Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[Paperblade]

Yes, and I have a scumread.

[eclipse]

Isaidotherscumreads. IsawthatBoronvote.

I'mofftobed.

[Shinori]

As the mod, aren't you supposed to either stay quiet about this or inquire about it privately?

After the phase ends, I won't be online for at least three hours. I'll likely be going somewhere else after that, so I'll probably be back 7 or 8 hours after Phase End.

Anyhow,

##Vote: Shinori

You tricked me into drinking poison at Spellcard Mafia, even though I was a Neighborizer and there were loads of other ways of verifying the existence of a Cult, including a proposal that I suggested before dying. Screw you.

I LOVE YOU TOO PROTO.

I really don't like BBM's claim because of Modmeta.

This is a really dumb reason but I really doubt Prims would give town a role that OP (see previous games by him and posts by him about giving a large town mediocre roles and a small scum OP roles).

Not a valid reason to think BBM is scum but I think it's enough to doubt his claim.

I also don't want to blindly trust BBM. However I do agree with Paper that a leader would be great.

Now on to other things. I haven't read too much of everything I've mostly skimmed since it's 3 am and I want to go to bed. I'll get a better post in tomorrow.

I think Kirsche's jump to be town leader seemed to be a little off. It seemed to me like he wanted to jump to the opportunity when Paper mentioned someone else possibly leading. Didn't really fully like that. It struck me as off.

I've got a few town reads that I won't state. Didn't really like Strege's overall posts and something struck me off about #146.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Strege

That vote may not be permanent but I wanted to get something down from my skim. I'll be back tomorrow with a better post.

Oh yeah and one thing that I do want to state, which involves my role. I'm essentially a vanilla unless specific other people would like to front me some help.

[Zkirsche]

##Unvote, ##Vote: Kirsche

The only way it is scummy for Strege to advocate people claiming to me is if we are scumbuddies. It doesn't benefit scum to have to claim to town, or for others to claim to town. If he's arguing for claiming to me, the worst you can say about it without my flip is that he's being dumb/illogical, which isn't the same thing as being scum.

Also AM/PM (assuming that's what you're referring to) is different because I was under suspicion from almost the get-go, so there was a good chance of me getting lynched D1. Due to this my plan became to give my buddies towncred from bussing them. Bussing your buddies is also a completely different gambit than trying to become town leader on D1.

@Bold: Buddying up to a potential leader is a thing. I bet you're already liking him more just because he backed you up. Also my entire case on him is not just "he thinks we should all claim to BBM he must be scum" it's also the fact that despite his opinion on the matter he insists he didn't mean to be pushy about it. Basically, he has no conviction in his opinion whatsoever which strikes me as completely off. Plus you're not exactly clear and the two of you being buddies is not an impossibility.

Just because it's a different gambit doesn't change the fact that you have been known to make risky plays as scum. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Am/Pm, think it was something else. Elie said Shining force IIRC.

So far your only suspicions have been two people who have been very vocal about their disagreement to your plan, added to the fact that you're kinda defending Strege who was one of the few people to agree with your plan makes it hard for me to take you seriously right now and has sort of cemented my belief that there shouldn't be one.

Wrt to your encryption plan, it would be telling everyone that X is being targetted and that X,Y,Z aren't, which could backfire. I really don't see the need of a town leader, town have done just fine recently without all this needless organising. I would, of course, much rather be it than BBM as FMPOV I'm confirmed town but tbh I wouldn't do that from the position of you guys and of course organising is hard.

I was actually thinking what bear put about SB as I was walking into uni today. I thought his vote was weird after he made it but dismissed it to focus on Strege and now that I look back his vote is really bad. All he's said wrt bear was that he was being overly vocal about his disagreement with the town leader plan when bear had made like two posts on the matter at the time of his vote, one of which was a line long and the other was filled with modspec which he didn't really comment on and is a bad reason to vote someone regardless. In terms of opposition, I was much more vocal at the time when he was around and he never responded to my thoughts on why claiming would be bad or criticised me in any way. He's lurking hard and I want more stuff from him.

