Drafters Mafia Game Thread - GAME OVER

[Shinori]

Oh yeah I'm not moving my vote from marth today so we should just get on this lynch. This is scum.

[Bluedoom]

##Unvote ##Vote: Kirsche

yeah better this than someone who tunnles for fuck knows why

[eclipse]

(mod magically appears)

I HAVE HAD ENOUGH HEADACHES WITH MASQUERADE, PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL IN HERE.

(mod disappears)

[Bluedoom]

Yeah I agree with this. Prims really doesn't seem scummy right now. I just haven't unvoted because I'm too lazy...

##Unvote

hrrrm

bear strikes me as scummy because see, his ACTIVITY is definitely there but see, some posts are really... they sound like noobscum to me. Lesse, that post right up there? I don't believe laziness is a good excuse my boy. After the prims unvote there's a string of posts where you defend players' behvaiours and question the 'vigshot.' But then you vote Breezy which is hypocritical considering I've not been seeing you trying to actively find scum prior to that.

tl;dr version: Filler posts, single-read focus, and is hypocritical when he does it.

[Bluedoom]

anyway Breezy should fullclaim because " BBM didn't visit anyone N0" is vague and doesn't tell us if you're a tracker or you have a limited shot of it along with something else.

@Rapier: I think you're making a big deal about the stuff that happened b/w pages 5 and 8 but its alright, cuz we'll be needing an update from you... inb4youflake.

[Bluedoom]

also ##Unvote ##Vote: Bearclaw

gosh when you read a whole darn thread new things pop up all the time

[BBM]

Okay, so going through D1, my top two reads are Kirsche and Elie.

All Kirsche really did on D1 was talk about Elie's reaction testing. I agree that it was bad, but Kirsche made no attempt to analyze any of Elie's other content and try to find something bad in that as well, which I really dislike. Other than that, the wording of the reads he gives on the D1 wagons at the end is really non-committal; a lot is prefaced with "not sure", and his reason for choosing Marth is also pretty half-assed. His response to Prims talking about the shallowness of his Elie read also misses the point completely. He snarkily apologizes for not having an in-depth ED1 read, but the point is that he's carrying that flimsy ED1 read all the way to the end of late D1, where it's no longer acceptable.

So yeah, ##Vote: Kirsche until he gives a proper read on anybody at all.

Elie's RVS was pretty bad IMO, several of his first votes were in that gray area between RVS and seriousness where you can put down a vote and follow it up later if you need to, but then also retract it as "just RVS" if you start getting heat for it. I also didn't like his reaction testing, he spent a lot of time confusing the shit out of people to state in the end that he didn't get anything at all from anybody.

Additionally, his Darros vote was really weak. Literally all he says about Darros is in 81, 122, and 208. 81 is just him saying that Darros is hard defending Terra, which he even admits as reaching. Except defending someone means nothing without a flip of the person being defended. 122 is calling Darros out for not letting people answer questions directed towards them. This is bad play on Darros's part, because it prevents people from getting reactions from the people to whom the questions were originally addressed. However, what's scummy about it? There's not much scum motive in that. In fact, scum would probably want to let a new town player answer questions for themselves, since there's a chance they might overreact and look scummy because of not being used to pressure. 208 isn't even his own point, just him agreeing with SSG about Darros having a limited focus. But there were other people (coughcoughkirschecoughCOUGH) whose reads were far more limited, so this isn't much either. Anything else Elie says is just him saying Darros is his top scumread, despite the limited analysis of him. At no point does he ever look at Darros's reads and content. His D1 feels like an easy votepark on someone who wasn't really there that much, tbh. He talked a lot more about anyone else he said anything about at all, so his Darros read and vote feels really bad in comparison. My gut is that he didn't actually think the Darros wagon would take off, so it was a safe vote while he pushed other people for the most part.

Didn't really think Marth's D1 was bad, but his posts this phase have hopped around an awful lot. Three votes in around five hours is ehhh. And I think Breezy did claim Tracker, btw.

