Brexit

[tuvarkz]

Oh bloody hell, someone put this on Alternate History.com too, and it was just as stupid. Right then. The article doesn't actually cite shit in terms of meaningful evidence. It claims to magically know that this is what France and Germany seek. Apparently, to summarize for those who don't want to get cancer by reading the Express, this plan was leaked to a Polish news agency. Okay, Tuvarkz, give me that original source. Where does this leak come from? Ironically, despite what you said, this is still very much just a conspiracy theory.

Your source, which I can't find any other real source for aside from conspiracy websites such as InfoWars is a UKIP-supporting paper that posted this just a few days ago:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/682849/Euro-migrant-crisis-an-inside-job-planned-to-bring-about-EU-super-state-says-David-Icke

C'mon.

The article was leaked by a polish news channel here: http://www.tvp.info/25939587/europejskie-superpanstwo-zobacz-oryginalny-dokument

The same document, without the TVP.info splattered all over it: http://static.presspublica.pl/red/rp/pdf/DokumentUE.pdf

Also, Tryhard, that very same article you linked specifically mentions that it's an extreme conspiracy theory multiple times and is tagged as such, effectively not giving it any actual truth value.

Edited June 27, 2016 by tuvarkz

[Tryhard]

Also, Tryhard, that very same article you linked specifically mentions that it's an extreme conspiracy theory multiple times and is tagged as such, effectively not giving it any actual truth value.

Then isn't it quite amazing that they treat the exact same "news" in the next few days completely different? And it's currently (I mean, surely would be at least worth discussion) not shown on any sites except the Express and actual conspiracy sites?

The fact you're raising your hand up at the first thing you can latch onto to have any semblance of a point to support your views when they've just been dismantled in the last few pages is just... sad, that once again that this superstate, if true, could be easily vetoed by the UK or any other country, if they chose to remain in the EU.

why does anyone still give tuvarkz the time of day

Yeah, I'm done now. Edited June 28, 2016 by Tryhard

[Phoenix Wright]

on the cultural differences, need i remind everyone that star trek did it?

but yeah, i think practically speaking, the best we can hope for in terms of global unity is to be so economically intertwined with each other that war results only in loss-loss. which is where we're headed.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

might be abit off topic, but i guaranteed you that if WW3 does happen in my lifetime, it'll be because of something in europe just like the previous two.

Europe really needs to get its shit together.

Edited June 28, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[blah the Prussian]

The article was leaked by a polish news channel here: http://www.tvp.info/25939587/europejskie-superpanstwo-zobacz-oryginalny-dokument

The same document, without the TVP.info splattered all over it: http://static.presspublica.pl/red/rp/pdf/DokumentUE.pdf

Also, Tryhard, that very same article you linked specifically mentions that it's an extreme conspiracy theory multiple times and is tagged as such, effectively not giving it any actual truth value.

So uh, where here does it say that a European superstate is being created? All it talks about it for all countries to take an equal amount of migrants, which Merkel has been pushing for for some time now. More fearmongering.

[Excellen Browning]

might be abit off topic, but i guaranteed you that if WW3 does happen in my lifetime, it'll be because of something in europe just like the previous two.

Europe really needs to get its shit together.

That's funny because I recall the previous two wars featuring more than one continent were both started by the us of a. Edited June 28, 2016 by Excellen Browning

[blah the Prussian]

That's funny because I recall the previous two wars featuring more than one continent were both started by the us of a.

Wait, which ones? The last war with multiple theaters at the same time was WWII, and its EXTREMELY hard to argue the US started that one.

[Moblin Major General]

That's funny because I recall the previous two wars featuring more than one continent were both started by the us of a.

We had nothing to do with the death of Franz Ferdinand, and although we cut Japan off from our oil, the US didn't invade Poland. Don't blame my country for starting your wars.

[Raguna]

Maybe I could be misreading what Excellen said but I think when her words said more than one continent, it could easily apply to wars like Vietnam and Iraq. Not necessarily a multiple front war per se but those two fit pretty well into the category to me anyways.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Raguna

[Time the Crestfallen]

Wait, which ones? The last war with multiple theaters at the same time was WWII, and its EXTREMELY hard to argue the US started that one.

I think she might be referring to Vietnam and Iraq, although I don't know about the Vietnam War to say that USA fired the first shot.

[Water Mage]

That's funny because I recall the previous two wars featuring more than one continent were both started by the us of a.

To be fair, I think he only meant the two World Wars, in which Europe was the center of both.

[Baldrick]

I think she might be referring to Vietnam and Iraq, although I don't know about the Vietnam War to say that USA fired the first shot.

Vietnam was basically a front of the Cold War, since neither side was MAD enough make that conflict official.

