Fakeclaim Mafia - Game Over

[Elieson]

Ask Refa, he's the one who said it.

[Sunwoo]

I read this as "eclipse is making passes at me" and all I could think was "hot"

Mind. Gutter. Out.

I think I can begin to explain why I'm not comfortable with Manix. I just spent time looking through his ISO in C9++, where I was townreading him HARD all game, in comparison to his ISO in this game. In this game, he seems more concerned with how his play style appears to others earlier in the phase.

Also, I can't believed I missed this, but I don't like how in this post here he says that the people who seem "all too sure" of Shinori being town are more likely scum. The only person out of those three that he listed who he actually gave a case on is Refa. I don't know what his actual grievances with Paperblade and eclipse are, aside from "not liking that Paperblade handwaved Refa's 'scumminess'". Whether you agree or disagree with Paperblade's massclaim idea is one thing, but do you feel that there is scum intent behind it? And what exactly makes you unhappy with eclipse?

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

I'm still not happy with Grassbridger and would like a response to the questions I asked him, but I feel that Manix is scummy as well and I can actually put a case I can argue for to my suspicions now.

Weapons: That's not a very good attitude to have ;/

Euklyd and Polydeuces: I know that it's difficult to get definite or strong reads on D1, especially if this is your first time playing. But just take note of any little thing you find odd, every interaction between people, and just state ANYTHING that you find to be of interest. You guys are part of the game, which means that we need to know where you stand.

[Da Bear]

Finally on a computer so I guess I should go ISO some people.

[Grace]

not in any good state to post full defense/whatever

@boron:

and the moment anyone takes a stab at me for putting a blanket statement over people as per point 3) above, know that I will drill into you for it later (the key point is "most likely", which is not to say they are definite scumreads, but eyes are being kept)

please read my posts properly

also noting there is a high chance that i will probably need a sub, because this game is not helping my mental state at all rn

[Grace]

the more i try and think about this game the worse i feel ugh

i'm going again, can't promise anything

[Da Bear]

also noting there is a high chance that i will probably need a sub, because this game is not helping my mental state at all rn

Hope you start feeling better soon!

[Sunwoo]

@boron:please read my posts properly

I probably missed the "most likely", but I'd still like an explanation as to WHY you think Paperblade and eclipse are "most likely" scum. Point three just seems very awkward to me in general.

[Paperblade]

Manix isn't even voting me

[Grace]

last post

I'm requesting a sub, i just can't deal with this game at all. I though I might be only to manage it, but apparently I can't.

boron:

scum would easily jump to the conclusion that shinori is town (because they would know), and considering you went so far as to suggest a massclaim implies to me your might know something the rest of us don't.

that's my response

manix out

[BBM]

Manix has asked for a sub. First person to PM me yada yada yada.

[Elieson]

Grassbridger's obsession with word choice reminds me of Avatar (I think) mafia, where he put me as a significant scum read (or at least scummier than several other players) over wording issues. Both he and I were town in that game. Grassbridger, is nitpicking at Levity's word choices really going to help you find scum?

Nothing wrong with using Semantics to find scum. Otherwise, you're giving a free pass to everyone to correct their statements if they made a potential scumslip.

This attitude is starting to making me uneasy. It's like you're getting really self-conscious over early reads (in that phase where most of the game has no information).

This right here is a good point.

I really need to get a non RVS vote out there, so I'll be rereading the thread, and at the very least, posting my reads if not putting down a vote right on the spot.

I'd think they're rather rare in RVS phase. I just wanted to make sure.

Lynching a townie is worse than a no lynch. I agree with you that we should go for a lynch (like you said, reads can be drawn), but if there remains reasonable doubt whether someone is or is not mafia, we should at least hold off on the lynch until that doubt is cleared.

Care to explain why that is? I haven't played any previous games with Manix, so I'm not really aware of his playstyle. You mean like a gut read sort of thing, or a "We should definitely be looking out for him" read?

I felt that the answer was rather obvious, but I shouldn't have answered for Euklyd. My apologies.

