Remixed Legendary Heroes: New Skills Speculation!

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

I feel like if they were going for that, they'd go for an effect like Special Spiral to make it not work on Galeforce. 

It makes him more flexible though, and the less restrictions there are, the easier it is for players to mold him to suit their play style.

For player phase players, it would work with existing Firesweep, slow Brave, and Galeforce builds, and it would add Blazing spam to the mix.

For enemy phase players, he can trigger Noontime/Sol as if they were mini Aethers.

And whenever Vantage comes out as a Sacred Seal, he can be a dual phase Counter-Vantage unit for those who like dual phase units.

 

[Diovani Bressan]

Maybe Marth's Binding Shield could have a 2 spaces range, so all dragons within 2 spaces of Marth cannot do a follow-up or counterattack. I mean, it's basically a Binding Shield Rein.

Would not be weird to have such effect in the B slot. Dimitri has a Smoke skill in his B slot.

[Othin]

22 minutes ago, XRay said:

It makes him more flexible though, and the less restrictions there are, the easier it is for players to mold him to suit their play style.

For player phase players, it would work with existing Firesweep, slow Brave, and Galeforce builds, and it would add Blazing spam to the mix.

For enemy phase players, he can trigger Noontime/Sol as if they were mini Aethers.

And whenever Vantage comes out as a Sacred Seal, he can be a dual phase Counter-Vantage unit for those who like dual phase units.

 

Heroes uses restrictions deliberately, to differentiate units.

[XRay]

11 minutes ago, Othin said:

Heroes uses restrictions deliberately, to differentiate units.

Yeah, but this is an exclusive skill on a single unit, and the lack of restrictions help differentiate himself among others. No other melee flier can do Blazing spam. No other Firesweeper can deal 10 guaranteed damage during combat rather than out of combat, and the only other Firesweepers that can trigger Specials reliably during combat are ranged armor units. Only a handful of Galeforcers can Galeforce without being dependent some kind of stat check.

Instead of forcing a unit down one role that the player might not like, it lets the player to play how they want to play.

Edited February 2, 2021 by XRay

[Othin]

27 minutes ago, XRay said:

Yeah, but this is an exclusive skill on a single unit, and the lack of restrictions help differentiate himself among others. No other melee flier can do Blazing spam. No other Firesweeper can deal 10 guaranteed damage during combat rather than out of combat, and the only other Firesweepers that can trigger Specials reliably during combat are ranged armor units. Only a handful of Galeforcers can Galeforce without being dependent some kind of stat check.

Instead of forcing a unit down one role that the player might not like, it lets the player to play how they want to play.

Why sell one unit to do three things when you could sell three different units to do those things?

Heroes isn't in the business of making it easy to do whatever you want. Quite the opposite. 

[XRay]

20 minutes ago, Othin said:

Why sell one unit to do three things when you could sell three different units to do those things?

Heroes isn't in the business of making it easy to do whatever you want. Quite the opposite. 

Because there is nothing wrong with removing restrictions. It is like saying Tharja and Nino should keep the cooldown restriction on their Weapon to force them into being a Blade mage and nothing else, instead of allowing them be both a Blade mage and Blazing nuke at the same time.

Edited February 2, 2021 by XRay

[Othin]

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

Because there is nothing wrong with removing restrictions. It is like saying Tharja and Nino should keep the cooldown restriction on their Weapon to force them into being a Blade mage and nothing else, instead of allowing them be both a Blade mage and Blazing nuke at the same time.

Restrictions are what allows Heroes to keep its enormous roster from blurring together. Some restrictions aren't needed, but others are key to the game's long term health. 

This restriction would not be one of the right ones to remove. Encouraging players to use a game component in a way that keeps some of its appealing traits from functioning tends to just lead to frustration.

[XRay]

56 minutes ago, Othin said:

Restrictions are what allows Heroes to keep its enormous roster from blurring together. Some restrictions aren't needed, but others are key to the game's long term health. 

This restriction would not be one of the right ones to remove. Encouraging players to use a game component in a way that keeps some of its appealing traits from functioning tends to just lead to frustration.

But this is one skill on one unit.

