Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[eclipse]

Boron. YourPR. Whathappenedtoit?

[Sunwoo]

Boron. YourPR. Whathappenedtoit?

It wasn't a mod-given PR. I was attempting to roleplay as my character.

[eclipse]

It wasn't a mod-given PR. I was attempting to roleplay as my character.

Whyme? PRIMSYOUJERK!

[Paperblade]

I'm saying the fact that you wouldn't expect goodness from a Samaritan betrays your inherent racism.

[Shinori]

There are a lot of walls in this game....

Help how?

Not sure if I should say or not, however it's not something in a normal game though.

However I am pleased with your recent posts even if I don't agree with your case against Strege so ##Unvote, ##Vote: Proto

This line caught me as off. And I didn't really like the proto vote. Could you explain why you didn't agree with his Strege case?

I want people to comment on my Boron read.

I honestly agree with you on your read for the most part, getting scum-vibes from Boron. Really didn't like her early game bearclaw park and the general vibe I got from her early was pretty bad. Seems different than normal to me. More on her later also.

Your Boron read is based simply off a misrep which I don't think really does that much and could easily just be her misinterpreting something. Not really convincing me that she's scum, and I'm not really seeing much wrong with her posts with actual content in them either. Nothing glaring at least.

What do you make of her recent posts?

I don't agree about it being based solely on a misrep. I also honestly feel like you are defending Boron to some extent here without much reason to defend her.

It's not a misrep. She said something and when I pushed her out for saying false things, she started to talk about other reasons he was suspicious. Then she pushed, Strege, another easy wagon.

She also pushed strege without ever unvoting bear. Not sure what to think about that honestly. Kinda felt like she was trying to put pressure on him but did not want to vote him. I really didn't like that.

Curse you, posting system!

Paperblade ... why is Strege an "easy wagon"? This bothers me ... you are saying he is "easy" while not explaining why ... and if he is an "easy wagon" then what of the other people besides me who are pushing him? Also ... I already explained the so-called "false things" you are accusing me of. Those "other reasons" I gave for him being suspicious are not any less valid because they came after you pushed me. (Also ... my original vote on bearclaw came at a period I have already stated to be when I was in a hurry.)

Your comments about Neko and SB also bother me. What makes NekoRex lurkscum as opposed to another ... such as scorri or Grassbridger or Objection? And if you think SB is voteparking bearclaw ... do you find him scummy over it? Your vote on Elieson also feels weaker than your case on me.

##Unvote

##Vote: Paperblade

The Elieson vote does not feel very strong ... and it appears that even now your suspicions are more on me than on him. I would also like an explanation as to what makes NekoRex lurkscum but not others and if you think SB is scum(my). Because right now it looks as if you are making passing comments about how certain players are doing certain scummy things ... but not actually committing to the observation and explaining why or giving a read on that player.

Then we get to this post, which at the moment is the last post I've read up to. Honestly quite felt that this vote seemed partially like an OMGUS. Even though, I know, Paper never voted Boron. It just really rubs me the wrong way. She's sounded really defensive of Paper in her past few posts and I dislike that. For now:

##Unvote:

##Vote: Boron

Gonna continue reading and stuffs.

[eclipse]

Iwon'tmakeitback. Forphaseend.

[Paperblade]

I'm voting Boron right now, Shinori

However, I did find compelling evidence that BBM is, in fact, lying about his role

http://gyazo.com/4c70c13ea0293bea8371e2fb72b34be2

what say you to this, BBM?

[Paperblade]

actually I think this is the second time Shinori has said something that was just blatantly wrong? Double checking

[Paperblade]

oh that was kirsche the first time

[Shinori]

I'm voting Boron right now, Shinori

However, I did find compelling evidence that BBM is, in fact, lying about his role

http://gyazo.com/4c70c13ea0293bea8371e2fb72b34be2

what say you to this, BBM?

I said that that post was the last post I had read up to, so I hadn't seen you boron vote.

[Prims]

a looooot of people need to post (j00, rocker come to mind first). I know some are kinda busy but. really.

[Kay]

Actually Kay bothers me a bit -- she points out SB's contradictions then bounces out of the thread without further comment in her last post, and waffles on bear just before that. Kay, what is your opinion of BBM exactly? Your questions to him seem terse in a way that I wouldn't associate with what I see as a townread in your other language. If anyone does a top-three list of scumreads I'm actually most interested in yours.

