I hope that we get an Avatar in this game.

[Augestein]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Same type of personality? lol no. Ike and Hector are absolutely nothing like, say, Marth, Eliwood, and Roy. Chrom is also nothing like them, though he's still more boring for being yet another blue haired sword prince imo.

Hector is still a guy that fights for his friends in the end of the day. Ike is the same way as well. What I'm saying is that you won't have the variance of personality say of say: 

Soren, Serra, Merric, Azel, Odin... When you compare those mages, there's far more differences in personality there than the lords. As in: all of the lords are a play off of the same personality base. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Augestein

[Troykv]

I agree with the idea of Ike being a Spotlight Stealer, Mr. convenience and having pretty much every non-bad/non-Micaiah character in his side almost always.

Ike being the leader of the Greil, was, is and it will be a dumb choice... even in the future (Ike dissappeared forever... taking away with him pretty much all the recognition of his father's group's credit... in the end of the stories... only one name is remember in the far far away times... his name).

Edited April 7, 2017 by Troykv

[a bear]

I love having an avatar, they're fun. Best writing solution is what everyone's saying: have them as one of the regular units whose story involvement is limited. Have players pick their starting class like Kris and your avatar's personality or backstory changes depending on what you've selected. Fighter? Rowdy street rat from the capital. Mage? Know-it-all noble from a foreign land. Wyvern Rider? Loner/defector from the evil wyvern rider empire. Something like that. No special class, no chosen ones, no sacred weapon, no spotlight stealing or heaps of unearned praise. That's what Pokemon's for.

As for kids, just make Bond units a thing between all of your units instead of only other avatars and you've got the gameplay of Kidz Emblem with none of the fuss.

 

fake edit: Ike is in charge because (almost) everyone respects Greil's decisions, even if they don't agree or understand it. Also Greil gets an awful lot of praise in the beginning of PoR for a guy with only two super unimpressive on-screen fights before Volke's infodump.

[GAIDENBRO]

1 hour ago, Augestein said:

By the time any of the other retainers meet, Corrin's already done some stuff. Odin is the only one that has "praise" and that's more so because he's completely insane, and Kaze because Corrin literally saved his life at the beginning of the game. Which is the best reason to say anything good. Saizo certainly doesn't like Corrin, it's even in his supports. 

I'd argue that the main characters themselves could all be written better. All of them are plays on the same type of personality. The only real stand out ones are Ephraim for actually kind of being a warmonger honestly, and that's more of a trait rather than the entirety of his character. The biggest problem with lords is primarily how the world interacts with them. In the case of Ike, there are other things in PoR that stand out more which is why I can forgive the plot a bit more than Fates, but I've always seen the praise of the main characters as a thing in the series. The only time a person really got hi-jacked was Marth in FE12. And that was grating because it took a dump on Marth more than the Kris praise in and of itself. 

Just because you don't like Ike doesn't mean the other lords (really just Kaga's mostly) get blindly praised and doesn't really suffer for their actions.

Alm does stupid stuff that will cost many lives and Celica calls him out on that when they reunite believing they could co-exist. She was most likely right.

Sigurd's overly trusting nature cost him his life. Seliph had to finish what his dad started when he's afraid of war, believed he will never be as good as his father and yet he had no other choice due to the circumstances he and the rest of gen 2 grew up with.

[Refa]

Leaf is also a pretty well done Lord as well.  He's similar to the traditional model but what makes him special IMO is how he reacts to the situations he's put in, especially considering things often don't go his way and his reckless actions do have consequences...probably why he's my favorite Lord overall.

Ironically, I'd find it harder to relate to an avatar Lord because they're not similar enough to me to be a self insert and not developed enough to have those moments that make me think "wow, this character is so cool".  I've always thought of them as a middle road that didn't really satisfy either camp.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hey yo, as long as it's Lord Smackdown time, Ephraim needs to be taken down a bit. He abandons king and country while it's being invaded. The invading country's prince is the greatest foreign friend he's ever had, but this creates no pause for his bloodlust. We never see the moment where he learns of his father's death and that's a huge missed opportunity (he's explicitly unaware during chapter 5x, but learns at some point before the paths diverge in chapter 9). He only cares about siezing Grado keep. And the excuses he gives for his actions are the worst. He never expected to outlive his father, he was never good with books only the lance, he's a man and this is how he thinks men behave. What a damaged little lordling. His sister is the only person showing any compassion for their people, she should have gotten the crown - at least when you pick Eirika's route. The final scene of Ephraim's route is the only moment of compassion for others we see from him. 