FALSE. Lynching a confirmed (or at least, relatively confirmed) townie is worse than a no lynch. Any other lynch is potentially hitting scum, which is town's only weapon against scum (unless town killing roles exist) Voting helps identify who believes who is scum, and in general, players aren't going to end phase with votes on town reads, or even null reads (except for the extreme situations of desperate consolidation, in which, lesser scumreads/null reads are being voted). This is a huge reason why I don't like you in this game.

you could say a little of both :o)

also we are not NL'ing today. idk why this is an argument. Refa, I'm p sure we're not still going to be in RVS at the end of the day so I really don't know what you're so worried about. The end of your post sounded kind of aggressive, might wanna watch out.

Eclipse is spending a lot of time explaining things and discussing the game without paying attention to the players. Eclipse, do you still have no reads on anyone?

I think I might ##Unvote ##Vote: Wallcrab, because I read through the thread again after sleep and nah I actually do think how he reaction to Euklyd is scummy. fite me

My scumvibes on Manix are still kinda there, I have weird vibes from Eclipse and Paperblade.

Viata's patented Vibes™, as explained already. (like, 10 posts ago)

Glance at the thread and make your own decision.

This post kind of rubs me the wrong way. Like trying to make a post that looks like something but isn't really anything. Also why do you keep answering for Bizz?

First off I'd like to say Epicmafia is pretty different than forum mafia let's not connect the two that much.

Second off I feel like your vote on grassbringer is pretty biased if you know what I mean and also pretty weak. I admit Grassringer's case isn't all that strong or really does anything to make me feel different about levy but I do NOT think the case and reasoning is really vote worthy at all.

uh.

What exactly has merit? The only thing I really saw that he said about Boron was in this post http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43071&page=7#entry2635110

Which honestly i felt like was weapons grasping with how early into the game it was. Especially since beside that Weapons has yet to do anything worthy of any cred.

I think I forgot to unvote Manix, and I don't really feel like persuing the Psych vote anymore at the moment with Psych being Psych.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Weapons

I'll leave this here for now.

Or be unhelpful, that's always cool.

You're not actually unhelpful, that line was just unnecessary. Any reason why you chose Weapons out of the bunch?

Weapons is an easy target to push because of his generally lax and 95% unserious playstyle.

Is this why? I don't like that you and Weapons are sticking up for eachother so much.

Darn, I was hoping that if I was really lazy I could just wait until Elie or somebody did them. But I suppose I shouldn't ignore a direct request...

Sorry BroBM. I'll try harder and have them built pre-signups next time.

The only thing I could see you refusing to help me would be either:

A: You're scum and you don't want to help town.

or

B: You have a scum read on me and you don't want to help me.

LOL OR C YOUR IDEA MIGHT BE A BLUFF BECAUSE YOU TEND TO BLUFF SHIT THAT BLOWS UP IN TOWN'S FACE. Sorry bro but D1 claims aren't the most trustworthy to act off of, and for you to assume otherwise is both poor play and kinda scummy.

And Shinori should stay alive, but he's not clear

Literally the only contribution Weapons has made all game, and the tl;dr version of this is

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2011/2/28/1298890509814/Waffles-005.jpg

actually one sec, there was something else about via i didn't like rn

this set of posts, just has via and weapons just backing each other up. yes, via explained the weapons stuff later, but it's worth considering her post was only 3 minutes after shinori's vote and felt very reactive, and not in a good way imo

This I agree with

iso'ed refa

refa has no explicit reads at all, and only has a implied read on eclipse (previously explained)

also, he promised reads and such about... 21 hours ago. still nothing.

anyone want to lynch this with me?

Also, agreeing on this, but I have a slightly different take on it *explained a few posts ago*

"We judge other people on their actions and ourselves by intent."


Patterns. Noted. That still sounds like meta to me, but instead of applying it on an individual basis, you're applying it universally. It's still the same thing (and this will also be the last I intend to say of it, because semantic battles are a goddamn waste of time). The null thing gets a gigantic eh from me, as that was made during RVS.


It's called being irritated with your vibes, while illustrating WHY I'm irritated with you, in a way that I'm positive that you'll understand. Instead, you made a case out of it (which is better than stating vibes).


(part of the above didn't survive the Quote button, go read Bizz's original post for it)

I already explained this, and you didn't address that here. Why didn't you take it into account?