I don't see how Strege was pushing a massclaim to BBM

That's just my interpretation. His relevant posts at that point had been an attack on someone who fished BBM for flavour and the post defending his attack, saying he thought that claiming to BBM was a good idea, then criticising bear for spending multiple posts criticising BBM. That, IMO, looks like buddying up to BBM, which can have it's benefits for scum if they think the town leader plan is going to happen.

Also when I called him out for it he was like "oh no I didn't mean to sound pushy you guys are probably right I'll just agree with you because I haven't played in many town leader games" which is weird.

Oh, and I don't think that I've been in a game as town where BBM was scum, despite what games people imagine me having participated in.

I think you were scum in this game. Pretty sure he got you lynched D1 and it sort of kept on going from there.

Also your case on Refa is really weak (flavour fishing and "slippery" logic, whatever that means) and there's so worse out there, you even describe Rocker as looking "supes bad" which sounds worse. Another thing I don't like is that you like bear's listpost but you don't actually comment on the reads he presents. Your Proto comment got me interested though. After a quick scan I found this pretty quickly:

I still find it a bit suspicious though, because BBM somehow expects us to roleclaim to him and appoint him as a Leader (directing our actions) without presenting any evidence or even any flimsy reasoning about him being Town.

I see absolutely no reason to find BBM scummy.

Both are quotes from Proto. This 180 is definitely weird, but what's weirder is that he does it again:

BBM, the main reason I found your claim suspicious is because not only did you roleclaim in that post, but you even started getting into detailed plans on how we should execute the Town Leader interactions.

So he goes from finding BBM slightly suspicious, to seeing no reason to find him suspicious, to finding his claim suspicious.

Also despite all his attacks on bearclaw, he hasn't actually voted him yet which could be a concealed attempt at not looking like a sheep. His vote is still on Shinori whom he voted in RVS.

##Unvote

##Vote: Laevateinn

Willing to pass Strege's lack of conviction as meta for now. Would like him to expand more on people not named Refa though. Proto case was good but not voting still keeps him at the scummy level.

Proto > Strege > SB >> everyone else.

There goes my hour free...

[Paperblade]

Well you're opening yourself up to all of that just the same simply by trying to run claimtomes and town leaderisms. Now it's just as likely as N0 for a theoretical Tailor or Kidnapper or whatever to nab you, only now the circumstances are worse because you can be killed tonight, whereas last night that was one less negative scenario that could hit you.

This is actually p. dumb, why would a cop target BBM over anyone else?

also kidnappers are stupid, you should probably kill yourself for suggesting them as a real thing

I think if anyone itg is trying to fearmonger about this town leader plan, it's Elieson

[Paperblade]

I will now elaborate on the above:

BBM is right, you never inspect the guy asking to be inspected. That's just sloppy. We can't even trust the guy that's confirming BBM, so why does Elieson think this is a thing that's gonna happen? "BY THE WAY GUYS I WAS INSPECTED BY A COP IN A PRIMS GAME THAT'S TRUSTWORTHY RIGHT?" yeah no, even if there is a cop he probably doesn't even work on half the scum if he even exists (BBM could claim some safeclaim from a scumbuddy cleared him)

##Unvote ##Vote Elieson

[Zkirsche]

Back again, last things:

Oh yeah and one thing that I do want to state, which involves my role. I'm essentially a vanilla unless specific other people would like to front me some help.

Help how?

Also eclipse made a wall containing not very much scumhunting. She poked PB a bit, which is all well and good, and defended bear, which is also good; but that's it aside from telling people to post more. Her vote just reads as a pressure vote and not a vote on someone she thinks is actually scummy. I'd like her to discuss other wagons and other topics of discussion, especially what she makes of PB's Boron vote. If she thinks PB is trying to coast off the town leader talk and not scumhunt, what do you make of his apparently only attempt at scumhunting. Also, does his push on Elieson change your opinion/thoughts on him?

[Paperblade]

I'm not being singled out

but it's still dumb since she doesn't exactly have multiple scumreads either unless she thinks the whole game is scum

[Zkirsche]

I guess not, but I'm interested in those things nonetheless.

[Strege]

I find your initial case on Refa odd. I can understand finding a person suspicious for rolefishing ... but I fail to see how Refa asking BBM what character he picked constitutes as rolefishing suspicious enough to warrant a vote. He literally said, "Wait, what character did you pick?" before you decided it was enough to find him scummy.

