Shipping Mafia - Rule 9a invoked for universal loss

[scorri]

So, first off, I'm going to assume that this part:

My reasons for not taking my vote off scorri

should read

My reasons for not taking my vote off SB

cause otherwise I'm going to be confused.

Moving past that,

Regarding the post I've quoted, you present my arguments in an excessively confusing manner. I had decent reasons to think SB was scum at the time of posting, my devil's-advocate arguments for town!SB weren't solid, and I didn't have better scumreads, so I felt I had reason enough to keep the vote on him. Further, I did not "agree with SB but maybe not" -- I was citing the sources of my feelings about Ether, and I don't see how that's scummy. Was this post meant to be accusatory? I honestly don't understand what it's trying to accomplish starting at the words "You, on the other hand" -- the last sentence especially, since its first two points are redundant and the last one is misrepresentative.

Alright, lets see.

SB's improved a bit in my eyes due to activity and his language. I know these reasons are kind of vague, which is why I'm not taking my vote off of him right now.

To me, this reads as you saying that the only reason you're not taking your vote off of SB is that your reasons for feeling that he's probably town were weak. That doesn't read to me as if you still think he might be scum. You then say you don't have any better scumreads, but in the next sentence of the post where you say you aren't sure about SB being scum anymore, you say that you're scumreading me. Which is it?

I agree with SB that Ether's content warrants some suspicion, but SB telegraphed that he was looking after Ether -- not sure what to make of that exactly.

The way I read this is : "I agree with SB, but SB was being way obvious that he was looking after Ether, so I'm not sure I should agree with SB." If I misinterpreted that, I'm sorry, but that's how it reads to me.

Honestly, though, I have demonstrated activity if not content, and you've said that content is hard to come by right now.

5 posts, especially when two of the posts are essentially empty isn't exactly demonstrating content.

Addressed all of this above, except for the bit where you seem to misrep me by saying "[he] currently has his vote on someone he claimed he no longer was viewing as scummy" when what I said was "SB's improved a bit in my eyes". Did you get that out of me agreeing with him about Ether?

Me not commenting on the people who were talking about knowing their alignment or not N0 isn't scummy if you mean I didn't join in a speculative discussion, since one didn't exist -- my impetus for saying what I did was that people were assuming contradictory things and it seemed like something that would cause problems down the road. If you mean that I didn't talk about my reads on people then it's redundant and I've tried to explain my lack of reads earlier in this post.

You said that you had one reason for not unvoting SB and that was because your reasons for feeling better about him were vague. Once again, to me, that reads as you finding him town now but not being 100% sure why.

I'm not talking about joining in speculative discussion, because you did. You were talking about the idea of alignments existing on N0. I'm talking about the fact that you didn't talk about the people.

[Strege]

So, first off, I'm going to assume that this part:

should read

cause otherwise I'm going to be confused.

Moving past that,

Alright, lets see.

To me, this reads as you saying that the only reason you're not taking your vote off of SB is that your reasons for feeling that he's probably town were weak. That doesn't read to me as if you still think he might be scum. You then say you don't have any better scumreads, but in the next sentence of the post where you say you aren't sure about SB being scum anymore, you say that you're scumreading me. Which is it?

The way I read this is : "I agree with SB, but SB was being way obvious that he was looking after Ether, so I'm not sure I should agree with SB." If I misinterpreted that, I'm sorry, but that's how it reads to me.

5 posts, especially when two of the posts are essentially empty isn't exactly demonstrating content.

You said that you had one reason for not unvoting SB and that was because your reasons for feeling better about him were vague. Once again, to me, that reads as you finding him town now but not being 100% sure why.

I'm not talking about joining in speculative discussion, because you did. You were talking about the idea of alignments existing on N0. I'm talking about the fact that you didn't talk about the people.

That was an error, and should have read "My reasons for not taking my suspicion off of scorri".

If I didn't think SB was scummy you were still a decent scumread from my perspective, and I would have moved the vote, for what its worth. It was a weak scumread, but it was my best one except for you, from whom I was waiting on content. That should address what I think you're pointing out as a contradiction too.

