, but Daein does take it to a whole new level; the leadership of Crimea and Begnion are against the racism as are some of the people; Daein's racism seems far more... hegemonic. It should also be noted that the average soldiers of Daein don't seem too torn up about going to war with the sub humans, blood pact or no. See also how Jill in POR seems far more indoctrinated into racism than anyone else. When Daein became independent stopping racism should have been Micaiah's number one priority. She doesn't visibly take any steps against it. Its made especially absurd when she has this massive cult of personality and doesn't do anything with it to stop racism, when its clear that at least some of the people of Daein would listen to her. As for Begnion, its implied that the common people support Sanaki over the Senate.

[Baldrick]

I think the reconstruction of Daein would be the number one priority. IIRC it's only been about six months since the war ended. Micaiah could probably oppose Pelleas on fighting the LEA, but she's probably aware of what Jarod said in 1-9. A revolution is the last thing Daein needs.

[blah the Prussian]

I think the reconstruction of Daein would be the number one priority. IIRC it's only been about six months since the war ended. Micaiah could probably oppose Pelleas on fighting the LEA, but she's probably aware of what Jarod said in 1-9. A revolution is the last thing Daein needs.

Sorry, but that logic just doesn't work. If correcting a great evil in your society would lead to civil war thats not an excuse to correct that evil. Disobeying the government is breaking the law. If the government doesn't have the resources to enforce the law, then that should be the first priority.

[Azure Sen]

Wow. I missed a lot. I guess I'm the only one who needs sleep. Anyway, yes, all the countries are racist to some degree, but Daein does take it to a whole new level; the leadership of Crimea and Begnion are against the racism as are some of the people; Daein's racism seems far more... hegemonic. It should also be noted that the average soldiers of Daein don't seem too torn up about going to war with the sub humans, blood pact or no. See also how Jill in POR seems far more indoctrinated into racism than anyone else. When Daein became independent stopping racism should have been Micaiah's number one priority. She doesn't visibly take any steps against it. Its made especially absurd when she has this massive cult of personality and doesn't do anything with it to stop racism, when its clear that at least some of the people of Daein would listen to her. As for Begnion, its implied that the common people support Sanaki over the Senate.

Expecting a leader, no matter how charismatic, to make an actual millennium's worth of racism disappear in the short span (maybe six months tops, and that's stretching it) between the liberation of Daein and the war with the Laguz Alliance is ridiculous. And of course it's easy to say that she doesn't take any visible steps towards ending racism, we hardly get to see any of Daein's reconstruction because Part 2 despite Elincia's character development was largely filler and Ike completely overtook Part 3.

[NekoKnight]

Wow. I missed a lot. I guess I'm the only one who needs sleep. Anyway, yes, all the countries are racist to some degree, but Daein does take it to a whole new level; the leadership of Crimea and Begnion are against the racism as are some of the people; Daein's racism seems far more... hegemonic. It should also be noted that the average soldiers of Daein don't seem too torn up about going to war with the sub humans, blood pact or no. See also how Jill in POR seems far more indoctrinated into racism than anyone else. When Daein became independent stopping racism should have been Micaiah's number one priority. She doesn't visibly take any steps against it. Its made especially absurd when she has this massive cult of personality and doesn't do anything with it to stop racism, when its clear that at least some of the people of Daein would listen to her. As for Begnion, its implied that the common people support Sanaki over the Senate.

Daein is more racist than the countries and that's exactly why it's going to take a long time (longer than the time between part 1 and 3) to see noticeable changes. The script even notes this:

Tormod:

“Well, there is that. But honestly… If we stick around too long, the soldiers are gonna start giving us dirty looks. It’s kind of awkward.”

Micaiah:

“What do you mean?”

Tormod:

“Most Daeins still loathe laguz. Getting rid of that hatred… Let’s just say you have your work cut out for you. Look, we don’t want to ruin everyone’s party. It’s been great, but we’ll just quietly slip away.”

Part 3 has the plot focus shift to a world war so we aren't going to be seeing a lot of domestic reforms in the meantime.

Edited May 17, 2016 by NekoKnight

[blah the Prussian]

Expecting a leader, no matter how charismatic, to make an actual millennium's worth of racism disappear in the short span (maybe six months tops, and that's stretching it) between the liberation of Daein and the war with the Laguz Alliance is ridiculous. And of course it's easy to say that she doesn't take any visible steps towards ending racism, we hardly get to see any of Daein's reconstruction because Part 2 despite Elincia's character development was largely filler and Ike completely overtook Part 3.

What invisible steps could she take that wouldn't get talked about? And it isn't just that she's charismatic, she is worshipped as a demigod. The effect would be similar to the Pope or the Emperor of Japan saying something. She would have been able to do something.

[Azure Sen]

What invisible steps could she take that wouldn't get talked about?

