PKL's Conquest Tier List v1.1

[XeKr]

On 1/26/2017 at 4:31 PM, BANRYU said:

Did +Mag/-Luk and planning to try the magic Paladin build. I'm excited to try it but don't really know what skills to go for, if it matters.

Okay I'm playing a male Corrin, so might be a bit of a disadvantage, but Felicia@Strategist has been pulling her weight pretty good so far. Her frailness has been irritating but she can ORKO a lot of things that matter pretty good so there's that. 

EDIT: Oh also my corrin is currently sitting pretty as a Cav, but is actually pretty weak (has trouble killing things after coming out of Nohr Prince with the Dragonstone and whatnot), so hopefully that gets better...? Should be fine once I can get my hands on a Levin Sword... until then I've been mostly using Camilla to babysit him

Good to know, I'll keep it in mind. Nyx has actually been all right so far for me.

@ this and above ones I didn't respond to, don't have much to say on it but is good to know. Hoping/assuming the various staves aren't too expensive in terms of upkeep; I typically try to save their uses as much as possible though I did wind up having to use a double Freeze on some of the guys in the center room of Ch11 so they didn't kill anyone. 

 I grabbed Haitaka already, planning to drop Odin for him as soon as he S-ranks Felicia (been using him as a pairup bot for her to make her Mag hit harder) 

Planning to drop him as mentioned lol. Ophelia is looking like Felicia will be her mom so hopefully that works out okay, ElisexOdin was too much trouble to bother with so.

Currently I'm up to Chapter 12, managed to get past Port Takumi hell somehow lol I was actually pretty impressed with myself for that. Not looking forward to the Pot Palace, I remember it giving me trouble but hopefully I'll be cool. Thanks again!  

Not sure how much progress you’ve made since but eh.

+Mag Paladin with the Levin Sword steamrolls most things (but Ninjas) so it’s definitely a good choice. It’s not necessary, but you may want to build some A supports for various purposes such as Dark Knight for more Mag base+Malefic Aura (if for some reason mag is too low for various enemies) or Malig Knight for flight+trample (even Fire should do decent damage).

Per your later edit, +Mag Cav has a worse earlygame compared to +Str/Spd Cav/Wyvern, but the Levin Sword makes up for it. Usually Jakob/Camilla can cover until that point.

Jakob has higher Str/Def and early Paladin is ridiculous due to getting Elbow Room and Defender so fast. And he can then pick up other lategame skills quickly. It’s generally harder for Felicia to pick up those promoted lvl 15 skills with Bronze. At a faster pace, she generally has some Spd/Def troubles as well. Still, she’s can be useful support with her auras (and early Inspiration) and as you’ve seen can do good damage with Tomes or the Flame Shuriken.

Early promoting units is mainly for filler help until Leo/Xander join. Effie/Nyx are notable since they can get mounts. Nyx in particular is naturally fast which helps as a Dark Knight. The class bases give her a bit a bulk as well. In the lategame (even if promoted at 20), she may run into some trouble regardless due to her Skl/Luck and Def.

Being conservative with Staves is good as Conquest gets harder later, but avoid hoarding when using the item now would make things much easier. (Just save 1 Rescue for Endgame. That’s pretty important. >_>)

Felicia!Ophelia has slightly more bulk (but not much), a lot more Luck, but less Mag/Spd than Nyx. Though Ophelia can get advanced skill inheritance from Felicia, doesn’t require training, and has access to Vantage (obtaining it might require some work/planning though). Leo is usually the easier mage to use (just needs some Spd), but Ophelia can do some interesting things in certain builds.

Re: Port Takumi. Nice job clearing it. I think some people feel it's overhyped since smart use of Tonics and Camilla basically makes it 11 turns of free exp for other characters. Still, it's arguably one of the best Defend maps in the series due to the twist and the increasing pressure. I think most players (at least on initial runs) barely finish, as in next turn would overwhelm them, so it feels very impressive. Most other Defend maps are far more easily trivialized. 

For C12, you may have cleared already but there’s a few options for efficient clears. Can go up middle, break pots, and Camilla can fight Ryoma for a fast clear but the chance of success isn’t great. Hit rate almost decent with Dual Club, but even still not so easy to meet Str/Spd benchmarks without meals (maybe take a turn to get an Enfeeble off). You can also go up the sides, ignoring the DV, for a more reliable clear (and the chests).

