PKL's Conquest Tier List v1.1

[Shadow Mir]

That was an example. It wasn't specifically meant to be a real one here. As for the flairs, that's not how they work. The character's flair is just the one that's more likely to appear. Even a good chef can mess up a meal on occasion. The reason that I mentioned someone like Keaton though was because his cooking is pretty much always a net negative. Even people like Arthur can still manage to whip up something good overall. That simply requires that you pick a stat that you don't care if you lose with Arthur and then gamble that you get one you like. And the effect is actually stronger overall for whatever stat you want.

I hate when post fudge up, has anyone else's posts been acting funny for them lately?

Well, that's true to an extent, but still, food isn't infinite, and again, you don't know how many cooking attempts it'll take to get a satisfactory result, especially since for dishes that boost a random stat, you only have a 20% chance of getting a specific stat boosted - not the kind of odds I'd want to play with repeatedly.

Yeah, my posts tend to mess up on occasion - I especially hate when it goes and doubleposts.

[eclipse]

I think Kaze should be above Effie. His unique contribution of being able to take on all the mages in CQ makes him better. Chapters that he does really good in are 13(mages on the left side), 16(mages/sorcs on the left), 18(He can clear the entire top-right side on his own), 22(A bunch of mages on the right side), 24(Mages everywhere), 26(He can solo the enitre sorc room). Besides that, he still has decent combat vs non-magic enemies. He can one-round Ninjas and MNinjas in 17 and 25, one-round the mounted enemies in 18 with the beastkiller, one-rounds Kitsune/Nine-Tails in 19, one-rounds Falcos/Kinshis in 20,22,24.

Jakob can take out mages as well, thanks to Tomebreaker. Calamity Gate screws him over, but that doesn't pop up that often (Orochi and maybe some guys in Chapter 20).

[Inference]

I still think Felicia's potential as a unit is sorely untapped. Like, there's no way she's under Kaze and Effie with her completely amazing class sets and early game performance.

[Shadow Mir]

I think Elise needs to be higher. She's frail, yes, but her personal skill is awesome. There's also the part where she's you only healer if you go and Heart Seal Jakob to Paladin. I'm not feeling Kaze being above her when Jakob and Felicia are also good anti-mage solutions.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Espinosa]

Static deployment. Like lets say you have 10 "special" units, and you have a deployment of 6. Cooking only allows 5 units to get a bonus. But if you have generics, it pushes your army numbers higher for what constitutes half. Even if it takes half of your current numbers, this is still useful. You aim for 2 generics. So that means that you'd get 6 people to eat the meal. Even if 2 generics could still get the meal, that's 1/6 (2/12 for what it's worth just so you know I'm not fudging numbers) units that are generic that'll get the meal. This means that more than likely, a generic won't be eating it over a special character. However, what changes is that the deployment numbers can now all have the meal bonuses.

It gives you a chance to have all unique units to benefit from the meal, yet that chance is remarkably low. If I just want 3 specific units to get the meal bonus in a midgame chapter, it still takes forever to get all 3 to get it over somebody else.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

I think Elise needs to be higher. She's frail, yes, but her personal skill is awesome.

Completely agree. Elise is god tier, she's an amazing support unit for the first half of the game, and makes an incredible glass cannon once she promotes, and can tank mages very efficiently with her through the roof Res. Her Mag is so high, she even hurts them badly... I did not really paid attention to her Mag before, and I was amazed too see it at 32 Mag very early. But Malig Knight is definitely not her best class... I mean Strategists have high Mag, Spd, Lck and Res, that describes Elise perfectly, unlike Malig Knight that are too bulky, slow and have low Lck. Grinding to C rank in axes must be extremely painful, even with an Arms Scroll (that would be way more useful elsewhere), and that's not worth the pain. You also lose that Staff rank that is hard to get.

Concerning the Mess hall, I think it's a bit random until you upgrade it to level 3. Then it's basically a free +2 to two chosen stats if you give Peri or Jakob a Chef's Hat, and +2 to another one. Food is almost infinite with the Arena anyway.

