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What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

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10 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The Blue Lions seem like the most popular route so I think it would be an unpopular opinion to say that probably have the worst ending and the weakest philosophy.  I'm sure Dimitri would do his best and ease a lot of burdens in his rule since he's a nice guy but overall the situation stays relatively close to the status quo. Dimitri doesn't abolish an oppressive cast system like Edelgard nor does he become an open border liberal like Claude. ''We must defend the present for its all we have'' sounds very...unambitious compared to the more far reaching dreams of Claude and Edelgard. 

But worst of all is that its the only route where the Slitherers aren't destroyed or even discovered. Dimitri can't fix a problem he has no idea exists. Even if Dimitri arranges for a happy ending to those within his own lifespawn there's nothing stopping the Slitherers from just nuking Fhirdiad and getting up to all sorts of devilry in the coming generations. 

While Edelgard's accomplishments are grander, I think they're completely unbelievable. Abolishing the church and the value of crests in society was already a tall order but to get rid of the nobility in such a short time across several countries would be borderline impossible. Why should all the people who are elevated by their birthright want to support Edelgard? Look at what happened to Lambert after trying to enact some societal changes that the nobility didn't like. I'm sure it was less radical than stripping the social elite of their power like Edelgard did.

Dimitri's leadership might be seen as less ambitious but it's a lot more realistic.

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@NekoKnight

CF epilogues has her reopen the church and give the corrupt noble families there land and money back. All under Imperial control. All she really changed was free college. That won't help normal people as much as she thinks. Because the nobles are super human and are bred for education. Plus the lose of the continents police force that stop bandits in the knights of Seiros. CF has a very rushed epilogue. For the countries she conquers and kills the noble families relatives it's completely unbelievable they be fine with the lose of there country.

Edited by Julian Solo
Didn't mean to post yet.

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On 10/16/2019 at 10:05 AM, Kai the glove eating night said:

(snip)

Try not to cut yourself on that edge there.

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

While Edelgard's accomplishments are grander, I think they're completely unbelievable. Abolishing the church and the value of crests in society was already a tall order but to get rid of the nobility in such a short time across several countries would be borderline impossible. Why should all the people who are elevated by their birthright want to support Edelgard? Look at what happened to Lambert after trying to enact some societal changes that the nobility didn't like. I'm sure it was less radical than stripping the social elite of their power like Edelgard did.

Dimitri's leadership might be seen as less ambitious but it's a lot more realistic.

How realistic do you think Claude's story is?  Personally. . .

Spoiler

it's a nice sentiment, but I doubt it pans out the way he wants it to.  Racism's not something that ends overnight, if RL history is any indication.  And abolishing borders on top of that?  Uh, good luck with that.

 

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30 minutes ago, eclipse said:
Spoiler

it's a nice sentiment, but I doubt it pans out the way he wants it to.  Racism's not something that ends overnight, if RL history is any indication.  And abolishing borders on top of that?  Uh, good luck with that.

 

Golden Deer spoilers.

Spoiler

In addition to that, you yourself help repel an Almyran attack on the locket only a few years prior. Even though Cyril says "oh jk guys they weren't really serious about it", I find that hard to ignore. 

It would help if we knew a bit more about Almyra other than their tendency to try to invade Fódlan.

 

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11 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

While Edelgard's accomplishments are grander, I think they're completely unbelievable. Abolishing the church and the value of crests in society was already a tall order but to get rid of the nobility in such a short time across several countries would be borderline impossible. Why should all the people who are elevated by their birthright want to support Edelgard? Look at what happened to Lambert after trying to enact some societal changes that the nobility didn't like. I'm sure it was less radical than stripping the social elite of their power like Edelgard did.

Glancing over this reminds me of Joseph II of the Holy Roman Empire. He was a real world case of a "radical" reformist early modern monarch.

He plunged himself into various goals, including: expanding freedom of press, religious tolerance, improving the lot of the peasantry (partly for the sake of cutting back on their rebellions), and reforming (or destroying) the Holy Roman Empire through modern governmental centralization. He wasn't perfect, he, in his workaholic desire to know everything about his realm, established a secret police, I think.

But, his well-intentioned reforms at a breakneck pace met disaster against the traditional institutions of the nobility and clergy in the HRE. They turned against him and stymied his efforts everywhere. The Hungarian Magyar nobles in his Hapsburg Empire (separate from his German HRE) were far too stubborn and selfish to enact any reforms, and so their peasants revolted. Whatever he got done, was left incomplete.

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11 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Glancing over this reminds me of Joseph II of the Holy Roman Empire. He was a real world case of a "radical" reformist early modern monarch.

He plunged himself into various goals, including: expanding freedom of press, religious tolerance, improving the lot of the peasantry (partly for the sake of cutting back on their rebellions), and reforming (or destroying) the Holy Roman Empire through modern governmental centralization. He wasn't perfect, he, in his workaholic desire to know everything about his realm, established a secret police, I think.