Do I sound like I care if I'm lynched? The game's been a long, drawn-out stalemate, with this being the first major skirmish. There WILL be reads from this. In other words, part of my intent is to make absolutely, positively certain that I don't read null at the end of this debacle, and you probably won't, either.


What I have are too many null reads, none of which are your fault. It sounds like your emotions, NOT your logic is driving this, because I see nothing about what I said; rather, I see a bunch of comments about how I made you feel. Now, do you have anything to say based off of what reads I have stated? Also, your meta is upside-down. Think about this for a moment: What do I have to gain by being super-pissy and snippy as mafia?

(yes, yes, your intent vs. my perception; I can't say for certain what the former is, so you get the latter instead)


How to tick off eclipse: Presuppose her mindset, and what she should do. If it wasn't glaringly obvious with Shinori earlier, I don't like it when players tell me what I should and shouldn't do in a mafia game.


This is probably your strongest argument. I felt that you were using your vibes to cover for your lack of logic, which I felt was slightly scummy. Now that you have explained yourself, I think that your emotions are getting the better of you. In this case, the emotion itself is a null tell. The fact that you took the time to attempt to explain your vibes moves you to a very tentative ever-so-slight town read. This is better than the pile of null reads I'm still sitting on. I honestly hope I don't have to go through all of this to extract reads out of people.

This also means that you'll spend less time in future games saying "vibes", and more time explaining yourself (I hope), thus making things go faster.


I didn't like how you couldn't explain yourself, because it's impossible to argue against "vibes", and it also discourages interaction (well, you have a bad feeling, now what?) This game is now going somewhere, even if it is me at the center of it - I don't mind, as I think I'm equally useful dead or alive (hell, Shinori's role makes me more useful lynched). Now that you've gone through the process of explaining yourself, that means you should be able to do the same for Manix/Paperblade/other vibes, and hopefully in a shorter time span. This, in turn, will give them time to respond, which helps the rest of the game develop reads on both you and them.

Whether or not I do anything will be determined by the game flow. I hope there's more than a poke battle after I get back from work tomorrow.

Grassbridger, you get the next post.

Paperblade: That should say something about those reads, no?

Most antitown thing said all game, and obviously implies that eclipse is either:

town-with-intent-to-self-sacrifice-instead-of-advocating-other-lynches (at the most extreme)

admitting to being not-town

Sorry eclipse, but this is the most irritating thing that you do, and you have done it before. You act like you don't care if you're lynched or not, and FMPOV that shows apathy to the game in general, which isn't going to help anybody. Tell me the last time that Apathy helped net a town win and I'll send you an iTunes gift card for $5 for each instance.

Not a necessary point, tbh, and reads more like provoking more sidetracked debate. You continued on well, but this sentence (the underlined one from your quote) seems more unnecessary than helpful, and isn't gonna change anything when you just say "I don't like when people tell me what to do" when you don't know the motive behind anyone's declarations aside from the assumption that their motivation is built from their rolePM (something you're quite fond of sharing). It's a detracting point, and feels more like you're gently encouraging discussion on this subject by not offering discussion on other, more relevant subjects.

Because the majority of this post, while filled with obvious effort, isn't helping catch scum.

What is everyone's thoughts on a Day 1 Massclaim combined with Shinori's role to break the game?

welllll....not until his role is proven.

can I throw a few things out there before we get too ingrained in the massclaim idea

1) his claimed role, while strong as fuck, can easily be faked as scum (funny that) and can "clear" scum with the right result fake.
2) i see a number of people assuming shinori is town from role alone. why? (if you want my opinion, i'm nullreading him rn because role =/= alignment)
3) I'd argue that the people that seem to be all too sure of shinori being town are more likely scum. paper/eclipse/refa/and whoever else i've missed, 11pm posting too stronk
4) massclaiming outs protective roles anyway (prime kill/hook targets), which puts our investigative roles at risk. also consider chances are (I would damn hope) that massclaim won't break the game.

that be me take on this fishy massclaim business, mateys.