Okay rant over. I guess I ultimately want them to try an Avatar again. Normally when something I don't like is in a game, I focus on how it could have been done better. And we've talked a lot about how the Avatars could be better in both plot and gameplay. So they should absolutely try again. Fog of War and Archers have never been done extremely well, doesn't mean I want them to stop trying.

[Augestein]

30 minutes ago, GAIDENBRO said:

Just because you don't like Ike doesn't mean the other lords (really just Kaga's mostly) get blindly praised and doesn't really suffer for their actions.

Alm does stupid stuff that will cost many lives and Celica calls him out on that when they reunite believing they could co-exist. She was most likely right.

Sigurd's overly trusting nature cost him his life. Seliph had to finish what his dad started when he's afraid of war, believed he will never be as good as his father and yet he had no other choice due to the circumstances he and the rest of gen 2 grew up with.

I didn't say that they all don't suffer for their actions. Hector for instance meets a terrible end, and some of that can be linked to his decision to wield Armads. Lyndis almost gets herself screwed over for her actions against the Marquess, Marth has a dump taken on him by Camus in FE3 for instance for his actions. There *are* people that oppose them at moments. This ... Doesn't really tie into what I was saying at all. 

Yes. He does. And that doesn't really change my point either. My point is that praise is given to the lords all of the time. I'll even quote myself from earlier: 

Quote

pretty much all of your allies constantly praise you. 

This is true for all of the lords. No one would want to play as or follow a character that has everyone constantly bashing them. It'd get really tiresome really quickly. Celica having a disagreement with Alm doesn't really matter in this argument, because we're talking about praise and furthermore, she is also a lord. We aren't talking about negatives, as almost all of the lords are met with skepticism or negativity. 

Which... Doesn't really address what I was talking about. My point is that people constantly drone on about how Corrin and Robin and pretty much every avatar is praised to the point of worship when Corrin and Robin aren't even the worst of the lot in terms of lords in the series. And pretty much every lord is praised sans the FE7 ones that I can really think about. The only avatar that really reaches excessive praise levels is Kris and that's primarily because the plot starts underselling Marth to bolster Kris. 

 

21 minutes ago, Refa said:

Leaf is also a pretty well done Lord as well.  He's similar to the traditional model but what makes him special IMO is how he reacts to the situations he's put in, especially considering things often don't go his way and his reckless actions do have consequences...probably why he's my favorite Lord overall.

Ironically, I'd find it harder to relate to an avatar Lord because they're not similar enough to me to be a self insert and not developed enough to have those moments that make me think "wow, this character is so cool".  I've always thought of them as a middle road that didn't really satisfy either camp.

And that's pretty good, as you can appreciate a person with this personality that has his fair share of setbacks, and even start to root for him to hope that he doesn't lose that idealism but becomes grounded enough in reality to not have the terrible situations happen to him anymore or as much. 

Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. Avatars are a strange beast storywise. 

[Sias]

Regarding the general thread question: "Shipping Emblem" sells, so they're going to do their best to appeal to the crowd that gets drawn towards the game by this feature, and I think that the Avatar is probably the least problematic part of that. I'd rather keep some form of player immersion than the almost limitless supports or the wonky child implementation, because honestly, those could have been... better executed in Fates.

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Corrin is praised a lot by the siblings' retainers too before he/she really does anything notable. And the Hoshido siblings save for Takumi praise him/her a lot before he/she does anything of note too.

My point is, I think IS could write avatars a lot better. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of more avatars, but I'd like some that are written better.

 

2 hours ago, Augestein said:

By the time any of the other retainers meet, Corrin's already done some stuff. Odin is the only one that has "praise" and that's more so because he's completely insane, and Kaze because Corrin literally saved his life at the beginning of the game. Which is the best reason to say anything good. Saizo certainly doesn't like Corrin, it's even in his supports. 