But I think you guys are really counting way too much on Speed, especially for units like Xander, Leo or Laslow. "Fixing" speed is unnecessary, unless they got doubled by everyone (and by everyone, I mean not just Swordmasters and Ninjas...). I mean, when I read some posts, I have a feeling that a unit is judged on how much damage they can make on the screen before fighting : basically, Str/Mag and Speed.

And Peri makes an excellent anti mage unit too, even if she can't hit back.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Augestein]

It gives you a chance to have all unique units to benefit from the meal, yet that chance is remarkably low. If I just want 3 specific units to get the meal bonus in a midgame chapter, it still takes forever to get all 3 to get it over somebody else.

Which only matters if you're saying "I specifically want 6x units to have this" on a micro-scale. If I have a team that's comprised of units up to Chapter 13, it's hellishly unlikely that the half that are hit by a meal are all of the units I'm not planning on fielding. That's why I'm saying I'm fine with it when you're talking about single units. Of course you're not going to compare and entire team with the effects of food, but 1 unit? Sure, why not? I don't think it's entirely unreasonable. I mean, we aren't talking about something like the random stat boosts that people get on a daily basis before chapters or birthdays or the like.

But I think you guys are really counting way too much on Speed, especially for units like Xander, Leo or Laslow. "Fixing" speed is unnecessary, unless they got doubled by everyone (and by everyone, I mean not just Swordmasters and Ninjas...). I mean, when I read some posts, I have a feeling that a units is judged on how much damage they can make on the screen before fighting : basically, Str/Mag and Speed.

But that's not entirely true though. Let me use an example: Leo. If you turn Leo from a DK to a Sorcerer, he gets +1 speed. Pairing Up with Selena gives him + 3 speed, and then turning around and getting a C support then pairing up nets +4 speed. Right there without Leo having to gain a single level Leo has +5 speed. This opens up a huge portion of things that he can double that were once pipe dreams without the effect of a tonic or a cooking, rallies, dances. They should be considered as opposed to people like Revelations Silas who are pretty much doomed to never double-- course they probably won't get doubled, but you catch my drift.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Augestein

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

But that's not entirely true though. Let me use an example: Leo. If you turn Leo from a DK to a Sorcerer, he gets +1 speed. Pairing Up with Selena gives him + 3 speed, and then turning around and getting a C support then pairing up nets +4 speed. Right there without Leo having to gain a single level Leo has +5 speed. This opens up a huge portion of things that he can double that were once pipe dreams without the effect of a tonic or a cooking, rallies, dances. They should be considered as opposed to people like Revelations Silas who are pretty much doomed to never double-- course they probably won't get doubled, but you catch my drift.

A +2 Speed Meal is already enough to avoid getting doubled by most foes. That's a lot of pain to make him faster that could be used elsewhere, Selena could've been used elsewhere, he loses his movement, etc. I hate Pair-Up bots in general (but not the Pair-Up system...), it's more about stats stacking than a real strategy. Leo, IMO, is good to finish wounded enemies, take down enemies with low Res, or take some hits (physical and magical) with his natural bulk and high HP. In one word, to inflict a single strong hit. I wished he had more Lck and Skl though, because his stats are too balanced...

Edited December 16, 2016 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Augestein]

A +2 Speed Meal is already enough to avoid getting doubled by most foes. That's a lot of pain to make him faster that could be used elsewhere, Selena could've been used elsewhere, he loses his movement, etc. I hate Pair-Up bots in general (but not the Pair-Up system...), it's more about stats stacking than a real strategy. Leo, IMO, is good to finish wounded enemies, take down enemies with low Res, or take some hits (physical and magical) with his natural bulk and high HP. In one word, to inflict a single strong hit. I wished he had more Lck and Skl though, because his stats are too balanced...

It's just a pair up and a reclass though. I can understand if you hate pair up bots. I like them because then I don't need to worry about enemy dual strikes. Leo IMO is better suited for attacking first because of what his tome actually does. I do wish he had some more skill though, and I think his strength is a bit too low to make use of swords until he gets the Levin Sword.