Re: ? about midgame Heart Seals. Camilla gets more physical stats but she can also be a pretty dominant magic user in Malig due to Bolt Axe mt. May want to switch between the classes. Some will use Selena as a Falcon (if capture is not used) since it’s a way to get Rally Speed and a flying Rescue Staff user. Gunter to Wyvern/Malig is also useful if Corrin isn’t in a flying class, or Bow Knight if Corrin needs Spd. If C19 is proving to be a problem, an option is Xander to Wyvern Lord since he has base D lances anyway (but it should be fairly easy with Beruka and Percy as you do). 

[joshcja]

So if someone has found a remotely consistent 4 turn purist clear of ch9 with rescue, I'll eat crow and admit Elise/Odin are shit in LTC/Efficiency. Until then purist route Odin+Lunge user (normally Elise, since that free's up corn) has a surprisingly consistent 4 turn clear of ch9. The route does involve very heavy reloading on ch8 and chmozu for levelup's but it works.

It's "possible" without Odin but the number of resets involved are excruciating, let me rephrase, the number of resets are horribly life consumingly excruciating compared to rigging a level 9.7x Odin with 4 magic levelups on lunatic LTC/Efficiency without dropping turns. Past that I wind up using him all game long thanks to the ch10/13 exp glut. Never let me down yet.

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In efficiency aka "kinda fast casual" play....I'm sick of arguing over this shit, let's ignore all the positive facets of both contested units. Odin is by far the best gen 1 unit because he makes a unit that invalidates the rest of your army entirely and completely wipes every map in the game at near 100% CoS. Well, birds stay useful, Elise is the first bird, makes good babies, and is the bestest bird for ferrying Ophelia around. So she's useful.

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In purely casual play... fuck it I'll just continue running the cult of Odinphelia on the down low. Someday we will cleanse you heathens.

Edited January 31, 2017 by joshcja

[XeKr]

Make a video, because it doesn’t seem like anyone is really being convinced that the efficiency of your strats is comparable to mounted Corrin/Jakob + siblings steamroll. PKL/Gwimpage/Chiki/others all have tons of video/playlog evidence for Fates or past FEs, and general credibility as extremely good strategists in efficiency/ltc/draft/speedrun contexts. (edit: ltc and such have partial relevance in efficiency lists because it informs us what's fast, even if the exact strats are often mostly discounted due to their low success chance)

edit2: I guess I should clarify this is kinda a "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" thing. Anyone can post in this and other topics about how characters should be tiered or contribute to efficient clears. The claims will be discussed and reasonableness assessed. But when you aggressively promote certain characters and strategies so contrary to the thinking by established players (Odin is unmounted with bad bases. He's presently in bottom. Corrin/Jakob/Camilla dominate the game, not Ophelia. etcetc), you should have some clear evidence. A lot of your posts have some details that make sense, but also many things that are opaque or counterintuitive. A video is one potential way to address this, otoh calling people "heathens" will probably cause them to ignore you.

Edited January 29, 2017 by XeKr

[BANRYU]

5 minutes ago, XeKr said:

Not sure how much progress you’ve made since but eh.

None actually haha ;; I had a little period where I didn't want to play because I was indecisive about how to proceed with my units but I think I'm good now. Just working on my all-ninja birthright run and I'll be getting back to it soon hopefully!

+Mag Paladin with the Levin Sword steamrolls most things (but Ninjas) so it’s definitely a good choice. It’s not necessary, but you may want to build some A supports for various purposes such as Dark Knight for more Mag base+Malefic Aura (if for some reason mag is too low for various enemies) or Malig Knight for flight+trample (even Fire should do decent damage).

Yeah I actually seriously considered all the flat damage-stacking skills like those since there's not many more ways to increase Levin Sword damage (no procs and whatnot), I just wasn't sure about having to switch classes so much? Appreciate the suggestions though, I see talk of the magic paladin build all the time but never see any skills suggested for it lol ;;; So I guess it would be Dragon Fang/Shelter/Lunge, Elbow Room, Malefic Aura, Trample, and Aegis? If I'm going Malig Knight I guess Lunge and Savage Blow might be other options too....? Aegis isn't the best I know but it rolls Shuriken/Tomebreaker into one...

Trample would also be cool since, as a Paladin, I can use both Wyrmslayers and Beastslayers to get the advantage on units corrin loses Trample boost on lol

Per your later edit, +Mag Cav has a worse earlygame compared to +Str/Spd Cav/Wyvern, but the Levin Sword makes up for it. Usually Jakob/Camilla can cover until that point.