I explained my agreeing with SB about Ether as best as I can. If someone thinks that's bad practice, they'll have to explain to me why (though OC's probably a better time for that).

I used that sentence construction badly. I meant "Though I have not demonstrated content, I have demonstrated activity." My content has been poor because I've really been having trouble getting reads on people.

[scorri]

Also, Strege, care to share why you're still voting SB after the watcher claim?

[Strege]

##Unvote:

I still feel kind of uneasy about SB but I don't see too much reason in keeping my vote on him at the moment.

My new vote is gonna go here:

##Vote: Balcerzak

After a very lengthy post he dropped his vote down on me for what looks like pressure and his thought that I was contradicting myself which a lot of people say I did so I would say that's justified.(I still say I didn't.)

However directly before he posted I had posted and he followed it up by mentioning that he noticed he was cut by me and that he would address it later. Then he commented about how BBM had been pushing me the entire time but not pushing me, which seems to me as if he was trying to put suspicions onto BBM.

Since this, two whole days ago, he hasn't posted once. He did not address my post. He hasn't been here to post anything at all. I understand that people can and will be busy but I feel like he's more or less skimming by at the moment and I don't like that.

Are you actually referring to this post? Two posts down we get the redaction. That seems like an extremely weak move if putting suspicion on BBM was his goal. What circumstances make this not a misrep on your part?

Well fuck you Ima condemn you.

Jkilu

At the moment I don't know. Watchers have been scum plenty but since I'm still more gut based on SB I'd probably prefer to lynch Kay > SB.

Just a reminder of rule 4: roles don't indicate alignment.

Also, Strege, care to share why you're still voting SB after the watcher claim?

I'm still reading stuff, and a few people seem to have an aversion to empty unvotes. My scumread on him has been weakening as his activity has increased, and if it helps any: ##Unvote (SB) for now. However, I don't understand how we're going to prove his role, or his alignment for that matter. I wouldn't think that a watcher claim is as solid as a vig claim. Even with rule 4 I'm willing to accept that vig is probably town, because otherwise town would need some really powerful roles for the game to be balanced. I don't understand why claiming watcher gets SB towncred in this game though.

[Shinori]

Duh.

[charlie_]

Clipsey's put in town watchers in the past (one of my crumbs referenced schoolteacher, where I got lynched as watcher.)

Even if I was scum, Manix getting blocked/redirected would lead to at least one antitown death.

[Balcerzak]

In which I continue to plunge forward. Bear with me.

Elie #148:

I disagree that manix misrepped scorri. That was a clear scorri defend on ether's decision to not RVS, imo.

Also, I honestly disagree that Manix, if anyone, was the one slipping in the BBM vs Shinori back and forth (regarding town, etc. N0 alignment).

SB #152 puts together a collection of Ether analysis, based off past iso material. I'm not sure if my Ether meta is interfering with things too much, but I don't have scum read or see scum intent in what he's done yet, and don't really think this is a strong case. I can agree Ether hasn't been a bastion of solid pro-town play this game, though.

BBM #159 is an interesting analysis of Strege, who I've been finding really hard to read all game. I wouldn't honestly say he's done anything lynchworthy, yet, but I will try to have another solid look. Hopefully this generates additional content from him for references.

Shinori #165. Fully justified to place pressure on me, my only defense is to move forward. If you want, I can give you the specifics of why my Sunday, Monay, and Tuesdays are usually week after week IRL busy, but in the absence of any external corroboration (which is basically impossible) that's just so much irrelevant fluff.

Cam #167. Complete fucking mess. RTE should be disabled by default, holy shit. thank god it's cleaned up in #172. I don't know if Grassbridger was intentionally trying to misrep Manix like Cam suggests might be the case, especially because Manix was working to get us out of RVS quickly, accusing him of trying to put us back in RVS feels really "off" to me regardless. Also pressures Ether a bit about his votes. Pleased to see some content finally coming in from Cam.

Grassbridger #175.