I'd argue that the main characters themselves could all be written better. All of them are plays on the same type of personality. The only real stand out ones are Ephraim for actually kind of being a warmonger honestly, and that's more of a trait rather than the entirety of his character. The biggest problem with lords is primarily how the world interacts with them. In the case of Ike, there are other things in PoR that stand out more which is why I can forgive the plot a bit more than Fates, but I've always seen the praise of the main characters as a thing in the series. The only time a person really got hi-jacked was Marth in FE12. And that was grating because it took a dump on Marth more than the Kris praise in and of itself. 

I hope I'm not being rude by just interfering in your discussion, but I agree that the relationship between the protagonist/avatar and the surrounding world/cast is likely the thing they've got to put the most work into. The best basis for a future avatar (assuming they're going to work off what they already have) is imo Robin, simply because I feel that the praise they get is at least mostly deserved? I still would have cut it down a little, but I feel that Kris and Corrin were far worse off nevertheless.

The former mainly suffers form the fact that they hijacked someone else's story after the original was finished and well established already, so they appear like they get credit for the achievement's of other people constantly . Also I feel like Kris' role in the plot wasn't all that well done in general: On the one side they're just some humble normal soldier, but on the other one also Marth's bff and constant advisor? Meh.

Corrin's main problem meanwhile is being praised too much, though not necessarily the way that it happened to other FE protagonists (being an amazing fighter, having the best battle plans, the usual jazz) - the issue is more what I'd like to call indirect praise. We have some across-the-board morality issues in Conquest, where everyone still loves Corrin and his group and treats them as heroes even when they do the most villianous things. More importantly however there's an awful, awful lot of characters whose live almost entirely revolves around Corrin or whose personality is at least majorly influenced by them. Not only do they have more retainers than anyone else, their siblings are also completely obsessed with them - most notably is the obvious Camilla, but we have Hinoka as well, who dedicated her life to fighting and winning back Corrin, and Ryoma, who was jealous of them even when they were toddlers, Elise, whose adores them and wants to play together all the time, and even Takumi, the only one who doesn't instantly love Corrin, is majorly defined by their relationship nevertheless. Other people like Silas, Kaze or Rhajat happily add themselves to the pile, and it goes on and on. Sure, Corrin is supposed to be this super charismatic guy that everyone likes, but the game doesn't show this, and the divergence between what we're told and what we see is one of Fates' major problems in general.

In regards to Robin I don't really have all that much more to say, they're not some kind of amazingly well written character or anything like that, but they're solid and pretty consistant and that's rather good already imo? Sure, it's questionable if the last story arc bringing the focus to them was really necessary, but I mainly chalk that up to Awakening rushing it's plot down in the last two arcs - it would have worked out better had they added a few extra chapters. I'm not sure whether I agree with the sentiment that people are too trusting and accepting towards Robin initially however. When I just go and take a look at the shepherds (the rest of the characters join the army later on anyways and are therefore kind of irrelevant in regards to their feelings about Robin), I see the following:

• Frederick is the obvious example for someone who's mistrusting at first, and that's fine.
• Chrom and Lissa do warm up more quickly, but let's not forget that their initial plan is just to cart Robin to the capital and sort the amnesia business out there/determine whether they're dealing with an ally or foe. The attitude change only appears after battles against the bandits/Risen, and the whole deal about Robin fighting with them, giving strategic advice and risking their life for the cause is sort of justified. Emmeryn fits in here as well, she's the trustworthy type anyways and just accepts Chrom's judgement.
• During the shepherd reception scene, Vaike quickly befriends Robin, and Sumia is welcomig in the same manner (even though she's mostly occupied with Chrom). This fits their personalities in both cases however, so I see no issue here. Kellam doesn't really do anything besides trying to get noticed, but Maribelle is interesting because she has an initially low opinion of Robin after they goof around with Vaike - not really inherent distrust, but at least dislike.
• Stahl arrives a bit later and greets them friendly, but on the other side he's supposed to be the friendly average guy, and their conversation isn't much more than "Hi, I'm Stahl, nice to see you, we have to hurry now" regardless.
• Sully, Virion or Miriel get literally no story dialogue with Robin, so we see no possible interaction.

Sure, it may not be an overwhelming initial front of distrust, but it's not really blind acceptance either, but mostly fitting for the relative characters and sort of deserved after how promptly Robin establishes themselves as an invaluable member to the shepherds.

 

[Augestein]

Oh, I definitely agree that Robin is better implemented plot wise than Corrin, you'll get no argument from me. The issue I'm having is that Corrin's "worship" is not as bad as Ike's for instance, and people just give that a free pass.