But, his well-intentioned reforms at a breakneck pace met disaster against the traditional institutions of the nobility and clergy in the HRE. They turned against him and stymied his efforts everywhere. The Hungarian Magyar nobles in his Hapsburg Empire (separate from his German HRE) were far too stubborn and selfish to enact any reforms, and so their peasants revolted. Whatever he got done, was left incomplete.

Speaking of historical examples of similar movements, I often think about the imperial restoration of Japan and the abolition of the caste system. Japan had an interesting revolution in that it was lead by the social elites (samurai) rather than the lower classes. Japan's case was special, however, because they were a feudal agrarian society now realizing how hopelessly outclassed they were by their hungry, imperialist neighbors. It was in their best interest to discard their previous birthrights in order to build a stronger nation. I don't really see why anyone serving Edelgard would share her interest in a meritocracy. What do they have to gain?

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About the endings of 3 Houses:

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
1
Spoiler

I feel that they're too idealistic; wanting a "they lived happily ever after just cause" theme regardless of route. I don't think that the people of Fódlan and its institutions cannot change within a generation.  The continent of 3 Houses is not a world where things are sunshine and rainbows; the endings should reflect that.

Dimitri's mental issues are never really addressed mentally after his second big turn. for some reason because the writers realized they have to end the story on a high without it being a golden route and thus must erase Rhea from the plot and TWSITD just exit out by accident basically.  As for Edelgard even if she achieves success in the short term, she's essentially herded a bunch of nobles together who will invariably do the same things that started her down the path. She's bought who knows how many years of peace through a large amount of blood. If she fails, she's essentially exacerbated nationalistic tensions, even if a strong figurehead shows up to unite the countries together again, they will face the same problems that Edelgard would if she won; eventually that leader will die or just not be able to hold everyone back.

In Claude 's case, what is he going to do? Fly across Fodlan and Almyra with a megaphone saying that discrimination is bad? In most of the endings, he leaves Fodlan to figure out things out themselves.

It kind of undersells and oversells Edelgard in a way, because on one hand, it means you don't need Edelgard to lead, yet the war always makes a better Fodlan so what is the game trying to say? That each route is good and everyone succeeds?

 

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My unpopular opinion: The dragons in FE are super cool and don't have their potential tapped into as much as they should (not to say I don't understand why people aren't the most fond of them; having them for the antagonists for the majority of the games gets old, but hence why I wish they had more put into them than just villains.)

Edited by Jenneta

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19 minutes ago, Jenneta said:

My unpopular opinion: The dragons in FE are super cool and don't have their potential tapped into as much as they should (not to say I don't understand why people aren't the most fond of them; having them for the antagonists for the majority of the games gets old, but hence why I wish they had more put into them than just villains.)

Agreed 100%
I love dragons and the common lore threads that characterize many of them in Fire Emblem (immortal creatures that eventually go crazy with age/their own power that seal their power in special stones, and can take on human forms) is really cool. What we need less of, in my opinion, is "humans in the ancient past go to war with dragonkind and wipe out most of them" and "I'm going to wipe out all humanity because I'm craaaaazy" dragon antagonists. I'd rather see them thriving and exploring how dragon societies function, including their relations with the humans in the story. We get a bit of this from Tellius but as they're isolationists, we don't learn a lot.

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1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

Speaking of historical examples of similar movements, I often think about the imperial restoration of Japan and the abolition of the caste system. Japan had an interesting revolution in that it was lead by the social elites (samurai) rather than the lower classes. Japan's case was special, however, because they were a feudal agrarian society now realizing how hopelessly outclassed they were by their hungry, imperialist neighbors. It was in their best interest to discard their previous birthrights in order to build a stronger nation. I don't really see why anyone serving Edelgard would share her interest in a meritocracy. What do they have to gain?

From what I remember in my readings, within the samurai class, those who ultimately led the Meiji Restoration were not those who proposed the most under the Tokugawa Shogunate. Although old and loyal Tokugawa officials certainly did try to modernize, the victory of the Emperor was the victory of the "out group" of nobility.

The Tokugawa regime had established a divide in the nobility, centered primarily around which side your family was on at the Battle of Sekigahara, the battle which firmly brought Ieyasu and his family into power for the centuries to follow.:

  • If your family sided with him before the battle Sekigahara was over, you were a Fudai samurai lord (daimyo).
  • If your family sided against Ieyasu at Sekigahara, you were a Tozama daimyo.

The Fudai for generations were the favored lot of the samurai, being reserved the highest governmental offices. The Tozama were on the other hand kept out of those high offices, which built up hundreds of years of resentment, despite some still having large fiefs, and in the case of the Shimazu family, a powerful foreign policy position. 

