General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Diovani Bressan]

11 hours ago, Etheus said:

Hawkeye
Tomahawk

Effect - 16 Mt. Distant Counter

Weapon Refinery - None

Anna

Noatun

Weapon Refinery - HP + 3, Escape Route 3 (From Escape Route 2), Fury 3

Alphonse

Folkvangr

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Defiant Attack 3 (from Defiant Attack 2), Brash Assault

Shareena

Fensalir

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Threaten Attack 3 (from Threaten Attack 2), Threaten Defence 3

Virion

Longbow

Effect - 14 Mt. Unit can attack from 3 spaces away, but cannot counterattack. 

Refinery - HP + 3. Death Blow 3

Titania

Urvan

Effect - 16 Mt. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). If unit receives consecutive attacks, damage from second attack onward reduced by 80%.

Refinery - None

Robin

Grima's Bane

Effect - 14 Mt. Effective against Dragons.

Refinery - HP +3. Grants Weapon Advantage against Colorless Foes

Jakob

Jakob's Dagger

Effect - 14 Mt. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. Pulsing Blow (when unit initiates combat, allies within 2 spaces gain Special Cooldown Charge +1; does not apply to unit). 

Refinery - HP + 3. Guard 3. 

Corrin (Male)

Yato

Refinery - HP +3. Darting Blow 3 (From Darting Blow 2). Death Blow 3.

Niles

Niles' Bow

Effect - Mt 14. Accelerates Special Trigger (Cooldown Count -1). 

Refinery - HP +3. Enchanted Blade 3 (If unit's Res - Foe's Res is greater than or equal to 1, unit gains Special cooldown charge +1 per attack. If using other similar skill, only highest value applied). 

Innes

Nidhogg

Refinery - HP +3, Distant Def 3

Saizo

Flame Shuriken

Effect - Mt 14. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. Accelerates special trigger (Cooldown Count -1). 

Refinery - HP +3. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts status on target and foes within 2 spaces of target preventing counterattacks through their next actions.

Seth

Paragon Blade

Effect - Mt 16. At start of turn, allies at or below 50% HP (not including unit) gain +3 to all stats through their next actions regardless of distance. 

Refinery - HP +3. Aggressive Strategy (for allies within 2 spaces, if ally's movement type is different from unit's movement type, ally gains Spd/Atk +4 during combat). 

 

The Defiant Attack in Alfonse's Sword should become a Blazen skill, like Brazen Atk/Def 3.

I like the idea of Threaten Atk/Def 3 on Sharena's Fensalir. They could od it, or maybe Threaten Atk/Def/Spd/Res 2, as a reversed Marth's Falchion.

Anna could receive the Warp Powder effect on her Nóatún or change the effect completely.

I am not sure about Longbow be in the game... Titania having Urvan is a little weird. I don't remeber if she can use it in the main games, because I never finished Radiant Dawn.

I liked Grima's bane,. Not sure about Jakob's Pulsing Blow.

I like your idea of Corrin chnaging the Darting Blow 2 effect for Swift Sparrow.

Flame Shuriken, in Fates, is a magic weapon. I can see it receiving the same effect of Felicia's Plate.

And for Seth... "allies at or below 50% HP (not including unit) gain +3 to all stats through their next actions regardless of distance." is too much. Nope for the amount of stats boost, but the "regardless of distance" part. I would say in 2 spaces from Seth.

[redlight]

@Diovani Bressan She can use Urvan, but I'm really unsure of her wielding Ike's version of Urvan in Heroes since it's meant for a tanky unit like B!Ike

[Diovani Bressan]

11 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

@Diovani Bressan She can use Urvan, but I'm really unsure of her wielding Ike's version of Urvan in Heroes since it's meant for a tanky unit like B!Ike

Ok, I didn't know about it.

[Fabulously Olivier]

15 hours ago, Etheus said:

Hawkeye
Berserk Tomahawk

Effect - 16 Mt. Unit can initiate combat from 1 or 2 spaces away, but can only counter at melee range. Slows Special Trigger (Cooldown Count +1). 

