PKL's Conquest Tier List v1.1

[Elieson]

I disagree with that mindset where slow play = inefficient, or even that taking a little to invest on a unit detracts from them (Mozu is not Nino. she literally takes half a chapter of babying and one chapter of treating her like a glass cannon before her growths start kicking in).

This is PKL's style of play, and I'm under the impression that we're here to discuss unit placement under his criteria. I personally don't like units that have a really poor start, if I'm playing for efficiency, because all I'm doing is slowing myself down reasons that I don't find worthwhile. In a run where Mozu's paralogue isn't even played, you can still beat this game. Playing it super safe is boring to me, and probably to others in this thread, but that's just my assumption. Feel free to make a tier list supporting your preferred style of play. I'm here to critique PKL's unit placement on his tier list based on how he plays. I'm not here to scrutinize his playstyle, and then his placement based on his playstyle.

Heck, in a ranked run, Nino's really good too fwiw, because of her contribution towards the EXP threshold.

Seriously though. I'd like to see a tier list for a turtling playstyle, since it'll no doubt be incredibly different than this one.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Elieson

[Alastor15243]

I take issue with your placement of Velouria on the list. She's amazingly powerful all-around physically and has the growths to properly make use of the wolfskin class. It looks like you marked her down severely for being Keaton's daughter because you put Keaton low on the list, but Keaton doesn't have to be used as a frontliner. He's an extremely useful pair-up for any female physical unit, granting strength, speed and defense. Give him to a powerful woman and Velouria will be a monster. Really, the child's father should only be used to mark down the child if the father is completely useless and has no merit to deploying at all, and that's not the case with Keaton. I think Velouria should've switched places with Sophie. Sophie's growths are terrible, and I have never managed to make her useful.

[Elieson]

Sophie's easy to get though...way easier than Velouria, and Sophie comes with C/C weapon ranks coupled with easy skill access through inheritance (passing down a Paladin skill and letting her go GK for Luna, or vice-versa, is super easy).

[Specta]

We should be working under the parameters of the tier list to critique it. If the goal of the tier list is LTC, then by LTC we should judge. If we want to judge units by another set of criteria, then that could just be another equal tier list, not a critique against PKL's necessarily.

If you've got another tier list in mind that doesn't take into account LTC, Guedes, set up your parameters and make it for sure. There's always other ways to play and other units shine in different playstyles. If you do want to argue some of the rankings with LTC in mind, though, that's relevant to this particular tier list.

edit: if pkl wants to clarify if he didn't actually mean LTC tho that's another thing lmao

Edited December 19, 2016 by Specta

[Alastor15243]

Sophie's easy to get though...way easier than Velouria, and Sophie comes with C/C weapon ranks coupled with easy skill access through inheritance (passing down a Paladin skill and letting her go GK for Luna, or vice-versa, is super easy).

Define "Easy to get". Velouria's paralogue isn't particularly difficult, and again, all you have to do is slap Keaton on somebody like Camilla and let his wife do the rest. And even if Sophie's is a bit easier, the result isn't worth it. Luna is almost useless unless you're willing to do procstacking (which I'm assuming requires more investment than a speed run is willing to put in), otherwise it's either overkill or a major gamble with every attack. And with Sophie's pathetic growths it's way more likely to be the latter. Velouria is stronger, tougher, has more HP, can manipulate enemy baiting with different stone buffs, and Sophie's sole advantages in skill and speed aren't worth it because Velouria can shift between stones for more speed in the rare events that she doesn't have enough for an enemy.

[Shadow Mir]

I take issue with your placement of Velouria on the list. She's amazingly powerful all-around physically and has the growths to properly make use of the wolfskin class. It looks like you marked her down severely for being Keaton's daughter because you put Keaton low on the list, but Keaton doesn't have to be used as a frontliner. He's an extremely useful pair-up for any female physical unit, granting strength, speed and defense. Give him to a powerful woman and Velouria will be a monster. Really, the child's father should only be used to mark down the child if the father is completely useless and has no merit to deploying at all, and that's not the case with Keaton. I think Velouria should've switched places with Sophie. Sophie's growths are terrible, and I have never managed to make her useful.

As far as I know, it's that in general, Velouria is unlikely to exist before the paralogues use exclusively promoted units.