I greatly dislike how I apparently cannot start reading the thread if I can't guarantee that nothing will come up and I will have time to post.

My opinion of BBM is a very slight townread but I don't think people should claim to him unless their roles aren't a big deal for scum to know or something.

Don't really like Kay's case on me either. I've already mentioned the lurker thing, but those posts aren't even contradictions. I never said that claiming to BBM was a bad idea if he ended up cleared somehow. What I was implying is that his role was as broken as DA BEAR seemed to think it was as Prims would've balanced the setup to not be completely broken by a town leader strategy. Even if it doesn't break the game it can still be useful though, but obviously can have side effects such as people relying on investigations to lead lynches. Please don't take my posts out of context.

Paper explained this better already, but I'll go over it again because why not. I did read those posts in context, and it sounded contradictory. First post is fine, it implied that you didn't think people/you should claim to BBM now, but that it would be a good idea if he was cleared. No problem there. Saying we'd be punished for massclaiming like that sort of implies that you think there's something like a cult or whatever that would make it a bad idea, not just that it isn't broken. But I see what you meant, and it still makes sense. If I take your third post as meaning you have no objection to BBM as town leader if he's cleared, which you probably should have specified imo, it still sounds unclear and negative but okay.

So, I can work out what you meant, but I can't say for sure you're not backtracking and I still don't like it, since I figure scum could use waffly phrasing like that to avoid openly advocating something.

Regarding Proto's talking in third person that people seem to be seriously thinking about as being copy/pasted, I don't see any reason for scum to have said that in the QT. If BBM is town, they'd almost certainly assume that he was telling the truth about his role, so they wouldn't be talking about whether it was too OP. If BBM was scum, I suppose someone might post that in the QT to suggest a justification for that, but I still don't think it's unlikely, makes more sense that they would just say it themselves if anything. So, it doesn't make sense for it to have been there to copy/paste.

Besides, talking about role advantages instead of discussion is exactly the kind of thing Proto would do.

Paperblade/Boron is starting to look like town infighting. I agree with Clipsey in that Grassbridger's analysis of Boron's phrasing is dumb and slightly scummy. Did Paper answer the question about why Neko was lurkscum and not other people? People who voted Proto earlier for flipflopping on BBM should comment on his explanation because I suspect voteparkers there.

Elieson's last couple posts really bug me. I'd like more explanation on why the BBM read was dropped like that. Don't like the sudden realization of "oh hey this easy wagon looks okay".

Current scumlist: SB = Elieson > JSND > Grass

[NekoRex]

As much as I'd love to keep up better with this game and make some reads, I've been really roadblocked by my other game, which basically has my full investment going for it so far.

Compared to that game, reading this just feels like slogging though tons of text that I'm not gleaning any useful thoughts out of (despite this game having about the same density of post length)

[NekoRex]

Also technically harder to grab context and get reads when I'm a lot less acquainted with most people here.

I'm still trying though

[Kay]

Prims should post votals btw

[riariadne]

Fuck, I started a post at home and totally blanked on finishing it. Just saying I'm still around and stuff

[j00]

SUPER LATE and probably outdated reads, I'm writing as I read the thread/reading ISO's individually so I might not catch if things have already been pointed out by other players:

I don't think it's anything strange about saying BBM's role not proving anything about alignment and being reluctant about claiming to him, but there are other things about bearclaw's play that bugs me:

I really don't like BBM's claim because of Modmeta.

This is a really dumb reason but I really doubt Prims would give town a role that OP (see previous games by him and posts by him about giving a large town mediocre roles and a small scum OP roles).

Not a valid reason to think BBM is scum but I think it's enough to doubt his claim.

How could BBM's role (assuming he's town) possibly help scum in any way?

So is your problem that you're doubting his role since you think it too OP for town and not useful for scum? Considering how easily provable his role is this doesn't make any sense. If you think his role is OP because it doesn't help scum if BBM's town, OC gives scum a chance to pry information without all the players knowing and as you said, this is a prims game, so scum might have OP roles to counter this.

Also, I've never said I doubt the truthfulness of BBM's claim, I've said that I doubt his alignment. There's a huge difference.

talking about his claim being suspicious because it seems OP is doubting the claim tho

Also don't like his votes much, he only voted BBM after people went "why are you talking so much around him do you find him suspicious or just his role" and man

BBM could you explain why my push on you is bad? I can

The stuff that BBM's been posting makes me feel better about him but I'm still kind of wary.

