Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[Paperblade]

Regardless of what we decide on BBM

On the subject of a lynch I'm not really feeling the bear wagon right now. I don't get the same impression as his play as I did in Fakeclaim

##Unvote, ##Vote: Boron

You are trying to construe Bearclaw's vote as a pressure vote when he added that in one line after a really long post with his thoughts on BBM (even though I disagree with them) and trying to construe that as scummy.

[Paperblade]

@BBM can you make a key encryption?

[Paperblade]

going to class will post once I'm there

[BBM]

Yeah, I was quiet because I have a 90 minute one-way commute, eight hours of class, and also physiotherapy for an hour afterwards on Tuesdays. Sorry?

firstly, lol at Proto referring to himself in the third person

Secondly, Proto's role in Touhou was way better because it let people make actual plans, not like 5 minute stuff, and it allowed people to speak in private as much as they wanted. Yeah, a qt was given, but there was no requirement to post in it. If you look at the qt, there are probably like <50 posts in it; 95% of the OC took place on IRC 1v1. I was invited into it as scum and Paperblade and Proto still made plans to have me shot by the Vig.

Also I don't HAVE to be in the channel, but as the only person with the ability to speak at night, I'm the only one who can effectively co-ordinate people coming in and out of the channel, and I can also give orders in code after the hour is up, in-thread.

Nobody is forced to claim to me, because I recognize my alignment isn't confirmed, but I thought my role was at least townie looking enough that some people might choose to anyways. Their choice. Just realize, the first twelve people who claim to me get to be my TWELVE DISCIPLES!!!

I could create an encryption, but for there to be a point to it, I'd have to like make a different encryption for each person, which would be sort of tiresome. Or if I created one just for the people I thought were town based on role, then the mafia would be able to see that and kill them. Which is why I was just going to refer to people with numbers in-thread, like "#47, target Shinori" or something.

I think Bearclaw's push on me is shit but the speed of the wagon sort of turns me off, and I sort of agree with Paper about his play giving off a different vibe from Fakeclaim. Don't agree wrt Boron though.

[BBM]

Okay I missed the part where he can use it more than once. Which is relevant.

Relevant in what way? Before realizing that you said you were null on my alignment and didn't agree with claiming to me. So does realizing this change your opinion on my alignment or on claiming to me?

[Rocker64]

Thanks for telling me what a insomniac is guys, I kind of figured as such, but I wanted to make sure.

I'm pretty much against this whole town leader idea as a whole, at least until we have some more info or maybe a confirmation would be best.

I'm still going to abstain for now, I'm not exactly sure that BBM should be lynched especially since he hasn't returned since then, and I'm not feeling a lynch for bear yet either.

I'll probably look over his posts again though, because abstaining leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

[riariadne]

Relevant in what way? Before realizing that you said you were null on my alignment and didn't agree with claiming to me. So does realizing this change your opinion on my alignment or on claiming to me?

Well, I thought it was really pointless before and there was no way we should consider it. But now I think doing so has much more of a benefit.

[Rocker64]

Well look at that ninja.

Actually you make a fine point Mr. Marshmallow, thought I'm still not sure how to feel about you and your actions, it has to be worth giving it a chance.

A chance that could possibly screw the entire town over. But you can't win without taking some risks.

[Prims]

Day 1.2 - Votals

bearclaw13 (5) - Objection, Serious Bananas, Refa, Boron, Reinfleche

Strege (4) - eclipse, Elieson, BigBangMeteor, kirsche

Paperblade (2) - Shinori, Kay

BigBangMeteor (1) - bearclaw13

Boron (1) - Paperblade

Elieson (1) - scorri

Refa (1) - Strege

Reinfleche (1) - j00

Shinori (1) - Proto

Not Voting (4): Bluedoom, Grassbridger, NekoRex, Rocker64

With 21 alive, it takes 7 to deadline lynch and 11 to hammer. You have 53 hours left in the day.

[BBM]

SB is that a serious vote?

This is a little too trusting, I'm pretty sure you were in that game where BBM threw both his buddies under the bus early, he makes these kind of gambits all the time. I'm going to take a page out of Bard's book and say that this is laking the healthy amount of paranoia that townies usually have, made worse when you realise that you're seriously advocating a D1 town leader that you're willing to give away your role to.

##Unvote

##Vote:Strege

Serious time.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Kirsche

The only way it is scummy for Strege to advocate people claiming to me is if we are scumbuddies. It doesn't benefit scum to have to claim to town, or for others to claim to town. If he's arguing for claiming to me, the worst you can say about it without my flip is that he's being dumb/illogical, which isn't the same thing as being scum.

Also AM/PM (assuming that's what you're referring to) is different because I was under suspicion from almost the get-go, so there was a good chance of me getting lynched D1. Due to this my plan became to give my buddies towncred from bussing them. Bussing your buddies is also a completely different gambit than trying to become town leader on D1.