I do agree that Elise is one of the better units in the game though.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Augestein

[Shadow Mir]

But that's not entirely true though. Let me use an example: Leo. If you turn Leo from a DK to a Sorcerer, he gets +1 speed. Pairing Up with Selena gives him + 3 speed, and then turning around and getting a C support then pairing up nets +4 speed. Right there without Leo having to gain a single level Leo has +5 speed. This opens up a huge portion of things that he can double that were once pipe dreams without the effect of a tonic or a cooking, rallies, dances. They should be considered as opposed to people like Revelations Silas who are pretty much doomed to never double-- course they probably won't get doubled, but you catch my drift.

But what's he going to be doubling as a Sorcerer that he wouldn't have had he remained as a Dark Knight and gotten the same treatment???

Edited December 16, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Elieson]

Elise is a convenience/luxury more than a necessity. She's super helpful esp with her Prf but the units above her do a lot more than she does:

Axe Wyvern Waifu Tier

Camilla

Top Tier

Azura

Corrin

Xander

Jakob (Ch2)

Silas

High Tier

Niles

Effie

Kaze

Leo

Felicia (Ch2)

Upper Mid Tier

Elise

Camilla's Camilla.

Azura's supporting the entire party from the minute she appears

Corrin's Corrin.

Xander doesn't afraid of shuffling units around, and tandems with Shelter to give him unit movement utility with 0 investment outside of a speedwing.

Jakob reks as base class or GK reclass for eternity

Silas/Niles/Effie/Kaze all contribute to combat where Elise can support them early on, but with only one healer for the chunk of early game (with reclassed Jakob) or two healers in the form of FeliciaJakob and Elise, you'll realize that stocking up on quality units with defensive attributes makes up for trying to always squeeze little heals out of Elise. She offers support, but can't Attack Stance until she promotes, and with 1-range healing options for quite a while, she might be forced to suck up a slot for an attack stance that you'd rather use with a person that can help you just obliterate the enemy rather than having to tank a hit in the first place.

Consumables in the form of Vulneraries allow you to heal up and act defensively, and Elise isn't doing a whole lot given her lack of Enemy Phase activity for a long long time...she might tank one hit per chapter, maybe? She's not in Chapters 7-10 outside of the Dark Mages in the Ice Village. She's useful with DragonVein there though...so I guess that's her glory moment early game.

Early on, Niles has utility and deals with fliers and mages/darkmages rather well with his surprisingly decent Res, and AttackStance Niles+Odin or whoever can eliminate most threats outright without needing a heal afterwards. Kaze and Effie are kind of the same thing...they're just killing who they hit plus hitting a bit extra here and there, since a lot of early-mid game combat is sort of squad-based rather than dealing with 50 enemies at once. Elise's PRF helps a bit with survival of newer units and helps some tank a bit longer but she's still a liability to work around, where others above her aren't necessarily of the same liability.

Like my original stance on her goes, I could see Leo dropping a bit and Elise bumping up to under Felicia in High Tier, but I can't see her rising much more than that. Kaze's gonna be dodging stuff and Effie's gonna be gobbling up Def and Spd to avoid being a liability, super quickly. Elise takes too long to grow out of it to warrant a significant position jump.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

It's just a pair up and a reclass though. I can understand if you hate pair up bots. I like them because then I don't need to worry about enemy dual strikes. Leo IMO is better suited for attacking first because of what his tome actually does. I do wish he had some more skill though, and I think his strength is a bit too low to make use of swords until he gets the Levin Sword.

I do agree that Elise is one of the better units in the game though.

Agreed, even if he can deal some physical damage to frail enemies, he's fine with the Levin Sword (but it's a bit useless, because Swords are very similar to Tomes in Fates...) or his Iceblade (if you can reach B rank in swords, good luck, I couldn't, but that's a very good sword for him), but I prefer to use him to finish the job, his Personal gives him a free +3 damage against wounded enemies, Vengeance can really increase his damage output (especially if you keep him wounded... Ignis can work too but it won't proc that often, doesn't give too much additional damage and needs more reclassing), Heartseeker makes him more accurate (but then the enemy can counterattack...), Lifetaker will also proc (and then you can make a really funny strategy that consists of getting him hit during the EP, killing an enemy (with Vengeance or not) during your turn, and then keeping him on the front lines for the next turn, and again!). And you can pick two other skill, like Bowbreaker (very useful in Conquest), and why not a Blow skill if you can.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Shadow Mir]

Elise is a convenience/luxury more than a necessity. She's super helpful esp with her Prf but the units above her do a lot more than she does:

Camilla's Camilla.