Given the position of the US in global politics, I'd be surprised if they aren't involved in a hypothetical WW3 outbreak.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

To be fair, I think he only meant the two World Wars, in which Europe was the center of both.

that is exactly what i meant, i am unsure how it could be mistaken for anything else.

[blah the Prussian]

I think she might be referring to Vietnam and Iraq, although I don't know about the Vietnam War to say that USA fired the first shot.

USA debatably did in Vietnam. Also the US was involved in the Persian Gulf War between Vietnam and Iraq, and that one was blatantly on Saddam. And no, niether Vietnam or Iraq were multi continent.

[CyborgZeta]

IIRC, Vietnam was technically started by the French. When they withdrew, Vietnam was partitioned, and that was when "our" Vietnam War started.

[blah the Prussian]

IMO it was started by the Viet Minh when the deposed the legitimate Emperor Bao Dai, and in the South when Diem again deposed the legitimate Emperor Bao Dai. But holy shit are we getting off topic, so lets stop here.

[Taka-kun]

Well, I can safely say that Brexit is the most intriguing European political drama I have experienced in my lifetime. I have never considered the ramifications of a fragmented EU outside of Tom Clancy's work (or related) since I was essentially born in the EU and enjoyed the benefits from it. I do wonder where this could lead to, with the debate of "nation-state vs international community" popping up again.

[Etrurian emperor]

might be abit off topic, but i guaranteed you that if WW3 does happen in my lifetime, it'll be because of something in europe just like the previous two.

Europe really needs to get its shit together.

Its probably going to be Asia were nationalism is said to play quite a big and ever increasing role.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if Russia ends up starting one if they keep on their current path.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Etrurian emperor

[Life]

I have about a million snarky comments regarding the vote but there was one thing that Nigel Farage said that bothered me far too much.

He claimed that the UK achieved "independence without a single shot fired".

Two issues:

1) He clearly showed that he didn't understand the purpose of the EU.

2) The family of Jo Cox would very much like to disagree with that statement since she was gunned down over this exact vote less than a week before.

[Esau of Isaac]

That's funny because I recall the previous two wars featuring more than one continent were both started by the us of a.

Comparing those to world war scenarios is silly. They're not a total war situation, and their combined deaths on all sides is eclipsed by singular battles in WWI and II.

Its probably going to be Asia were nationalism is said to play quite a big and ever increasing role.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if Russia ends up starting one if they keep on their current path.

I do have to concur with Kai, I feel like the pendulum is beginning to swing in the opposite direction in Europe. A nationalized European populace would at the least lead to the possibility of a WWI-style saber-rattling gone wrong.

Though, that said, I will admit that I like the idea of a nationalist people. It is when it develops into a sort of jingoism that it becomes worrisome.

[Tryhard]

I have about a million snarky comments regarding the vote but there was one thing that Nigel Farage said that bothered me far too much.

He claimed that the UK achieved "independence without a single shot fired".

Two issues:

1) He clearly showed that he didn't understand the purpose of the EU.

2) The family of Jo Cox would very much like to disagree with that statement since she was gunned down over this exact vote less than a week before.

Farage is pretty much a goblin in human skin. His claims about 'most MEPs not doing a proper job in their lives' in his exit speech (particularly worth noting is how he immediately contradicts himself after saying that they should be 'grown-up' among other things and the guy facepalming in the back around 5:55) and he previously laughed about basically occupying his seat in the EU while almost never turning up. His lies and pettiness should be not taken seriously by anyone, not even those who want to leave the EU, and I dread to think that there are some that actually follow such a smug prick.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Tryhard

[Duff Ostrich]

1) He clearly showed that he didn't understand the purpose of the EU.

2) The family of Jo Cox would very much like to disagree with that statement since she was gunned down over this exact vote less than a week before.

What an amazingly ridiculous pair of statements. The man is on the European parliament, so I'd like to think he knows a thing or two about what they do. And clearly Farage, UKIP and the Leave campaign are not responsible for the actions of a murderer with severe psychological problems. *They* won the fight without a single shot, and indeed the death of Mrs. Cox probably persuaded more people to vote Remain than otherwise.

Farage is pretty much a goblin in human skin. His claims about 'most MEPs not doing a proper job in their lives' in his exit speech (particularly worth noting is how he immediately contradicts himself after saying that they should be 'grown-up' among other things and the guy facepalming in the back around 5:55) and he previously laughed about basically occupying his seat in the EU while almost never turning up. His lies and pettiness should be not taken seriously by anyone, not even those who want to leave the EU, and I dread to think that there are some that actually follow such a smug prick.

Absolutely incredible speech. Smug is precisely what these bureaucrats deserve for all that they've done and are doing. That the establishment elites, the media and the liberal left (an increasingly minor set of distinctions) have reacted with such vitriol is the best indication I've seen that this needed to happen.