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Brash Assault 3

 

Anna

Noatun

Weapon Refinery - HP + 3, Escape Route 3 (From Escape Route 2)

Refinery Skill - Fury 3

 

Alphonse

Folkvangr

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Brazen Attack/Def 3 (from Defiant Attack 2)

Refinery Skill - Victory or Defeat (Atk/Def +5, Spd/Res -5)

 

Shareena

Fensalir

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Threaten Attack/Def 2 (from Threaten Attack 2)

Refinery Skill - Infantry Pulse 3

 

Virion

Longbow

Effect - 14 Mt. Unit can attack from 3 spaces away, but cannot counterattack. Slows special trigger (cooldown count +1). 

Refinery - HP + 3. Darting Blow 3

 

Titania

Urvan

Effect - 16 Mt. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). 

Refinery - Mourning Glory (unit gains atk/spd/def/res +2 during combat for each ally below 75% HP, excluding unit). 

 

Robin

Grima's Bane

Effect - 14 Mt. Effective against Dragons.

Refinery Skill - Foe's bonuses from skills (fortify, rally, etc.) are nullified during combat.

 

Jakob

Jakob's Dagger

Effect - 14 Mt. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. Pulsing Blow (when unit initiates combat, allies within 2 spaces gain Special Cooldown Charge +1; does not apply to unit). 

Refinery - HP + 3. Guard 3. 

 

Corrin (Male)

Yato

Refinery - HP +3. Swift Sparrow 2 (From Darting Blow 2). 

Refinery Skill - Desperation 3

 

Niles

Niles' Bow

Effect - Mt 14. Accelerates Special Trigger (Cooldown Count -1). 

Refinery - HP +3. Enchanted Blade 3 (If unit's Res - Foe's Res is greater than or equal to 1, unit gains Special cooldown charge +1 per attack. If using other similar skill, only highest value applied). 

 

Innes

Nidhogg

Refinery Skill - Distant Def 3

 

Saizo

Flame Shuriken

Effect - Mt 14. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. This weapon deals damage to foe's Resistance instead of Defense. Accelerates special trigger (Cooldown Count -1). 

Refinery Skill - Blood Moon (when special triggers, ignore 20% of target's def/res). 

 

Seth

Paragon Blade

Effect - Mt 16. At start of turn, allies below 50% (not including unit) within 2 spaces gain +3 to atk/spd/def/res through their next actions.

Refinery - HP +3. Aggressive Strategy (for allies within 2 spaces, if ally's movement type is different from unit's movement type, ally gains Spd/Atk +4 during combat). 

 

Rebalanced Hawkeye, Alphonse, Shareena, Virion, Robin, Titania, Corrin, Saizo, and Seth based on feedback.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Etheus

[redlight]

You fixed up most of the issues though there are small things that need to be reworked. Otherwise pretty solid

[Corrobin]

Okay, I think I have an idea or two of my own.

Henry

Crow's Shadow

Mt: 14

Base Effect: +6 to Attack in combat if unit's Defense > Foe's Defense

Refine Effect: +1 to Special cooldown if unit's Defense > Foe's Defense +3.

 

Odin

Moonlight Thunder

Mt: 14

Base Effect: +4 to Def/Res when enemy initiated attack.

Refinement Effect: +4 to Attack/Speed when enemy initiated attack

[Ice Dragon]

15 hours ago, Etheus said:

Effect - 16 Mt. Unit can initiate combat from 1 or 2 spaces away, but can only counter at melee range. Slows Special Trigger (Cooldown Count +1). 

Attacking from multiple ranges is physically impossible to do because of the game's swipe controls. This is why all ranged melee weapons in this game can only initiate combat from melee ranged, but can counterattack at range.

 

15 hours ago, Etheus said:

Effect - 14 Mt. Unit can attack from 3 spaces away, but cannot counterattack. Slows special trigger (cooldown count +1).

4 hours ago, Etheus said:

Actually, Virion's longbow wouldn't come with Firesweep.

It effectively does because, as mentioned by silveraura25, the only units that are able to counterattack are those with Distant Counter or Close Counter, assuming their skill effects are not changed to account for 3-range weapons, which they probably will.