Breezy was bad on D1, but as I said earlire, if he can prove legitimate Tracker results on somebody else, he's almost certainly town.

[Elieson]

Hey guys still at work. I passed out earlier, (in the kitchen) so I'm just cleaning up and heading home. I'll try to fork something out in an hour, but I'll have more dedicated time tomorrow wen I'm healthy a rested.

[Da Bear]

So here's what I got from ISOs: (I'm pretty tired right now so this might not be that good but I think it would be good to do some stuff... especially when I realized a lot of Marth's post about me is true)

Shin: 5 posts in the entire game. His posts look okay at worst to me though (at least his first one does), he mentions a lot of stuff and his opinions with his first post but then he sort of narrows out into an argument with Rapier. Not really sure about him... leaning town.

Shin(ori): Seems to single out Marth in a game full of lurking/coasting. Not sure how I feel about that. His ISO is mainly Marth-related but he's got some other stuff. Nothing that looks like scumhunting (to me) at least. Shinori what do you think about non-Marth peoples?

Marth: Starts with a sheepy JB vote if we lynched sheepiness everyone (except Elie, BBM and Strege would probably be dead his main focus after that seems to be SSG but he talks about Shinori and Rapier as well. Then today he votes me, for admittedly Not really thinking he's scummy atm.

Scorri: Starts out with an Eli vote because of the fake vig, I don't really like that. Going forward it's mainly anti-Breezy stuff but she mentions Kirsche's lack of activity and comments on the wagons with her last post. Not liking her much so far. Her votes seem to have poor reasoning behind them like mine, I'm a complete hypocrite.

BBM: I'll get back to you later on this guy. I've seriously got nothing worth saying.

Rapier: Not really sure what he's doing... Like Shinori he's against Marth. His weirdest thing was saying that Shinori's vote on Marth was bad and then defending Shinori's reasoning in his next post (he explained this but I still don't like it). He then switched to Marth because of a lack of content. Not liking him.

Terrador: I have no opinion on this guy. Might get one later

Elieson: I honestly wasn't seeing any scum intent behind the fake vig and the rest looks pretty good. I'd say he's on my townread list.

Breezy: See what I said last phase.

Strege: I think he's town. His ISO looks pretty good. (which is a lot in this game)

Skyward: Not liking him at all. His posts don't appear to scumhunt at all and he spends almost all of his posts voting people for sheeping (me and Breezy) or defending himself.

Kirsche: Not liking his posts either.

So yeah. I'm a complete hypocrite.

I'll read the thread instead of ISOs tomorrow. (Sorry if this was bad, I'm exhausted)

[BBM]

Bearclaw is also sort of bad. His reactions to Prims's "serious" RVS vote on him were a bit jumpy, though that could be explained through being new. What sticks out more with him is his stance on Shinori. He literally says that Shinori being scummy is not scummy for Shinori. There are good uses of meta, but that is not one of them. You use meta to differentiate between town and mafia play for a person. If Shinori is scummy as both town and mafia, then saying he's town based off him being scummy is a bad reason for defending him. His only real read is Breezy, which is okay I suppose.

cut by him, in which he seems to forget his earlier statement about Shinori? A lot of his reads don't really follow directly from the reasoning he gives, which combined with him being a new player, gives me the feeling that most of them are gut based (a nulltell). A bunch of them are null too.

It's also a personal pet peeve of mine when people strike out self-deprecating statements (both him and Terra are guilty of this).

[Bluedoom]

@BBM: Correction,by three votes votes in 5 hours, you mean 3 votes in 5 (actually 6)posts? The time difference between my votes overall is about an hour.

[BBM]

No, I meant hours. Switching your opinion every hour with very little input from other people is offputting. You misread Shinori, but literally nobody said anything about Kirsche or Bearclaw to prompt that switch. Why do you think that Bearclaw is worse than Kirsche?