[Elieson]

Define "Easy to get". Velouria's paralogue isn't particularly difficult, and again, all you have to do is slap Keaton on somebody like Camilla and let his wife do the rest. And even if Sophie's is a bit easier, the result isn't worth it. Luna is almost useless unless you're willing to do procstacking (which I'm assuming requires more investment than a speed run is willing to put in), otherwise it's either overkill or a major gamble with every attack. And with Sophie's pathetic growths it's way more likely to be the latter. Velouria is stronger, tougher, has more HP, can manipulate enemy baiting with different stone buffs, and Sophie's sole advantages in skill and speed aren't worth it because Velouria can shift between stones for more speed in the rare events that she doesn't have enough for an enemy.

by the time I've got Keaton on my team though, I've already dedicated Effie, Azura, Camilla, Beruka and Corrin-or-Felicia to their designated husbands. By easier, I mean that Keaton's arriving after you've got couples all over, meaning that saving Camilla or someone for Keaton just takes additional work by sandbagging your ability to get other kids at an earlier time. My typical runs have like, Selena (to pass down Riposte to Velouria) though others would obviously work. The point is that if you wanna push supports as you get them, a LTC route will already have kids planned out that begin appearing just as keaton arrives. That's what I meant by "easier". Why would I not pair-up Camilla with somebody that gives me a strong kid, sooner?

[Alastor15243]

As far as I know, it's that in general, Velouria is unlikely to exist before the paralogues use exclusively promoted units.

I don't get why that matters. The enemies scale, but your army gets stronger, too. I've never had trouble with the paralogues late-game.

by the time I've got Keaton on my team though, I've already dedicated Effie, Azura, Camilla, Beruka and Corrin-or-Felicia to their designated husbands. By easier, I mean that Keaton's arriving after you've got couples all over, meaning that saving Camilla or someone for Keaton just takes additional work by sandbagging your ability to get other kids at an earlier time. My typical runs have like, Selena (to pass down Riposte to Velouria) though others would obviously work. The point is that if you wanna push supports as you get them, a LTC route will already have kids planned out that begin appearing just as keaton arrives. That's what I meant by "easier". Why would I not pair-up Camilla with somebody that gives me a strong kid, sooner?

Because you'd be hard-pressed to find such a "strong kid". All of the "loyal" units, the ones that are on all routes, have kids who are basically inferior copies of themselves and their growth rates are largely garbage. Discounting Benny, that leaves you with Laslow, Niles and Arthur for male units who make viable kids who show up before Keaton does. There should still be plenty of room if you're looking for boyfriends that'll make strong kids.

PS: I removed Odin because I'm talking about physical children here, and magical options are rather limited.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Alastor15243

[Elieson]

I don't get why that matters. The enemies scale, but your army gets stronger, too. I've never had trouble with the paralogues late-game.

Keaton's best waifus are married or almost married by the time Keaton arrives.

Then you need four chapters minimum to hook Keaton up, and by the time he joins, pairing him up with lower-quality waifus costs a deployment slot aka giving up a character that you most likely already have a dedicated spot for. That's the issue.

If you decided to dedicate a playthrough towards getting your strongest Velouria, you've got her for 9 story chapters (not counting other kid paralogues), which is eh considering Forrest and Seigbert are the only kids that can come as late or later, and you might not even want them either.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Elieson

[eclipse]

by the time I've got Keaton on my team though, I've already dedicated Effie, Azura, Camilla, Beruka and Corrin-or-Felicia to their designated husbands. By easier, I mean that Keaton's arriving after you've got couples all over, meaning that saving Camilla or someone for Keaton just takes additional work by sandbagging your ability to get other kids at an earlier time. My typical runs have like, Selena (to pass down Riposte to Velouria) though others would obviously work. The point is that if you wanna push supports as you get them, a LTC route will already have kids planned out that begin appearing just as keaton arrives. That's what I meant by "easier". Why would I not pair-up Camilla with somebody that gives me a strong kid, sooner?

This is efficiency, not LTC. It doesn't mean super-optimization, but it does mean that we're not slowing down to feed the growth units. Biggest argument against Velouria IMO is that her only weapon ranks are tied to a melee class, so switching out to Berserker means either an Arms Scroll, or starting with Bronze Axes.

EDIT: And who's marrying Charlotte?

Edited December 19, 2016 by eggclipse

[Alastor15243]

If you decided to dedicate a playthrough towards getting your strongest Velouria, you've got her for 9 story chapters (not counting other kid paralogues), which is eh considering Forrest and Seigbert are the only kids that can come as late or later, and you might not even want them either.

Yes, but she'd actually be able to fight for those chapters, and kick a lot of butt. Sophie would be struggling the whole way because she, like Kana, is basically an inferior version of her parents, except in this case it's even worse since she's not even an inferior version of the main character.

