General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[bottlegnomes]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's there to make it simple to understand (and to make the skill more rare). "Distant counter" makes it clear that the skill allows a melee unit to counter at a distance, and "close counter" similarly makes it clear that the skill allows a ranged unit to counter at close range.

Were you there for the design meetings? :P

But yeah, that was basically my whole point of that: What's the implementation and why?

[Corrobin]

Henry

Crow's Shadow

Mt: 14

Base Effect: +6 to Attack in combat if unit's Defense > Foe's Defense

Refine Effect: +1 to Special cooldown if unit's Defense > Foe's Defense +3.

 

Odin

Moonlight Thunder

Mt: 14

Base Effect: +4 to Def/Res when enemy initiated attack.

Refinement Effect: +4 to Attack/Speed when enemy initiated attack

Ogma

Gladiator Blade

Base effect: +7 to Attack/Defense when under 80% HP at start of combat.

Refinement effect: +4 Attack/Defense when initiating combat.

[Astellius]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

UI design is part of my job description. Toggling the default attack distance with a button at the bottom of the screen is poor usability because it breaks the flow of thought and motion.

Honestly, the best way to do it is to prompt the player to select the tile to attack from if it is ambiguous (i.e. they swiped across both a 2-range and a 1-range tile in succession while dragging to the target), though even that I would consider to be clunky.

Sure, that's another possibility as well, and I agree that all these suggested methods would not be particularly good for gameplay. I certainly wouldn't want any of them. But they're at least possible ways to implement the ability to initiate an attack at either distance, even if inelegant and undesirable.

[Fabulously Olivier]

A few more ideas:

 

Odin

Odin's Aching Blood

Effect - Mt 14. The effects of field buffs on unit (Fortify, Rally, etc.) are doubled. 

Refinery Skill - HP +3, +10 Damage when Special triggers.

 

Lon'qu

Amatsu

Effect - Mt 16. Flashing Blade 3

Refinery Skill - HP +3, +10 Damage when Special triggers

 

Merric

Excalibur

Refinery Skill - HP +3. If unit's special triggers an area of effect, accelerate special trigger (cooldown count -2)

Dark Excalibur

Refinery Skill - HP +3, Effective Against Flying Foes

 

Sonya

Dark Excalibur 

Refinery Skill - HP +3, Effective Against Flying Foes

 

Barst

Barst's Hatchet

Effect - Mt 16. Wrath 3

Refinery Skill - HP +3. If unit's HP = 100% at start of combat and unit initiates combat, unit attacks twice then takes 5 damage after combat.

 

Arthur

Justice!

Effect - Mt 16. Avenger (Unit's special charge +1 when foes initiate combat on allies within 2 spaces). 

Refinery Skill - HP + 3, Wrath 3

 

Gaius

Gaius's Daggers

Effect - Mt 14. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. Flashing Blade 3.

Refinery Skill - HP +3, +10 Damage when Special triggers.

 

Matthew

Leila's Dagger

Effect - Mt 14. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. During combat, unit's Atk/Spd/Def/Res boosted by number of adjacent allies × 2.

Refinery Skill - HP +3, Distant Def 3

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Etheus

[redlight]

9 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Henry

Crow's Shadow

Mt: 14

Base Effect: +6 to Attack in combat if unit's Defense > Foe's Defense

Refine Effect: +1 to Special cooldown if unit's Defense > Foe's Defense +3.

 

Odin

Moonlight Thunder

Mt: 14

Base Effect: +4 to Def/Res when enemy initiated attack.

Refinement Effect: +4 to Attack/Speed when enemy initiated attack

Ogma

Gladiator Blade

Base effect: +7 to Attack/Defense when under 80% HP at start of combat.

Refinement effect: +4 Attack/Defense when initiating combat.

Henry: You either have +atk, but risk having lower defense (additional attack, but effect won't proc and hit like a noodle), or +def (ensuring you proc the additional attack, but still hit like a noodle). His +6 atk will proc against glass cannon mages who can kill him with doubles. He can take on archers, but then why not just use a raventome instead for that. Try to rework the defense blade effect and increase his strengths rather than trying to fix up weaknesses. Obviously for Henry is that he wants CC, but his weapon can't get it as an effect since it would be considered unfair for those that wasted a Takumi for him

Odin: Too weak and doesn't really help him out at all. His stats would be that of a +10, but he'd still suck. Go all out on the offensive with him. Give him some insane tome that'll allow him to deal significant damage and be speedy, but not too broken. Or make him a reliable support unit. The choice is yours

Ogma: Focus on his decent speed instead of his mediocre defense. His HP pool should be large enough to drop down to brazen range so you don't really need more defense

[Corrobin]

6 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

Henry: You either have +atk, but risk having lower defense (additional attack, but effect won't proc and hit like a noodle), or +def (ensuring you proc the additional attack, but still hit like a noodle). His +6 atk will proc against glass cannon mages who can kill him with doubles. He can take on archers, but then why not just use a raventome instead for that. Try to rework the defense blade effect and increase his strengths rather than trying to fix up weaknesses. Obviously for Henry is that he wants CC, but his weapon can't get it as an effect since it would be considered unfair for those that wasted a Takumi for him

Odin: Too weak and doesn't really help him out at all. His stats would be that of a +10, but he'd still suck. Go all out on the offensive with him. Give him some insane tome that'll allow him to deal significant damage and be speedy, but not too broken. Or make him a reliable support unit. The choice is yours

Ogma: Focus on his decent speed instead of his mediocre defense. His HP pool should be large enough to drop down to brazen range so you don't really need more defense

Henry: He has good defense, so I created skills that would take advantage of that.