Agree with some defenses (particularly vs some of the recent cam push). But I still dislike some of the focus on Manix. Yes, Manix hasn't found somebody to latch onto like a bulldog at this point, and has a lot of low content posts, indibidually. However, he helps to keep the pulse of the game moving forward, especially in more dead periods. What discussion was there that "explain RVS" was taking away from. It was in the dead of the night, and he was multiposting himself to get things out there to look at, calling out ideas as he was thinking of them. While that partcular approach was probably fruitless, it was easily enough ignored if irrelevant. Honestly, your two main scumreads (SB and Manix) as high on my list of town reads, so that really makes me uncomfortable.

Cam #177

fuck, says a lot of what I just did, I'm wasting my time typing.

Grassbridger #181. I think this is the big defense post he was alluding too that I hadn't seen when I made my first post earlier. It honestly doesn't seem that impressive to me. First he goes back to SB's #103. SB 103 said his main problem with Shinori was Shinori was being "useless, not just inactive", which is from how he described it what I would call active lurking. He than said Shinori had improved, but admittedly didn't point out specific contributing posts. He then went on to say there were still things that bothered him about Shinori, which is what Grassbridger latched onto. Yeah, it probably wasn't the best play on SB's part, as it is kind of one of those classic distancing techniques, but a lot of time town try to distance themselves too, not just scum. Nobody likes being tied to bad wagon drive results, after all.

I think this is the first time I saw an accusation of actual misrep over the xinnidy explanation interaction, which admittedly I think I didn't take much note of the first time around. Your previous discussion (as found in ISO (which brought me back to #107). While you did have some justification/explanation laid out in your #95, I don't think Bananas alternate interpretation in his initial vote #103 was off, or even if so, egregiously so. Still, it feels like you're finally attempting to address individual planks of his case against you, which is good, even if it had to wait this long to finally show up.

Cam has back and forth up through #188 that is leaning positive, but perhaps this is a colored impression in comparison with his early performance. I'll have to try to look at it in a vacuum and see how much first impressions are clouding my judgement.

Manix #194, he wakes up and takes a look at Eli. I'm gonna take a break here, it's almost 3 am, and I want to fool around for a bit before bed so I don't dream of mafia

[Strege]

Elie, why are you still voting Manix, since your last post implied you no longer thought he was scum?

Looking at Ether's posts, his first vote is for Grass. He votes him due to being part of the votepile on Manix, but never really explains why the votepile is bad in the first place, or why Grass is worse than the other people who voted for him. After that he votes me for harping too much about Shinori lying, but other than that being sort of a misrep, he also says later that his latter votes don't really mean much, and also doesn't really comment on much of anything, just handwaving it as a misunderstanding.

If the post I am quoting was presenting your newly developed opinion of Ether, what made you okay with lynching Ether before it in this post?

Some of Elie's arguments seem scummy to me -- I'll cite specific things after I get some sleep because it's really late, but in general I think he's been presenting his arguments more strongly than their supporting evidence deserves. Ether and Cam are both denigrating their ability to read people and have pretty flexible positions, giving them a lot of outs, which I don't like a lot. I need to reread my recent back-and-forth with scorri to see if differences in opinion account for every discrepancy I found; I would ask that she answer the question I posed to her in my long post, since it wasn't actually rhetorical. I still don't like that she's only really pushed Shinori and I to the exclusion of everyone else (I'm similarly guilty but that doesn't make it not scummy; it just means I'm not good at being town). Kay's content has also been pretty sparse. I understand why she would hold onto the Shinori vote (although I wouldn't vote him right now) but I'd like to see different reads.

Also, Xinnidy's ISO doesn't work for me. If this is a shared problem could someone please flag down eclipse with some bold text?

[Strege]

Clipsey's put in town watchers in the past (one of my crumbs referenced schoolteacher, where I got lynched as watcher.)

Even if I was scum, Manix getting blocked/redirected would lead to at least one antitown death.

Sorry, I don't understand the second line. Might just be because it's late.

[eclipse]

asdfajwelralkjdfskajf;LAKJFDAIOEJ;ALSDJF;ALJ!!!

I'll see if I can fix the damn thing before I go berserk.