[bottlegnomes]

@Etheus I feel like Fury isn't going to help Anna that much. Her issues are low attack and defense. Even with that and DB, she's hitting 52 attack and 25 def. I picked DB because it's easily available and she doesn't have trouble with speed. Sure it works, but it just makes her a decent glass cannon in a sea of glass cannons. Fury also doesn't really fit her character. What about something like Savy Combatant: When unit is below 50% HP can use action to move an ally within 2 spaces to an adjacent space? I have no idea if that's actually balanced at all though.

For Sharena, I like the idea, but I'm not sure if 46 HP is enough to be super effective at it. I mean that literally. I don't know where infantry HP ranges from anymore.

For Innes DD seems like a waste. His def is still terrible even with the +6, and bow users are going to eat him alive anyway. Maybe like warding breath, swift stance, or mirror stance if you want an EP oriented skill. Or flip it and work on improving his offense. That said, I'm not sure he actually needs a refinement since he's a pretty good brave bow archer already from what I've heard.

Minus 3 range which I'm opposed to for reasons others have mentioned, the rest seem fine enough to me. I'll try to look more closely later.

@Ice Dragon For DC/CC, do you mean the descriptions or actual implementation that lets them counter? I ask because I'm not quite sure how exactly they function, like is it combat range = 1 & 2 on EP or is it a universal this unit can counter minus sweep skill effects?

Edited April 5, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Fabulously Olivier]

16 hours ago, Etheus said:

Hawkeye
Berserk Tomahawk

Effect - 16 Mt. Unit can initiate combat from 2 spaces away, but can only counter at melee range. 

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Brash Assault 3

 

Anna

Noatun

Weapon Refinery - HP + 3, Escape Route 3 (From Escape Route 2)

Refinery Skill - Life and Death 3

 

Alphonse

Folkvangr

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Brazen Attack/Def 3 (from Defiant Attack 2)

Refinery Skill - Victory or Defeat (Atk/Def +5, Spd/Res -5)

 

Shareena

Fensalir

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Threaten Attack/Def 2 (from Threaten Attack 2)

Refinery Skill - Infantry Pulse 3

 

Virion

Longbow

Effect - 14 Mt. Unit can attack from 3 spaces away, but cannot counterattack or follow-up. 

Refinery - Accelerates special trigger (cooldown count -1.)

 

Titania

Urvan

Effect - 16 Mt. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). 

Refinery - Mourning Glory (unit gains atk/spd/def/res +2 during combat for each ally below 75% HP, excluding unit). 

 

Robin

Grima's Bane

Effect - 14 Mt. Effective against Dragons.

Refinery Skill - Foe's bonuses from skills (fortify, rally, etc) are nullified during combat.

 

Jakob

Jakob's Dagger

Effect - 14 Mt. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. Healing Pulse (at the start of every turn, unit and allies within 2 spaces are healed for 5 hp.)

Refinery - Fury 3

 

Corrin (Male)

Yato

Refinery - HP +3. Swift Sparrow 2 (From Darting Blow 2). 

Refinery Skill - Desperation 3

 

Niles

Niles' Bow

Effect - Mt 14. Accelerates Special Trigger (Cooldown Count -1). 

Refinery - HP +3. Enchanted Blade 3 (If unit's Res - Foe's Res is greater than or equal to 1, unit gains Special cooldown charge +1 per attack. If using other similar skill, only highest value applied). 

 

Innes

Nidhogg

Refinery Skill - Mirror Stance 2

 

Saizo

Flame Shuriken

Effect - Mt 14. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. This weapon deals damage to foe's Resistance instead of Defense. Accelerates special trigger (Cooldown Count -1). 

Refinery Skill - Blood Moon (when special triggers, ignore 20% of target's def/res). 

 

Seth

Paragon Blade

Effect - Mt 16. At start of turn, allies below 50% (not including unit) within 2 spaces gain +3 to atk/spd/def/res through their next actions.