[NekoRex]

Pay attention to another Mafia game for ONE FUCKING DAY and there's already 6 bloody pages here.

[riariadne]

hey i've already posted more than touhou. get the fuck at me haters

[Da Bear]

BBM could you explain why my push on you is bad? I can

The stuff that BBM's been posting makes me feel better about him but I'm still kind of wary.

A quick re-read has me feeling bad about Boron, she hasn't done much (if anything) so far besides sheeping my wagon for a reason that ignores a lot of what I had said at that point. in other words I'm sheeping paper.

##Unvote

##Vote: Boron

[Prims]

added ISOs to OP

[Sunwoo]

Paperblade ... bearclaw even stated himself that part of his reason for voting BBM was a pressure vote ... stated here. His initial point of "I dislike the way he claimed and has acted since" is something I can understand ... but giving a reason that he himself stated as "so a pressure vote I guess" does not sit well with me. It feels like he's giving himself an easy way to hop off BBM's wagon.

A quick re-read has me feeling bad about Boron, she hasn't done much (if anything) so far besides sheeping my wagon for a reason that ignores a lot of what I had said at that point. in other words I'm sheeping paper.

I hope you do realize ... that the game started for me at a time when I was in no condition to participate ... and that I have been running back and forth to and from classes all day today. Meaning that I haven't had the chance to do anything since the game started ... and that this is an invalid point. One cannot do anything if they are not present.

Second ... excluding the part where I "haven't done much besides sheep your wagon", do you get what I am trying to say now? I can understand what you are trying to say about BBM. I just cannot say I like the way you are going about it, and I believe I had explained why. Also ... do you only dislike me because I voted you? I am hardly the only one who has posted little ... and even though the strikethrough is supposed to indicate that you are joking, I cannot help but find the timing of your jump onto me after Paperblade to be suspicious.

[Paperblade]

I understand that, Boron, hence why I'm saying you're trying to take one sentence and blow it up like that's his entire reason for voting BBM.

BBM's kirsche point is interesting too.

[Da Bear]

I hope you do realize ... that the game started for me at a time when I was in no condition to participate ... and that I have been running back and forth to and from classes all day today. Meaning that I haven't had the chance to do anything since the game started ... and that this is an invalid point. One cannot do anything if they are not present

After semi-precious it would be hypocritical of me to feel that way. I understand that busy schedules happen. However you seemed to be around enough to read through and only commented on me, I don't really like this because others were posting.

Second ... excluding the part where I "haven't done much besides sheep your wagon", do you get what I am trying to say now? I can understand what you are trying to say about BBM. I just cannot say I like the way you are going about it, and I believe I had explained why. Also ... do you only dislike me because I voted you? I am hardly the only one who has posted little ... and even though the strikethrough is supposed to indicate that you are joking, I cannot help but find the timing of your jump onto me after Paperblade to be suspicious.

I dislike your vote on me for a few reasons.

1. You've said nothing else when there was other stuff to be said.

2. Your vote was the 5th (current) on me in the 24 hours since phase start. Only 10~ hours of activity at that point as well. Why did you add another vote to my wagon? Did you think the difference between 4 and 5 votes would get a better reaction? We're obviously not coming close to lynching yet so a votal that high just seems weird. (I'm prob overreacting though because I'm the one being wagoned, this point is kind of meh because of that).

3. It was a really bare vote. You gave one reason (pressure-voting) and then hopped right on my wagon. Again I'm immediately predisposed to dislike that but it still doesn't look like a townie thing to do imo more reasons or more general content would help with this point.

4. It was a misrep. You voted me because I.said it was a pressure vote and then drew the conclusion I wasn't trying to find scum from that when I literally stated that I found BBM more suspicious than anyone else, how does that work? (My main problem)

[Sunwoo]

I understand that, Boron, hence why I'm saying you're trying to take one sentence and blow it up like that's his entire reason for voting BBM.

... Well, that certainly wasn't my intention to make it sound as such. But it bothers me enough to earn him my vote. I agree with his initial point on not claiming to someone who's not confirmed. But looking back at his ISO ... he says that he does not like BBM's claim because of "mod meta" and states that it's enough to doubt his claim. Later says that he never doubted the truthfulness of BBM's claim, just his alignment. Unless I am misunderstanding the first post that I linked, this strikes me as weird.

Also ... states here that he doesn't want BBM lynched. But decides in this post that he's suspicious enough to vote. This is about half an hour later. What changed your mind so fast?

[Sunwoo]

After semi-precious it would be hypocritical of me to feel that way. I understand that busy schedules happen. However you seemed to be around enough to read through and only commented on me, I don't really like this because others were posting.

