Training Mafia 3.0: Advanced - GAMEOVER

[Athena_57]

2 minutes ago, EvanManManMan said:

Is that it?

A bunch of virtual votes on Bart I think, people waiting for him to post.

54 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

Okay, I looked at Evan's phase end and I can see where Fable's pocket theory is coming from.

 

@EvanManManMan Why were you townreading Makaze so hard? Like half your posts were townreading him or agreeing with him.

Could you answer this?

[Makaze]

3 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

What questions/observations were so good in your opinion? You said you liked the independent thoughts iirc, but like, almost everyone has those.

Neither of those. It was things like this:

"Page 6: 
*Makaze asks Mack this when Mack asked in a clear enough manner on page 5 “Why is Athena your only town read? Also is there a reason you post multiple single sentence posts in a row instead of putting it all in one post?” Are you even reading his posts/going back to check what he says before throwing out a scumread, or is this just another “soul read” based on one random post he makes that you happened to notice?"

On 6/20/2018 at 2:16 AM, Zeonth said:

*Makaze calls Rad town based on his follow up post to Fenrir (Makaze quotes it). I hate to just say I agree, but atm, I do agree. I also like Rad’s push on Mack to get more out of him ((specifically Mack’s own thoughts)). 

It read as natural and grudging agreement. The first part pointed out my error in how I read what Mack said. But, now that I'm reading his wall again, it's actually pretty lazy. He says what people did. He doesn't actually say what he's thinking about peoples' alignments.

First impression was he was actually thinking, but this reads more like note taking of what people did.

@Zeonth

Who would you lynch and why?

[Athena_57]

4 minutes ago, Makaze said:

It read as natural and grudging agreement. The first part pointed out my error in how I read what Mack said. But, now that I'm reading his wall again, it's actually pretty lazy. He says what people did. He doesn't actually say what he's thinking about peoples' alignments.

First impression was he was actually thinking, but this reads more like note taking of what people did.

Yeah, this is what I felt.

[Makaze]

##Vote: @Zeonth

I have a feeling the best pressure we can apply to him is with votes, otherwise we'll wall post toward EOD again.

 

[EvanManManMan]

On 6/20/2018 at 6:57 PM, Junk said:

Maybe i'm just dumb @Bartozio but what makes fable scummy for not wanting post until later?If  you're correct then all I get is that fable is lazy but that doesn't mean he's scummy. Not sure if you can answer since you may be asleep but if not please answer. Also, how has nadraj been focusing on other things as well as responding to you? He's mentioned other stuff but it's not been very much such as saying the stuff on satsuma was good and asking zeonth something. IfAlso his comment about nadraj "swinging over" to scum next day strikes me as a way to vote nadraj again if he needs to. Rest of your post is meh. Kind of vague for most of your reads but such is the nature of list posts I suppose.

Moving onto Evan, Rapier's case is hot trash for jokes??? Also idk what he means about nadraj saying no? Nadraj asked athena for some topics to talk about nadraj gave his thoughts on the topic? Also his fable case seems kind of reachy to me. Maybe it's just me but "why are you obsessed with me" implicates that fable wants to know why makaze is voting for fable. This implication seemed obvious to me so that's why I find it a bit reachy but perhaps i'm just too smart see things differently.  I think Makaze just voted fable with nothing said so I could see why fable would react in a more sarcastic way? It's hard to explain to me His quip about satsuma is definitely bad though. I don't see how asking someone why they're tunneling on X is defensive of X. It just means that you think their tunneling may be scummy and i'm guessing satsuma wanted elaboration on why makaze was so fixated. I get the impression that evan was rushed but even so he's still scummy imo. Even if you interpret the fable case differently, his rapier,nadraj, and satsuma stuff is objectvely bad

 

okay just saw 15 minutes to deadline so posting now but bart and evan should be looked at more IMO. 

I thought that Rapier's case on Athena was bad for the reasoning. I don't exactly remember it and I didn't like it. However the jokes being added as a sort of bait was very scummy since it seemed like he wanted to grab artificial reasons to push somebody. Of course this read was wrong since Rapier was killed but I don't think I had faulty reasoning there.

WRT nadroj, what I saw was Athena tried to engage him by suggesting him topics but nadroj kinda just said he wasn't responding due to lack of stuff to analyze. It seemed like he didn't want to give content.