Just because part of the skill does not work with certain builds does not mean other effects should not be added. Hades Ω's Atk+6 does not work if Lysithea is being used as a Blazing mage for example, but they still tacked on Atk+6 anyways if her Special is ready during combat. Similarly, they still tacked on true damage on Hauteclere and a few other Slaying Weapons even though it does not work with Galeforce.

[Othin]

6 minutes ago, XRay said:

But this is one skill on one unit.

Just because part of the skill does not work with certain builds does not mean other effects should not be added. Hades Ω's Atk+6 does not work if Lysithea is being used as a Blazing mage for example, but they still tacked on Atk+6 anyways if her Special is ready during combat. Similarly, they still tacked on true damage on Hauteclere and a few other Slaying Weapons even though it does not work with Galeforce.

Those effects do not push particularly strongly to use those types of specials over others.

The only units I can think of that get Special Spiral variants that work on Galeforce are Yarne and Brave Celica, both of whom get it as specifically to enable Galeforce. It's a very different story.

[XRay]

12 minutes ago, Othin said:

Those effects do not push particularly strongly to use those types of specials over others.

The only units I can think of that get Special Spiral variants that work on Galeforce are Yarne and Brave Celica, both of whom get it as specifically to enable Galeforce. It's a very different story.

I do not see why Special Cooldown count -2 needs to be barred from SS!Ryoma just because it works with Galeforce but the true damage part does not. It provides a lot of flexibility and it works with many builds, and having that flexibility is not the most broken thing either.

Edited February 2, 2021 by XRay

[Othin]

20 minutes ago, XRay said:

I do not see why Special Cooldown count -2 needs to be barred from SS!Ryoma just because it works with Galeforce but the true damage part does not. It provides a lot of flexibility and it works with many builds, and having that flexibility is not the most broken thing either.

Spiral effects don't need to be barred from Ryoma entirely, it just makes sense to lean into a take on it that doesn't encourage skills incompatible with the rest of the skill's effect. That's why I suggested regular Special Spiral.

[XRay]

12 minutes ago, Othin said:

Spiral effects don't need to be barred from Ryoma entirely, it just makes sense to lean into a take on it that doesn't encourage skills incompatible with the rest of the skill's effect. That's why I suggested regular Special Spiral.

I do not see how removing requirements encourages players to run incompatible skills. If anything, less requirements generally means more compatibility. Normal Bushido is not run with Galeforce in the first place anyways, and giving Bushido Special Spiral effect lets players run Bushido with Galeforce if they really want to.

Letting SS!Ryoma run Bushido with Galeforce is not going to break the game or anything. He cannot run Wings of Mercy, Desperation, nor Lunge.

Edited February 2, 2021 by XRay

[Othin]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

I do not see how removing requirements encourages players to run incompatible skills. If anything, less requirements generally means more compatibility. Normal Bushido is not run with Galeforce in the first place anyways, and giving Bushido Special Spiral effect lets players run Bushido with Galeforce if they really want to.

Letting SS!Ryoma run Bushido with Galeforce is not going to break the game or anything. He cannot run Wings of Mercy, Desperation, nor Lunge.

I'm not talking about brokenness, I'm talking about how it would feel to use him. Running Galeforce would mean feeling like you're missing out on the extra damage, and not running Galeforce would mean feeling like you're missing out on a powerful combo. 

For a game like Heroes where there's a great deal of components with specific functionalities, it's best for them to have more clearly defined roles rather than ones that appear to be self-contradictory like that.

[XRay]

3 hours ago, Othin said:

I'm not talking about brokenness, I'm talking about how it would feel to use him. Running Galeforce would mean feeling like you're missing out on the extra damage, and not running Galeforce would mean feeling like you're missing out on a powerful combo. 

For a game like Heroes where there's a great deal of components with specific functionalities, it's best for them to have more clearly defined roles rather than ones that appear to be self-contradictory like that.

That is like saying running a Blazing build on Lysithea makes you feel like you are missing out on that Atk+6. Not all skill effects have to work with every skill set or build. If you are running RS!Lethe as a player phase unit, then you are not going to make much use of the damage reduction.