I'd say the problem isn't that Corrin is praised (or even indirectly) too much, but rather a problem with world building in Fates. The world literally feels like it didn't come into existence until Corrin came, and every event seems to have *something* to do with Corrin. It's like they saw Chrom and realized this problem with both Ike and Chrom, where neither really matters terribly much for the plot, and so they went into overdrive trying to ensure that Corrin-- the actual lord, was important to the plot. However, what ends up happening is that Corrin is a little bit TOO plot centered on things to the point that even character motivations seem to stem from Corrin. However, the thing is that it doesn't feel like worship, but rather that these characters have nothing better to do with their time because they weren't given diverse enough motivations-- of which I'm blaming the overabundance of royalty characters that literally don't have much of a reason not to join you outside of the fact that you didn't side with their path. 

The war starts from Corrin, Corrin is a blood relative to the main villain, Corrin is siblings with the Hoshidans, Corrin is related to the Nohrians through the kidnapping (with no real explanation for how or why Corrin was there), Corrin has retainers that relate to him Jakob, Gunter, Felicia and Fiora (who admittedly is decently written in the regards that she has better things to do besides Corrin), 3 of the Nohrian retainers are sent for the sole purpose of finding and protecting Corrin, Kaze was supposed to be Corrin's retainer, all of the retainers have some proxy of familiarity with Corrin because (s)he is siblings with all of the royalty Which pretty much leaves Shura, Nyx, Scarlet, Reina, and Yukimaru as the few that seem to have things to do outside of Corrin. There are exceptions like Arthur, Effie, Peri, Azama etc. That don't have some sort of loose connection around Corrin, but most of the characters seem to in the game. 

In terms of character, I'd say Robin is much better handled than Corrin, it's not even a contest. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Augestein

[Topaz Light]

I think that having an Avatar is a much better idea gameplay-wise than it is story-wise, at least the way they've done it as of this writing. The Avatar is allegedly supposed to be a self-insert character, but they're actually just as much a predefined character as any other for the purposes of the main plot; you just get to customize their build as a unit in gameplay, as well as their gender and some purely-cosmetic visual and audio attributes, which, while admittedly fun, is not the same as them being a truly player-defined character. I'd like for them to introduce things like dialogue options and actual plot choices that have real importance if they are to bring the Avatar back, to let you craft who they are as a character, not just as a unit.

I don't actually mind Robin all that much, honestly. Corrin is badly-written, but that's a quality that's far from unique to them within their home game. Mark was totally unobtrusive to me, and I really didn't mind their presence at all. Can't really speak as to Kris's impact on Mystery of the Emblem's writing and story, since I've only played in Japanese (which I can't really read yet), but they might be one of my favorite Avatars gameplay-wise. I appreciated getting to choose their base class, and the optional mid-game bonus appearance traits were a fun touch.

I don't really have much of a stake either way in whether or not FESwitch has an Avatar, or kids for that matter. My own hope is honestly just that the story is written with each of those things in mind if it is to be present, so we don't end up with another thing like the absolutely stupid justification Fates tries to give for having child characters in that game. I actually really like kids as a mechanic, I just want actual, functional plot justification for it like in Genealogy of the Holy War or at least Awakening.

All that said, I'd totally be cool with not having either of those things. Neither of them are even close to being the crux of my enjoyment of the series, so I'm fine either way, just as long as they commit to the direction they pick to go in and do it well.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Topaz Light

[ping]

53 minutes ago, Topaz Light said:

I think that having an Avatar is a much better idea gameplay-wise than it is story-wise, at least the way they've done it as of this writing. The Avatar is allegedly supposed to be a self-insert character, but they're actually just as much a predefined character as any other for the purposes of the main plot; you just get to customize their build as a unit in gameplay, as well as their gender and some purely-cosmetic visual and audio attributes, which, while admittedly fun, is not the same as them being a truly player-defined character. I'd like for them to introduce things like dialogue options and actual plot choices that have real importance if they are to bring the Avatar back, to let you craft who they are as a character, not just as a unit.