With Fable, you called his response sarcastic but his tone seemed serious to me. That may have caused me to misrep but I don't think I'm wrong as to what Fable was really trying to say there.

As for Satsuma, I think that the wording was key. Asking somebody about a scumread isn't really being defensive but asking somebody about a tunnel is. It seemed like he had a problem with how Makaze was pushing Fable and not why he was pushing Fable. Of course this read is wrong too.

[EvanManManMan]

11 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

A bunch of virtual votes on Bart I think, people waiting for him to post.

Could you answer this?

Is Bart posting less than I was?

And I'll answer it once I get to it in my catch up

[EvanManManMan]

I think the Rapier kill implies that there is a wolf in Fable/Mack because they were his EoD scumreads. I didn't really see any other reason for him to die but lol haven't read.

[EvanManManMan]

If the perspective wasn't obvious already Fable's OMGUS of me was absolutely disgusting and he needs to die soon

[EvanManManMan]

22 hours ago, Makaze said:

I am surprised I survived.

I would like to hear from @EvanManManMan about how he thinks he went wrong.

What?

[EvanManManMan]

22 hours ago, Makaze said:

For the benefit of people who have more to say than LMAO:

Evan hardcased Rapier towards the EoD and I was beginning to doubt my town read because of it. How he processes being wrong in light of mod confirmed alignment is much better than seeing him do lightning catchup pot shots in the final minutes of the phase.

I don't get what you want from me.

I never really had a strong grasp on the game so a read being wrongisn't completely offsetting to me. 

[Athena_57]

8 minutes ago, EvanManManMan said:

I think the Rapier kill implies that there is a wolf in Fable/Mack because they were his EoD scumreads. I didn't really see any other reason for him to die but lol haven't read.

This first part is too WIFOM-y to make such a statement. Also, I was one of his scumreads as well.

He was pretty consensus town I think.

[Athena_57]

8 minutes ago, EvanManManMan said:

If the perspective wasn't obvious already Fable's OMGUS of me was absolutely disgusting and he needs to die soon

What makes you think it's a scum!OMGUS and not a town one?

[EvanManManMan]

20 hours ago, Fable said:

Junk's Satsuma vote I don't super love because it's basically attacking him for the same things people were attacking me for (which probably made me predisposed to sympathize with satsuma in the first place) but that kind of logic has been par for the course this game so not wolfy probably and the same post had decent content about other plays too so can't hate on it too much. 

Mack's vote makes me wanna cry because the advice is good but why tf did that lead to a vote? Like it's kinda how I feel about Mack in general, I can follow his thoughts but then get to his conclusions and am like "why are you doing this to me?" 

Athena's vote bothers me because he should technically know better after that other game and I tried to point that out to him. Actually his vote highlights what the problem with the satsuma wagon was. Why would wolf actively refuse to do stuff in the face of so much pressure like that? It's throwing from a wolf PoV, if it happened on later days then yes it's a problem but d1? I don't see how what satsuma was doing was that unreasonable or wolfy. 

Mak's vote was lazy af and I just see it as "let me get this mislynch since I can't get Fable's so I'll get the one person kinda defending him." Maybe I'm tunneling but idec at this point. I don't know how satsuma's lynch got so much more information when we were kinda in the same boat so it doesn't come across as authentic reasoning to me. 

Bart's vote I actually think is the worst. Because he actually acknowledges Satsuma was playing similar but votes him anyway and his votes in gneral have been very lazy to me. 

Fen I don't think is a wolf because he got on the wagon very very late and I don't know why a wolf would need to do that when satsuma's lynch was already guaranteed. It's a bad vote for no reason and just looked like consolidation.  

 So Bart>Mak>Athena>Mack>Junk>Fen IMO. 

 

So literally every vote on the Satsuma wagon is bad?

Lol ok

[EvanManManMan]

12 hours ago, Mackc2 said:

Lets start with
Athena-Townread- If he is scum trying to push the Satsuma wagon he wouldn't point out that Satsuma's play matches his town play like he did in post 182. His push on Satsuma felt very town, It looked like he was conflicted on his alignment and probed him before finally deciding he saw him as scum. Also he just generally reads town, for example post 215 shows something I think only town would ask. 

