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A) you don't understand what i'm saying. turtle strategies only really "turtle" for small bits of a few specific maps. That playstyle lets yout ake it easy in one turn where you setup auras/arallies and a tank (...or just use Benny and hope enemies actually aren't scared of closing in). The next turn forces your hand. You need to get in there and kill everyone that was baited unless you want your tank to fall apart to magic or debuffs + poison strike/grisly wound. The only thing turlting would do in a tier list is giving a small boost to characters with good tankiness and a small boost to characters with great offense but little durability like Charlotte and Arthur.

3a) A bunch of lance users in CQ is not somethign you see that often though, especially after Charlie joins. Worse: those lance users are generally in packs where one of the dastards has Bolt Naginata.

Tomahawk is pretty expensive, inaccurate and makes Charlotte have no safety window if she misses her attack (remember, she is no effie, who can try that thing and shrug if she misses). If you are using THAt on EP it means you either have charlotte busy at the very edge of an enemy (and if you are using charlotte for that it usually means you would be better off using Niles or Bowzu cuz you are probably fighting ninjas), or trying to use her as bait from over the wall which is actually fine as long as its not one of those death traps (where killing enemies means more combat which eventually kills you). Hand Axe forges would be a better argument tho.

B) And being forced to depend on other units throughout the game to maybe have a chance at hitting stuff with the most inaccurate weapon class in the game isn't a con?

C) Bait faceless with Corrin+Silas, attack with Mozu + silas. That's not hard. inefficient most likely but not hard at all. And... if we are considering use of resources as part of efficiency, this is practically a given for Paralogue 1 since you barely get eXP out of it if you are not a mozu, so there isn't even a point to ORKO'ing things.

Charlotte needs exactly the same babying because you need to constantly sic a healer on her if you are giving her EP utility, unless you married her to Samurai corrin and got her Vantage. Paralogue 1 does not scale. Charlotte has to kill thing in chapters you can't afford to mess around because you need to baby her., and is definitely harder to baby.

mozu literally needs half of an easy mpa that is easily manipulated to bring her to a good level (5 or 6). Enemies in chapter 8 have crap defense and crap speed which gives her more levels. Half of chapter 9 will either come at you in the beginning and be at low HP or be hit by DV and... be at 1 HP. Chapter 10, if anything, has peggies that are easy pickings.

Chapter 13 on the other hand starts with magic in one side, takumi in the other, and flying enemy tanks carrying more tanks coming at you from the center. The latter forces you to take charlotte out of the way because enemies can pursue her and will tank her out. The central part of the map with reina requires reliability because missing one attack there means missing a kill, which means the enemy can go behind your units and pick at Azura/Elise. Charlotte is unreliable at that point even with WTA.

It is an horrible map for charlotte even if she didn't need any babying. This means that bringing her up to a good level from that map is ACTUALLY hard even if the Ai cooperates with you (Reina+Takumi's range has a few blind spots camilla can hit wyverns from, killing them and forcing the knight they carried to be dropped of in the other side of the river).

A) ofc I know that? but if you're doing it multiple times a chapter multiple chapters because of a unit(s), then back to what I said before. and as mentioned by others, just how much extra utility does a trained up Mozu provide over other units? is that small extra utility (which in itself is debatable, given locked 2-range), it's almost definitely offset by the extra effort

3A) there's plenty of spearfighters. better yet, as mentioned, Charlotte is even better off versus Sword/Tome users with Dual Axe. and no, Bolt Naginata is really rare.

B) (this labeling...) bows are nearly just as bad. factoring Weapon ranks, there's only 5 Hit difference. and again, abusing WTA, especially Dual Axe, it's not mandatory.

C) Dual Axe Charlotte can still see a lot more EP usage safely. and also has access to Pike-ruin (if that's available in Conquest), too for even stronger lance killing. Archer Mozu is easily seeing less combat

Isn't 1 Luk = 1 CEV? 1 Icon + Arthurs's base 1 luk = 5 Luk = 5 CEV, which offsets Misfortune's -5. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

yea, Fates nerfed Luc so 1 CEv = 2 Luc

Edited by GoXDS

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I think people are forgetting that pairup increases your dodge stat, which what your combat units are going to be in like 90% of the time.

I don't know about that - I generally found pair up less useful than attack stance, personally.

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I don't know about that - I generally found pair up less useful than attack stance, personally.