And this is why. That, and my previously stated reason of LOLFUCKINGTOWNOVERKTHXMAN\

i'm Awake

I thought about it and the issue with what Eclipse did is that she purposely messed with my scumread on her to make a point, which isn't good play to me imo. If she hadn't staged all of that I might have eventually felt better about her but she purposely acted scummy to push me into making a case on her which is unnecessary and for mental health reasons if she does anything like that again in this game I'm subbing out.

I also don't have the energy to make as big a case on anyone else now because of that, but one of the biggest reasons I voted Paperblade is that I really don't remember much that he's done aside from the Wallcrab vote and he is Very Involved in Shinori's role and that feels off to me.

I want to say Manix attempting to discredit Shinori bothers me too, but I think wrt Manix I'll wait for flips since I can't get a super solid read on him.

Dislike this, but it's mainly because I find self-depreciation scummy in general.

Hey gays I'm playing now. Sure Bizz, sounds like a lot of fun.

+1 for massclaiming. Sensor is broken as fuck, see: Toonami. Also happy because that was the fakeclaim I gave Paper :)

Only been skimming through stuff. Let me reread more indepth before voting.

What does this even mean?

[Zkirsche]

I feel like Refa is being lynched for falling into a lot of newbie traps instead of a lot of newbie scum traps. The case on him is:

"No lynching LOL" go back to my argument with Manix wrt my defence of that.

"You took WoMC seriously SCUM LYNCH LYNCH LYNCH" which is so dumb and this is happening like every other mafia game now. Missing a joke isn't scummy people.

"WoMC vote is dumb" Refa essentially voted weapons because he saw that he was coasting by on a flimsy vote which had pisspoor reasoning, being an ED1 vote and all. I don't see why that's a bad reason to vote, hell I did that in masquerade.

Don't want to lynch here.

[Zkirsche]

Elieson there's a difference between being bad and being scum. You know that, right?

[Elieson]

Elieson there's a difference between being bad and being scum. You know that, right?

I do know that. If you can identify where my argument falls on its ass, then go for it.

[Refa]

You're talking about mechanics/theory, not players.

I ISO'd myself, the last time I made a post consisting mainly of mechanics/theory was 2 days ago.

You're weren't getting a lot of player interactions that would be useful to use to figure out things after flips, but you were also appearing to contribute a lot. However, you actually contributed very little that will be useful further down the line.

Really? I don't have a lot of player interactions? I'm pretty sure the last couple of posts of mine consisted of defending myself. You'd think that when I get flipped, it would actually contribute a lot considering I am the leading wagon atm.

Weapons hasn't said a lot on Boron. And yet you were basing half your case on the fact that you didn't like his reasons for voting Boron. It's not a very solid case when there's so little to base it off of.

What would you have me do? The only other people I found scummy were bearclaw, and all of the leading wagons were null reads at best. Also your logic for voting me bothers me because it's based on 1) I spent a lot of Day 1 talking about mechanics, 2) I didn't have a lot of player interactions, and 3) My reasons for voting Weapons were not as strong as you'd like. You can apply 2 and 3 to half of the people playing the game, so the thing that makes me seem scummier enough to vote on is that I spent a lot of Day 1 talking about mechanics, and...I post more than those people. :\

You bopped from "I don't like his stance on Boron because I don't like it, so scumread" to "I'm reading Weapons as Null" to "Weapons and his ????? and DA BEAR and his sheeping are so scummy why can't I choose who to vote for" to "imma vote Weapons because I simply don't like it poutyface"

I never read Weapons as null. I said his playstyle was null, and that people shouldn't be giving him a free pass because "oh weapon's style of playing is so easy to vote on". In the same post I stated that I found him scummy, so it's not like I changed my mind. Then later I elaborated on that (not enough, but I gave the basic reason) and voted him. I said Bearclaw was leaning scum, nothing more, you're overexxagerating my claims. :\ Then I stated that I found Weapons' reasoning more scummy than bearclaws, nothing more, nothing less.

And now you justify your vote on him by saying "Weapons thinks that my townread is scum, he's totes scum rite gais?"

...And that he's put like no effort into actually catching scum, yes.

tl;dr Refa, your casing sucks. You're saying you don't like things that Weapons is doing but you're not saying why. The Why is a huge part of developing scumreads and placing votes, because the Why is used to help actually catch scum in the act of being scummy.