A quick re-read has me feeling bad about Boron, she hasn't done much (if anything) so far besides sheeping my wagon for a reason that ignores a lot of what I had said at that point. in other words I'm sheeping paper.

##Unvote

##Vote: Boron

this came like half an hour after paper voted her, is a blatant sheep with vague reasoning and comes off as desperate save after being too much on the fence about BBM.

This post bothers the heck out of me, considering that the only reason I see to not go along with BBM's plan is if he's scum.

[...]

I don't believe scum would want to be town leader, because that implies having a definite stance, which scum literally just cannot do.

so, uh

- BBM's trying to be to town leader

- we should reject BBM if he's scum

- scum wouldn't try to be town leader

the logical conclusion from your statements would then be

---> BBM's not scum because he's trying to be town leader

this contradicts your statement here

I'm not saying that thinking that BBM can be scum is wrong. At this point, I cannot say with 100% certainty that BBM is not scum, so I can't discount that possibility.

which comes off as one big waffle on BBM.

(though as others mentioned, yes, scum would want to be the town leader because then you've basically got town under your command but I see you're not familiar with OC)

Also, do you have any reads on anyone else than bearclaw? You voted him early, and hasn't said much about him since, is your stance on him still the same? You have a lot of comments that are just fluff, and there's very little scumhunting or reads on any other players.

NOW ON TO RECENT SUBJECTS my god there are a lot of posts.

-Rein is rubbing me the wrong way for only just having the one constructive post and then being like "hey guys this is great activity for me". Nah son, I wanna see some follow-up.

-Sangyul, why do you find me scummy? (this question always comes off as too self-conscious and rubs me the wrong way. if there's no clear argument of why you're scummy there's not much to defend yourself from and should instead be a point against the other player, getting defensive is suspicious) As far as I understand it you either disagree with or do not understand my initial position against Refa and also think my arguments have been sparse (yo, I told ya' guys I'm in midterm season (just for D1 luckily) and I'm trying to respond to people with the time I have). Also, how scummy do you find me?

-Elie's following a neat rabbit hole regarding BBM but otherwise has like no opinions? I get the sense he's been around so it seems odd that he can't offer any kind of read on anyone else.

-bearclaw I am okay with despite early stuff. I like his listpost particularly for quantifying most of his reads on active players fairly well.

-Rocker, having no vote and no scumreads, looks supes bad imo. ("supes bad" is a bit too much on someone who had, what, one post at this point. it hints more at inactivity than actively not trying to have scumreads which is bad but in another way) We haven't played together though and from interactions I suspect that I have some responsibility to adapt in this case. Regardless: scumreads please!

-Proto bothers me quite a bit because a lot of his posts have a lot of logical disagreement / discussion of theory / etc and one strong opinion against bearclaw which materialized when bearclaw had 2-3 votes on him. The scum pattern of finding a single hard nail with which to pin yourself to a wagon of about this size is one which I'm familiar with, particularly as it is a strategy I enjoy as scum. I'll need to reread here when I'm cognizant enough to digest a complete paragraph but I want more scumreads elsewhere, or more varied thought processes about bearclaw.

I think that's enough to earn bedtime. Oh, and I don't think that I've been in a game as town where BBM was scum, despite what games people imagine me having participated in.

In general Strege spends a lot of time defending himself from/with nitpicking about his case on Refa, and while I find Refa scummy it's for different reasons than the character claim thing which I honestly didn't think was a big deal in CHOOSE YOUR OWN ROLE MAFIA

##Vote: Refa

lynch preference right now goes

refa > bearclaw > strege

bear at least tries to scumhunt even if he has useless reads like POST MOAR, and while strege is self-conscious his reasoning and reads on people other than the refa thing is okay

list might change after I thoroughly analyze the other half of the game, more player comments coming soon since this wall is big enough already

[BBM]

Yeah so I woke up late and I have a midterm to get to so you don't really get anything until evening sorry. Things directed towards me that I remember from my skim of the latest posts:

@Elie- My role can't fail or be redirected or anything; that is true. And I've already admitted that I should probably have said something on N0 (though specifically asking for an inspect is still suspicious and I wouldn't have done that). I didn't though, so I'm not sure what your question is at this point.

@Shinori- I did mention why I didn't want to lynch Strege several times.

@Paperblade- What's a god to a non-believer?