[eclipse]

I've kicked the damn thing into submission, for now.

This game is now known as The Stupid ISO Mafia, and the URL parser is scum

[Grassbridger]

Grassbridger #175.

Honestly, your two main scumreads (SB and Manix) as high on my list of town reads, so that really makes me uncomfortable.

If it helps, my one game of history on SF (Avatar) shows that I'm really bad at scumhunting. I had zero correct scumreads over 4 days that game. That said, I'm flexible and willing to change my opinion as new evidence dictates... I've gone back and forth on Manix like four times now.

As for the rest of your points against me... sounds like you're on the "your reads disagree with mine so I'm nervous" line. I can see why Manix is reading town, but honestly have no idea why SB was reading town before his claim.

[Shinori]

##Unvote:

With balc actually doing things I'm fine with leaving him as is for now.

Gonna reread and drop another vote later in the day.

[Kay]

I'm still reading stuff, and a few people seem to have an aversion to empty unvotes.

That's a bad reason for not unvoting him. Townies should focus on getting the people they think are scum lynched, not on looking like town. And keeping your vote on someone you don't want lynched won't help with that.

I used that sentence construction badly. I meant "Though I have not demonstrated content, I have demonstrated activity." My content has been poor because I've really been having trouble getting reads on people.

The point of activity is content. Most people can post lots of fluff, but that doesn't help anything.

However, I don't understand how we're going to prove his role, or his alignment for that matter. I wouldn't think that a watcher claim is as solid as a vig claim.

Simple. SB outs his results, people call him on it if it contradicts what they did, or if he's picking weird targets or something. So, if SB targets someone who probably no one else is going to target, he looks bad, because as scum he could fake a result more easily that way. If he claims someone else targeted or didn't target someone falsely, we can catch him lying. Sure, we're not as likely to be able to prove it immediately, but it isn't that easy a role to fake, either.

If it helps, my one game of history on SF (Avatar) shows that I'm really bad at scumhunting. I had zero correct scumreads over 4 days that game. That said, I'm flexible and willing to change my opinion as new evidence dictates... I've gone back and forth on Manix like four times now.

No, self-meta doesn't help.

[CT075]

Honestly, though, I have demonstrated activity if not content, and you've said that content is hard to come by right now.

this comes across as really defensive

I don't blame you for finding my posts kind of scummy but unless I missed something all of your reasoning for lynching me are based on general tone and inactivity. Do you have any better argument against me? Do you have any better reason to lynch anyone?

"yeah i've been scummy but do you have a better reason to lynch me?"

more in a bit

(PEDIT: if you're not using the rich text editor, you can post-preview by turning it back on for a moment to make sure your quotes lined up properly)

[Elieson]

A lot of content to sift through now; let me know if I miss anything.

I was mostly referring to you saying Shinori was pushing BBM, which I didn't see, and after going through your ISO about three times I just noticed that you actually addressed that. Wow. That was dumb and I shouldn't have written it. That said, I didn't like your vote on Shinori in this post because your questions were fairly redundant, which is one technique to artificially inflate one's reasoning, and because of the finality of the last sentence, which indicated that you weren't open to voting for other scumreads (you still seem excessively focused on Shinori and on me, the only person pressuring you if I'm not mistaken).

Regarding the post I've quoted, you present my arguments in an excessively confusing manner. I had decent reasons to think SB was scum at the time of posting, my devil's-advocate arguments for town!SB weren't solid, and I didn't have better scumreads, so I felt I had reason enough to keep the vote on him. Further, I did not "agree with SB but maybe not" -- I was citing the sources of my feelings about Ether, and I don't see how that's scummy. Was this post meant to be accusatory? I honestly don't understand what it's trying to accomplish starting at the words "You, on the other hand" -- the last sentence especially, since its first two points are redundant and the last one is misrepresentative.