Also I think people went way overboard with spec about why I got kidnapped. Personally I assumed it was because I'm the spammiest/most active poster in the game since Manix is sitting this one out. Me getting kidnapped isn't exactly a point in my favour, but I don't see how it makes me scummy either.

[Bluedoom]

Well its possible for me to change my opinion since I hadn't finished reading the thread. I think my case on bearclaw is stronger since he's done more active lurking han kirsche and has more relevant posts to go off of.

[BBM]

I'm going to disagree with that, actually. A great deal of Bearclaw's posts were in the (extremely long) RVS period, and his Breezy vote at the end of D1 was at least based off stuff from later in the day rather than Kirsche stubbornly clinging to an RVS case. Bearclaw is also new, for whatever that's worth.

[Terrador]

Aight guys, just got home from dinner with da uncle/aunt/cousin, and DA WIFE isn't available tonight, sadly, sooo I think I'm going to trawl through ISOs and rehash/add on to reads for everybody. Expect a post in about an hour? Sounds good.

Also, FYI: Breezy said he was on his phone recently, and has been gone from Shinvel as well; I'd personally give him another 24 hours or so to pull something up. If not, then we can start getting suspicious, but otherwise, I don't see him as anything but truthful townie.

[Elieson]

ok I'm home but I feel absolutely terrible.

Quick thoughts: SSG was sort of a lesser scumspect (fmpov anyway) so I suspect that Prims may have seen this and shot her, and that it occurred pre-mafia kill (as I have yet to see a game where Vig's are outsped by scum).

Anywho;

Interesting things I noticed during Night phase:

Being distracting is not exactly pro-town and by not commenting on anything else it means that I have nothing significant to say on anything else. Neither did scorri who you seem to have just ignored even though she was in the same boat as I was when you made that post (granted she's posted now, but you still chose to overlook her in favour of me).

This is not in other people's cases and is in fact my reason for retaining my vote. I agreed with what you said and found it vote worthy and so I voted. I kept my vote because it was a dumb reaction test that wasn't helping town. 'Derping around for the sake of discussion' is dumb too because it's just an excuse to play badly and get away with it.

For the record, I'd love to see you point out the part where people were doing things in order to promote pro-town discussion. If you can clearly present where I was distracting town from entering discussion, please do. In the meantime, I'll go pop some popcorn, because if I recall, the topics at the time were complete and utter crap to begin with.

Apologies for not having an in-depth read on someone ED1.

If it wasn't obvious I'm lynching him based purely on role alone. I basically chose the scummiest role out of him and Breezy. Not sure if I like lynching someone who's unclaimed and I'm not sure if it's particularly scummy to overreact to JB taking Prims seriously.

Self-Pity aside (second offense from Kirsche that I can think of, possibly third), the "HEY GAIS IM LYNCH MARTH BECUS ROLL" is a pretty shit shitty shit argument. Number 1, scum trackers can theoretically exist just as easily as scum amnesiacs (or fakeclaims of them anyway).

---

I see Eli.

Changing topic a bit, what would your opinions be if BBM kidnapped himself to get out of being here for D1, because I might have some insight into that.

well, if the kidnapper is a scum role in this game which it probably is, I'd say BBM is scum which does us no good here as he must have kidnapped himself to not be here or something to that effect.

Or maybe BBM is scum and NOT kidnapper and a scum decided to kidnap him to prevent a mafia lynch day 1?

This series of posts concerns me. Breezy seems pretty darn sure of kidnapper being scum, and while I'm not sure if BBM could've kidnapped himself, (generally people can't self-target), I can see him trying to set up something later regarding a scum!kidnapper being lynched and throwing a (more likely town)!BBM under the bus in the case of a flip. If he is indeed tracker, I'd like to see 1: Results from last night, and 2: reasons why he targetted whomever he targetted.

...

...

...

Actually, this perplexes me. Why did scum opt to shoot SSG (or Prims, I dunno wtf actually happened) when there was a claimed tracker and claimed Amnesiac out?

---

kirsche: that doesn't definitively prove, because Breezy could (probably accurately) guess that BBM couldn't do anything last night, if the kidnap had higher priority than his night action. At least one more night will be necessary for anything approaching confirmation.