Odin: He needs buffs everywhere! His bulk is ehh, his speed is ehh, his attack is ehhh, so he needs all three!

Ogma: I swore he had more defense than I thought.

[redlight]

1 hour ago, Corrobin said:

Henry: He has good defense, so I created skills that would take advantage of that.

Odin: He needs buffs everywhere! His bulk is ehh, his speed is ehh, his attack is ehhh, so he needs all three!

Ogma: I swore he had more defense than I thought.

Problem with Henry is that his defensive bulk is okay, but not great. His defense is considered pretty standard among melee units. You'd need to have Myrrh's level of defense to consider using defense activated skills. Perhaps a steady breath tome. That'd be nice :)

Ogma's defense is 28 which is okay, but not worth investing in.

Edited April 6, 2018 by silveraura25

[Corrobin]

Henry

Crow's Shadow

Mt: 14

Base Effect: +2 to Attack/Defense/Resistance when initiating attack.

Refine Effect: WTA against colorless units.

Odin

Moonlight Thunder

Mt: 14

Base Effect: Grants +5 to Attack/Speed. Inflicts -5 to Defense/Resistance.

Refinement Effect: +4 to Attack/Speed when enemy initiated attack

Ogma

Gladiator Blade

Base effect: +7 to Attack/Speed when under 80% HP at start of combat.

Refinement effect: +6 Attack when initiating combat.

[Mackc2]

6 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Odin

Moonlight Thunder

Mt: 14

Base Effect: Grants +5 to Attack/Speed. Inflicts -5 to Defense/Resistance.

Refinement Effect: +4 to Attack/Speed when enemy initiated attack

With life and death built into his weapon Odins offensive stats are on par with Setsuna but his defences are worse, and the refinement effects don't synergise well since it lowers his Res but the second effect encourages tanking 

[TheWill]

7 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Henry

Crow's Shadow

Mt: 14

Base Effect: +2 to Attack/Defense/Resistance when initiating attack.

Refine Effect: WTA against colorless units.

Honestly, seems very underwhelming for a prf. It acts as a worse Deft Harpoon and becomes a raven tome on promotion. 

[bottlegnomes]

After all these ones for Odin, I feel like I need to do my own. Is it broken? At this point, does it even matter?
 
Daft Blade: 14 might. Special cooldown -1. If unit's attack < foe's attack, unit gains +2 special cooldown per attack. Effect does not stack with similar skills, yada yada. 
Refinement: When health ≤ 75%, makes a guaranteed follow-up attack. (Yes, unlike brash assault, it's not locked to initiation and enemies that can counter attack.)

I figure Odin's (maybe more Owain's; I don't really remember Fates) schtick is being reckless and biting off more than he can chew, but doing so with excessive gusto, so that's where the effects came from.

So if you give him brazen attack/whatever, he's hitting 46 attack with +attack, and is guaranteed a dragon fang every round of combat for 69 attack on one of the two hits provided the enemy has 47 or more attack. To match the same damage with a blade tome, he needs 57/58 attack, which works out to +6/4/3-4/0. Granted, that's a brazen, which is quite rare, but DB3 gives him 67 on one hit for an average of 56 over two attacks.

On a side note, just realized that without any attack boost, he's still only hitting 58.5 attack with dragon fang, which is a little sad.

Edited April 8, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Vince777]

Would be surprised if Odin ever gets weapon refinement.

He's rather difficult to fix and it's a character bound to get an alternate in the coming year. Most popular Awakening character not yet in the game according to CYL2.

5th overall, behind only 2 Heroes exclusive, Leif who is coming next week and a Fates shapeshifter.


 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Vince777

[bottlegnomes]

1 minute ago, Vince777 said:

Would be surprised if Odin ever gets weapon refinement.

He's rather difficult to fix and it's a character bound to get an alternate in the coming year. Most popular Awakening character not yet in the game according to CYL2.

This is kind of where I'm at too. I suspect they're just going to give up on certain characters that are bordering on unsalvageable and introduce new versions. It might be part of why Henry got H!Henry, though I do find it hilarious that the armored version of Henry is significantly less physically bulky than the infantry one.

[redlight]

5 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Would be surprised if Odin ever gets weapon refinement.

He's rather difficult to fix and it's a character bound to get an alternate in the coming year. Most popular Awakening character not yet in the game according to CYL2.

5th overall, behind only 2 Heroes exclusive, Leif who is coming next week and a Fates shapeshifter.