My reasons for not taking my vote off scorri, being uncertain about SB, and agreeing with SB's points are mentioned above. I didn't vote SB just for focusing on Cam; he had no other reads, which many other people did, didn't contribute anything to the discussion of Cam, which other people did, and otherwise seemed to be contributing the bare minimum of inconspicuous town participation. I remember you (it might have been someone else) reading his disagreement with Grassbridger's logic in this post as him expressing suspicion of Grassbridger -- I don't read it that way. Cam wasn't making an effort to blend in, but scorri and SB seemed to be. Also, I don't think me asking simple questions is scummy. At best I'm not really gaining any towncred for activity and at worst I'm being slightly obtrusive. I was trying to get some reads by reading through old stuff and making sure I understood what was being said, at least on a superficial level. My inactivity is a legitimate point against me. All I can say is that I was trying to produce reads and, as people have mentioned, D1 hasn't been giving them up easily.

Bleh quotes suck. When I said "SB telegraphed that he was looking after Ether -- not sure what to make of that exactly" I was referring to you saying something along the lines of "I'm going to read Ether's ISO" and then coming back with a huge post about you reading Ether as scum. I realized that series of events could suggest confirmation bias if you were town, but was hoping someone could chime in with input on if that actually affected a scumread. I still don't know, and I'll still solicit analysis, but I've given up trying to figure that out since it doesn't seem like a huge deal.

I've tried to avoid meta thus far because it feels weird and cheaty, but if my apprehension to post is indicative to you of me being scum you should skim the Avatar game (the only other game I've played on here). I was town but I got voted late D1 for weird sporadic posting and... oh.

Honestly, though, I have demonstrated activity if not content, and you've said that content is hard to come by right now.

I was suspicious of BBM because of his level of confidence when we didn't know anything. I identified two modes of play and chose one, which I've admitted I did poorly. I don't think the confidence thing is scummy, especially not after a few pages early in the phase, but it was weird so I pushed it.

I don't blame you for finding my posts kind of scummy but unless I missed something all of your reasoning for lynching me are based on general tone and inactivity. Do you have any better argument against me? Do you have any better reason to lynch anyone?

Addressed all of this above, except for the bit where you seem to misrep me by saying "[he] currently has his vote on someone he claimed he no longer was viewing as scummy" when what I said was "SB's improved a bit in my eyes". Did you get that out of me agreeing with him about Ether?

Me not commenting on the people who were talking about knowing their alignment or not N0 isn't scummy if you mean I didn't join in a speculative discussion, since one didn't exist -- my impetus for saying what I did was that people were assuming contradictory things and it seemed like something that would cause problems down the road. If you mean that I didn't talk about my reads on people then it's redundant and I've tried to explain my lack of reads earlier in this post.

Hopefully I didn't miss anything in regard to defending myself. Sorry for the wall of text. I'll give the thread another read and return with some proper reads.

Most of this post is defense, rather than scumHUNTING. god damn why does my autocorrect capitalize that? it's not a panicky defense but it's self justification over and over again and is bringing absolutely nothing to the table.

My thoughts on Grass are too disorganized (see my Mafia.txt Postgame for why), but I can see Strege being scum simply out of repetitive defense being his primary form of contribution.

##Vote Strege

[BBM]

I agree with what Elie said in his last post- Strege just had an activity burst that was still devoid of content. He also asks people to give him a pass because he's at least shown activity, if not content. Other than the fact that before this recent burst, he hadn't really shown activity, the point about activity w/o content is exactly what he used to pressure both SB and Scorri, so I can't understand why he'd think it a measure of towniness.

[Elieson]

Wow actually I think I misrep'd him off of just a few of his more recent posts. Lemme break it down more accurately.

Post 1: RVS on BBM and standard "don't share info" blurb

Post 2: Picks SB out of a hat and votes for him for a reason that various players are responsible for apparently. Really wishy washy reasoning to back up that vote.

Post 3: Suddenly, a day later, brings a decent question to the table on his vote. Hasn't taken his eyes off of SB (and to a lesser extent, Scorri).

Post 4: Again, wishy washy defense of his RVS vote, and while his suspicions vanish on SB, he doesn't switch his vote to Scorri, his alleged scumread.

Post 5: Self pity Defenses up the ying yang.

Post 6: still suspects Scorri for reasoning that was like 48+ hrs ago, but keeps his vote on the improving SB, along with more defense.