[Elieson]

This is efficiency, not LTC. It doesn't mean super-optimization, but it does mean that we're not slowing down to feed the growth units. Biggest argument against Velouria IMO is that her only weapon ranks are tied to a melee class, so switching out to Berserker means either an Arms Scroll, or starting with Bronze Axes.

EDIT: And who's marrying Charlotte?

Velouria's not a bad unit. I think I haven't really said that, despite thinking it. She's pretty tough and bulky, and does a lot to animals like hoshidan fliers and such. She struggles a bit with speed in Lunatic but that's something that can be kinda worked with. Guardstone isn't that great IMO but it has a purpose.

In efficiency, I struggle to consider how you're comfortably squeezing in Keaton plus a wife for Keaton that isn't already fielded, after you've spent 8 or so chapters already dedicating resources to people that are probably securing spots on your team, or producing kids already that also have spots secured.

I could see her going up for viability but not for practicality.

Yes, but she'd actually be able to fight for those chapters, and kick a lot of butt. Sophie would be struggling the whole way because she, like Kana, is basically an inferior version of her parents, except in this case it's even worse since she's not even an inferior version of the main character.

Silas marrying anybody with a strgrowth that's better than his own is good for Sophie. She has a base 50% speedgrowth as it is, and slapping her with Effie to pull that 35% up, assuming you're using Effie, gives her a strong start. Class inheritance is a bit gimped (since both pass on GreatKnight), but Silas and Effie pass down different skills when you'd eventually recruit her, and Effie passed down tremendous benefits that allow Sophie to easily replace Silas with, for instance.

I'm far from an expert at ranking kids but it's practical to marry Effie to her transportation bot, then let Sophie pick up the slack because she has the ranks to put her above her dad.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Elieson

[eclipse]

Velouria's not a bad unit. I think I haven't really said that, despite thinking it. She's pretty tough and bulky, and does a lot to animals like hoshidan fliers and such. She struggles a bit with speed in Lunatic but that's something that can be kinda worked with. Guardstone isn't that great IMO but it has a purpose.

In efficiency, I struggle to consider how you're comfortably squeezing in Keaton plus a wife for Keaton that isn't already fielded, after you've spent 8 or so chapters already dedicating resources to people that are probably securing spots on your team, or producing kids already that also have spots secured.

I could see her going up for viability but not for practicality.

Levels are set upon the start of a game, so if you get really bad early RNG strings for certain units (say, Arthur), then I can see Keaton being used as a replacement. Stats aren't as important as Awakening, but they still play a role.

[guedesbrawl]

We should be working under the parameters of the tier list to critique it. If the goal of the tier list is LTC, then by LTC we should judge. If we want to judge units by another set of criteria, then that could just be another equal tier list, not a critique against PKL's necessarily.

If you've got another tier list in mind that doesn't take into account LTC, Guedes, set up your parameters and make it for sure. There's always other ways to play and other units shine in different playstyles. If you do want to argue some of the rankings with LTC in mind, though, that's relevant to this particular tier list.

edit: if pkl wants to clarify if he didn't actually mean LTC tho that's another thing lmao

Bah.

I can't do a tier list. I play conquest always heavily restricted, with things like "no prepromotes", "no reclassing' (i'm forced to break on of those two rules in C21 but still), "No mess hall/;bought tonics" or "no paralogues sans Mozu's", etc.

i mean, what's the point of a tier list that gimps everyone's potential?

Edited December 19, 2016 by guedesbrawl

[eclipse]

Bah.

I can't do a tier list. I play conquest always heavily restricted, with things like "no prepromotes", "no reclassing' (i'm forced to break on of those two rules in C21 but still), "No mess hall/;bought tonics" or "no paralogues sans Mozu's", etc.

And there's nothing wrong with that! If you think it's fun, then go for it~!

However, this is under the rule set of "walk briskly, and carry a large stick". Think of it as a different type of restriction.

[Alastor15243]

Question: How does everyone manage to make Jakob so useful on Conquest? I've never been able to make him any good at all with his poor growths, I've always been forced to resort to making him an aura and defensive rally bot.

[General Horace]

heart seal him to paladin and he decimates the entire early-midgme

[Elieson]

Bah.

I can't do a tier list. I play conquest always heavily restricted, with things like "no prepromotes", "no reclassing' (i'm forced to break on of those two rules in C21 but still), "No mess hall/;bought tonics" or "no paralogues sans Mozu's", etc.

i mean, what's the point of a tier list that gimps everyone's potential?