Refinery - HP +3. Aggressive Strategy (for allies within 2 spaces, if ally's movement type is different from unit's movement type, ally gains Spd/Atk +4 during combat). 

 

Hawkeye - due to dual attack ranges being impossible, changed weapon to only initiate from range. Removed cooldown penalty to compensate for reduced versatility.

Anna - changed Fury to Life and Death

Virion - rebalanced longbow, removing special cooldown penalty but removing ability to follow up or counter. Changed refine bonus to accelerates special trigger. The harsher penalties should separate the weapon from Firesweep Bow.

Jakob - completely reworked weapon.

Innes - changed Distant Def 3 to Mirror Stance 2 to account for his poor def. Though Innes is a great brave bow unit, that does not change the relatively lackluster state of his prf weapon.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Etheus

[Corrobin]

I made my own weapons for Henry and Odin!

[Ice Dragon]

29 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

For DC/CC, do you mean the descriptions or actual implementation that lets them counter? I ask because I'm not quite sure how exactly they function, like is it combat range = 1 & 2 on EP or is it a universal this unit can counter minus sweep skill effects?

Both. Currently, there is no way to test what their effect actually is.

Distant Counter and Close Counter have the effect of "enables counterattack at any range" and it is unclear whether it means

• 2 range for Distant Counter and 1 range for Close Counter,
• 1-2 range for both, or
• any range for both

because there are no weapons at attack at 3 range or higher for there to be a functional difference between the three possibilities.

I see Distant Counter and Close Counter as affecting a different mechanic than Sweep skills, so there will never be any conflict there. Distant Counter and Close Counter affect the range check for a counterattack, whereas Sweep skills affect whether a counterattack check happens in the first place.

[redlight]

56 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

@Etheus I feel like Fury isn't going to help Anna that much. Her issues are low attack and defense. Even with that and DB, she's hitting 52 attack and 25 def. I picked DB because it's easily available and she doesn't have trouble with speed. Sure it works, but it just makes her a decent glass cannon in a sea of glass cannons. Fury also doesn't really fit her character. What about something like Savy Combatant: When unit is below 50% HP can use action to move an ally within 2 spaces to an adjacent space? I have no idea if that's actually balanced at all though.

For Sharena, I like the idea, but I'm not sure if 46 HP is enough to be super effective at it. I mean that literally. I don't know where infantry HP ranges from anymore.

For Innes DD seems like a waste. His def is still terrible even with the +6, and bow users are going to eat him alive anyway. Maybe like warding breath, swift stance, or mirror stance if you want an EP oriented skill. Or flip it and work on improving his offense. That said, I'm not sure he actually needs a refinement since he's a pretty good brave bow archer already from what I've heard.

Minus 3 range which I'm opposed to for reasons others have mentioned, the rest seem fine enough to me. I'll try to look more closely later.

@Ice Dragon For DC/CC, do you mean the descriptions or actual implementation that lets them counter? I ask because I'm not quite sure how exactly they function, like is it combat range = 1 & 2 on EP or is it a universal this unit can counter minus sweep skill effects?

46 HP for infantry pulse is considered quite solid. The launch units' HP might be a little higher than that, but a majority of the newer infantry heroes have HP lower than 46 (Brave Ike, Ayra, Dorcas)

DD could be considered just as an overkill against mages, making Innes perfect for killing them.

[bottlegnomes]

@Ice Dragon Ah, was wondering if maybe someone had gotten in there and checked. I know it's been discussed previously, but my gut is that they do the first point given that they're two distinct skills. It'd seem frivolous to make two identical skills and then lock them to different attack types. Obviously with the Falchions there was a lore reason. That said it seems like it'd be programmatically easier to just have them counter everything since that's be a pretty easy flag check. Mind, this is all me spitballing since I have no idea what their code looks like.

@silveraura25 Good to know on the IP thing. In that case, I'm all for it. Double IP Sharena would be hilarious.

As for Innes, I agree with the mage killing sentiment, but like I said, the def seems pointless and at that point he might as well have warding stance 3. Whilr functionally identical (he tanks mages and dies to bows and dragons), it is technically a downgrade since 99% of the time it won't help against dragons, and suggesting a downgrade seemed wrong to me for whatever reason.