Rapier, two quick things:

Just a heads-up, in case you missed it: Darrps isn't going to be around until Day 2. Let's put a pin in that and talk to him about it later, non?

Also... how does being an amnesiac mean nothing? Assuming that he genuinely is who he claims to be (doubtful), it certainly matters. Having an extra power role? Erm, yes please, if he really is who he says to be. I agree that Bluedoom is worth lynching, since I highly doubt he's telling the truth, but I don't agree with that piece of your logic.

This series of posts has me more concerned. Why? Terraderp seems much more sure that our claimed Tracker is telling the truth, while our claimed Amnesiac is lying. Terra doesn't give any sort of reasoning as to why he believes/disbelieves the claims, he just does.

---

Re:Bearclaw

With all the mixed opinions on Bearclaw floating about, I'll admit I'm having a hard time developing an actual read on him myself. As soon as I start to think of one thing, I see someone post a legit reason why he's not acting scummy, and as soon as I start to believe it, I see someone else post something that demonstrates him doing the opposite.

---

##Vote:Breezy

Reasons: New people scare me.

scorri RVS's breezy

##Unvote

##Vote:Elieson

Either stop screwing around and faking dayvig or give me a reason to believe that you're not lying and you just got lucky and hit a bullet proof.

As for other stuff, none of the cases right now are convincing me, most of them still feel like we're stuck in RVS even if people claim the votes are serious.

scorri tells me to shut up

Hmm, ok. Blah, don't like reaction tests, never have, probably never will and I still find it odd that the mods went along with it somewhat. But, whatever. Elie's response was fine and isn't making me suspect more.

##Unvote

##Vote: Breezy

Comes in, votes Prims because something's odd but doesn't say what's odd (keep in mind there was a decent wagon on Prims at this point), then empty unvotes because "oh everyone says that Prims is just being Prims", still never saying why he found Prims odd in the first place, then jumps on JB literally because "bandwagoning is a thing and what everyone else said", and only reads he's posted have been on those two and they've all been sheepy votes.

Don't like kirsche right now either. Seems to be doing a similar thing of jumping on people based entirely on other people's cases. All he had to say about Elie was "yeah, what scorri said" and "why a reaction test, what was it's point?" Would probably be ok with lynching here. Also maybe Shinori cause Marth has a good point, but I'd need to look more into that one before I decided for sure one way or another.

scorri tunnels breezy for the rest of the day. Harps on Kirsche for not liking me when she herself voted me about the same topic, and sheeps marth but never follows up.

---

anyway Breezy should fullclaim because " BBM didn't visit anyone N0" is vague and doesn't tell us if you're a tracker or you have a limited shot of it along with something else.

Above all else that Marth said, This stuck out. I'm not sure how to take this but gut says that this is a press for an unnecessary public reveal, and a press for an unnecessary public reveal can be pretty scummy, last i checked.

---

With all that said, I'm gonna

##Vote Terraderp

because his behavior regarding claims seems beyond suspicious to me.

I'd also like to F.o.S. kirsche for voting for rolespec and saying "oh well my opinion doesn't matter anyway so what's it worth?" (well not exactly that but you know

[Terrador]

Elie, I'd just like to say: claiming you tracked BBM is beyond fishy; nobody would dare do it unless it was the truth. I highly doubt that Breezy would do so unless that was what he legitimately did.

Amnesiac, on the other hand... is very easy to claim, takes at least two days to disprove (more if you claim your night action didn't take for whatever reason), and was made under, if I recall correctly, more duress than the Tracker claim. That, on top of Marth's already-somewhat-shady play? Definitely has me concerned.

[scorri]

Elie: Wasn't suspicious of kirsche for voting you, was disliking his "i'mma use the same reasoning as the other person who's voting elie and not give any original content of my own here" thing. He literally said "Couldn't have said it better myself, now I vote Elie". That's why I didn't like him.