Why would anyone in Crimea, embroiled in political chaos that devolves into a full-on civil war, be talking about Daein's possible internal reforms?

It's impossible to say for sure what exactly Micaiah was doing to move Daein in a more progressive direction before Begnion dragging them into the war against the Laguz Alliance mucked it up, but as NekoKnight said one of Micaiah's stated goals was to work towards equality in Daein (which, as a Branded, would affect her as well), and she at several points shows herself to be vehemently anti-racism. Arguing that she was doing nothing or not doing enough because whatever changes she did try to make didn't happen immediately and weren't directly told to the viewer in a part of the story that wasn't about Daein is ridiculous.

And it isn't just that she's charismatic, she is worshipped as a demigod. The effect would be similar to the Pope or the Emperor of Japan saying something. She would have been able to do something.

Ignoring the fact that the reality of those positions of power and how much influence they actually had is much different than what you're ascribing to them, it doesn't matter. Revered as a demigod or not (and I'd argue that she wasn't anywhere near as revered as the Apostle is in Begnion), a thousand years of ingrained racism isn't going to change in that short amount of time regardless of how much effort Micaiah makes, and the fact that it didn't is not indicative of a failure to do more on Micaiah's part.

How did we get on this topic again?

Edited May 17, 2016 by AzureSen

[blah the Prussian]

Why would anyone in Crimea, embroiled in political chaos that devolves into a full-on civil war, be talking about Daein's possible internal reforms?

It's impossible to say for sure what exactly Micaiah was doing to move Daein in a more progressive direction before Begnion dragging them into the war against the Laguz Alliance mucked it up, but as NekoKnight said one of Micaiah's stated goals was to work towards equality in Daein (which, as a Branded, would affect her as well), and she at several points shows herself to be vehemently anti-racism. Arguing that she was doing nothing or not doing enough because whatever changes she did try to make didn't happen immediately and weren't directly told to the viewer in a part of the story that wasn't about Daein is ridiculous.

Ignoring the fact that the reality of those positions of power and how much influence they actually had is much different than what you're ascribing to them, it doesn't matter. Revered as a demigod or not (and I'd argue that she wasn't anywhere near as revered as the Apostle is in Begnion), a thousand years of ingrained racism isn't going to change in that short amount of time regardless of how much effort Micaiah makes, and the fact that it didn't is not indicative of a failure to do more on Micaiah's part.

How did we get on this topic again?

By that logic we can say anything happened because the game didn't explicitly say it didn't happen. And obviously I don't expect her to change that overnight, but since the game doesn't have such a presumably big reform as a plot point I see no reason to think it happened. We got on this topic because criticizing Micaiah seems quite on topic for this thread.

[Time the Crestfallen]

What invisible steps could she take that wouldn't get talked about? And it isn't just that she's charismatic, she is worshipped as a demigod. The effect would be similar to the Pope or the Emperor of Japan saying something. She would have been able to do something.

That seems like it'd end in a Civil War more than a non-racist Daein.

[BruceLee]

You're ignoring the context of her words. As AzureSen said above, she was trying to get her friends to stay and ask them if they could stomach their contempt for Izuka long enough for them to all enjoy the victory celebration. She says it because she wants their company, not because she thinks Izuka should be forgiven. Tormod isn't angry at Micaiah and they part on good terms.

I'm not sure what you expect Micaiah to do in her position. She doesn't have the authority to send Izuka away or to punish him.

I'm not ignoring the context, it's still ridiculous that she's asking that of Muarim. Try to put yourself in Muarim's position. He fought for them, then Izuka drugs him and Micaiah and Pelleas are having dinner with the guy. I would spit in her face.

Izuka can not be allowed to roam free, he just can't. Pelleas does have the authority to stop him, and seeing as Micaiah has so much faith in him to go hunt some sub-humans for him(and that's before she knew about the blood pact), then that tells me that she's not taking it that seriously.

But isn't it simplifying to call it ridiculous? The Branded have never persecuted the Laguz, so by your logic, insensitivity is not a two-way street.

Ok? What's your point?

[blah the Prussian]

That seems like it'd end in a Civil War more than a non-racist Daein.

Oh, of course it would. But its a civil war worth fighting. After a certain point you need to put your foot down.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Oh, of course it would. But its a civil war worth fighting. After a certain point you need to put your foot down.

Agreed, but is it worth fighting for while they're also at war with Crimea from a logical standpoint? If I remember correctly, Laguz racism is mentioned as being abandoned in the epilogue so it's more of a case of 'let's do this latter, when we don't have more pressing matters to deal with' than 'this isn't important'.

[Baldrick]

Ok? What's your point?

You don't see the irony in your defending Lethe's prejudice towards beorc because laguz haven't enslaved beorc recently, while condemning Micaiah for being non-maliciously insensitive to Muarim when one could make the same excuse for her?