You cannot make such a call ... unless you actually know where I am around. I was rushing to read through everything and put up a post ... and then I had to leave shortly thereafter. I cannot comment on everything in such a short time frame. Also ... you yourself have yet to comment on any players ... other than BBM and myself. This is a terrible point ... because you have no proof that I was actually around enough to read through and comment on more than just you.

I dislike your vote on me for a few reasons.

1. You've said nothing else when there was other stuff to be said.

2. Your vote was the 5th (current) on me in the 24 hours since phase start. Only 10~ hours of activity at that point as well. Why did you add another vote to my wagon? Did you think the difference between 4 and 5 votes would get a better reaction? We're obviously not coming close to lynching yet so a votal that high just seems weird. (I'm prob overreacting though because I'm the one being wagoned, this point is kind of meh because of that).

3. It was a really bare vote. You gave one reason (pressure-voting) and then hopped right on my wagon. Again I'm immediately predisposed to dislike that but it still doesn't look like a townie thing to do imo more reasons or more general content would help with this point.

4. It was a misrep. You voted me because I.said it was a pressure vote and then drew the conclusion I wasn't trying to find scum from that when I literally stated that I found BBM more suspicious than anyone else, how does that work? (My main problem)

1. If I had voted for another ... such as Strege, would you be having this problem? This seems like a very reactionary reason, and I have already explained why I did not comment on anything else.

2. I was not paying attention to wagon votals. I merely voted who I thought was the most suspicious.

3. I did give more reasons. Read them and get back to me. In the same vein, is there any reason why my vote on you is less "acceptable" than other votes on you, such as SB and Rein's?

4. See above post.

[Paperblade]

BBM, I think a key encryption would be useful since it lets people give you results (particularly relevant with info roles) without having to wait til the next night or something like that. Ideally people would include random gibberish and you'd have small talk so it's not obvious who has good roles and such.

[Bluedoom]

Ok guys sorry for my inactivity but I've been busy and stuff. I'll try and make a post in another 10+ hours. All I don't understand/can comment on right now is the commotion about BBM's role/alignment but that's really about it.

[Da Bear]

... Well, that certainly wasn't my intention to make it sound as such. But it bothers me enough to earned him my vote. I agree with his initial point on not claiming to someone who's not confirmed. But looking back at his ISO ... he says that he does not like BBM's claim because of "mod meta" and states that it's enough to doubt his claim. Later says that he never doubted the truthfulness of BBM's claim, just his alignment. Unless I am misunderstanding the first post that I linked, this strikes me as weird.

Also ... states here that he doesn't want BBM lynched. But decides in this post that he's suspicious enough to vote. This is about half an hour later. What changed your mind so fast?

I doubted the part about him being town. Apologies for not communicating that properly.

My vote post said something along the lines of (I'm on phone can't quote), "after writing this down I realize I'm more suspicious of BBM than anyone else atm" basically writing it down helped me realize that voting him was the logical option (FMPOV) at that time. It was also me realizing that keeping my RVS vote would be dumb if I had a suspicion.

Pedit: you responded so here's what I got.

I got that vibe because I also saw you post elsewhere. I figured if you could read through this and make a post than another post (to correct your vote) and make a post elsewhere you were able to do more than what you did. I came to the wrong conclusion there it seems. (Also a post on other people will come soon~ despite being on I was doing schoolwork. I was mainly responding, I assure everyone I'll get more in a few hours)

1. I understand where you're coming from, you explained you didn't actually have time so this point is now moot.

2. I see, I had no way of knowing this one way or another sadly, I would think a quick read would have given you an idea of how the votes were but if it didn't then eh, can't say anything else here really.

3. SB's vote was the original so I don't have the problem that I had a lot of votes (read pressure) that applies to you. But I don't think he's said anything since and he was at least on to end phase in Oneshot, kind of suspicious of him. I don't think a whole lot of Rein's vote as I am yet to really look at it, when I evaluate people I shall answer this.

4. You have now extrapolated why you find me scummy... I don't really think a whole lot there because it was mainly me apparently not getting my point across properly so meh. I'll probably spoiler tag and make my posts make more sense later if misinterpretation like this could happen

[Sunwoo]

My vote post said something along the lines of (I'm on phone can't quote), "after writing this down I realize I'm more suspicious of BBM than anyone else atm" basically writing it down helped me realize that voting him was the logical option (FMPOV) at that time. It was also me realizing that keeping my RVS vote would be dumb if I had a suspicion.

I can understand that, but you'll have to forgive me if I am still not wholly comfortable with just how long it took you to realize your suspicions.

Pedit: you responded so here's what I got.