Sounds cool. I guess I'm just waiting + saving my DVP for the weapon shop upgrade at this point, then. I'm using a male Corrin though, but Camilla and Felicia have been doing pretty good, with Cam helping feed the corn

Jakob has higher Str/Def and early Paladin is ridiculous due to getting Elbow Room and Defender so fast. And he can then pick up other lategame skills quickly. It’s generally harder for Felicia to pick up those promoted lvl 15 skills with Bronze. At a faster pace, she generally has some Spd/Def troubles as well. Still, she’s can be useful support with her auras (and early Inspiration) and as you’ve seen can do good damage with Tomes or the Flame Shuriken. The suggestion that josh gave me was go ahead with Felicia!Ophy like I'm on track for, and to get her Shurikenbreaker with Bow Knight... it'll be a pain, as you mentioned, and I'll probably ditch both her and Odin afterward but might be worth it for Ophelia.

Early promoting units is mainly for filler help until Leo/Xander join. Effie/Nyx are notable since they can get mounts. Nyx in particular is naturally fast which helps as a Dark Knight. The class bases give her a bit a bulk as well. In the lategame (even if promoted at 20), she may run into some trouble regardless due to her Skl/Luck and Def.

Ahh, sounds good. I'll probably do that for Nyx then, since I'm not planning to make much extended use of her.

Being conservative with Staves is good as Conquest gets harder later, but avoid hoarding when using the item now would make things much easier. (Just save 1 Rescue for Endgame. That’s pretty important. >_>)

I've got the Rescue securely in my box lol. no worries ~3o I typically am habitually as conservative as I can afford to be with staves anyway, so I guess my habits are already good there. That middle room on chapter 11 scared me pretty bad though so I just wanted to make sure I didn't have to redo it haha ;;

Felicia!Ophelia has slightly more bulk (but not much), a lot more Luck, but less Mag/Spd than Nyx. Though Ophelia can get advanced skill inheritance from Felicia, doesn’t require training, and has access to Vantage (obtaining it might require some work/planning though). Leo is usually the easier mage to use (just needs some Spd), but Ophelia can do some interesting things in certain builds.

ahh yeah you saw the plan there. Vantage + Shurikenbreaker planned for inheritance if I can manage it but we'll see how it goes. 

Re: Port Takumi. Nice job clearing it. I think some people feel it's overhyped since smart use of Tonics and Camilla basically makes it 11 turns of free exp for other characters. Still, it's arguably one of the best Defend maps in the series due to the twist and the increasing pressure. I think most players (at least on initial runs) barely finish, as in next turn would overwhelm them, so it feels very impressive. Most other Defend maps are far more easily trivialized. Yeah, Takumi gets the nice distinction of two really good maps haha.

For C12, you may have cleared already but there’s a few options for efficient clears. Can go up middle, break pots, and Camilla can fight Ryoma for a fast clear but the chance of success isn’t great. Hit rate almost decent with Dual Club, but even still not so easy to meet Str/Spd benchmarks without meals (maybe take a turn to get an Enfeeble off). You can also go up the sides, ignoring the DV, for a more reliable clear (and the chests).

Re: ? about midgame Heart Seals. Camilla gets more physical stats but she can also be a pretty dominant magic user in Malig due to Bolt Axe mt. May want to switch between the classes. Some will use Selena as a Falcon (if capture is not used) since it’s a way to get Rally Speed and a flying Rescue Staff user. Gunter to Wyvern/Malig is also useful if Corrin isn’t in a flying class, or Bow Knight if Corrin needs Spd. If C19 is proving to be a problem, an option is Xander to Wyvern Lord since he has base D lances anyway (but it should be fairly easy with Beruka and Percy as you do). 

I haven't actually gotten any further, but I did chat a bit with joshcja about what I was gonna do and I think I've got a better idea about what I am gonna do moving forward. Gonna reply more specifically in the quotes.

[-Cynthia-]

4 hours ago, joshcja said:

 

It's "possible" without Odin but the number of resets involved are excruciating, let me rephrase, the number of resets are horribly life consumingly excruciating compared to rigging a level 9.7x Odin with 4 magic levelups on lunatic LTC without dropping turns. Past that I wind up using him all game long thanks to the ch10/13 exp glut. Never let me down yet.