[Othin]

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

That is like saying running a Blazing build on Lysithea makes you feel like you are missing out on that Atk+6. Not all skill effects have to work with every skill set or build. If you are running RS!Lethe as a player phase unit, then you are not going to make much use of the damage reduction.

You can do builds like that if you want to, it just shouldn't be what the skills appear to be demanding.

[DefyingFates]

Any other upgrade suggestions?

Also, do you think we're getting them two at a time or just one and who do you think would be next?

[Othin]

26 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Any other upgrade suggestions?

Also, do you think we're getting them two at a time or just one and who do you think would be next?

I think two would burn through them too fast. My guess is that they plan to keep doing one per month in the long term, which would let them roughly keep pace with new legendary/mythic additions.

Gunnthra would be the most obvious next one, but I could see Ephraim or maybe Robin if they want to keep playing around with the order. Probably not anyone later just yet.

[Ice Dragon]

My thoughts on the first few Legendaries:

Gunnthra:

• Chilling Seal II: Remove the HP restriction and make the debuff also hit enemies adjacent to the target.
• Fortress Def/Res 3: Pretty obvious choice since it's the natural progression of her existing Fortress Res 3, and I'd rather her get this upgrade instead of something to replace her Ploy skill.

Ephraim:

• Solar Brace II: Add Wrath's Special cooldown reduction at the beginning of each turn, but replace the HP condition with Solo's condition.
• Atk/Def Solo 4: This fits with Flame Siegmund's condition and is a straight-up upgrade to Sturdy Stance 2. Also mirrors Eirika's Atk/Spd Solo.

Robin:

• Dragonskin II: Increase the stat boost to +6 to all stats and add Cancel to differentiate it from Dragonscale's Breath effect.
• Dragon's Ire: The Res Rein skills already have Legendary/Mythic sources, so I'd rather replace her B skill. Dragon's Ire obviously makes sense since Halloween Grima has it.

Lyn:

• Laws of Sacae II: If the skill is going to be dual-phase, just make this skill be straight-up Spectrum Unity. If the skill remains enemy-phase, it needs to block enemy follow-ups and/or nullify enemy bonuses and probably also have its stat boost increased to +5 or +6 in order to seriously compete with other tier 4 skills. Also reduce the condition to only 1 ally within 2 squares instead of 2 allies, like Unity skills.
• Joint Drive Spd: More useful than Spd Tactic 3.
  • Or, if Laws of Sacae II remains enemy-phase only, A/S Far Save 3.

Ryoma:

• Raijinto: Add Slaying effect on refine because normal Ryoma would like it, too.
• Bushido II: Add Dive Bomb.
• Atk/Spd Unity: Better than Kestrel Stance 4. I prefer Unity over Solo for flier teleportation shenanigans.

Hector:

• Ostia's Pulse II: Remove the team composition restriction.
• Ostian Counter: No point upgrading Vengeful Fighter, so we upgrade Distant Counter instead. I don't care that it's not inheritable. This is Hector.

[redlight]

Surprised everyone's saying Fortress Def/Res for Gun and not Fury 4. Slightly less Res, but more attack and speed. Might be fragile after first combat, but that speed and WoM strats help. Couple that with what Ice said about Chilling Seal upgrade.

[XRay]

3 minutes ago, redlight said:

Surprised everyone's saying Fortress Def/Res for Gun and not Fury 4. Slightly less Res, but more attack and speed. Might be fragile after first combat, but that speed and WoM strats help. Couple that with what Ice said about Chilling Seal upgrade.

If people are bringing Gunnthrá into battle, she is probably going to be primarily a debuffer first and combat unit second, so players would probably prioritize her debuffing ability more. But yeah, Fury works too if you want her to lean more towards combat.

[Diovani Bressan]

14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gunnthra:

• Chilling Seal II: Remove the HP restriction and make the debuff also hit enemies adjacent to the target.
• Fortress Def/Res 3: Pretty obvious choice since it's the natural progression of her existing Fortress Res 3, and I'd rather her get this upgrade instead of something to replace her Ploy skill.