[Strege]

Forgottorespond. Tothis. Whyareyoutrying. Toactlikethenorm? Thisdoesn'tsitrightwithme. DoingwhatIcan. Tohelptownwin. Ismoreimportant. Thanthenorm.

I mean that I thought it was generally safe to trust a claim like that, between my own thought processes about the claim and everyone's initial acceptance of it.

Elie, wrt my initial comment on bearclaw I've said that the part that concerned me was that he had content but I felt it was overly focused on casting doubt on BBM with a sort of hand-wringy tone (I still can't communicate this effectively). Looking back, it seems there were only two posts at that point and it somehow stuck in my head as more.

@j00: I asked because I felt like Boron was coming at my sideways in a weird way, but I'm not scumreading her right now.

Kay, I'm sorry but I don't quite understand your first sentence in response to my comment on you -- do you mean that your playing time is limited? At any rate, what wagon are you talking about regarding him? If he bugs you more than bear, why don't you have more to say about him? The same goes for SB actually, since he's tied for your top scumread and you've only talked about his possible contradictions regarding BBM.

[Zkirsche]

Lord the walls.

[spoiler=PB]

Strege is an easy wagon because he is new and is getting panicky and aggressive over something that's inconsequential (Refa asking for BBM's character). It's a lazy vote and easy to fluff up (Shinori has almost no content so I am waiting for him to post more stuff, and I have my vote for the other guy on the Strege wagon).

I don't really agree. If people wanted an easy wagon they'd go for bear like everyone else. I'm not convinced Strege is so clueless that he'd be so lacking in conviction.

I'm trying something a little different this game, btw. I believe I have a tendency to lose games because I am not direct enough with people and don't elaborate enough, and don't post things that I probably should (eg should have had Boron and Manix lynched in Spellcard). I don't think I've ever been endgamed as town and I'm pretty good at not getting lynched (I've only been mislynched once, and not on this site), so usually I have a tendency to stay quiet because I'm not sure of my reads and try to not die then win.

I never had you down for the self-depreciative type, and the complete 180 to being aggressive "reading the damn thread" strikes me as off.

I want people to explain why they feel Boron justified herself

I felt like her recent attempts at scumhunting and the way she had defended herself was adequate. Things have gone downhill since then, though.

Probably won't respond to Boron unless people insist on it since this might get emotionally charged and that would be bad

I don't see much wrong with this, not wanting the thread to become emotionally charged like that is probably more town than anything as emotional arguments are easier for the scum to manipulate than logical, well thought out arguments. You can say that it is an excuse to end discussion, but frankly sometimes discussions just won't go anywhere, so what's the point of having them? It's only a problem if he stops discussing things completely.

oh that was kirsche the first time

What exactly did I get wrong? If it's the misrep thing then see Shinori's bit.

[spoiler=Boron]

To be fair ... it did not seem to me like you were seriously pushing a case on me. After your response to my initial response to your vote on me ... you sort of stopped talking about me until asking people to comment on your case ...

I can believe this as it was my thoughts on the vote as well, and is probably why noone really commented on the vote until PB asked for it.

And I do not care if you do not believe me on this.

This, as GB rightly pointed out, is pretty defensive.

I really don't see what the problem is.

The problem is not a lot of that really needed to be said. This would have done fine:

I voted him again because I forgot to unvote the first time. As for me telling him to elaborate ... I will admit right here and now that I did forget that he made a post outlining why he voted BBM.

But instead you followed that with an excuse for your mistake and a passive aggressive statement which is just ATE fluff.

suddenly I'm second on your lynch list.

Second out of 2, it's not like you've jumped above three other people whom he had detailed arguments against.

everyone has their own way of how they respond, and I hope you're not judging my reaction by how you personally would respond in a similar situation

The tone of this just gives me more ATE vibes. Regardless, you're implying that GB should be meta gaming you and realise that you act like this, which is pretty scummy.

First, does it being unwarranted necessarily mean it's scummy?

When it's there just to ATE and get people to excuse a mistake though sympathy then yes, yes it is scummy.

) ... You are saying what I said was scummy ... because YOU couldn't see a reason to get frustrated? Do you ... not see a problem with this? Just because you can't see why something would frustrate someone else, that doesn't mean the person did not have reasons to feel frustrated that were legitimate to them. Also, if you want reasons as to why I would've sounded frustrated, go reread that post.

4) This is how I speak and phrase things. Outside of mafia as well. ;/

"You should consider how I feel and speak more" more ATE.