I think most of the people here discount rigging level ups for units- that would go into the 'unreliable' part of efficiency. Getting Odin all those kills on C8 in the first place also is probably not in the interest of efficiency on that map.

[Carmine Sword]

Chapter 8 is completed in 4 or 5 turns, so there's no way Odin is getting 4 levels during that span of time considering he can't ORKO anything. Even just 1 level sounds difficult for him to get in that time tbh. You lose way more turns getting Odin to level 9 before Chapter 9 then you do... what is Odin doing in Chapter 9 to give a 4 turn clear exactly? You didn't really elaborate on how he actually helps other than just saying he does.

[joshcja]

On 1/29/2017 at 6:50 PM, -Cynthia- said:

I think most of the people here discount rigging level ups for units- that would go into the 'unreliable' part of efficiency. Getting Odin all those kills on C8 in the first place also is probably not in the interest of efficiency on that map.

Most people here discount rigging levelup's because you cannot effectively rig the levelup's on corin/jakob/royals. With any other unit you just walk into join chapter>gain 4-6 levels>soft reset> reload/run with that seed. 100% reliable. Made very fast and painless real-time by the free paragon scroll.

In efficiency you're not trying for balls hard minimal turncount so the rng of forcefeeding Odin is heavily reduced (effectively nill). Most of the LTC RNG comes from forcing that fat fuck to run his fatass off and dodge dodge dodge.

Not much outside of missclicking shrine maiden on a corin reclass can actually affect the efficiency of the clear on ch8/chmozu. That shit run's like clockwork.

Edit: FFS Carmine Doesn't gets Odin 2 levels in a draft on ch8. On hard mode, so there was less exp laying around the place and random levels were a thing. With 3 village, without full deployment, without dropping turns. If you arbitrarily ban both paralouge 1 and invasions then yes, there is not enough exp (this is why I said "most" sets of arbitrary self restrictions). Otherwise yes there is enough exp, and yes there is documentation of this.

Edited January 31, 2017 by joshcja

[Elieson]

48 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Most people here discount rigging levelup's because you cannot effectively rig the levelup's on corin/jakob/royals. With any other unit you just walk into join chapter>gain 4-6 levels>soft reset> reload/run with that seed. 100% reliable. Made very fast and painless real-time by the free paragon scroll.

The Paragon Scroll that the OP specifically says is banned?

 

[joshcja]

8 hours ago, Elieson said:

The Paragon Scroll that the OP specifically says is banned?

 

Yes.

It's not used in the actual run.

You go into chapter. Ignore everything. Hand paragon and sufficent boosters for a solo clear to the dude you want to rig. Gain 5+ levels. Reset, reload, repeat till you see benchmarks. Reset again and resume play under normal restrictions.

It takes about 15 minutes real time to rig near perfect level up seeding on a single unit using this abuse.

Document the seed if you're going for mid-chapter stat up strats.

Edited January 30, 2017 by joshcja

[XeKr]

16 hours ago, BANRYU said:

Yeah I actually seriously considered all the flat damage-stacking skills like those since there's not many more ways to increase Levin Sword damage (no procs and whatnot), I just wasn't sure about having to switch classes so much? Appreciate the suggestions though, I see talk of the magic paladin build all the time but never see any skills suggested for it lol ;;; So I guess it would be Dragon Fang/Shelter/Lunge, Elbow Room, Malefic Aura, Trample, and Aegis? If I'm going Malig Knight I guess Lunge and Savage Blow might be other options too....? Aegis isn't the best I know but it rolls Shuriken/Tomebreaker into one...

Trample would also be cool since, as a Paladin, I can use both Wyrmslayers and Beastslayers to get the advantage on units corrin loses Trample boost on lol

 The suggestion that josh gave me was go ahead with Felicia!Ophy like I'm on track for, and to get her Shurikenbreaker with Bow Knight... it'll be a pain, as you mentioned, and I'll probably ditch both her and Odin afterward but might be worth it for Ophelia

Usually what skills you get aren’t that important, what matters more is how much out of the way do you go to get them. Basically for Mag paladin the crucial part of the build is just the Levin Sword+8 move. Shelter also lets you do interesting tactical things like double refreshes. Corrin keeps his Sword rank which is a minor benefit, and picks up Elbow Room early so Cav is like his base class just with more mobility and damage.