Azura's supporting the entire party from the minute she appears

Corrin's Corrin.

Xander doesn't afraid of shuffling units around, and tandems with Shelter to give him unit movement utility with 0 investment outside of a speedwing.

Jakob reks as base class or GK reclass for eternity

Silas/Niles/Effie/Kaze all contribute to combat where Elise can support them early on, but with only one healer for the chunk of early game (with reclassed Jakob) or two healers in the form of FeliciaJakob and Elise, you'll realize that stocking up on quality units with defensive attributes makes up for trying to always squeeze little heals out of Elise. She offers support, but can't Attack Stance until she promotes, and with 1-range healing options for quite a while, she might be forced to suck up a slot for an attack stance that you'd rather use with a person that can help you just obliterate the enemy rather than having to tank a hit in the first place.

Consumables in the form of Vulneraries allow you to heal up and act defensively, and Elise isn't doing a whole lot given her lack of Enemy Phase activity for a long long time...she might tank one hit per chapter, maybe? She's not in Chapters 7-10 outside of the Dark Mages in the Ice Village. She's useful with DragonVein there though...so I guess that's her glory moment early game.

Early on, Niles has utility and deals with fliers and mages/darkmages rather well with his surprisingly decent Res, and AttackStance Niles+Odin or whoever can eliminate most threats outright without needing a heal afterwards. Kaze and Effie are kind of the same thing...they're just killing who they hit plus hitting a bit extra here and there, since a lot of early-mid game combat is sort of squad-based rather than dealing with 50 enemies at once. Elise's PRF helps a bit with survival of newer units and helps some tank a bit longer but she's still a liability to work around, where others above her aren't necessarily of the same liability.

Like my original stance on her goes, I could see Leo dropping a bit and Elise bumping up to under Felicia in High Tier, but I can't see her rising much more than that. Kaze's gonna be dodging stuff and Effie's gonna be gobbling up Def and Spd to avoid being a liability, super quickly. Elise takes too long to grow out of it to warrant a significant position jump.

I'm not really sold on Kaze, though - Jakob and Felicia get Tomebreaker to screw over mages big time, and Niles comes earlier and can pick locks. And to say Kaze's going to be dodging stuff is a lot of unfounded faith in him, as I see it.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Elieson]

I'm not really sold on Kaze,

I personally find Kaze more useful due to doubling basically everything (for better stance abuse) and being a tad more useful until about midgame than Silas. Strategic Shuriken handling lets him run around with the Steel Shuriken for big debuffing or alternative options for just double-hits. It's never a bad thing unless you're putting him up against WTD that can counter.

[Shadow Mir]

I personally find Kaze more useful due to doubling basically everything (for better stance abuse) and being a tad more useful until about midgame than Silas. Strategic Shuriken handling lets him run around with the Steel Shuriken for big debuffing or alternative options for just double-hits. It's never a bad thing unless you're putting him up against WTD that can counter.

Well, other than the doubling everything part, I find Jakob and Felicia to do well enough, and they can heal too.

[Augestein]

But what's he going to be doubling as a Sorcerer that he wouldn't have had he remained as a Dark Knight and gotten the same treatment???

I want to say that some of the soldier units he can reliably double even if they are blessed. He can double enemy mages, and he gets a critical boost as a Sorc that he doesn't get as a DK. Plus, you still have the option of tonics which still helps boost that more. Plus it turns that shaky base and growth into something that you can eventually wean him off of Selena-- Though I'll be honest, I prefer him with Felicia so he can become a strategist.

Agreed, even if he can deal some physical damage to frail enemies, he's fine with the Levin Sword (but it's a bit useless, because Swords are very similar to Tomes in Fates...) or his Iceblade (if you can reach B rank in swords, good luck, but that's a very good sword for him), but I prefer to use him to finish the job, his Personal gives him a free +3 damage against wounded enemies, Vengeance can really increase his damage output (especially if you keep him wounded... Ignis can work too but it won't proc that often and doesn't give too much additional damage), Heartseeker makes him more accurate (but then the enemy can counterattack...), Lifetaker will also proc (and then you can make a really funny strategy that consists of getting him hit during the EP, procing Vengeance during your turn, and then keeping him on the front lines for the next turn, and again!)