I can completely sign that. I don't think it would be a gross exaggeration to say that there hasn't been an actual Avatar in the Fire Emblem series, just a few characters that are highly customizable in term of gameplay and appearance. But as far as the story is concerned, none of them actually allows the player to interact with the world in any meaningful way. (Well, I guess that it's meaningful for Shura how much the player values boots :D But the overall story progresses the same whether or not you decide to kill him) Even the whole married-with-children business isn't unique to Robin and Corrin; they just have more support options and an own child even when they have the "wrong" gender for it.

[Baldrick]

I think an Avatar shouldn't be based on having a large contribution to the plot, but how they represent the player as a tactician. After all, the core gameplay of "move your dudes around a map to kill red dudes" has been the same throughout the series.

For the next game, make another Mark (if they must be playable, be a support-oriented unit) and give the player control over the gameplay and some tactical decisions only. Aim for one coherent plot over many incoherent ones.

[NekoKnight]

6 hours ago, Augestein said:

Hector is still a guy that fights for his friends in the end of the day. Ike is the same way as well. What I'm saying is that you won't have the variance of personality say of say: 

Soren, Serra, Merric, Azel, Odin... When you compare those mages, there's far more differences in personality there than the lords. As in: all of the lords are a play off of the same personality base. 

"Cares about their friends" is a trait shared by billions of people, and yet we wouldn't call them all the same. The reason why there is not as much variance as the mages is you need some basic charisma/normalcy to be the leader of an large group of people. Who would want to be in an army run by Serra or Odin?

[Augestein]

2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

"Cares about their friends" is a trait shared by billions of people, and yet we wouldn't call them all the same. The reason why there is not as much variance as the mages is you need some basic charisma/normalcy to be the leader of an large group of people. Who would want to be in an army run by Serra or Odin?

Sure. But that still doesn't address that the lords still stem from a basic form of personality.There's still not that much variance. You can be different and still have normalcy. Honestly, this comment just made me think of something, probably the biggest reason that people dislike Corrin so much in Conquest and to a certain extent, Revelations: that basic lord personality doesn't work as well in the context we are given, the game expects you to believe that Corrin is all of the basic lord traits, but because of the way the story goes, ends up demonstrating different traits such as selfishness instead of selflessness, cowardice instead of bravery, a preference to a group of people -- instead of just going with the vanilla lord "everyone is equal" mentality... etc. We end up with a character that's just a mess because they aren't entirely what  the game wishes us to believe. 

And what I mean here, is that you'd never have a lord behave like say... Farina, a woman that is willing to help people, but only for a price. You'd never have a lord like Aria where she'd happily slaughter people to save her brother (okay, so I'll admit Corrin definitely does this but the story seems to be under the impression that (s)he wouldn't)-- these are the types of characters and personalities that are saved by your lord.  A lord character would never do things like that. And honestly the "who would want to be in an army run by Serra or Odin?" I don't know, because Odin doesn't seem incompetent, just... A little off. Serra I wouldn't on the account that she's kind of self-absorbed. Not necessarily selfish, but just extraordinarily vain. Of course all types of personalities aren't going to be fit for a lord, but that doesn't mean that they all need to be so close. 

[Anacybele]

9 hours ago, Troykv said:

I agree with the idea of Ike being a Spotlight Stealer, Mr. convenience and having pretty much every non-bad/non-Micaiah character in his side almost always.

Ike being the leader of the Greil, was, is and it will be a dumb choice... even in the future (Ike dissappeared forever... taking away with him pretty much all the recognition of his father's group's credit... in the end of the stories... only one name is remember in the far far away times... his name).

I disagree with this too. Ike did not steal any spotlight, that was Yune. Literally! She took over Micaiah's body and did all her talking and stuff for her. Ike just happened to benefit from it in the end. There should've been less Yune possession and more actual Micaiah.

However, Ike's ending is pretty shitty.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Anacybele

[Salamud]

8 hours ago, Augestein said:

Oh, I definitely agree that Robin is better implemented plot wise than Corrin, you'll get no argument from me. The issue I'm having is that Corrin's "worship" is not as bad as Ike's for instance, and people just give that a free pass.