Of course you'd think that. Just an example of why people take your opinions about as seriously as Sarah Palin.

For actual tier related business, Effie needs to drop massively, Leo should rise to just around Xander's level, and Beruka should rise a tier too, possibly above Silas.

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Of course you'd think that. Just an example of why people take your opinions about as seriously as Sarah Palin.

For actual tier related business, Effie needs to drop massively, Leo should rise to just around Xander's level, and Beruka should rise a tier too, possibly above Silas.

Like I'd take your opinions any more seriously.

But tbf, I generally found attack stance more useful to clear out enemies that might have lived otherwise.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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I think Arthur's low Lck is less of an issue in terms of getting critted and more an issue in terms of hitting things, particularly since he uses the most inaccurate weapon type. His high Skl growth deals with this issue later, but it's hard to feed Arthur Exp to make him a long term unit when he can't reliably get kills. He's probably better as a Pair Up bot most of the time anyway, as a main unit he's kinda just...unmounted inaccurate Silas which isn't very impressive overall.

Charlotte/Keaton- Charlotte is also footlocked like Keaton and her 1-2 range is underwhelming since she can't double or OHKO(without massive leveling) with it. She has some training issues in her join chapter, so I'll give her one level before Keaton joins.

Level 11 Charlotte

34(+5 from skill) HP 16 Str 10.5 Skl 14 Spd 9 lck 8 Def 2 Res

Base Keaton

35 HP 19 Str 10 Skl 13 Spd 9 Lck 16 Def 7 Res

Keaton gains CEV +10,+5 Skl, +3 Spd, -2 Def from the Beaststone, CEV+10, -2 Skill, -1 Speed, +4 Def, and +5 Res from the Beastrune.

If both characters want to to double, they'll likely want to use an Iron Axe/Beaststone because they both have middling speed. Charlotte has +2 Mt on her weapon compared to Keaton (and it can be forged, if we're willing to spare the resources), but Keaton's Stone has +20 Hit. Keaton still has the Atk advantage due to higher Str, but his accuracy advantage is pretty huge- and relevant given their Skl stats. Charlotte can Gamble and possibly use things like the Killer Axe to fish for crits, but given her already shaky hit rates I think removing Gamble is the better option. Charlotte can use the Hammer on Knights/General, but competes for this resource with units like Camilla and Beruka, Keaton's 2x damage to beasts doesn't cost us resources elsewhere.

Their growths are pretty similar. In their base classes, Charlotte has +5 % HP, +25% Skl, +15% Spd +15% Lck. Keaton has +5% Str, +35% Def, +20% Res. Keaton also gets +10 Hit, +5 Crit, +10 CEV from promotion, Charlotte gets +20 Crit, -5 CEV from promotion. Fighter-->Berserker gives Charlotte better offensive gains than Keaton, he gets better defensive gains.

So I guess Keaton and Charlotte are similar in some offensive parameters, but he's notably more durable physically and more accurate. Except for Charlotte's crit potential, I'm not sure she has much going for her here as a lead unit.

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attack stance isn't all that useful past chapter 11/12ish since your units (other than Corrin/Jakob/Camilla) become able to ORKO with pairups fairly quickly and then Leo and Xander show up and are able to do it immediatly so it's just better to have 4/5 juggernauts than a bunch of average units that may or may not be able to kill things. Only units that really use attack stance lategame (in my experience) are staffbots like Elise and Izana who aren't paired up when they don't have to heal and are able to attack instead, since they usually hit hard and don't double (elise sometimes does but isn't guarunteed)

as for other thoughts I have now that I have some time to think...

Niles needs to drop if we're not capturing. Him and Selena are very similar statiscially, the only things he has on her are a few chapters (and he's not great in chapter 9) and an extra point of movement, locktouch isn't overwhelmingly useful, and Selena also has the option of being an (anemic) falcoknight but providing mounted rescue and rally speed all the same. Niles is still pretty good though, but I really don't think he's better than Leo (or Beruka) without capture.