This next one isn't relevant because he is dead but I am going to share it anyway so people can get a better idea how my thought process works.
Rapier-scumlean-Their progression on Athena felt forced, almost like they where actively looking for points to lynch them on. Other scumreads where nothing special. 
Evanmanman-scumlean-Not sure if hypocrisy counts as a scumread but I found it interesting that their main point on Fable was that they are 'more concerned with being scumread than why they are being scumread' but in post 379 he asks makaze ' Are you still suspicious of me?' not something like 'Why where you suspicious of me.'
Xand-townlean- I don't have much here their tone just generally seemed town. 
Bartozio-scum- Town Bart doesn't have any reason to continue poking Xanjarox after the second vote. He doesn't seem to listen to Xan's answers. He swapped tactics after he started getting heat for his tunnelling I can't discern any reason to do this that suggests scum or town, if anyone has ideas feel free to say them. I have a few more problems with them that stops them from getting my vote right now. I will get back to them later. 
Rad- Their lack of content makes it hard for me to get any sort of read. 
 

I asked Makaze if he was still suspicious with me because I wanted his current thoughts. Asking something like why were you suspicious of me doesn'tgive me the answer that I wanted.

[Fable]

Evan going for a record number of misreps I see. 

1. It's not OMGUS if you were a wolf lean before you said anything about me and I switched because Mak wasn't happening.  

2.I didn't say every vote on the Satsuma wagon was bad. Fen through Mack are fine even if frustrating. Athena is where it gets iffy and Mak and Bart is where it gets bad.

You could at least try to read my posts before misrepping them.

[Makaze]

Now that Fenrir has delivered their reads, going to respond to their RADicate question.

I read a little bit of those games, @Fenrir, and I did see what you meant, but I still get strong towny vibes from RAD. It could be that they are being reserved because this is a mentor game, so it's not a strong case on its own, but something to consider if they do something else damning. TL;DR It's something, but it's weak.

14 hours ago, Junk said:

Same with makaze. Unless I missed something fable still seems to be your favored read but no vote (unless I missed you giving a reason and if so sorry)

Should be obvious, I recently got called out for undermining my case by pushing it. I'm not going to press my own case because it has worn out by now, so it's going to be up to others if they find out he's scummy too.

4 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:

189: Goes more in-depth with the Fable read. @Makaze could you go more in-depth with the difference between his behavior here and in IDNSFMM5? I went back to read it myself and didn't notice any overwhelming differences in his tone that I could attribute to something aside from his frustration in this thread (something I find NAI).

Sure. I went ahead and reread Fable's D1 there to make sure memory serves, he was definitively more relaxed than he is in this game. He did such things as:

Spoiler

On 4/10/2018 at 9:09 AM, Fable said:

3 hours ago, Walrein said:

oh and @Fable should post more cause I've been looking forward to playing with you again and cause this thread's too slow dammit, we need that MU FIRE

1. You post like 30 times a phase on MU so chill.

2. I don't know anybody here so I'm gonna be a lot slower with reads than I usually am that being said I'll catch up now and see if anything stands out. 

 

On 4/10/2018 at 9:20 AM, Fable said:

Okay so can we stop with the role spec? I don't think it's useful and I don't think anyone is gonna break the game that way. 

 

I'll give vague village leans on Walrein, Athena, Eclipse, and Vi for trying to have reads early which feels bad but it's what I got rn. 

 

On 4/10/2018 at 9:45 PM, Fable said:

Someone tell me who to sheep. 

 

On 4/10/2018 at 9:56 PM, Fable said:

It was me asking who I should sheep (voting me doesn't answer the question ftr). 

 

On 4/11/2018 at 12:16 AM, Fable said:

Not much?

Feel like Athena might have kept pressing if he was a wolf? Satsuma's responses were kinda blah (though not unreasonable) so it's not like he gave athena much of a reason to back off, I would have kept going if I were a wolf in that situation anyway.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can understand why satsuma's posts are meh but all that means is I'd give him more time, I don't think any of the responses were overtly villagery. 

 

On 4/11/2018 at 1:26 AM, Fable said:

NGL I did wonder if JB got jebaited by my post.. 

Like compare eclipse response to me to his and it's pretty terrible. I don't mind getting told I'm not doing well because that's not incorrect but the attitude of "no I got you" instead of trying to engage is a bad one. 

 

On 4/11/2018 at 4:04 PM, Fable said:

Bibbon is village, glad I can cross that concern of the list.