When the Shogunate began to feel pressured from Western powers, the Shogun, perhaps "accidentally", asked the figurehead Emperor for advice on policy. This gradually opened the door to the possibility of rule of Japan under the Emperor instead of the Shogun. And many Tozama, led by the Shimazu clan and their samurai minions from Satsuma Domain, thus rallied under the Emperor's banner. Although samurai of all stripes did yield to the Emperor's rule and accept modern peerage and stipends, the Tozama (and the pre-Meiji Japanese nobility from Kyoto) for a time did dominate Japanese government.

 

Perhaps, to bring this back to FE, this would have helped Edelgard in your case. Having an "out group" wanting for power, it can be dissatisfied nobles, or an entirely separate class altogether, would make her more realistic. "Meritocracy" then becomes power largely by those who have been denied it. Intraclass or interclass conflict can be exploited in the pursuit of an individual's ambition.

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2 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Agreed 100%
I love dragons and the common lore threads that characterize many of them in Fire Emblem (immortal creatures that eventually go crazy with age/their own power that seal their power in special stones, and can take on human forms) is really cool. What we need less of, in my opinion, is "humans in the ancient past go to war with dragonkind and wipe out most of them" and "I'm going to wipe out all humanity because I'm craaaaazy" dragon antagonists. I'd rather see them thriving and exploring how dragon societies function, including their relations with the humans in the story. We get a bit of this from Tellius but as they're isolationists, we don't learn a lot.

I really hate that trope a lot. Why fabtasy writers love so much the idea of super powered race getting almost wiped out by puny humans? Ir's not like they are less intelligent. Both the FE stories i am thinking on have Dragons as the most powerful political force on the continent.

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Honestly on the topic of dragon wars and such in FE. I kinda wanna see them take a fairy tail esque spin on it. Say what you will about Fairy tail but it had some really cool ideas. Like the idea of a dragon civil war for if they should live with humans or above them as a superior species. It’s an even battle until humans are brought into the war and create a horrific outcome neither side was prepared for with the complete eradication of the dragon race by the dragon king who rose to prominence at the height of the civil war. It’s a really cool idea and I’d like to see something like it implemented into an FE story cause fairy tail kinda goes no where with it because Mashima is kind of a hack writer.

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59 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Honestly on the topic of dragon wars and such in FE. I kinda wanna see them take a fairy tail esque spin on it. Say what you will about Fairy tail but it had some really cool ideas. Like the idea of a dragon civil war for if they should live with humans or above them as a superior species. It’s an even battle until humans are brought into the war and create a horrific outcome neither side was prepared for with the complete eradication of the dragon race by the dragon king who rose to prominence at the height of the civil war. It’s a really cool idea and I’d like to see something like it implemented into an FE story cause fairy tail kinda goes no where with it because Mashima is kind of a hack writer.

Fire Emblem's idea of dragons is they start out as a superior species, but eventually the world can't handle them anymore or the gods punished them depending on POV, resulting in dragons having to take on a weaker form and ultimately cede the world to humans.

4 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Agreed 100%
I love dragons and the common lore threads that characterize many of them in Fire Emblem (immortal creatures that eventually go crazy with age/their own power that seal their power in special stones, and can take on human forms) is really cool. What we need less of, in my opinion, is "humans in the ancient past go to war with dragonkind and wipe out most of them" and "I'm going to wipe out all humanity because I'm craaaaazy" dragon antagonists. I'd rather see them thriving and exploring how dragon societies function, including their relations with the humans in the story. We get a bit of this from Tellius but as they're isolationists, we don't learn a lot.

The age thing is more Fates.

In Archanea, its made clear degeneration was something that just hit dragons as a whole, young and old, out of nowhere one day.

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

I really hate that trope a lot. Why fabtasy writers love so much the idea of super powered race getting almost wiped out by puny humans? Ir's not like they are less intelligent. Both the FE stories i am thinking on have Dragons as the most powerful political force on the continent.

Dolhr was the most powerful political force in Shadow Dragon, though it didn't last.

Edited by Emperor Hardin

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On 10/17/2019 at 10:45 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

The Blue Lions seem like the most popular route so I think it would be an unpopular opinion to say that probably have the worst ending and the weakest philosophy.  I'm sure Dimitri would do his best and ease a lot of burdens in his rule since he's a nice guy but overall the situation stays relatively close to the status quo. Dimitri doesn't abolish an oppressive cast system like Edelgard nor does he become an open border liberal like Claude. ''We must defend the present for its all we have'' sounds very...unambitious compared to the more far reaching dreams of Claude and Edelgard. 

But worst of all is that its the only route where the Slitherers aren't destroyed or even discovered. Dimitri can't fix a problem he has no idea exists. Even if Dimitri arranges for a happy ending to those within his own lifespawn there's nothing stopping the Slitherers from just nuking Fhirdiad and getting up to all sorts of devilry in the coming generations. 