Beruka's also really low here. Her start isn't fantastic, but she still has fantastic durabililty, decent offence, and is a wyvern. With (a highly contested) Arthur pairup, she's actually pretty great offensively, but can still settle for a lesser contested speed pairup like Kaze/Laslow/Selena and still function perfectly fine. Statwise she's similar to Silas, with a bit less power (axes are stronger than Silas's weapons, but Silas gets elbow room) with better durability and flight, and has a lot more endgame potential since her class is better and Trample is a super strong level 15 skill with shores up her attack issue, along with being very good in several midgame maps like the ninja cave, the fox map (she's probably your best unit here, her skill is absurdly high), and having flight in the faceless mountain is very good. She should be just above Silas imo, Silas has availability on her, and is definately pretty solid in the first few maps, but his lead doesn't last for long and turns into a deficit ~Chapter 14 or so for the rest of the game. I don't think she's a top tier unit though, so it probably means dropping Silas out of top tier. The only thing that can potentially save Silas is if we assume he gets a wyvern second seal from Camilla or Corrin (he's a great partner for both Characters) in which case he's better than Beruka in that one specific scenerio. Neither Beruka or Silas belong in top though, they're strong units, with some (fixable) flaws.

Effie and Kaze both need to drop down a tier, imo. Effie is pretty strong in midgame maps like 10/11/12/13 (providing she promotes after 10/11) but past Chapter 17 her usefulness runs her course if you early promote her, and she's notabely weaker if you wait till 14 or something to promote her since 12/13 are among her best maps. If you pair her with Arthur though she can turn into a Berserker pairup bot for someone, although Great Knight bonuses are generally better (imo). If she gets Cavalier her longterm potential also get a lot better since Elbow Room and Defender actually help her a lot with OHKO'ing enemies. I'm confused to why Kaze is this high in the first place, maybe it's just because of the gap in performance in top tier units to the rest of the list? His offence is pretty great but he can't handwaive his shaky durability like he can in Birthright here, so his 1-2 range just isn't as valuable when he can't reliably enemy phase against physical units (he's obviously fine against mages). His pairup stats are great too, but lets be real most units pairup stats are pretty good at worst and shouldn't be overvalued. He basically has a monopoly on shurikens/daggers though, which is nice. I get the feel that he's in this tier just to fill it out, you don't have to have equal number of units in one tier. But I can't see how Effie or Kaze are at all a comparable to Leo.

Leo either needs to be top of High tier or bumped up to top. His 1-2 range offence is rivaled only by Xander and he comes with above average physical and magical durability, and great growths. Only thing holding him back is a few shaky midgame maps (he's bad in Ninja cave and Fox map). At least above units like Silas/Beruka/Niles/etc. Willing to argue this.

Laslow and Charlotte need to plummet, they're among the worst 5ish units without a doubt. Both have bad combat potential (Charlotte's durability is too bad when she does have decent offence, and Laslow is just bad), and they're late joining units with no utility other than pairup (unless you include Laslow's mini rally, which admittably is useful for units like Xander/Beruka/Silas/Leo that sometimes come close to doubling some enemy types.

Odin isn't the worst character in the game either imo, it's either Mozu or Jakob 2. Mozu can't even function as a pairupbot (without a heart seal) and Jakob 2 is just a late joining staffbot... with bad magic? (and mediocre other stats). Mozu the combat unit is mediocre for several chapters and is locked to two range when her decent offence does exist.

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^This is just me, but outside of Camilla, the servants, and Gunter, I really don't think level 15 skills are reasonable to use in an argument when they're likely coming too late to get any real mileage out of.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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I'd like to put in a good word for Mozu after managing to get my strategy with her to work twice:

Really, while it's a bit annoying, it's completely doable to get Mozu up to level 8-10ish by the end of her paralogue by reclassing her to archer and baiting the faceless over to the bridge to be picked off so she gets tons of chip damage experience. Yes, it's tedious, but it's easy, and after that paralogue she's completely caught up with the rest of your team and will be useful for the rest of the game. And then furthermore she's an early wife who provides great growths to any physical child thanks to aptitude, and her aptitude also needless to say helps her greatly as well.

So while she's not ideal, if this isn't an LTC tier list I don't think she deserves to be at second-worst place on the tier list. She should certainly at least be above the units who take just as much or more babying and are less impressive as a result.

Edited by Alastor15243

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it's very feasible to get level 15 skills ~chapter 23/24 on most units. I have a Beruka sitting at level 13 and a half at the start of Chapter 22 in a current playthrough. The last few maps are among the toughest in the game as well. They usually aren't much of a mention, but Trample is a ridiculous skill and is worth mention.

What units require more babying than Mozu? The only one I can think of is perhaps Charlotte. Mozu's bottom because we're not allowing sitting around in her paralogue for 50 turns for the sake of one unit (i'm pretty sure we're not anyway). She's not Donnel levels of bad and is useable, but she takes resources from other more deserving units and can't really function without it.