I can accept that. It sounds like we both just use him differently. I think that means he's just good rather than either of us being wrong in this case.

I'll be honest about Felicia though, I don't find her to be that good as a Maid. Are you guys reclassing Felicia or are you leaving her as a Maid?

Edited December 16, 2016 by Augestein

[Shadow Mir]

I want to say that some of the soldier units he can reliably double even if they are blessed. He can double enemy mages, and he gets a critical boost as a Sorc that he doesn't get as a DK. Plus, you still have the option of tonics which still helps boost that more. Plus it turns that shaky base and growth into something that you can eventually wean him off of Selena-- Though I'll be honest, I prefer him with Felicia so he can become a strategist.

I'm not seeing 1 extra base and 5% extra growth as enough to make me think it's worth the heart seal when I could get more mileage out of using it on someone else. The crit boost is nice, but ehhh, it's not something I'd really count on to make any realistic difference.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Elieson]

Well, other than the doubling everything part, I find Jakob and Felicia to do well enough, and they can heal too.

Which is why Elise isn't above Felicia

[Shadow Mir]

Which is why Elise isn't above Felicia

I know, but I think Elise could stand to be in High tier regardless.

Also, I still think Silas isn't top tier.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

Elise is a convenience/luxury more than a necessity. She's super helpful esp with her Prf but the units above her do a lot more than she does:

Consumables in the form of Vulneraries allow you to heal up and act defensively, and Elise isn't doing a whole lot given her lack of Enemy Phase activity for a long long time...she might tank one hit per chapter, maybe? She's not in Chapters 7-10 outside of the Dark Mages in the Ice Village. She's useful with DragonVein there though...so I guess that's her glory moment early game.

But Elise shouldn't take any physical hits! That's why I consider her as godtier, because used correctly, she's a monster on the battlefield. That's not the kind of unit you sit on a place to absorb everything, and there are not a lot of units that can do that in CQ anyway, unless you pair-up everyone maybe... But her high Mov and Mag make her a very good healer early, later she attacks with Tomes that are two-ranged weapons so most of the enemies cannot counterattack (Mages can, but she'll laugh at them with her Res, Ninjas and Archers can be dangerous though), her Luck prevents her from getting critted, she makes a good use of Inspiration and Demoiselle with her Prf, and she shouldn't block pair-up attacks because her supports need more time to be build, etc. If you have to keep a healer (and you probably should, even with skills like Sol and Lifetaker), she's clearly the best choice.

I think you're overrating Camilla a bit. Yeah she's a good prepromote with her awesome growths and all, but she's stuck with her Base stats for a while, that are not extraordinary once you go further in the game (she joins too early IMO), especially in Def (Beruka's 4 points behind, but is just a level 9).

I can accept that. It sounds like we both just use him differently. I think that means he's just good rather than either of us being wrong in this case.

I'll be honest about Felicia though, I don't find her to be that good as a Maid. Are you guys reclassing Felicia or are you leaving her as a Maid?

(He already has acces to Strategist without Felicia though) That means he's not as bad as most people think he is, eh! Yes, I don't really like Felicia either, her growths are a bit low to be honest (and her bases aren't that high), her Str is garbage and I don't like to rely on one weapon (especially if it drops her avoid like the Flame Shuriken that comes too late and her Plate whereas she's frail), her growths are too much balanced and generic (like 40 everywhere) and I think Elise makes a better Strategist. She's good early because she has access to promoted skills and has more Movement but she'll be quickly average. And her child suffers from her growths.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Augestein]

(He already has acces to Strategist without Felicia though) That means he's not as bad as most people think he is, eh! Yes, I don't really like Felicia either, her growths are a bit low to be honest (and her bases aren't that high), her Str is garbage and I don't like to rely on one weapon (especially if it drops her avoid like the Flame Shuriken that comes too late and her Plate whereas she's frail), her growths are too much balanced and generic (like 40 everywhere) and I think Elise makes a better Strategist. She's good early because she has access to promoted skills and has more Movement but she'll be quickly average. And her child suffers from her growths.