 

The overall attitude is that he is not aggressive, not defensive, and he spits out town reads on the fly based on his gut reactions, very similar to the way I have been ("X is town" out of nowhere, no quotes, etc)

His entire demeanor in this Day 1 is very different. He's tense, defensive, and is more concerned with pushing suspicions than creating a town core. He even goes so far as to insult other players and say they need to get gut. It's a completely different attitude toward the players despite having a lot of the same members and it makes no sense to me.

That, and it feels bad. Which is what set me on it.

Quote

213: To those of y'all who are familiar with Makaze's gameplay, is this sort of assertiveness characteristic of his playstyle? Very few seem to have much issue with it so I assume it is, but it's more forceful than what I'm used to seeing in general. Also a question Makaze himself could answer, I guess.

Not sure if this is a good answer, but this was my first handful of posts in IDNSFMM5:

Spoiler

On 4/15/2018 at 11:35 AM, Makaze said:

Hello everyone I am town and I literally have not read anything other than the OP.

I may claim if it becomes necessary but for right now I'd like to see a votecount and to see links to important cases so that I jump into the game without major upsets. Currently checking people who have flipped.

Any confirmed town's opinions preferred over people being voted.

-Makaze

 

On 4/15/2018 at 11:55 AM, Makaze said:

Towny entrance seeming in the same boat as me,
going to consider Kaoz town until further notice.

I think athena is town because of advanced lack of TMI. Reasoning: The following post simply could not have been made and make sense as someone who controls the kill orders. It would be TMI if either of Via or eclipse got killed, but since neither did, this reads as genuine reasoning that requires him to be uninformed and out of control of the target. Seems too advanced for most people to fake, let alone newbs.

 

On 4/15/2018 at 11:59 AM, Makaze said:

Reading eclipse now.

TMI = Too Much Information

Mafia have information on the actual reasoning of the mafia kill. They are much less likely to have complex speculations that to incorrect death guesses. When you are making up a claim like this, it rarely makes this much sense. If eclipse or via had been killed, then this post would look bad for him, but since they didn't, I think it makes perfect sense from a town POV, when he really has no idea what scum is thinking. i.e. he's guessing

 

On 4/15/2018 at 12:12 PM, Makaze said:

Having read eclipse's ISO...

I am not impressed? All of their reads are surface level to me.

I am reminded of the only thing in athena's ISO that bothered me: some weird comment about how eclipse is town-y because she has "honest" scumhunting (quotes his, not mine). @athena_57 Can you give a quote or two that you feel are honest from eclipse's ISO?

 

@eclipse Can you give your top three scum reads, and maybe at least a basic analysis of if they could conceivably be scum together?

 

On 4/15/2018 at 12:33 PM, Makaze said:

Based on the ISO I just read, I don't necessarily think she is attacking people for bad play over scummy play, but, she isn't reading very deep into her cases. Her cases seem passive in a sense. Like that post about soft tells. It isn't about athena. It's about what soft tells are. Later she says "I ignored a soft tell last time and it was a scum, never again". If she is reading deeper intents behind things, I don't believe it shows in her actions.

 

On 4/15/2018 at 12:35 PM, Makaze said:

One of the especially important things I'm seeing is how she says her things is associative reads. I haven't seen anything remotely like that line or reasoning from her. All of her votes are completely disconnected. I'm asking her to produce some. Hopefully that will change my mind.

 

On 4/15/2018 at 12:40 PM, Makaze said:

What bothers me more is that I think eclipse's behavior itself is the soft tell she's talking about...

In that she's randomly pressuring people for what I consider weak reasons and I don't think she's actually anywhere near scum hunting. She's just going for the easiest target she sees, is how it looks to me. Which can find scum sometimes... Just not impressive, easy to do as any alignment.

 

 

Quote

268: Is another :thinking: moment because of the "Why so defensive, why so angry?" bit. Do you think this defensiveness/anger is scummy/what are the chances of it being simple frustration?

This feeds into my answer to the first question, but yes, I think it's scummy. He's not trying to interact with me or create a town core, and he has pretty much taken to hating on me because of how sure I am instead of how scummy I am. Town motivation is to re-evaluate if you aren't sure of my alignment, or to at least interact to bring new information, which I have tried to do. When I am scum read, I tend to think "What is this person thinking, and why?" and if I think they genuinely scum read me, I try to appeal to their instincts, and give them something else to believe in: that I am having genuine thoughts too (usually by casing someone else).