Post 7: a decent question regarding Shinori, then mysteriously unvoted SB (his prime scumread, who I forgot why you thought he was scummy tbh) maybe the first actual Scumhunt attempt since your case in your second post.

Post 8: suspects me (For apparenty misrepping), Scorri (Shinori tunnel? And Strege defends himself while making this argument), Kay (same sorta thing), Cam and Ether (2confusing). Nothig is really voted or backed by evidence except his Scorri read from early game. Mixed in various self-defenses within his weak "scumreads" paragraph.

Post 9: eh doesn't seem to mean anything specific

[Elieson]

Yea a slightly pokey early phase, and a really really "guys give me a break" late phase.

I don't think I really misrep'd him, after an analysis of his posts.

[charlie_]

scorri hasn't been tunneling on Shinori, that's Kay.

Actually, Kay mentioned she was suspicious of BBM early, and barely touched on it later.

Also, no, I don't particularly think it's a bus, but I do think it's likely that one of you is

That, and this from her last post makes me feel like she's trying to drag Shinori and BBM into a 1v1, but hasn't touched on why she finds BBM scummy past her first post.

That, and I don't have a clue what her reads are aside from Shinori right now.

##Unvote

##Vote: Kay

What are they, Kay?

[BBM]

Kay also seems to be lining up lynches, so she can go for Shinori today and me tomorrow. Why exactly do you think that one of me or Shinori are scum, Kay?

[Strege]

I don't understand what's scummy about defending yourself when you have the most votes on you. My defense against Manix used terrible logic, though.

When I said I was suspicious of Elie I was looking at the back end of this post. It comes across as pretty dismissive of Manix's arguments and provides evidence that really looks like it was gathered after the fact. I think Manix's defense was solid and Elie doesn't provide an alternative interpretation of his evidence -- granted, he was busy right then and then Manix claimed, but there was no suggestion that he wanted to clarify his thoughts. I'm also mildly suspicious any time someone uses the structure where they ask a series of redundant or difficult-to-directly-answer questions and then accuses their accuser of something (see my defense against scorri). Elie hasn't updated his opinion of SB, has mixed feelings about Grassbridger (which is fine but doesn't contribute), and he misreps me as if he was skimming in this post.

I don't like Cam and Ether's behaviour but I'm having trouble distinguishing between scumminess and apathy, which they've both expressed to D1 at least. I can't find a place where they misrep or tunnel excessively, but they're not scumhunting a lot and my point about them degrading their own ability to scumhunt should not be confusing -- it's an easy excuse for sparse or inaccurate reads (a few people, myself included, have said that reads are hard to come by this game but that is pretty clearly different from saying you can't get good reads in general). I'm more inclined to think Ether is scum because I feel he's been reaching a lot to defend himself without progressing the town wincon. The end of this post by him also bothers me because he says that he would just like to survive until D2, but only to try out his ability (?). I'd actually like some clarification of that, so ##Vote: Ether

When I read Kay's ISO before I didn't recognize that she was applying pressure elsewhere, but it seems she was, so my previous comment is null.

[Strege]

That's a bad reason for not unvoting him. Townies should focus on getting the people they think are scum lynched, not on looking like town. And keeping your vote on someone you don't want lynched won't help with that.

I wasn't (and am still not) sure if the aversion to empty unvotes is because they are scummy or because its bad practice to not have your vote doing something, even if that thing is marginal. BBM's attitude in this post implied the latter to me, and I didn't want to vote someone else until I organized my thoughts.

[BBM]

Only defending yourself is scummy because you're not making an effort to progress the town wincon, just to keep yourself alive. However, you seem to have taken some efforts to remedy that, so ##Unvote, ##Vote: Kay. I think I feel okay with this.

[Grace]

Hi I'm here finally and HOLY BAL WALLS

anyway I still wanna lynch Strege because his reaction to the votes on him was scummy imo ("I've done stuff! Honest!" - tl;dr of his reaction) and further content still reads iffy

also warning: i'm probably gonna be busy today so i'll only be popping in from time to time