Fair enough. He does have Troubadour base. I don't know why I kept thinking it was a physical class. But yeah, Felicia IMO is pretty mediocre. Flame Shuriken comes to late for my liking, and that strength growth is horrendous. As a strategist she's okay, but I do think that Elise is a better one. Even if Elise promoted a bit early.

[Elieson]

But Elise shouldn't take any physical hits! That's why I consider her as godtier, because used correctly, she's a monster on the battlefield. That's not the kind of unit you sit on a place to absorb everything, and there are not a lot of units that can do that in CQ anyway, unless you pair-up everyone maybe... But her high Mov and Mag make her a very good healer early, later she attacks with Tomes that are two-ranged weapons so most of the enemies cannot counterattack (Mages can, but she'll laugh at them with her Res, Ninjas and Archers can be dangerous though), her Luck prevents her from getting critted, she makes a good use of Inspiration and Demoiselle with her Prf, and she shouldn't block pair-up attacks because her supports need more time to be build, etc. If you have to keep a healer (and you probably should, even with skills like Sol and Lifetaker), she's clearly the best choice.

I think you're overrating Camilla a bit. Yeah she's a good prepromote with her awesome growths and all, but she's stuck with her Base stats for a while, that are not extraordinary once you go further in the game (she joins too early IMO), especially in Def (Beruka's 4 points behind, but is just a level 9).

Camilla is leagues ahead of where Endgame Beruka's speed will ever be, and she has sole demand on the Bolt Axe, which hits like a truck. Beruka's the tanky flier, which is her thing, and Camilla's growths are fine for what she is, to remain relevant for the whole game.

Also, yes, Elise shouldn't be taking hits, but if you need to place her right behind say, Arthur, who desperately needs a heal so he'll avoid death in Chapter 10, then both Arthur and Elise are put at risk if your opponent has 2-range (which many enemies do have 2-range). Early on, Elise just can't do enough compared to most of the people above her.

If you have to keep a healer (and you probably should, even with skills like Sol and Lifetaker), she's clearly the best choice.

There are a lot of situations that being strong at combat outweigh the need for a healer in the first place. Having a healer means you can afford to be reckless once in a while, or patch up w/o an item, or play more aggressively. If you can just kill stuff without taking hits (attack stance Kaze+??, Javelin/Hand Axe Effie/Arthur, etc) can prevent the need for battle, and then attempt to take a hit and/or go with PairUp to mitigate damage anyway. Elise can't contribute to combat like Felicia (who joins earlier) and Jakob (who's arguably good enough as a Butler/Strat). Elise gives Jakob the option to go GK and be better but still, in Lunatic, you're not sending units around so hard in the sense that a horse would be necessary to keep up.

I think Elise is great, but I don't think she's as great from Start to Finish as additional good early-midgame combat. When she promotes, she shines, but getting her there isn't something you can rush, and there's going to be more turns where Elise does nothing than turns that say, Kaze does nothing.

*Edits on Camilla > Beruka

Base Growths
Name	Class		Level	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res
Camilla	Malig Knight	/	40	50	25	50	55	25	35	45
Beruka	Wyvern Rider	/	45	30	10	55	30	45	40	25

Camilla	Malig Knight	/	40	50*	25*	50	55*	25	35	45*
Beruka	Wyvern Lord	/	45	30	5	60	30	45	40	25

Base Stats
Name	Class           Level	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res
Camilla	Malig Knight	1	30	19	11	15	19	12	18	15
Beruka	Wyvern Rider	9	23	13	0	14	9	10	14	7

Camilla's got +10 speed over Beruka's never-changing 30% Speed growth. Camilla lacks up to 11 levels of growth that Beruka can gather, but even if you rush Beruka from 9 to 20 before promoting, you're taking a ton of time to get Beruka to a Lv1 Wyvern Lord (because Malig Knight wouldn't be as good for Beruka unless you're going specifically for Trample, and the gains for W.Lord suit Beruka much much more, + Rally Def)