Edited April 5, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

For Innes DD seems like a waste. His def is still terrible even with the +6, and bow users are going to eat him alive anyway. Maybe like warding breath, swift stance, or mirror stance if you want an EP oriented skill. Or flip it and work on improving his offense. That said, I'm not sure he actually needs a refinement since he's a pretty good brave bow archer already from what I've heard.

The entire point of giving Nidhogg a refine is to get away from the "give every bow user a Brave Bow+" mentality.

Distant Def is a very welcome skill to give to Innes because colorless units cannot tank as well as colored units without much higher (~12) defensive stats due to their inability to use the weapon triangle to mitigate damage.

Innes [+Atk, -Def] (Nidhogg, Atk/Res Bond 3, Distant Def 3) [2 adjacent] has 59 Atk, 38 Spd, and 46 Res. 59 Atk is only a little more than half of the game's unbuffed magic units in a single hit, and as a +10 against +10 opponents, that's barely more than a third. 38 Spd, while enough to block a follow-up attack, is not enough to grant a follow-up attack of his own against faster units that barely escape a one-hit kill, like the fast armored mages. 46 Res is good for surviving a few hits, but not enough to give him reliable sustain.

There's also the fact that he really wants all of three of Quick Riposte 3, Dull Ranged 3, and at least one stack of Distant Def 3 on top of Atk/Res Bond 3.

 

8 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Ah, was wondering if maybe someone had gotten in there and checked. I know it's been discussed previously, but my gut is that they do the first point given that they're two distinct skills. It'd seem frivolous to make two identical skills and then lock them to different attack types. Obviously with the Falchions there was a lore reason. That said it seems like it'd be programmatically easier to just have them counter everything since that's be a pretty easy flag check.

Svalinn Shield, Grani's Shield, and Iote's Shield were functionally the exact same skill effect locked to different movement types until Kitty Paddle was implemented.

Falchion is actually three different skills because that was the easiest way to give the weapon three different sprites without any custom handling.

[Astellius]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Attacking from multiple ranges is physically impossible to do because of the game's swipe controls. This is why all ranged melee weapons in this game can only initiate combat from melee ranged, but can counterattack at range.

Not impossible. You could set priorities for the swipe input, and otherwise use the tap inputs if you wanted to override the swipe priorities. For example, it could prioritize the distance that prevents enemy counters, and, if both distances have counter, then attack from a distance. If you wanted to attack close or attack at a distance even if you would be hit by a counter, then one could simply use the tap inputs as normal. This would make the gameplay less smooth and unnecessarily complicated, and thus would be a bad mechanic, but it's certainly not an impossible configuration with the current controls.

[Fabulously Olivier]

53 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The entire point of giving Nidhogg a refine is to get away from the "give every bow user a Brave Bow+" mentality.

Distant Def is a very welcome skill to give to Innes because colorless units cannot tank as well as colored units without much higher (~12) defensive stats due to their inability to use the weapon triangle to mitigate damage.

Innes [+Atk, -Def] (Nidhogg, Atk/Res Bond 3, Distant Def 3) [2 adjacent] has 59 Atk, 38 Spd, and 46 Res. 59 Atk is only a little more than half of the game's unbuffed magic units in a single hit, and as a +10 against +10 opponents, that's barely more than a third. 38 Spd, while enough to block a follow-up attack, is not enough to grant a follow-up attack of his own against faster units that barely escape a one-hit kill, like the fast armored mages. 46 Res is good for surviving a few hits, but not enough to give him reliable sustain.

There's also the fact that he really wants all of three of Quick Riposte 3, Dull Ranged 3, and at least one stack of Distant Def 3 on top of Atk/Res Bond 3.

 

Svalinn Shield, Grani's Shield, and Iote's Shield were functionally the exact same skill effect locked to different movement types until Kitty Paddle was implemented.

Falchion is actually three different skills because that was the easiest way to give the weapon three different sprites without any custom handling.

Perhaps Nidhogg should receive a different set of buffs then?