Malig Knight is mostly relevant since flying offers a lot of flexibility and helps to complete chapters efficiently. Corrin is one of few that can pull off unrestricted 1-2 range with good durability + flight. Trample just happens to be a really good skill, given how few mounted enemies there are lategame when you get it. Still, it’s really a late thing so it’s not that big a deal. If Malig Knight the class wasn’t so good, like if it was unmounted with low Def base and no doubling 1-2 range, it probably wouldn’t be worth switching into for the skill. It’d be not worth going into Dark Knight if for example your Corrin is too slow to double in it. It is probably worth it if you Corrin is fast but Mag got screwed.

Early Shurikenbreaker would be neat to trivialize Ninjas, especially a certain cave, and is obviously nice for some lategame maps. Worth 4+ levels in Bow Knight with Bronze Bows and Felicia’s Str? Questionable, but I suppose you can snipe fliers with a forge or use Tag-Teams.

12 hours ago, joshcja said:

Most people here discount rigging levelup's because you cannot effectively rig the levelup's on corin/jakob/royals. With any other unit you just walk into join chapter>gain 4-6 levels>soft reset> reload/run with that seed. 100% reliable. Made very fast and painless real-time by the free paragon scroll.

In efficiency you're not trying for balls hard minimal turncount so the rng of forcefeeding Odin is heavily reduced (effectively nill). Most of the LTC RNG comes from forcing that fat fuck to run his fatass off and dodge dodge dodge.

Not much outside of missclicking shrine maiden on a corin reclass can actually affect the efficiency of the clear on ch8/chmozu. That shit run's like clockwork.

Edit: FFS Carmine Doesn't gets Odin 2 levels in a draft on ch8. On hard mode, so there was less exp laying around the place and random levels were a thing. With 3 village, without full deployment, without dropping turns.

I would say rigging is discounted by most here because the idea of “averages” is so ingrained in these types of discussions from the days of FE7-10 (and some older games) tiering discussion on gfaqs/sf and other old fe forums and so on.

Basically people would go into topics and talk about how their Lyn/Amelia/Mia/Nephenee was an amazing unit and arguments ensued. A standard arose that instead of personal experience, which is different for each player, the average stats of a character would be considered, which is more objective. Not that this stopped the flame wars, but this particular idea was mostly agreed upon. The idea of thinking about things that happen on average across a spectrum of playthroughs (binomials for growth procs and such fall in the same category), rather than occurrences that happen rarely or ones that are reset for.

This idea persisted even as player knowledge improved. For example when it was understood gba games have fixed RNG (so “averages” are perhaps not that relevant in reality if everything is reproducible) and bexp/drill grounds allowed easy resets at base camp for good levels.

In more modern days of efficiency oriented discussion, one of the controversies has regarded how unreliable some low(est) turn strategies can be, but I think generally it’s accepted that for tier discussions, improbable things from extremely low bosskill chances, to low survival rates, to stats significantly above average, are not weighed much. Indeed here the op clarifies this, if a little vague (I think purposely to some extent).

I think you mostly know this, so I’m not sure why rigging Odin’s Mag growth is at all relevant. I’m also not sure how Odin is getting so many levels without sacrificing efficiency elsewhere. Post some actual positionings, levels, Mag/Spd/Def stats, etc. It’s not like no one else has even tried using Odin, it’s more that he’s unmounted and doesn’t oneround things so it’s hard to see how he contributes to efficient clears. I don’t think it’s impossible he’s underrated, especially compared to characters like Effie who are so high, if Nosferatu is that good. But compared to other commonly accepted good characters?

Don't assume everyone always knows what you're talking about; tbh your posts are hard to parse sometimes. Again, give some clear numbers for context (or a video!). What level is Odin, how is the combat forecast vs. the enemies, where is he positioned, etc.

Oh and I suppose you can go ahead and open the can of worms that is real-time efficiency, but that’s a complicated discussion.

Edited January 30, 2017 by XeKr

[BANRYU]

2 hours ago, XeKr said:

Usually what skills you get aren’t that important, what matters more is how much out of the way do you go to get them. Basically for Mag paladin the crucial part of the build is just the Levin Sword+8 move. Shelter also lets you do interesting tactical things like double refreshes. Corrin keeps his Sword rank which is a minor benefit, and picks up Elbow Room early so Cav is like his base class just with more mobility and damage.