We can't just go excusing everyone for their tone simply because everyone's different, otherwise we wouldn't possibly be able to accuse people of being overly defensive, aggressive apathetic etc because we'd have to excuse it because of their circumstances.

[spoiler=Proto]

did not find BBM scummy, but disliked his plan.

To be precise, he said he was wary of BBM then on the next page he decided that in addition to the fact that his claim was off (in his opinion) he didn't think BBm was scumhunting and so placed a vote.

he was only making that vote because he was being pressured to form concrete reads

Who was pressuring him to form concrete reads? Refa voted him because he thought that he was being too paranoid about the massclaim idea and SB did the same and... that's all the serious votes on him at the time he made that vote.

I do still find BBM a bit suspicious for that roleclaim post

What about his other posts? He's done more than just roleclaim and nominate himself as town leader. If you're going to find him suspicious, aren't you going to analyse him more? It feels like you're keeping this BBM read for the sake of having a read and not actually following it up with any scumhunting or analysis.

Why are you still voting Shinori?

His vote on Refa was based on weak reasoning

He carried that reasoning all the way until his recent post where he unvoted and voted for me. This is the problem I have with Strege's vote, and he's scummy for that and caving in to other's opinions so easily.

[spoiler=Strege]

Kirsche, in post 163 you say my opinion on BBM was forced, yet you found it lacking conviction before that, and found it pushy before that. It really looks like you're just swapping interpretations to whatever is convenient in order to make me look bad.

The problem I have with you is that you were being pushy about an opinion which I found forced and then dropped it completely, showing a lack of conviction. I can't see why you can't be accused of all three at once.

You also accuse me of "more waffling", but unless you are talking about my BBM opinion (which I really don't think is waffling) then I don't think you've accused me of waffling before.

Your stance on BBM was like "This is what I think but I'm in over my head so maybe I'm wrong" which is waffling. I never used the term before this game I guess, but there's multiple ways of saying what I think.

You basically ignore my comments on Rein and Elie and use my comment on Proto and then accuse me of not talking about people that aren't Refa when I have been mostly talking about Refa because you and a few others demanded responses about him.

There was nothing to say about yoru comments on Rein and Elie, much like I found nothing to say wrt PB's Boron vote.

@Italics: The original complaint came from the fact that you can talk in depth about more than one person. Of course, if you're busy with life then you don't have time, and I realised this and made it clear that I wanted you to expand on your other opinions more than getting a response wrt Refa.

If you only voted Proto over me because you were forgiving my lack of conviction as meta (and I am sure it is only this because your comments on me were much more damning than on him) then how can you later call my opinion forced and "super scummy" yet not be voting for me?

You do realise that you were, and are, my second highest scum read right? You are entirely right that the main thing that stopped me from voting you is meta that I formed in Musical Chairs, right now Proto is worse though. You're "super scummy" opinion is why you're in second place and not fourth.

I'm also curious what issues kirsche was alluding to in post 183, where he decided to emphasize the fact that he has problems with Boron without delving into any of them (specifically with the "Nothing glaring at least." comment).

"Nothing glaring at least" implies that I have read through and can't find anything obviously scummy. It means that there might be something more, but I can't see what it is so please elaborate.

For me it leans toward sounding like he went for a listpost in order to find things to say and failed to find them.

What do you make of his SB argument?

[spoiler=eclipse]

Idon'tlike. Howmuchmeta. Stregehasbeenincluding.

Hmmm, other than meta gaming Proto a little I don't see a whole lot of meta. Also I don't really see the problem with meta as an argument, so can you give examples of his uses of meta which are bothering you the most?

Tonotreadin-depth. Youarereadingquiteabit. IntoBoron'swords.

Reading someone in-depth is different to reading something specifically in-depth. It's reasonable that he could see something which he thinks is off and then look/think about that more thoroughly.

Impressivenitpicking. OnBoron'spost. Despiteclaiming. Tonotreadstuffin-depth.

Is this really worse than saying a lot but not scumhunting like Strege and Refa? Who's trying to find scum more?

[spoiler=Elieson]

'll respond to these, because your numerical list doesn't seem to have as much behind it as you seem to think it does.