Weapon Refine (All) - Trades Owl Tome effect for Attack/Res Bond 3.

Refinery Skill - one of Mirror Stance, Warding Breath, Warding Stance, or Dull Ranged 

[bottlegnomes]

@Ice Dragon The shields would fall into lore reasons IMO. I don't believe there's a real Svalinn's Shield in FE, but If they wanted to implement it in some other manner they'd have to:

A: Give Michalis a different A skill.

B: Make Iote's applicable to armor and give Sheena that.

C: Give Sheena a different A skill.

D: Make Svalinn be Iote's but with universal accessibility at which point why have Iote's?

E: Make Iote's flier only and Svalinn cav and armor only at which point it's minimally more work to make three separate skills and, pre-dual effectiveness weapons, made more sense with the rest of the game.

Are any of those particularly difficult? Probably not, but there is some basis in lore for it. That and, going back to DC/CC, they negate different weapons, so like DC adding 2 range and CC adding 1 range, they might have different implementations, like only negating certain weapons' effects or checking the weapon's effective against field before deciding if they should negate anything.

Falchion is lore because the sprites have to be different to accurately depict the source material.

All that aside, I'm not saying that there's no way they would've done that nor am I talking about functionally identical skills. All I meant was it seems like more (and unnecessary) work for themselves to have two skills that are programmatically identical just with different skins and different restrictions without a decent amount of reasoning (a la the Falchion sprites or the potentially shoddy reasoning I just listed). But on the other hand, it seems like having something that just says yes counter would take less infrastructure to support. Then again, maybe a designer told them to and their boss agreed. I don't know their inner workings. That's why one of the sites I worked on has an ugly-ass logo. I was just more curious as to what the actual implementation was since none seemed ideal.

What does your Innes part have to do with my point that his def is garbage even with DD? Or were you just arguing the part about me not being sure he needs a refinement? If that's the case, I wasn't arguing that no archer should get refinements unless they can't run BB well so much as if we're talking breaking out of BB archer meta, Innes would probably be lower than a lot of others because he is already a pretty solid unit with at least somewhat of a niche, as opposed to Klein or Rebecca.

Edited April 5, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[redlight]

6 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Perhaps Nidhogg should receive a different set of buffs then?

Weapon Refine (All) - Trades Owl Tome effect for Attack/Res Bond 3.

Refinery Skill - one of Mirror Stance, Warding Breath, Warding Stance, or Dull Ranged 

He needs that speed so maybe spd/res bond?

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, silveraura25 said:

He needs that speed so maybe spd/res bond?

Maybe. Why not just go with Fury at that point? 

[Corrobin]

I changed the title to be more accurate, guys.

[redlight]

Just now, Corrobin said:

I changed the title to be more accurate, guys.

Thanks : )

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, Astellius said:

Not impossible. You could set priorities for the swipe input, and otherwise use the tap inputs if you wanted to override the swipe priorities. For example, it could prioritize the distance that prevents enemy counters, and, if both distances have counter, then attack from a distance. If you wanted to attack close or attack at a distance even if you would be hit by a counter, then one could simply use the tap inputs as normal. This would make the gameplay less smooth and unnecessarily complicated, and thus would be a bad mechanic, but it's certainly not an impossible configuration with the current controls.

The problem is that the tap inputs are not "normal". Heck, the tutorial uses the swipe input method.

The game currently has equal amounts of usability for both input methods and does not push one over the other. Creating a mechanic that is impossible to use with one of the two input methods is therefore a poor design decision and should be off the table unless they want to push one input method over the other.

 

7 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Perhaps Nidhogg should receive a different set of buffs then?

No. +5 Atk/Res when 1-3 units are adjacent is inferior to +4 Atk/Spd/Def/Res when 2 units are adjacent and is strictly inferior to +6 Atk/Spd/Def/Res when 3 units are adjacent.

 

2 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Maybe. Why not just go with Fury at that point? 

Also no. +3 Atk/Spd/Def/Res with a 6 damage penalty is also strictly worse than +4 Atk/Spd/Def/Res when 2 units are adjacent.