Malig Knight is mostly relevant since flying offers a lot of flexibility and helps to complete chapters efficiently. Corrin is one of few that can pull off unrestricted 1-2 range with good durability + flight. Trample just happens to be a really good skill, given how few mounted enemies there are lategame when you get it. Still, it’s really a late thing so it’s not that big a deal. If Malig Knight the class wasn’t so good, like if it was unmounted with low Def base and no doubling 1-2 range, it probably wouldn’t be worth switching into for the skill. It’d be not worth going into Dark Knight if for example your Corrin is too slow to double in it. It is probably worth it if you Corrin is fast but Mag got screwed.

Early Shurikenbreaker would be neat to trivialize Ninjas, especially a certain cave, and is obviously nice for some lategame maps. Worth 4+ levels in Bow Knight with Bronze Bows and Felicia’s Str? Questionable, but I suppose you can snipe fliers with a forge or use Tag-Teams.

Okay, that is good to know. Stat growths are actually not something I usually account for when I plot out my reclasses, so that is something I will keep in mind. Thanks! 

Thinking on it more, I'm questioning more and more if Shurikenbreaker is gonna be that worth it. Maybe I'll just do Inspiration for Felicia to pass to Ophy....

[joshcja]

Just go dig up Doesnt's draft run of CH8/mozu. It drops a turn or two because draft and has a lot more rng because hard mode, but it's close enough to the setup. It also features me being wrong about a thing because I do not know hard mode CQ at all.

No Efficiency outside of GBA is a made up category that nobody shares a definition for at all. It's fast casual. No disrespect, my preferred style of play is pretty much "efficiency" by the context of this thread but when nobody agree's on a thing it's not a thing. The OP's definition of efficiency is a purist 7 turn clear if ch12, this is straight up casual play with lotsa ponys. I'll play ball but holy shit that's next level elitism.

Rigging Odins magic growth, boosting his mag outrageously and getting mal aura gives exactly enough damage to ohko a boss room archer with a 7 Mt tome (Nos or +1thunder).

Edit: For absolute clarity rigging in lunatic fates within any exp rich chapter window at a high success clear involves no significant RNG. This is not a case of "my Odin thuper gud cuz roflinvest skillbuy rewardsrewards" this is a case of "every single Odin can reliably attain these stats every single run at an extraordinarily low real time investment and nothing else on every single copy of fates".

Edited January 31, 2017 by joshcja

[Carmine Sword]

But you could just have base Niles with an Arthur pair-up and maybe a strength tonic kill those archers. Might need an HP tonic to take two hits, but what's the point in rigging several levels for Odin to kill the archers when you can just buy tonics and have Niles do it with no RNG involved?

Better question is why I'm continuing to respond to these absurd Odin hype posts but whatever.

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

isn't niles busy looting the rescue staff in virtually every "fast" run through ch8

Edited January 30, 2017 by DoesntKnowHowToPlay

[joshcja]

Nah, if you're allergic to rng Azura can casually dodge a few 90's and trade someone the chest key. It works.

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Edit: Bored now. You are boring. It's sad when a community takes the fun out of shitposting. Went back and edited shit for total clarity.

Assume for one moment that I'm not a complete idiot with narcissistic delusions of grandeur. That you really can get to level 10 in a stricter setting than the OP describes, and that this is documented, that you can safely rig in the strongest rig window in the game with no RNG whatsoever, that the method for this rigging is documented, and that you can somehow scrape up 3k moneys after fucksforsaken ch8.

There is an item units can use at level 10. Imagine if you will the oft dreamed of mythical 8 move pony with 1-2 range and ohko/orko benchmarks on ch9 that does not consume a heart or partner seal and is not routed into the game for any other use. Imagine if this unit was rigged to remain useful for the rest of the game.

I hate this variant of the strat, but yeah. It works, reliably. It's also a complete efficiency meme list so ya'll might actually find it kosher (Early join, rigging, pony, 1-2, early promo).

The ch9 argument is the most extreme possible example of Odin's usefulness. If he can be made useful in that setting he can be considered to be a viable unit in any and all contexts. It has been proven that he can be made useful in ch9 within the strictest possible setting with the horrid abominations known as basic math,  logic, and documented evidence. Odin is viable in any and all contexts. On the next episode of spell-it-out land: birds are good. Units that sweep maps on their own at a 100% CoS are very good in fast-casual play. Stay tuned!

Edited January 31, 2017 by joshcja