1. Have you?
2. Considering the amount of votes needed for a hammer, why is it even a problem?
3. You're using this very same logic right back at Boron
4. You found him suspicious but not necessarily scummy. I think you were focusing on BBM's Role blahblahstuff and less on his content. In 20 minutes you went from BBM isn't scummy at all to LYNCHBBMKTHX. BBM's claim gave us various things to work with and got us out of RVS quickly. TBH i'm still skeptical of his process of claiming, which I'll address later, but more am interested as to when and how exactly his claim was bad? You explained it, i guess, buttttttttt your entire case is built upon his claim, which does not make a case.

1. This seems harsh considering this is an attempt at scumhunting.

2. Commenting on how quickly and how large wagons build is common practice.

3. Boron isn't really a wagon.

4. Here you go from praising and finding his case good, to finding it bad. I don't like this 180.

Is Boron more scummy than BBM?

Clearly he thinks this as that is where his vote was when he started making that post.

Proto is your second scumread....who isn't looking that bad, yet is scummier than Boron

He explained this in his post where has says that he's happy with how Boron responded and now that he's cleared things up with her he doesn't find her that scummy. You're ignoring stuff to make him look worse.

Also maybe I'm just a derp but I really can't grasp this SB case.

How about you respond to the arguments presented against him then and then maybe it'll be cleared up for you. What exactly can you not understand?

Rocker64 > Proto / Strege

Why is doing scummy stuff better than doing no stuff?

First off, I found BBM's claim and all to be suspicious, but I didn't necessarily find him scummy for it

What? Suspicious but not scummy? If it's not scummy then surely it isn't suspicious?

Don't like the sudden realization of "oh hey this easy wagon looks okay".

This.

[spoiler=Shinori]

Not sure if I should say or not, however it's not something in a normal game though.

Well it's pretty hard to help you if we don't know how.

And I didn't really like the proto vote.

There's a lot of ways of interpreting this, so can I ask for clarification? Do you disagree with the reasoning behind the vote, do you think it is opportunistic, or is it something else?

I don't agree about it being based solely on a misrep.

To clarify:

You are trying to construe Bearclaw's vote as a pressure vote when he added that in one line after a really long post with his thoughts on BBM (even though I disagree with them) and trying to construe that as scummy.

which I interpreted as "You are twisting the facts to make it seem like it was actually a pressure vote when it wasn't and are pushing that misinformation to make bear seem scummy" which is basically saying Boron misrepresented bear's vote as a pressure vote. This was all that PB really said wrt Boron when I made that post, he has since elaborated.

I also honestly feel like you are defending Boron to some extent here without much reason to defend her.

The point I was making was that I could find no reason to attack her, and the reason why I said that was because PB asked for opinions on her/his case on her.

Spoilers were necessary, these walls are getting out of control. If you can't make time to read everyone's at least get your own section done.

Proto > Strege > Boron > Elieson >> SB

Reasons in a summary:

Proto: BBM opinion has been all over the place and is poorly backed up. Bad Strege defence.

Strege: No conviction in his own opinion wrt BBM and parked Refa for something which shouldn't have even been a reason to vote.

Boron: Lots of ATE and OMGUS.

Elie: Votes on the easiest wagon for poor reasoning.

SB: Focused on BBM over scumhunting early on. Not much good content overall.

I think that's everything. There was a lot though so apologies if I missed anything, point it out and I'll comment.

[Zkirsche]

Holy fuck that post took 2 hours. Ninja'd by people gimme a sec.

[Zkirsche]

Nah I'm happy with what I've put. j00's post is fine and Strege said nothing to particularly note down so I'm going to go get work done today.

[Kriemhild]

I was always suspicious of BBM, from the moment he made that claim. My suspicions still remain. And no, it's not because of the role itself, but because BBM claimed it and started making Town Leader plans. I still cannot figure out why a Town!BBM would claim that and start discussing ways of overcoming the problems in order to develop a proper Town Leader system, as if we would just blindy trust him like that. Granted, I cannot figure out why scum!BBM would expect us to believe him, but then again, it's far more likely that scum would play crazy mindgames to mess with our heads than a Townie, even though I have no idea what the intended outcome of this mindgame is.

As for why I only picked on bearclaw, and not anybody else, it was because his opinion on BBM his changed even though he already thoroughly analyzed his only relevant post. He has been discussing nothing except BBM at that point, and his last post before the vote had him clearly stating that he does not want to lynch BBM. Yes, I was suspicious of BBM myself, but not to the extent of voting for him. What I did not like was that bearclaw suddenly changed his mind about BBM, despite there not being any BBM posts or anything BBM-related that he hasn't already analyzed. This does not necessarily mean he's scummy, and I think he could be a weak Townie that easily gives in to pressure.