You really think laguz are incapable of racism in spite of their treatment of the branded?

Oh, of course it would. But its a civil war worth fighting. After a certain point you need to put your foot down.

Would it still be worth it if it ripped Daein apart and didn't change people's stance on laguz? That kind of cultural change is far more likely to happen over years of peacetime rather than be enforced by war.

[blah the Prussian]

You don't see the irony in your defending Lethe's prejudice towards beorc because laguz haven't enslaved beorc recently, while condemning Micaiah for being non-maliciously insensitive to Muarim when one could make the same excuse for her?

You really think laguz are incapable of racism in spite of their treatment of the branded?

Would it still be worth it if it ripped Daein apart and didn't change people's stance on laguz? That kind of cultural change is far more likely to happen over years of peacetime rather than be enforced by war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

Agreed, but is it worth fighting for while they're also at war with Crimea from a logical standpoint? If I remember correctly, Laguz racism is mentioned as being abandoned in the epilogue so it's more of a case of 'let's do this latter, when we don't have more pressing matters to deal with' than 'this isn't important'.

They had time before then during which she should have started.

[NekoKnight]

I'm not ignoring the context, it's still ridiculous that she's asking that of Muarim. Try to put yourself in Muarim's position. He fought for them, then Izuka drugs him and Micaiah and Pelleas are having dinner with the guy. I would spit in her face.

Izuka can not be allowed to roam free, he just can't. Pelleas does have the authority to stop him, and seeing as Micaiah has so much faith in him to go hunt some sub-humans for him(and that's before she knew about the blood pact), then that tells me that she's not taking it that seriously.

You are still ignoring the context. The victory celebration was for everyone who assisted in Daein's liberation. Micaiah wanted all of her friends to be able to celebrate their accomplishment and asked if Tormod (and by extension Muarim) could put aside his dislike of Izuka long enough for them to be together for the night. This isn't about what Micaiah thinks of Izuka (she despises him as well), it's about Micaiah wanting to be close to her friends. Tormod and Muarim are leaving the country after this so Micaiah doesn't even know the next time she'll see them. If Tormod thought Micaiah was simply ignoring Izuka's crimes, he'd be rightfully angry, but he wasn't.

Micaiah isn't the leader of Daein and she is bound to serve her king, even when she doesn't agree with him. Pelleas wants to keep Izuka around and Micaiah can't tell him no. People keep talking about Micaiah like she can do whatever she likes but she is just the leader of the military and has to obey orders. The game notes her conflict of interests with Sothe confronting her on her morals and Micaiah reminding him of her duty to Pelleas and her country. An important bit of information concerning Micaiah's motives is in the 3-6 pre-battle dialogue.

Micaiah decides to honor the promise she had made and continue on as the general of Daein's armies until the country stabilizes.

Daein is still in a vulnerable state and while she disagrees with attacking the Laguz Alliance personally, she feels it is in the best interest of Daein to obey Pelleas and be the inspiring leader her people need.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

They had time before then during which she should have started.

Now imagine if someone had the bright idea of starting a civil war right after the American Revolutionary War.

Edited May 17, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Baldrick]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

Not an apt comparison for several reasons, not least that it happened decades after the War for Independence. I thought you were supposed to be a history buff, that's common knowledge.

Or are you saying that Micaiah should start the war after Daein has had 80 years to stabilise post Begnion occupation? (she could live that long).

Edited May 17, 2016 by Tricky Drick

[BruceLee]

You don't see the irony in your defending Lethe's prejudice towards beorc because laguz haven't enslaved beorc recently, while condemning Micaiah for being non-maliciously insensitive to Muarim when one could make the same excuse for her?

You really think laguz are incapable of racism in spite of their treatment of the branded?

Is Muarim chilling with a person who experiments on and tortures branded?

Micaiah wanted all of her friends to be able to celebrate their accomplishment and asked if Tormod (and by extension Muarim) could put aside his dislike of Izuka long enough for them to be together for the night.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

If Tormod thought Micaiah was simply ignoring Izuka's crimes, he'd be rightfully angry, but he wasn't.

Wasn't she? Tell me what she did about his crimes, besides express disgust.

Pelleas wants to keep Izuka around

And Micaiah is Pelleas's fangirl.

Daein is still in a vulnerable state and while she disagrees with attacking the Laguz Alliance personally, she feels it is in the best interest of Daein to obey Pelleas and be the inspiring leader her people need.

''I disagree with attacking black people, but i feel it's in the best interest of my racist buddies here so ima be the inspiring leader they need. Sorry black people.''

Edited May 17, 2016 by BruceLee

[Baldrick]

Wasn't she? Tell me what she did about his crimes, besides express disgust.

What did Muarim do to stop laguz discriminating against Micaiah, besides warning her? Edited May 17, 2016 by Tricky Drick

[BruceLee]

Your arguments are weak.