Fable is just responding to everything I say with anger and "LOL nice shade bro", and it seems to go beyond OMGUS and into "I have to push his lynch until it happens" territory. Where I have moved on from my D1 case and have been trying to interact with him, he is the one who is shutting down this phase.

His anger after having the Night to think about it is irrational as town, and scummy as scum. I'm assuming he's not irrational.

[EvanManManMan]

8 hours ago, Fenrir Aesir said:

EvanManManMan
First impression from what I can recall is that he's not reading the game in full (i.e. skimming). He talks about Junk scumreading him for not RVS voting even though Junk specified that he thought EMMM was faking confusion. He also has a moment where he accuses Makaze of using a mentality of "guilty until proven innocent" when Makaze scumreads him, which is inaccurate-Makaze didn't start off scumreading the entire game, only you and Fable.

These kinds of stances on RVS feel to me like someone who'd want to use RVS as a means of gaining reads, which makes his first post and the corrosponding lack of early analysis/prodding look worse. I dislike the way he defends himself from Fable by calling him scummy over a percieved playstyle difference (Fable "disliking RVS reads" is NAI) and later defends himself from Makaze with the above "guilty until proven innocent" comment and telling Makaze to "get that out of your head if you are town."

Votes Rapier because he found Rapier's early game "flat" and wants to see "something contentful" from there-I'd definitely say Rapier'd given content by EoD but in Evan's last post D1 he's apparently unconvinced. None of his other reads have changed from the last time he gave a readlist, which ik isn't explicitly bad but the lack of a comment on Rapier gives credence to the whole "Evan's not reading the game in full" theory.

Final impression on him is a scumlean. The main thing that gets me is the Rapier kill, but I can see scum!Evan deciding that a Rapier push is fruitless and acquiescing to the kill. 

Wait, you said that I seem like the type of person that gets reads from RvS, which is true, but how does that make my first post worse? If anything it makes it better since my thoughts are clarified and it shows that I hit a block there and that I was trying to get reads when I couldn't. 

I hadn't read all of the game so me not knowing Rapier's contributions at EoD isn't really AI.

And the last part about me finding a push fruitless is spmething that doesn't happen very often and you can ask your mentor to confirm this because they have played with me a decent amount.

Overall this read on me is pretty weak and doesn't look at all into the content I gave at EoD as well as the majority of my Fable push.

[Makaze]

In b4 he responds to that with anger...

Fable, if that's what you're about to do, I'd rather you didn't engage unless it's trying to understand each other, because otherwise it's a waste of time.

[Makaze]

If you're not doing that, disregard, sorry for the shade.

[Fable]

Last game I also had Bibbon to back up my meta so was more comfortable and was mostly utr d1 but did have to tell people to back off once or twice.  

Yesterday I got pushed basically from the word go and before I got involved which is insanely tilting so yes I was in a bad mood for most of the phase.

[EvanManManMan]

1 hour ago, athena_57 said:

Okay, I looked at Evan's phase end and I can see where Fable's pocket theory is coming from.

 

@EvanManManMan Why were you townreading Makaze so hard? Like half your posts were townreading him or agreeing with him.

It was a combination of tone/gut stuff and never being w/w with mybtop wolf read Fable

[Fable]

##Vote: @EvanManManMan

Bart is fine but I'm not seeing any reason this shouldn't be the CW.

[EvanManManMan]

35 minutes ago, athena_57 said:

What makes you think it's a scum!OMGUS and not a town one?

Because I have a scumread on Fable outside of that

[Athena_57]

2 minutes ago, EvanManManMan said:

Because I have a scumread on Fable outside of that

That's circular reasoning. You're telling us to vote Fable for his scummy OMGUS, then say it's a scummy OMGUS cause he's scum.

If that was not the point of the comment, why make it?

[EvanManManMan]

22 minutes ago, Fable said:

Evan going for a record number of misreps I see. 

1. It's not OMGUS if you were a wolf lean before you said anything about me and I switched because Mak wasn't happening.  

2.I didn't say every vote on the Satsuma wagon was bad. Fen through Mack are fine even if frustrating. Athena is where it gets iffy and Mak and Bart is where it gets bad.

You could at least try to read my posts before misrepping them.

If I never voted you would you really have voted for me? I don't think so.

And while you didn't create a negative conclusion on them all you managed to say something negative and essentially shade every person on the wagon.