I got that vibe because I also saw you post elsewhere. I figured if you could read through this and make a post than another post (to correct your vote) and make a post elsewhere you were able to do more than what you did. I came to the wrong conclusion there it seems. (Also a post on other people will come soon~ despite being on I was doing schoolwork. I was mainly responding, I assure everyone I'll get more in a few hours)

If I am posting elsewhere or speaking on Skype consistently ... and then try to say that I was not around, you would have a point. However ... if I am consistently not posting anywhere on SF for Skype for an hour or two or more, then I am not available to be posting. My unvote and re-vote on you was literally a span of 12 minutes, which is not quite so much. I had missed quite a lot, and I was struggling to understand it all. You need to look at gaps between times more closely before accusing someone of purposely not posting.

1. I understand where you're coming from, you explained you didn't actually have time so this point is now moot.

2. I see, I had no way of knowing this one way or another sadly, I would think a quick read would have given you an idea of how the votes were but if it didn't then eh, can't say anything else here really.

3. SB's vote was the original so I don't have the problem that I had a lot of votes (read pressure) that applies to you. But I don't think he's said anything since and he was at least on to end phase in Oneshot, kind of suspicious of him. I don't think a whole lot of Rein's vote as I am yet to really look at it, when I evaluate people I shall answer this.

4. You have now extrapolated why you find me scummy... I don't really think a whole lot there because it was mainly me apparently not getting my point across properly so meh. I'll probably spoiler tag and make my posts make more sense later if misinterpretation like this could happen

1 and 2. No response.

3. You do that then, and I shall wait for your response.

4. I suggest you not spoiler tag your responses unless there is something that is not game-related in your post. Content in spoilers is rather obnoxious. Also ... while it appears as if we are starting to be on the same page now, you'll have to forgive me if I'm not completely convinced just yet.

I will need some time to read the thread again and to begin forming opinions on other happenings ... I have been more tired than usual today and cannot think too clearly at the moment.

[BBM]

Bearclaw, your case was bad because your argument against claiming to me was that role =/= alignment, and yet your initial suspicion on me was based on my role. It also felt like you were trying to smear me without actually saying I was scummy, to try to discourage roleclaims (if you need another example of this, see Manix in Fakeclaim wrt Shinori's Sensor claim).

Bearclaw is probably town because in Fakeclaim he just piddled around commenting on stuff without scumhunting and started buddying up to members of the town, while he's making an honest attempt here even if I disagree with what he's saying.

[BBM]

I have to agree with this. Furthermore, this is BBM we're talking about here. We can't just unconditionally trust him just because he can provide us with OC for a while.

Firstly, screw you.

I agree in that it is a dumb reason. It's too early to be thinking about modmeta. We need to see more roles before we can make a judgment on whether Prims would do something like this or not. Whether a role is OP or not depends on the overall balance of the game, which is built up by all the other roles as well.

I still find it a bit suspicious though, because BBM somehow expects us to roleclaim to him and appoint him as a Leader (directing our actions) without presenting any evidence or even any flimsy reasoning about him being Town.

Firstly, how would be presenting flimsy reasoning be better than posting no extra evidence for why I should be town leader? The first would legitimately be scummy. This post is fair enough otherwise but pay attention to the second paragraph.

I really really do not like this vote. I found Refa's argument illogical, so I perfectly understood why bearclaw rejected BBM's proposal without finding him scummy. Now, because Refa tells him that it makes no sense, bearclaw decided to change his stance and vote for BBM? I think bearclaw's thought process went something like "Crap, Refa tells me that I can't not find BBM scummy" => "this is making ME look scummy to Refa" => "I should change my views to make it seem more logical to everyone" => "I know, I'll declare that I find BBM scummy, that should make Refa happy". Which is really, really bad. You should not decide your reads based on what would make you look good. You should declare your reads based on what you yourself feel about the player, and not be swayed by what other people think of your reads. I mean, yes, you should look at other opinions and objectively analyze them, but you should not change your stance on the basis of conforming with somebody else.

And finally, I see absolutely no reason to find BBM scummy. He claimed an ability that can easily be proven and that's it. He said nothing noteworthy after that to make him look townish or scummy. Everything after that was the rest of us discussing BBM, while BBM himself was quiet. bearclaw's vote on BBM does not seem to be based on the roleclaim itself, but based on how the rest of us decided to deal with it, which has absolutely nothing to do with BBM's actual alignment.

Now this is the end of his last post. Flip-flop much? Before Bearclaw started getting heat for finding me suspicious, he basically said the same thing as him, and then afterwards he 180d and started attacking him. Also he misreps Bearclaw's reasons for voting me. Bearclaw's vote was bad but the reasoning for the vote not coming right away was clearly that as he had to keep defending his position, and this strengthened his belief in it. At no point does it look like he voted me because Refa said he was being illogical, and half that first paragraph is Proto speculating on what Bearclaw's thought process could have been when there's nothing that I can see to back it up other than that the post in which Bearclaw voted me began as a response to Refa, which is a very tenuous connection.

Kirsche/Proto scumbuddies imho