I'd say the problem isn't that Corrin is praised (or even indirectly) too much, but rather a problem with world building in Fates. The world literally feels like it didn't come into existence until Corrin came, and every event seems to have *something* to do with Corrin. It's like they saw Chrom and realized this problem with both Ike and Chrom, where neither really matters terribly much for the plot, and so they went into overdrive trying to ensure that Corrin-- the actual lord, was important to the plot. However, what ends up happening is that Corrin is a little bit TOO plot centered on things to the point that even character motivations seem to stem from Corrin. However, the thing is that it doesn't feel like worship, but rather that these characters have nothing better to do with their time because they weren't given diverse enough motivations-- of which I'm blaming the overabundance of royalty characters that literally don't have much of a reason not to join you outside of the fact that you didn't side with their path. 

The war starts from Corrin, Corrin is a blood relative to the main villain, Corrin is siblings with the Hoshidans, Corrin is related to the Nohrians through the kidnapping (with no real explanation for how or why Corrin was there), Corrin has retainers that relate to him Jakob, Gunter, Felicia and Fiora (who admittedly is decently written in the regards that she has better things to do besides Corrin), 3 of the Nohrian retainers are sent for the sole purpose of finding and protecting Corrin, Kaze was supposed to be Corrin's retainer, all of the retainers have some proxy of familiarity with Corrin because (s)he is siblings with all of the royalty Which pretty much leaves Shura, Nyx, Scarlet, Reina, and Yukimaru as the few that seem to have things to do outside of Corrin. There are exceptions like Arthur, Effie, Peri, Azama etc. That don't have some sort of loose connection around Corrin, but most of the characters seem to in the game. 

In terms of character, I'd say Robin is much better handled than Corrin, it's not even a contest. 

The worse worldbuilding you're calling out goes back to how Awakening and Fates revolve their narratives around the Avatars. Past FEs framed themselves as less being about the Lords so much as the events the Lords take part in.

[Augestein]

32 minutes ago, Salamud said:

The worse worldbuilding you're calling out goes back to how Awakening and Fates revolve their narratives around the Avatars. Past FEs framed themselves as less being about the Lords so much as the events the Lords take part in.

But it's not worship. And Awakening world  building isn't that bad.  It's not stand out I'll admit, but it's definitely there.

[Dragonage2ftw]

13 hours ago, NoirCore said:

Care to elaborate on why children were the "best part" of the new FE games, especially since in Awakening, they were broken to a point of unbalanced overpoweredness, and in Fates, they were practically shoved in so horrendously to the plot with the Deeprealms making everyone dimwit parents that the children may as well not be there at all and nothing different would happen in the plot?

Also, what "good stuff" are you talking about? I don't see how Echoes is "gonna suck", especially since there are actually notable differences, like stamina, supports (oh, that's one of the good stuff, just from an older style!), and the rewind feature. And that's to name a few.

Good stuff like Avatars, Children, and S-Ranks.

 

Children rock because you get total confirmation that you bang your waifu's. None of that cut to black shit. Also, from a gameplay standpoint, it's great, because it encourages minmaxing and other great things.

[redlight]

1 hour ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

Good stuff like Avatars, Children, and S-Ranks.

 

Children rock because you get total confirmation that you bang your waifu's. None of that cut to black shit. Also, from a gameplay standpoint, it's great, because it encourages minmaxing and other great things.

Let's not start a children debate here.

I hope that the avatar would offer support to the other characters, rather than leading them, a sort of friend you can talk to about their problems. He'd be a soldier under the lord's army just like the rest of the non-necessary units (like in Awakening, where you never had to deploy Robin, except in chapters surrounding him). For some reason I want the central characters (the lord and avatar) to wield unorthodox weapons meant for main characters like an axe, spear or bow. If daggers are coming back, then even that.

Edited April 7, 2017 by silveraura25

[NoirCore]

1 hour ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

Good stuff like Avatars, Children, and S-Ranks.

 

Children rock because you get total confirmation that you bang your waifu's. None of that cut to black shit. Also, from a gameplay standpoint, it's great, because it encourages minmaxing and other great things.

That's debatable. ESPECIALLY the children and S-ranks, as again, they only caused more controversy and division.

And there's plenty of people that would prefer there not have been children in Fates. There wasn't really much reason to throw them in other than for poorly-excused fanservice that blatantly defies the logic of time and the plot, and that was pretty bad. It's interesting to experiment with stats, but that was Awakening's gimmick. Fates didn't need it.

I'll be blunt: your brief, unpopular statements and lack of defensive elaboration on such statements are really making me think you're trolling here.