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What units require more babying than Mozu? The only one I can think of is perhaps Charlotte. Mozu's bottom because we're not allowing sitting around in her paralogue for 50 turns for the sake of one unit (i'm pretty sure we're not anyway). She's not Donnel levels of bad and is useable, but she takes resources from other more deserving units and can't really function without it.

She's at least better than Jakob 2, certainly. At least with her you'll get results.

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attack stance isn't all that useful past chapter 11/12ish since your units (other than Corrin/Jakob/Camilla) become able to ORKO with pairups fairly quickly and then Leo and Xander show up and are able to do it immediatly so it's just better to have 4/5 juggernauts than a bunch of average units that may or may not be able to kill things. Only units that really use attack stance lategame (in my experience) are staffbots like Elise and Izana who aren't paired up when they don't have to heal and are able to attack instead, since they usually hit hard and don't double (elise sometimes does but isn't guarunteed)

You might be right, but ehh, I like splatting ninjas and mages while not having to worry about eating counters from them. The hit boost from Attack Stance also has its uses *cough KOTARO cough Foxes hack*.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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You might be right, but ehh, I like splatting ninjas and mages while not having to worry about eating counters from them. The hit boost from Attack Stance also has its uses *cough KOTARO cough Foxes hack*.

My thoughts exactly, I make extensive use of dual strikes in chapters 10 and 17 to deal with those ninjas, the OCD in me just hates having debuffed units.

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[snip]

@Niles I think maybe the Niles argument is because he can have Kunaibreaker for C25 and Pass for Endgame- but Kunaibreaker isn't necessary if Corrin can take on Ryoma (the Silence staff is nice I guess). Selena can also get Kunaibreaker. There are also other ways to do Endgame without Pass. Otherwise, yeah he's ultimately a player phase locked unit who won't even be ORKOing all the time.

@Beruka/Silas Yeah. Beruka does seem better overall, though I admit I've never found her great in any of my runs. The speed difference between them is lower than I expected- a level 10 Silas only has one base speed and 10% growth over base Beruka.

@Effie/Kaze/Leo I agree with all of this really, Kaze>Leo just seems odd to me when Leo has more move, durability, and offense. Kaze does have a few maps where he's better, but it's kinda like putting Astohl over Percival or something.

@Laslow/Charlotte

Laslow...the mini rally is something I guess. There are probably various ways to get more use out of Laslow (Ninja gets him more speed and 1-2 range, Marriage Seal with Peri to get Cavalier), but in both those cases we probably would have saved time and resources just using Kaze/Peri in the first place.

Charlotte is pretty hopeless as a lead unit, though no one else gives Xander just the right combination of Str to OHKO enemies and speed to double more stuff like she does. I'll admit that I get more average use out of Charlotte on a Conquest run than out of a secondary staffbot like Flora.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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Laslow...the mini rally is something I guess. There are probably various ways to get more use out of Laslow (Ninja gets him more speed and 1-2 range, Marriage Seal with Peri to get Cavalier), but in both those cases we probably would have saved time and resources just using Kaze/Peri in the first place.

The thing is though, Laslow can also get Rally Strength through Keaton and Rally Speed through Azura or Selena, and Rally Skill naturally in bow knight, and then he can finish off in mechanist for Replicate. +1 to strength and speed isn't great, but his reclassing options on top of that make him an amazing rally bot.

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The thing is though, Laslow can also get Rally Strength through Keaton and Rally Speed through Azura or Selena, and Rally Skill naturally in bow knight, and then he can finish off in mechanist for Replicate. +1 to strength and speed isn't great, but his reclassing options on top of that make him an amazing rally bot.

For an efficient runthrough, he can probably only get one additional Rally outside his class options- and all he gets from his class is Rally Skill which is less useful than Strength/Speed. Doesn't really seem worth a slot to me outside of Endgame.

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The thing is though, Laslow can also get Rally Strength through Keaton and Rally Speed through Azura or Selena, and Rally Skill naturally in bow knight, and then he can finish off in mechanist for Replicate. +1 to strength and speed isn't great, but his reclassing options on top of that make him an amazing rally bot.

Aside from what Cynthia said, he also has to wade through E rank hell for those other rallies, to say nothing of the part where Azura's hard to pair off.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Aside from what Cynthia said, he also has to wade through E rank hell for those other rallies, to say nothing of the part where Azura's hard to pair off.