[Excellen Browning]

What an amazingly ridiculous pair of statements. The man is on the European parliament, so I'd like to think he knows a thing or two about what they do.

... You do realize Trump is a presidential candidate, do you?

Knowing what the hell you're talking about is clearly not needed to get elected.

[Tryhard]

What an amazingly ridiculous pair of statements. The man is on the European parliament, so I'd like to think he knows a thing or two about what they do.

1. You... do know how he is on the European parliament, right? It's not because he wants to be, or that he's qualified at all, it's because he seeks to undermine it and because UKIP are allowed a representation there despite being a minority party in the UK because a minority of eurosceptics specifically wanted them to cause distress. If you're saying he's the most knowledgeable about how to paint the EU as one of the scapegoats, you're absolutely correct. He personally admitted that he will use any veto possible against EU legislation, regardless of whether he believes it is good or bad, and would only try to become a member specifically to destroy as much of its workings on purpose.

2. He is one of the worst attending MEPs for obvious reason - I believe he was around 745th of 749. From anyone in the European parliament, he is the least likely to know about what they do, since he's never actually there. On/off for seventeen years.

Absolutely incredible speech. Smug is precisely what these bureaucrats deserve for all that they've done and are doing. That the establishment elites, the media and the liberal left (an increasingly minor set of distinctions) have reacted with such vitriol is the best indication I've seen that this needed to happen.

1. Yes, being a prick to those that you are going to be re-negotiating trade deals with is such a wonderful idea.

2. Farage has no claim to most MEPs having not done a day's work in their life. The guy who was facepalming was a cardiac surgeon, for example. Farage's previous work is being a commodity broker, hardly the most prestigious of claims, but despite that he's pocketed enough money from his salary in the EU in his time as a MEP.

There's a reason he's pretty much the British version of Donald Trump (though of course, nowhere near as popular for actual election as of right now), and I'm confused about why you would even support him.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/499000/Nigel-Farage-Donald-Trump-great-US-president-good-news-Britain

Edit: Probably a better source here:

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/right-wing-populism-two-rooted-more-base-nationalism

That, and I'm starting to think increasingly that you don't know how the EU works as previous responses have shown.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Tryhard

[Duff Ostrich]

... You do realize Trump is a presidential candidate, do you?

Knowing what the hell you're talking about is clearly not needed to get elected.

Trump is such an imbecile and yet now he's poised to be the Republican nominee. He's smarter than anyone has given him credit for, and the arrogance of his opponents is one of factors behind his success. Either Trump or his advisors, and probably both, have an intimate understanding with the American political process and have probably been maneuvering towards this contest since 2012 or 2013. You can bet the Democrats are taking him very seriously now, especially considering the titanic amount of criminality and negligence associated with their own presumptive nominee.

1. You... do know how he is on the European parliament, right? It's not because he wants to be, or that he's qualified at all, it's because he seeks to undermine it and because UKIP are allowed a representation there despite being a minority party in the UK because a minority of eurosceptics specifically wanted them to cause distress. If you're saying he's the most knowledgeable about how to paint the EU as one of the scapegoats, you're absolutely correct. He personally admitted that he will use any veto possible against EU legislation, regardless of whether he believes it is good or bad, and would only try to become a member specifically to destroy as much of its workings on purpose.

2. He is one of the worst attending MEPs for obvious reason - I believe he was around 745th of 749. From anyone in the European parliament, he is the least likely to know about what they do, since he's never actually there. On/off for seventeen years.

1. Yes, being a prick to those that you are going to be re-negotiating trade deals with is such a wonderful idea.

2. Farage has no claim to most MEPs having not done a day's work in their life. The guy who was facepalming was a cardiac surgeon, for example. Farage's previous work is being a commodity broker, hardly the most prestigious of claims, but despite that he's pocketed enough money from his salary in the EU in his time as a MEP.

There's a reason he's pretty much the British version of Donald Trump, and I'm confused about why you would even support him.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/499000/Nigel-Farage-Donald-Trump-great-US-president-good-news-Britain

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/nigel-farage-backs-donald-trump-never-ever-vote-hillary-clinton-brexit-a7108081.html

That, and I'm starting to think increasingly that you don't know how the EU works as previous responses have shown.

You've failed to convince me how a EU parliamentarian that has spent the latter part of his professional career attempting to get his nation to leave that union doesn't understand what it does. It's a very silly thing to say.

What is it with the Remain folks constantly asserting that to not support the EU is to not understand it? I have a working understanding of what the EU does and have since long before Mr. Cameron promised to have a referendum on it. More importantly however is that it is not a difficult thing to understand. The American people would never accept an equivalent of the EU, and the people of the United Kingdom were right to want out even if by a small majority.