As for somebody who I do find scummy, that would be Paperblade. I couldn't agree with him on any of the points attacking Boron, and after some re-reading, I realized that he was pushing her quite strongly for a while, and I don't like his arguments to begin with. I also don't like the end of this post where it sounds like he's trying to find an excuse to back out of his Boron push, by trying to avoid an emotionally charged reaction. Yes, I am very well aware that Boron sometimes gets very emotionally charged during Mafia games, but that is definitely not a good reason to decide to ignore her posts. Sure, she'll never admit to being scum, but longer arguments leads to more clarification on both ends, which allows other players to make better judgments. Longer arguments also increases the possibility of scum slipping up and contradicting themselves.

##Unvote: Shinori

##Vote: Paperblade

Also, Refa needs to come back

[The Objection!]

Alright, I've finally done my reread (that wasn't so long now, was it?) and I would ##Unvote ##Vote: Elieson for making long walls of text which was a pain to read. Except not really.

@Strege

The second one is from Refa, which doesn't sound like forcing BBM to out his character but asking BBM about what he claimed. I think you have a misled knowledge on Refa's intentions. Explanations please.

Yes please, link to the post.

@Refa What is your current stance on Bearclaw? Is he still the most suspicious, or you found another?

Now for reads:

Not happy on Proto's lack of scumreads.... but I'm not one to talk.

Bearclaw's long post list is about 10x (this is an exaggeration) longer than it should be, posting about inactives is unneeded, learned the hard way.

Undecided on Refa, would wait for response. Over.

And now for my entire read on Bearclaw from a post by post analysis: (brace yourself)

# Posts 1 and 2 is RVS, not important.

# Post 3 is about being wary of claiming to BBM, still good.

# Posts 4 and 5 is where it starts to get interesting. I'll leave this here for future reference.

Not a valid reason to think BBM is scum but I think it's enough to doubt his claim.

He stated that BBM's role is not a valid reason to think he's scum, fair enough

# Posts 6, 7, 8, and 9 is a bunch of discussion about roles, other games, and other not so important stuff

# I'll leave post 10 here for future reference

I don't want BBM lynched, he has done nothing that makes me think he's scum besides make a claim that I feel to be scummy.

I've already stated that my feelings on his claim doesn't make him worth lynching to me.

# Post 11 is a 180 degree turn

BBM has done nothing townie-looking, (I'm having trouble with the words here so i might come across as vague) he claimed like that and then just sort of talked about his claim. I can understand that he was (and remains apparently) gone before stuff worth talking about happened but that doesn't mean he's not under my suspicion because he wants to basically become town leader and have everyone trust him with nothing but a suspicious (imo) claim to go on. (That was terrible and probably makes no sense...I'll attempt rewording when I'm back on pc)

followed by a vote on BBM, completely different from what he was telling us on Post #10. This post also gives off the feeling that bear wasn't voting BBM from finding him scummy but for being called out by Refa.

# Post 12 is an unimportant one-liner

# Post 13 states his 2 reasons for voting BBM

1. Disliking the way he claimed and how he's followed it up so far.

2. Wanting some reads from a potential leader (so a pressure vote I guess).

Remember Post 10? Apparently he doesn't. Which leaves number 2, the pressure vote.

# Post 14

You're voting someone else so unless you havw some cool role that won't work.

Only part of it is a pressure vote though, I have reasons to believe he's scummy and those are also a large part of why I'm voting.

Refer post 13.

# Post 15 and 16 blah blah blah

# Post 17 is a quick vote change to Boron and Post 18 has him give the logic everyone used to vote him and used it to vote Boron

# Too lazy to read Post 19, 20, 21

# Post 22 ^ read far above

# And by now I think I'll end it here since the rest don't look so important.

Basically, yes I find Bearclaw a little scummy and would like to renew my vote ##Unvote ##Vote: Bearclaw. Also, if I'm misrepping something, it's not because I mean it, It's because I don't get it / have a wrong understanding of it. Feel free to point it out.

[The Objection!]

Basically, yes I find Bearclaw scummy and would like to renew my vote ##Unvote ##Vote: Bearclaw. Also, if I'm misrepping something, it's not because I mean it, It's because I don't get it / have a wrong understanding of it. Feel free to point it out.

I have no idea how little got there.