I didn't mention the HP requirement in my original post... because I forgot that the skill has a HP requirement. lol

[Ice Dragon]

7 hours ago, redlight said:

Surprised everyone's saying Fortress Def/Res for Gun and not Fury 4. Slightly less Res, but more attack and speed. Might be fragile after first combat, but that speed and WoM strats help. Couple that with what Ice said about Chilling Seal upgrade.

I considered Fury 4, but Blizzard already gives her good offenses for a unit that's intended to be used primarily as a debuffer.

 

5 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I didn't mention the HP requirement in my original post... because I forgot that the skill has a HP requirement. lol

I also forgot it existed before I was looking up all of the skill effects to make my post.

 

And while I'm brainstorming about Chilling Seal, I have an alternative idea for Chilling Seal II that's probably completely busted, but whatever:

Remove the HP restriction. Targeting is changed to the enemy with the lowest Def and all enemies with 3 less Res than Gunnthra.

Basically the original targeting plus the targeting of Sabotage without the adjacency requirement. And then Hrid can get the complement, targeting the enemy with the lowest Res and all enemies with 3 less Def than Hrid.

I still prefer @Diovani Bressan's splash targeting, though. Less likely to be broken, yet still interesting and useful.

[DefyingFates]

On 2/3/2021 at 4:57 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Joint Drive Spd: More useful than Spd Tactic 3.

• Or, if Laws of Sacae II remains enemy-phase only, A/S Far Save 3.

The Saves are confirmed to be for Armors only, so Joint Drive Spd it is I suppose.

On 2/3/2021 at 4:57 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Ostian Counter: No point upgrading Vengeful Fighter, so we upgrade Distant Counter instead. I don't care that it's not inheritable. This is Hector.

This is a pretty good argument to make for Hector, so if Laws of Sacae becomes a Dual Phase skill maybe Lyn could get Sacae's Blessing too?

On 2/3/2021 at 4:57 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Solar Brace II: Add Wrath's Special cooldown reduction at the beginning of each turn, but replace the HP condition with Solo's condition.

How would you change Lunar Brace, if you've thought about that too? I really like all of your suggestions!

And regarding the others: I really like the idea of Lucina getting Atk/Spd Link built into Future Vision too. It'd be a very clever way of utilizing her (and Chrom's) niche. Speaking of Chrom though, how many of the Legendary Heroes do you think they're going to buff? I personally think they're going to stop right before Azura. L!Roy might be an exception, but Azura and everyone after her have aged pretty well in my eyes.

[Ice Dragon]

22 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

How would you change Lunar Brace, if you've thought about that too?

Literally just the exact same thing as I gave to Solar Brace. I like my related skills to be consistent.

 

27 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Speaking of Chrom though, how many of the Legendary Heroes do you think they're going to buff? I personally think they're going to stop right before Azura. L!Roy might be an exception, but Azura and everyone after her have aged pretty well in my eyes.

I think Roy is probably okay as is for the time being. His only real flaw is that his weapon hasn't aged well, given that it's just a Distant Counter weapon with effective damage, and we literally just got Valfleche with Close Counter, effective damage, and Spectrum Solo.

Stopping at Hrid is probably reasonable for now for Legendaries. There's not really much you can do to Azura to improve her kit, and Gray Waves certainly doesn't need a buff.

For Mythics, I think the first four could be argued for getting buffs (Eir, Duma, Yune, and Naga). The rest are fine as is for now.

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Literally just the exact same thing as I gave to Solar Brace. I like my related skills to be consistent.

 

I think Roy is probably okay as is for the time being. His only real flaw is that his weapon hasn't aged well, given that it's just a Distant Counter weapon with effective damage, and we literally just got Valfleche with Close Counter, effective damage, and Spectrum Solo.

Stopping at Hrid is probably reasonable for now for Legendaries. There's not really much you can do to Azura to improve her kit, and Gray Waves certainly doesn't need a buff.

For Mythics, I think the first four could be argued for getting buffs (Eir, Duma, Yune, and Naga). The rest are fine as is for now.

For Azura, they could leave her prfs alone and just give her stuff like some picks from Atk/Spd Push 4, Wings of Mercy 3, or Hone Atk 4. Wouldn't be very significant, but it'd let them say they did something.