If it's fun for you, then just play how you feel is fun! I've done plenty of challenge runs (I have recorded runs of FE7 and i'm working on FE13, beating them with no Prepromotes/Lv30 units), silly solos (ask Eclipse about my H2 Julian solo of FE10) among others. Many of us enjoy challenges, so if you like doing runs with "no prepromotes" then you should totally understand people wanting to do "low turn count" runs. They're both self-imposed restrictions, ya?

[eclipse]

If it's fun for you, then just play how you feel is fun! I've done plenty of challenge runs (I have recorded runs of FE7 and i'm working on FE13, beating them with no Prepromotes/Lv30 units), silly solos (ask Eclipse about my H2 Julian solo of FE10) among others. Many of us enjoy challenges, so if you like doing runs with "no prepromotes" then you should totally understand people wanting to do "low turn count" runs. They're both self-imposed restrictions, ya?

There's a Julian in FE10?

Speaking of self-imposed challenges, the links in my sig are just that! This tier list is just one way of playing Fire Emblem, and efficiency lists have been around for a LONG time.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Pretty sure last i checked about how slow Tier list would went out, the GOAT to end all GOAT was Silas or something, because what the fuck is that class set and the rest is still the same mostly.

[Elieson]

There's a Julian in FE10?

FE10 was totally Shadow Dragon, since FE RD never happened :D

Speaking of challenge runs, are you ever doing a skittles FE12s run?

[guedesbrawl]

And there's nothing wrong with that! If you think it's fun, then go for it~!

However, this is under the rule set of "walk briskly, and carry a large stick". Think of it as a different type of restriction.

If it's fun for you, then just play how you feel is fun! I've done plenty of challenge runs (I have recorded runs of FE7 and i'm working on FE13, beating them with no Prepromotes/Lv30 units), silly solos (ask Eclipse about my H2 Julian solo of FE10) among others. Many of us enjoy challenges, so if you like doing runs with "no prepromotes" then you should totally understand people wanting to do "low turn count" runs. They're both self-imposed restrictions, ya?

i understand this is a restriction. But advertising this as a normal tier list feels wrong.

The word "efficiency," imo, needed to be in the topic title more than TC's name, because this is not normal conquest anymore. This list implies efficiency is somehow more legit than other methods of play or worth higher consideration. i totally agree that some parameters Tc laid out are important to a given unit's placement, but these are things that would also affect a normal player unless they specifically go out of their way to ban something.

Sorry for being a pain.

[Vorena]

i understand this is a restriction. But advertising this as a normal tier list feels wrong.

The word "efficiency," imo, needed to be in the topic title more than TC's name, because this is not normal conquest anymore. This list implies efficiency is somehow more legit than other methods of play or worth higher consideration. i totally agree that some parameters Tc laid out are important to a given unit's placement, but these are things that would also affect a normal player unless they specifically go out of their way to ban something.

Well, I suppose much of it is implied. Serenesforest overall has been a location for many parties, but the most predominately leading ideology here I have found is towards lower turn count. Which honestly has felt like a respectable category. Its generally pretty hard to go fast and fairly easy to take your time and grind out units. Plus, lower turn count focus makes it so much easier to turn unit viability. Units which take time to get good aren't very easily seen as not good in this category. Units which take resources compared to one's without resources are easier to tier as well. A defense on a great combat unit will be put to even more use than one's with poorer defense. Other things such as going out of your way to get units or get resources can be looked at as well.

Not only this, but this analysis in general can be extrapolated to slower runs as well. The other thing usually implied in these type of tier categories is the lack of abusing mechanics such as spending turns doing side battles. Though its become weird since they introduced so many variable entries into the game such as having access to Dragon Herbs, Boots, Dread Scroll, DLC content, etc.

[Alastor15243]

heart seal him to paladin and he decimates the entire early-midgme

But how does that make him high on the tier list? If you do that then you have one healer for the vast majority of the early game, no healer for chapter 12, and in exchange you get a unit with passable early-game stats and terrible growth rates who's basically an experience sink. Why isn't it more useful to use him to slap rallies and auras on himself and a child early in the game?

[Dark Holy Elf]

If Jakob's healing is so valuable that losing him would seriously hurt your team, then you're implying that Jakob deserves a pretty high tier placement, I'd say! He's either one of two healers (and the only one for C12) for a while, or he's your best non-Camilla combat unit until like... chapter 14ish, minimum. Don't forget he gets access to skills like Trample/breakers/etc. super-fast.

Him being an exp sink is no concern. Every combat unit is an exp sink. You're gonna be adding Leo, Xander, and possibly various kids / staffbots / maybe Keaton to your team midgame, so Jakob isn't making any worse use of exp than whatever units you're planning to drop for them, and he helps your team way more.