That's not really a problem. He's plenty strong, especially when paired up with Keaton, so getting stuck with e-ranks isn't a dealbreaker. It's only for 6ish levels since if you train up his bow rank while he's a bow knight then he can use bows as a mechanist when he gets there. And if your skill builds involve enough class-hopping through lance or axe classes you can always forge a bronze weapon for cheap if it's really a problem.

And Azura isn't difficult to pair up at all. Just pair Laslow up with somebody for strength and maybe speed, and then have Azura sing for him to help him get 2 kills a turn, and more if it's feasible at the moment for him to enemy phase.

And I didn't slow down on any map or grind abuse to get him to level 15 mechanist by chapter 23, I just made judicious use of child paralogues. And it's not like reclassing is a major financial hassle. Conquest gives you plenty of cash, oftentimes I find myself comfortably able to purchase a few eternal seals in the last few chapters.

And the result is amazing, especially with a physical-heavy team. Basically everyone on your team will have +5 strength and +5 speed at all times, and you don't even have to avoid splitting up since he has replicate. The speed particularly is a huge use to ensuring Xander stays useful no matter what his speed growth luck happens to be.

Edited by Alastor15243

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U did laslow mechanist, on Lunatic, with ease?

Not on Lunatic, not yet, though I do have a Lunatic file in progress where I have that planned, but I did do it on Hard without a single reset and without a single casualty.

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That's not really a problem. He's plenty strong, especially when paired up with Keaton, so getting stuck with e-ranks isn't a dealbreaker. It's only for 6ish levels since if you train up his bow rank while he's a bow knight then he can use bows as a mechanist when he gets there. And if your skill builds involve enough class-hopping through lance or axe classes you can always forge a bronze weapon for cheap if it's really a problem.

And Azura isn't difficult to pair up at all. Just pair Laslow up with somebody for strength and maybe speed, and then have Azura sing for him to help him get 2 kills a turn, and more if it's feasible at the moment for him to enemy phase.

And I didn't slow down on any map or grind abuse to get him to level 15 mechanist by chapter 23, I just made judicious use of child paralogues. And it's not like reclassing is a major financial hassle. Conquest gives you plenty of cash, oftentimes I find myself comfortably able to purchase a few eternal seals in the last few chapters.

And the result is amazing, especially with a physical-heavy team. Basically everyone on your team will have +5 strength and +5 speed at all times, and you don't even have to avoid splitting up since he has replicate. The speed particularly is a huge use to ensuring Xander stays useful no matter what his speed growth luck happens to be.

You do realize that unless you had them fight together frequently, Laslow and Asura's supports would build at a rate I could only describe as "glacial"?

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You do realize that unless you had them fight together frequently, Laslow and Asura's supports would build at a rate I could only describe as "glacial"?

They don't need to be married until Laslow hits level 20/5 though, or level 20/2 if you want to skip Rally Skill and go straight to speed and strength. It's not like their children are going to be of much use as anything other than paralogue training sessions due to Azura's combat-inappropriate growths (only Shigure will ever be much good, the other child is screwed), so what's the rush? I got them comfortably married by chapter 18, and then after cracking into one or two paralogues out of paranoia of not knowing what chapter 19 would be like (it was my first time and I was going in blind) he had skill, speed and strength for chapter 19, he was a mechanist with Skill Speed and Strength by the end of chapter 21 and had replicate by the end of chapter 23. And this was while also comfortably training and skill-building the rest of my army.

Edited by Alastor15243

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They don't need to be married until Laslow hits level 20/5 though, or level 20/2 if you want to skip Rally Skill and go straight to speed and strength. It's not like their children are going to be of much use as anything other than paralogue training sessions due to Azura's combat-inappropriate growths (only Shigure will ever be much good, the other child is screwed), so what's the rush? I got them comfortably married by chapter 18, and then after cracking into one or two paralogues out of paranoia of not knowing what chapter 19 would be like (it was my first time and I was going in blind) he had skill, speed and strength for chapter 19, he was a mechanist with Skill Speed and Strength by the end of chapter 21 and had replicate by the end of chapter 23. And this was while also comfortably training and skill-building the rest of my army.

But with how hard a time Azura has building supports with other units, especially ones not named Corrin, 20/5 would likely have come and gone before they marry, and at worst, I'd likely have beaten the damn game before they even marry.

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