Bonus round: Where Edelgard and Claude reunify Fodlan, Dimitri just straight up conquers it. The end result is called Faerghus, it's very clear that Adrestia and Leicester are reduced to vassalhood (there's no indication Duscur regains its freedom either). This makes a lot of sense when you recall that Faerghus is repeatedly referred to as a freezing shit hole  and that all of the good agricultural land defected to Leicester.

Dimitri's "True King" nonsense is absolutely ridiculous. If we follow Dimitri's "war is bad for any reason" philosophy then Dimitri wouldn't be king at all - he'd be Duke Blaiddyd, serving under Edelgard, because the Adrestian Emperor is the only one who can actually claim divine right. Divine right is a farce and Edelgard would slap anyone who would try to make that argument, but the point is that Dimitri does not have a leg to stand on and frankly he should have stepped down as king after the shit he pulls in his route.

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1 hour ago, Arachnofiend said:

Bonus round: Where Edelgard and Claude reunify Fodlan, Dimitri just straight up conquers it. The end result is called Faerghus, it's very clear that Adrestia and Leicester are reduced to vassalhood (there's no indication Duscur regains its freedom either). This makes a lot of sense when you recall that Faerghus is repeatedly referred to as a freezing shit hole  and that all of the good agricultural land defected to Leicester.

Dimitri's "True King" nonsense is absolutely ridiculous. If we follow Dimitri's "war is bad for any reason" philosophy then Dimitri wouldn't be king at all - he'd be Duke Blaiddyd, serving under Edelgard, because the Adrestian Emperor is the only one who can actually claim divine right. Divine right is a farce and Edelgard would slap anyone who would try to make that argument, but the point is that Dimitri does not have a leg to stand on and frankly he should have stepped down as king after the shit he pulls in his route.

What divine right? Loog was anointed as King after he beat Adrestia in a civil war. What on Earth are you talking about? The only person who was actually chosen by God is Byleth. Dedous paired endings say other wise about Duscur. The Alliance voted to join the Kingdom because of Byleth and if they got saved from the empire. Dimitri tried several times not to conquer the empire. This idea Dimitri is secretly an imperialist like Edelgard that I see thrown around on social media is asinine. 

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Dimitri is referred to as the "True King of Fodlan" multiple times, by Gilbert in his S support for an easy to find example. This is a lie for the exact reason you said - Faerghus only exists because they won a civil war, which is an action that presumably Dimitri would consider to be Morally Wrong. The Alliance joined the Kingdom because their military had been crippled by Dimitri and were forced to capitulate to him by those circumstances, it was either let Faerghus take over or get overrun by the Empire.

Dedue's endings do not give any indication Duscur gets its independence back. All that's referenced is "reconciliation" - as in, they now receive rights as citizens of Faerghus but they're still a minority within the kingdom. I don't claim that Dimitri isn't genuine in his desire to reconcile, but I also think it's clear that he doesn't intend to do anything beyond that.

Edited by Arachnofiend

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10 minutes ago, Arachnofiend said:

Dimitri is referred to as the "True King of Fodlan" multiple times, by Gilbert in his S support for an easy to find example. This is a lie for the exact reason you said - Faerghus only exists because they won a civil war, which is an action that presumably Dimitri would consider to be Morally Wrong. The Alliance joined the Kingdom because their military had been crippled by Dimitri and were forced to capitulate to him by those circumstances, it was either let Faerghus take over or get overrun by the Empire.

Dedue's endings do not give any indication Duscur gets its independence back. All that's referenced is "reconciliation" - as in, they now receive rights as citizens of Faerghus but they're still a minority within the kingdom. I don't claim that Dimitri isn't genuine in his desire to reconcile, but I also think it's clear that he doesn't intend to do anything beyond that.

Yeah and the empire in a three way battle no who could tell who was who from the dialgue. Dimitri then saved them from Arundel. That's not the same as hostile conquest. Gilbert isn't Dimitri and is totally biased scource as he was from the kingdom and the church. Who Cornelia and the empire make an even bigger disaster out of. Also from Dedou x Mercedes they do in fact rebuild Duscur and reclaim it for there people. Petra also gets Brigid back in her default ending.

 

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Not ever once Dimitri employ any argument of legitimacy over Adredtia. If Gilbert does it it's his opinion and his alone. And we are told very little about how any of the endgame kingdoms are organized, only that golden age crap because according to intsys you should never feel bad about your decision. 

Also the difference between Loog and Edelgard is that Loog fought againist a tyrant, while, as far as Faerghus is concerned, Edelgard is the tyrant. If a foreign country try to conquest you claiming it's for the greater good you still have a right to defend yourself, and to declaw the enemy completely if necessary.

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