[Interdimensional Observer]

A problem I find with the kids, beyond being shoehorned in, is that their customization can be kinda superfluous. You can pass down two skills- which is nice, particularly if they're from classes they cannot/you won't be sending them through or that comes late. The hair color is also a nice touch.

The caps however, matter only for the postgame, and probably won't even be reached until the very end if ever of 13 or 14. Loads of classes is nice, but sans a grind, you won't be getting too many of the good skills they offer for a kid. Also, E rank hell can make ingame use of said class abundance difficult, particularly in FE13 and especially for Brady and Yarne. 

Growths? Sure the difference by 20/20 between a Effie and Beruka child will be 6 Str (15%), but you can't turn Ophelia into a top notch Berserker even with Effie- the children's' base growths limit their elasticity (Ophelia's 15% Str in this case- 32.5% with Effie is still bad). Also, in Awakening, a parent contributes only a third of their growths to their child, which is painfully small and hardly makes that much of a difference unless it's night and day between a child's growth and the parent's for a given stat.

[Etrurian emperor]

20 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Same type of personality? lol no. Ike and Hector are absolutely nothing like, say, Marth, Eliwood, and Roy. Chrom is also nothing like them, though he's still more boring for being yet another blue haired sword prince imo.

Female lords definitely could be written better though. I dislike all of them (save for Celica because I've not played her game) because they end up uninteresting and overshadowed by the males every time.

Ike and Hector indeed aren't like Marth and Eliwood but they are a lot like each other(by design I might add) while Eliwood in turn is very similar to Marth. 

Not every lord is the same but you can roughly sort all the lords in three archtypes.

Ike and Hector are clearly meant to be the gruff ones who start out as fight first and lead second type of characters. You could argue Chrom and even Ephrain can land in this type as well. 

Eliwood and Marth are both gentle souls who'd prefer never to hurt a fly. Eirika is a bit like that as well. 

Seliph and Siegbert(if you count him) are more shy and insecure examples of the type Marth and Eliwood belong to. 

[Etrurian emperor]

On 6-4-2017 at 8:56 PM, Dragonage2ftw said:

I disagree.

 

Children are one of the best parts of newer FE games.

 

It's part of why Echoes is gonna suck. They only tweaked it a little. They didn't add in any of the good stuff from newer entries.

I can sort of understand why not having kids can be seen as a step back. 

On the other hand Fates also showed that its downright damaging to include kids if you don't have a good reason for it. The fates children are damaged by the nonsense that is their origins and that ends up dragging down great characters. I love Siegbert, Forrest is arguably the best Lucius, Percy is Pit which can hardly get any better and Kiragi makes me smile. Yet that all is lessened because its very hard to view these characters as canon, in fact those characters themselves are left with far more dignity if you don't view their inclusion as canon and that's a big shame. 

[Anomalocaris]

I've said this before, but in terms of the avatar's involvement in the story, I think Valm-arc Robin is a good standard. They have their moments of importance, like setting boats on fire to appease Frederick's pyromania, but for the most part they're just a background character to what's going on with Chrom and Lucina. A shoulder for the main protagonist(s) to lean on when needed.

Someone mentioned the avatar from Xenoblade Chronicles X, and I think that's a good implementation that could work for Fire Emblem, aside from being mute.

[Interdimensional Observer]

@Etrurian emperor I pretty much came to the same conclusion as you on the different types of MCs independently. I call them: Warriors at Heart, Pretty Boys, and Female (sorry ladies- you ain't distinct enough to warrant a division). 

I used attach the word "Perfect" to the Pretty Boys before, but I feel that is unnecessary now. As the Warriors At Heart and the Pretty Boys are capable of being perfect or imperfect. Eliwood and Leif (so I've heard) are imperfect Pretty Boys. Hector and Sigurd are imperfect WaHs. Ike is perfect- and he is a total Warrior at Heart, and the perfect Seliph is a total Pretty Boy. Only the females lack perfection- Micaiah isn't perfect at the end of Part 1, and at all in 3, Lyn can't be perfect because Mark, Eirika is stoned out of perfection, and Robin/Corrin can be male. Unless Celica is perfect, no female lord is.

Chrom is both regal like a Pretty Boy, and muscular like a Warrior At Heart- he straddles the categories. Leaning towards the former in plot, and the latter in gameplay.