 

3 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

The shields would fall into lore reasons IMO. I don't believe there's a real Svalinn's Shield in FE, but If they wanted to implement it with universal negation they'd have to:

You missed the point entirely.

 

Here's the specific line I was responding to with the effective damage negation skills:

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

It'd seem frivolous to make two identical skills and then lock them to different attack types.

My counterexample was that prior to the introduction of Kitty Paddle, there already existed a set of three exactly identical skills locked to different movement types.

They were likely created separate from each other for lore reasons for the same reason that Distant Counter and Close Counter, which possibly still have identical effects, are separated for ease of understanding.

 

And if you really want to be technical, we have a lot of skills that are technically identical, but locked to different weapon types, with the only difference being that they have different sprites.

• Iron Sword, Iron Lance, and Iron Axe are identical to each other, but locked to different weapon types.
• Steel Sword, Steel Lance, and Steel Axe are identical to each other, but locked to different weapon types.
• Silver Sword, Silver Lance, and Silver Axe are identical to each other, but locked to different weapon types.
• Silver Sword+, Silver Lance+, and Silver Axe+ are identical to each other, but locked to different weapon types.
• Killing Edge, Killer Lance, and Killer Axe are identical to each other, but locked to different weapon types.
• etc.

[bottlegnomes]

@Ice Dragon Those are all lore reasons on top of all the functional implications of the weapon triangle. The reason I said DC/CC isn't definitely a lore reason is that to my knowledge there isn't a precedent in FE for a skill or non-weapon item that allows a user to counter at a range they normally couldn't but that skill/item being restricted to a certain set of weapon types. Again, I was more curious since as I said none of the options seem ideal from an implementing them PoV. All of that was my two cents and me being inclined to rambling. If their reasoning was we like the way those sound better than a single skill or it fits with our view of lore better, cool.

As for the Innes thing, was that the point you were responding to?

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Astellius]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The problem is that the tap inputs are not "normal". Heck, the tutorial uses the swipe input method.

The game currently has equal amounts of usability for both input methods and does not push one over the other. Creating a mechanic that is impossible to use with one of the two input methods is therefore a poor design decision and should be off the table unless they want to push one input method over the other.

I was only rebutting the claim that this was an impossible mechanic. It would surely be a bad design; indeed, I even said as much. Whether or not you consider tap inputs to be a normal input method is pretty beside the point, and I also think you misread what I said there. I said the tap inputs could be used as normal, i.e., in the sense there would be no need to change anything about the current tap inputs in order to implement the suggested mechanic. So it would be normal with respect to the realm of tap inputs, which doesn't really say anything about the normalcy of tap inputs vs. swipe inputs.

Plus, there are also ways to implement it with the swipe input, albeit with some minor adjustments. For example, they could put a button to toggle between the distances at the bottom of the screen. I still think it would be a bad mechanic, but not one that's impossible to implement.

[Ice Dragon]

42 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

The reason I said DC/CC isn't definitely a lore reason

It's there to make it simple to understand (and to make the skill more rare). "Distant counter" makes it clear that the skill allows a melee unit to counter at a distance, and "close counter" similarly makes it clear that the skill allows a ranged unit to counter at close range.

 

15 minutes ago, Astellius said:

I said the tap inputs could be used as normal, i.e., in the sense there would be no need to change anything about the current tap inputs in order to implement the suggested mechanic.

Ambiguous wording, then, because "as normal" could also imply that tap inputs are the norm. My bad.

 

16 minutes ago, Astellius said:

Plus, there are also ways to implement it with the swipe input, albeit with some minor adjustments. For example, they could put a button to toggle between the distances at the bottom of the screen. I still think it would be a bad mechanic, but not one that's impossible to implement.

UI design is part of my job description. Toggling the default attack distance with a button at the bottom of the screen is poor usability because it breaks the flow of thought and motion.

Honestly, the best way to do it is to prompt the player to select the tile to attack from if it is ambiguous (i.e. they swiped across both a 2-range and a 1-range tile in succession while dragging to the target), though even that I would consider to be clunky.