I don't like the things he's doing because he was tunneling in on a townread while making minimum effort to catch scum. I'm honestly not sure how much more you want me to extrapolate out of his 2 sentence posts. It's almost like you're getting on my case for not voting for someone who has more content.

[Percivalé]

i <3 weapons and think that getting angry at him isn't going to make him contribute more anyway, it hasn't worked for pretty much the entire day so far and there are better things/people to focus on (if it came to killing him he'd be a better vig target than lynch target but I still don't think he's scum, fight me IRL elieson and not online)

elieson is reading as tryhard to me and his tone is scaring me a little btw

[Zkirsche]

Oh hey you quoted me at the end of that wall, guess I'll respond:

What does this even mean?

I was the one who suggested Paper claim Sensor back in Mitnala when we were scum buddies.

Elie what do you think of Manix? You seem to be agreeing with him a lot but you haven't talked about the case on him at all.

[Sunwoo]

Elieson I will punch you if you ever write a post that long ever again.

In response to Manix's comment before he subbed out though, I still feel that's a rather hasty conclusion to make and it bothers me that he didn't seem to have extremely negative feelings about eclipse and Paper beforehand.

[Zkirsche]

I do know that. If you can identify where my argument falls on its ass, then go for it.

#437 done.

That was also wrt your "Shinori that was poor play and kinda scummy" thing in your wall.

[Zkirsche]

Refa WoMC's Boron vote was a reaction test and he has since admitted that she is probably town as noone sheeped him (dunno if I like that logic but w/e). Do you have other opinions now?

[Percivalé]

Elieson I will punch you if you ever write a post that long ever again.

careful, you might turn him into a door

[Da Bear]

##unvote
##Vote: Grassbridger.

The more I read his IO the less I like him, his use of wording against Bizz was lame, then he went off with talking about how age/experience doesn't necessarily mean wisdom as a weak defense for a weak case. He makes a post that seems to be saying that his Bizz vote wasn't going to catch scum (seriously?), that's my main thing on him why make a vote and back it up if it won't help catch scum?

I think your "passing question" that she asked me was "is this really going to help find scum?" and I feel like I answered that with the unvote.

Eclipse, I have no idea why you linked to my post in what appeared to be explaining your Viata vote. Can you explain?

post in question

[Paperblade]

Nothing wrong with using Semantics to find scum. Otherwise, you're giving a free pass to everyone to correct their statements if they made a potential scumslip.

I don't like this

Also guys Refa literally suggested we lynch a townie in Kirby, picking on someone for being new is extremely lazy

[Elieson]

Lol you can tell I'm on a PC and not on my phone now rite? I'm trying to multiquote up the ying yang because I'm working doubles for the next 5 days straight, and very likely will be returning to phonebound-ness after I wake up in the am.

Manix, the tl;dr version: Even though he has a few statements in which I agree on, the primary reason why I quoted his posts instead of saying things myself is well, because my feelings were pretty much summed up in ways that Manix did state. In general, he seems pretty forgettable. Re-reading his ISO presents me with a couple-post case on Refa (which I agree with), various Anti-Viata posts (that more or less imply a mild scumread at best, from Manix's POV), a few weak scumreads that seem based out of Paranoia more than anything else, and lots of "meh" posts overall. Geez filtering through his spam is tedious. I'd put him at a (Elieson's Scale of 0-100% likely to be scum Scumeter™) around a 60%, due to having so much filler, and such a focused case on Refa without so much as a real [read: approaching half-solid] secondary scumread to fall back on. Maybe it's Viata in his #2 slot? He seems like he's just irked by Viata overall, and isn't really pushing a scum case on him.

Yea, now that I focused on Manix (and read him in Context), he's just forgettable so far, with his few notable comments being on the ever-popular Refa situation, and a few other things here and there that scream Minimal-commital.

P.Edit: To the Shinori point..I know. It's pretty much be holding past games over his head (see Drafters for one...whateverthefuq game where he won our scumteam the victory in another due to his ranting). I've seen him do it in more memorable ways as non-town than as town, so I have my suspicions due to that.

[Percivalé]

uhh

hey Wallcrab idk if you explained and I didn't see it but did you ever explain your town read on me?