Name	Class		Level	HP	Str	Mag	Skl	Spd	Lck	Def	Res
Camilla	Malig Knight	1	30	19	11	15	19	12	18	15
Beruka	Wyvern Lord	1	29.95	18.3	1.1	24.05	14.3	15.95	21.4	10.75

In which Camilla is ahead in every stat other than Skill/Luck and a handful of points in Def, and Camilla's still got better growths in just about every department other than again Skill/Luk/Def by marginal amounts. 14speed with Penalties for Hand Axe usage is really really slow.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Elieson

[CT075]

But Elise shouldn't take any physical hits! That's why I consider her as godtier, because used correctly, she's a monster on the battlefield.

why does a unit that is monstrous under the condition of being "used correctly" (whatever that means) be considered better than a unit that is just as mounstrous with no such strings attached?

If you have to keep a healer (and you probably should, even with skills like Sol and Lifetaker), she's clearly the best choice.

bolded the important word

I think you're overrating Camilla a bit. Yeah she's a good prepromote with her awesome growths and all, but she's stuck with her Base stats for a while

which are amazing

that are not extraordinary once you go further in the game

at which point in time enemies are giving actual EXP and camilla will thus not be at base stats

especially in Def (Beruka's 4 points behind, but is just a level 9).

this is completely irrelevant

the big thing here is that while elise can get to ultra turbo ridiculous mode, she doesn't start there (see: camilla), and unlike people like Kaze, Corrin or even Silas she doesn't just naturally get there by existing. she's a healer and offers valuable utility to the team... that can replicated by Jakob or Felicia if necessary (unlike Azura). she's a ludicrously powerful player phase nuke... after she promotes.

basically those qualifiers are what keep elise where she is

Edited December 16, 2016 by CT075

[Florete]

5 pages and PKL himself hasn't said anything since the beginning.

Unsure about Leo but still pulling for Elise to be higher.

[guedesbrawl]

Effie is probably a little high for what she does too, she requires the early master seal (not whole lot of competition admittably) to function, but when she's at her strongest, dudes like Jakob and Camilla are immortal demigods and someone below her like Leo is more valuable during a harder part of the game.

Uh, what? why would you say that?

Effie has high utility even goign through level 20 before promotion. Wasting 10 level ups of strength and some of level ups in HP/DEf that she need to be resilient later on for absolute NO REASON...?

Like, what?

Chapter 10 still has her destroying squishies and tanking.

Chapter 11 has Effie beign extremely useful for breaking inot the Ninja/Archer/Samurai rooms.

chapter 12 still lets her push through one side of the map and then backtrack and stop one group of Apohecaries with very little support needed. (i used Azura, but a vulneary works too)

Chapter 13 has a load of squishy fliers coming at you midway through

Chapter 14 shoves tanks at you from the start, where Effie's high power/durability lets her help out

chapter 16 has effie one shotting mages and tanking out swordsmen, as well as being reasonable arrow bait.

Chapter 17 requires going on the offensive unless you are fine with tanking the entrance and wasting 6 other units to stop Saizo from moving through to kill himself. Effie's ability to do high damage to ninjas an live with the debuffs is great, especially since she promotes there.

chapter 18 has plenty of beasts to beast kill, and being able to one shot sorcerors when a bunch spawn near the upper boss is useful.

Chapter 19 can be soloed by effie with little help

chapter 20 has more fliers, so it's like 14 but with beast killer. She, again, one shot mages and walls out spearmen.

chapter 21 has monsters, and you have blessed lance

Chapter 22 requires going on the offensive when yukimura's reinforcements show up. There are mages and fliers again

Chapter 23 has lunge chains Effie can tank out with the proper setup down below.

Chapter 24 has more squishies to kill, and the map forces hyper offense where Effie shines especially since enemies come to you.

chapter 25 has squishies, but you need attack stance this time around.

chapter 26 has effie being useful as long as there are no hammer users near her.

etc.

She's way too good.

Keaton and Mozu's placements are awful as well. Keaton is tanky like effie but has mobility, always has beast killer, has the SPD to tango with C25s enemies, gives a massive SPD/STr boost on pair-up. Literally an arthur that is better at everything Arthur does except without 2 range.

Mozu is easy to train and incredibly powerful. Her only competition for feeding the entirety of her paralogue is Odin. Who is bad.