 

They could always make him a support unit

[Vince777]

I suppose.

However what I think is most probable is : "here's Owain, forget about Odin".

 

[Corrobin]

Henry

Crow's Shadow

Mt: 14

Base Effect: +4 to Attack/Resistance when initiating attack.

Refine Effect: WTA against colorless units.

Odin

Moonlight Thunder

Mt: 14

Base Effect: Grants +5 to Attack/Speed. Inflicts -5 to Defense/Resistance.

Refinement Effect: +4 to Attack/Speed when unit initiated attack

Ogma

Gladiator Blade

Base effect: +7 to Attack/Speed when under 80% HP at start of combat.

Refinement effect: +6 Attack when initiating combat.

[Diovani Bressan]

For all players knowledge:

Refined Nameless Blade is a combination of a Killing/Slaying Edge with a Wo Dao (Accelerates Special Trigger and deals +10 damage when Special triggers), which is a really good weapon.

Refined Forblaze has Death Blow 3.

[pullofthebush]

So... My Lilina has 55 ATK (with a boon and +1) which makes it 67 with DB6, 70 with ATK +3 Seal and 76 with ATK Tactic 3... Crazy!

I might refine Binding Blade on my +ATK Roy too, but he's -RES so I'm not sure how good he would be at his new role.

[Jingle Jangle]

I was wondering if anyone else believed that Raven tomes, or gem weapons need a refine soon? Even since the update with the refine options, I find them to be lacking in this day and age with bulker units. Even worse with color bows coming out soon, weakening the raven tomes niche. I wonder what can be done to enhance them.

[bottlegnomes]

On 4/10/2018 at 1:31 AM, pullofthebush said:

So... My Lilina has 55 ATK (with a boon and +1) which makes it 67 with DB6, 70 with ATK +3 Seal and 76 with ATK Tactic 3... Crazy!

I might refine Binding Blade on my +ATK Roy too, but he's -RES so I'm not sure how good he would be at his new role.

I didn't spend a ton of time with it, but -RES actually seemed to be his best bane in the combat sim against all units +5 with fury override. It seemed like he had enough bulk to survive a hit or two and enough speed to avoid a decent number of doubles. I guess my point is, go for it. You certainly don't have a horrible one for it.

16 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I was wondering if anyone else believed that Raven tomes, or gem weapons need a refine soon? Even since the update with the refine options, I find them to be lacking in this day and age with bulker units. Even worse with color bows coming out soon, weakening the raven tomes niche. I wonder what can be done to enhance them.

Raven tomes maybe, since they won't have a guaranteed niche of killing bows anymore, but gem weapons with a breaker seem fine anyway. Sure, they're a little weaker than the other weapons and they don't have the additional effects, but they do free up an A slot versus TA3 which can be put to good use.

[Silverly]

24 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I was wondering if anyone else believed that Raven tomes, or gem weapons need a refine soon? Even since the update with the refine options, I find them to be lacking in this day and age with bulker units. Even worse with color bows coming out soon, weakening the raven tomes niche. I wonder what can be done to enhance them.

I agree they should be included in refinery now. They aren’t exactly cutting it with all the other weapons getting all the stat bonuses now. Also, add in Poison Dagger to that list. It’s a crime that it’s weaker than fricken Kitty Paddle.

[pullofthebush]

10 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

I didn't spend a ton of time with it, but -RES actually seemed to be his best bane in the combat sim against all units +5 with fury override. It seemed like he had enough bulk to survive a hit or two and enough speed to avoid a decent number of doubles. I guess my point is, go for it. You certainly don't have a horrible one for it.

Yeah, he seems to be doing fine. I went for the refine and gave him Warding Breath (because I wanted to get rid of the free L!Ike). He's doing a good job against dragons, especially with CD seal.

[Corrobin]

Okay, Clair, Camilla and Corrin are getting refines soon.

[redlight]

Rhomphaia is most likely Wing Sword, but with a different refine. Caeda and Clair have similar stats so if Caeda is considered good now the same can be predicted of Clair after the update comes. As for the refinement, I'm guessing Wo Dao effect based on speed. 30% maybe

Camilla will obviously have a bond skill refinement that's active when near an infantry sword unit (or dragon, heck maybe both). Though the initial effect of her ax will most likely increase resistance though I'm not sure what else

Yato... And no, there won't be an Omega Yato because it's already in that form. I'm guessing that darting blow 2 will become spectral blow 2. Refinement I guess will be like Divine Naga's buff negation

[Alkaid]

Definitely expecting a spear version of Wing Sword for Rhomphaia with either a Wo Dao or the spd damage boost effect. It seems like one likely to retain it's original game effects for the most part.  I'm expecting Camilla to get something something new made up for her axe, just like they did with Hinoka's Lance. On top of whatever else they come up with, a drive atk effect similar to Hinoka's bow would be a neat reference to her Rose's Thorns ability in Fates. Not sure what to add to the Yato, besides +4/4/4/4 blow seeming likely.