Warning: Not in a good mood right now. At all. Am planning on trying to reread the thread, but don't expect another post from me until tomorrow.

[Zkirsche]

lol prims I thought you were joking.

a) Calling backup/amnesiac a common scum fakeclaim: That has no bearing on whether I'm scum or not. The reason UB is a common fake is because its easy to do it at massclaim time which happens at LYLO/MYLO. Ergo, if I'm claiming it D1, that's very risky since I technically haven't planned on who I'm 'backing up and faking reports' as scum.

I fail to see why the timing of claiming UB is risky. UB gives you total flexibility and if you haven't got claims sorted out (it was D1 so it's possible) then UB is a fall back option.

What exactly did you think of it?

It's bad that you sheeped Prims then vanish.

He snarkily apologizes for not having an in-depth ED1 read, but the point is that he's carrying that flimsy ED1 read all the way to the end of late D1, where it's no longer acceptable.

I didn't read much after ED1 so Elie was my biggest read.

I'd love to see you point out the part where people were doing things in order to promote pro-town discussion.

Well there was a whole bunch of terrador posts to interact with, Darros and JB discussions were happening. Just because you ignored the discussions doesn't mean they weren't there.

Number 1, scum trackers can theoretically exist just as easily as scum amnesiacs (or fakeclaims of them anyway).

I am sure that Breezy is not fakeclaiming and that he is a tracker. Scum trackers exist, but it's not like Marth was obvtown and we'd lose less from a UB lynch than a tracker lynch.

I don't get why you didn't like SSG, I find your "rearrangement" of her thoughts post to be overly incriminating just to back your case. Not scummy =/= nothing and town reads aren't irrelevant. "Your thought on breezy doesnt actually say what you think about him." is also false because SSG said she found Breezy suspicious in her verdict.

##Vote: Elieson

Summing up Shinori's suspicion on Marth as just "bad because coasting" is wrong too, as half of the point comes from the fact that Marth sheeped onto Prims.

[BBM]

Elie is going after someone based on associative reads without a flip again. Okay, I agree with you that Terra's logic in assuming that Breezy is more likely to be telling the truth and Marth less likely is bad. But why is it scummy? There's only scum intent there if Breezy is his buddy and he's trying to defend him. Now FMPOV Breezy is more likely to be town because I know that if he's mafia, claiming results on one of his buddies visiting someone would be more role-confirming than outing results that somebody whom they hooked went nowhere, which they'd reveal as soon as they were able. Therefore I'm treating Terra's bad logic in this situation as a nulltell.

You don't have anything of that sort, and are therefore free to believe that Breezy and Terrador are scumbuddies, but basing your case on something that is scummy only if Breezy is mafia is bad.

Kirsche, why are you so sure that Breezy is telling the truth about his role? And you JUST ADMITTED that you didn't read much past ED1, and that your Elie read is a leftover from that, and you're still going to return to voting him without adding anything at all? Really? My vote stays here.

[Zkirsche]

I don't get why you didn't like SSG, I find your "rearrangement" of her thoughts post to be overly incriminating just to back your case. Not scummy =/= nothing and town reads aren't irrelevant. "Your thought on breezy doesnt actually say what you think about him." is also false because SSG said she found Breezy suspicious in her verdict.

Well there was a whole bunch of terrador posts to interact with, Darros and JB discussions were happening. Just because you ignored the discussions doesn't mean they weren't there.

Man nothing new here. "Without adding anything at all" Good lord misrepping might be new town play everyone does it so much.

why are you so sure that Breezy is telling the truth about his role?

Gut.

[BBM]

I don't understand why you quoted your own posts?

And >_>.

[Zkirsche]

What's in the quote clearly shows that I have added something.

[Terrador]

Shin: He makes good points. However, the relative inactivity from him is rather odd; he's been fairly quiet, and what content he has is about 70% Rapier, with only passing mention of people seriously under consideration for lynch. It's too early to call, but I'm leaning more scum than town for him at the moment.

Shinori: He's made a couple of prods, talked to everybody--seems to be doing his job, in my humble opinion. I do find it a bit odd that he's so absolutely dead-set on Marth, but, frankly, I really do think Marth's scum, so that's understandable. I'm also curious about him faulting Rapier over what was, if memory serves, just a more-serious prod when he did the exact same thing... call this a null read.

Bluedoom/Marth: Scum, scum, scum, scum, scum. He made a scummy claim at a suspicious time, and has been flaky and primarily lashing out at players who target him. Three vote changes before anything happens? Seriously? SCUM.

Scorri... I really don't know what to make of her. She hasn't done anything to make me think she's scum, but on the other, I really cannot understand how she so fervently thinks Breezy is scum. Null read.

BBM: He's been reading hard and being active since he got back, and to date I haven't seen him overlook something or found a hole in his logic--that said, there's a lot of time in the game. My gut says townie, but the kidnapping seems as likely to be scum gambit as it is to be removal of a strong player.

Bearclaw: I... think he's town, strangely enough. He really hasn't done much, but he's asking questions and trying to parse things out now, and will start being more active when he gets a better handle on things. His RVS is a bit sketch, but I of all people can't fault him for playing badly then. By evidence it should be a null read, but I'd honestly put him on my townie list, by sheer gut feeling.

Rapier: I don't feel particularly confident saying this, but nothing he's done seems scummy. He's missed some things, made some poor points, but I don't see anything scummy about putting pressure on various users and not really wagoning anyone, even if it could be done better.

Elieson is chasing very odd, relatively minor issues that are pretty easily debunked. He really seems to be too good of a player for that. I've come around on the reaction test; I don't think that's scummy anymore, after some more thought. Have I said that already? It's 1 AM and I can't recall. That said, he's been chasing people for very strange reasons, which worries me. His case on Darros in particular was right flimsy, and though I don't agree with his interpretation of Breezy, I can see it as legitimate.

Ah, Breezy. His behavior with Prims has been perfectly justifiable imo--nearly half of us were confused at what happened, myself among them, and I really don't get what the wagon on him was about. Oh, man, can't have misunderstandings, clearly. Nearly half of us made the same mistake, and the poor boy's the one under fire. What really does it for me, though, is the tracker claim. WHY would a scum do what he did? As BBM said (and I really didn't think of), he wouldn't target the kidnap target if he had any plans of claiming and proving his role in the first Day or two. However, I was convinced just by this: why would he admit that he targeted BBM and got jack shit? I know Breezy half-decently, and between my interactions with him and his behavior in the thread, my gut is yelling at me that he wouldn't dare attempt a gambit like that. The evidence isn't there yet, but I'm almost certain that Breezy is a townie.

Strege has basically seemed to me like another Shin, only showing up earlier and spreading the focus around more. He seems pretty townie, but it definitely worries me when smart people and/or good players are quiet.

JB's done a lot of posting, with very little content. I don't find his not getting the Prims thing scummy in vacuum, but at the same time, I'm really curious as to why he's done just about no original scumhunting. Not sure he's mafioso, but not thinking that he's townie at the moment.

It's 1:25 in the morning, and I'm headed to bed. If I derped on explaining any of this, or you just want to talk to me about something, let me know and I'll address it tomorrow. For now: good night, everybody.

[BBM]

Oh, I thought those were addressed to Marth, not Elie. My mistake.

I don't really like what you're saying about him there though. What exactly were Terra/JB/Darros talking about? Just them not understanding what Prims was up to. As for there being discussion to talk about- if that was the case, why didn't you say anything about what they were saying at the time? As for what he said about SSG, townreads might not be irrelevant, but they're not immediately relevant either. You can't scumhunt using townreads until you have enough to PoE from them. So no, I don't find stating townreads on D1 to be particularly helpful, especially when townreads that early are rather easy to revoke later.

Note: I don't object to Elie's reaction testing, but I do object to the fact that he did nothing with it and just concluded with a null read on almost everybody involved.