... If Refa did nothing else but talk about flavor after asking BBM for his claim then I could understand a vote on him as well ... but I do not understand your reasonings as to why what he did do makes him the worst.

At this point in time, I find you scummy enough to be worth mentioning. Your voting Refa for "rolefishing" does not sit well with me, because I do not understand why this is so scummy when all he did was ask what he claimed.

Because BBM hadn't claimed character, so it wasn't "asking what he claimed" but rather "asking what character he was" which /is scummy rolefishing/.

@Bold: Buddying up to a potential leader is a thing. I bet you're already liking him more just because he backed you up. Also my entire case on him is not just "he thinks we should all claim to BBM he must be scum" it's also the fact that despite his opinion on the matter he insists he didn't mean to be pushy about it. Basically, he has no conviction in his opinion whatsoever which strikes me as completely off. Plus you're not exactly clear and the two of you being buddies is not an impossibility.

[...]

That's just my interpretation. His relevant posts at that point had been an attack on someone who fished BBM for flavour and the post defending his attack, saying he thought that claiming to BBM was a good idea, then criticising bear for spending multiple posts criticising BBM. That, IMO, looks like buddying up to BBM, which can have it's benefits for scum if they think the town leader plan is going to happen.

Also when I called him out for it he was like "oh no I didn't mean to sound pushy you guys are probably right I'll just agree with you because I haven't played in many town leader games" which is weird.

[...]

I think you were scum in this game. Pretty sure he got you lynched D1 and it sort of kept on going from there.

Also your case on Refa is really weak (flavour fishing and "slippery" logic, whatever that means) and there's so worse out there, you even describe Rocker as looking "supes bad" which sounds worse. Another thing I don't like is that you like bear's listpost but you don't actually comment on the reads he presents. Your Proto comment got me interested though. After a quick scan I found this pretty quickly:

[...]

Willing to pass Strege's lack of conviction as meta for now. Would like him to expand more on people not named Refa though. Proto case was good but not voting still keeps him at the scummy level.

Proto > Strege > SB >> everyone else.

There goes my hour free...

Responding to bits in rough order: Having conviction when you're in over your head intellectually is The Worst Thing -- seriously. I didn't realize that you were connecting my bear and Refa comments to my BBM opinion though, which makes more sense. However, at that point BBM's claim was the only interesting thing occurring so I'm obviously going to look at people's reactions to it for reads. I didn't look for people being too trusting because I honestly thought that super trusting was the norm. I realize this is an awful set of thought processes and yeah I'm that bad at anything glancing on OC.

By Refa's slippery logic I mean the implication that you can not doubt someone and not think that they are scum at the same time, presented in a way that looks to my like grasping to keep an invalid point alive. It doesn't look like your read my complete opinion of Rocker. I thought the presentation of bear's listpost was more telling to me about his alignment than its content, so that's what I mentioned, though I also meant to delete that because sharing townreads 24 hours in is dumb. I have also mentioned other people not named Refa and have a vote down so I don't know what you're asking me to do.

Also, I have not been scumbuddies with BBM where he bussed me, and I tend to think of him as pretty methodical scum in his way. Heck, he was even a wet blanket about me bussing him for funsies in Drafters (which was admittedly the better play). Going though old games I realized that you were convinced of BBM and I being scumbuddies starting early in Musical Chairs (my last game) when neither of us were scum because we sort of attacked attacks on each other. I guess it's just sort of a thing we do as a result of being friends, and while I can't toss of your arguments on these meta grounds I would ask that you consider the history here.

I was going to reread Proto now but I literally don't have time after responding to this. I will dig through email notifications on the subway and post something later.

[Kay]

The way BBM claimed was pretty bad, he seemed to assume everyone would believe him instead of bothering to put himself in the minds of townies.

No, this was the towniest thing about his whole claim. He just did something without thinking about whether it would look scummy. Scum, on the other hand, would almost certainly not make such a proposal without thinking a great deal about how it would look, therefore if anything, they'd be much more likely to offer a bunch of justifications right off the bat for why they should be trusted.

I think a town leader would be useful but it does not necessarily need to be BBM

Is there someone else you think looks that townish at this time?

If I prove my role would people prefer me as leader?

Mine is super easy to prove.

That depends almost entirely on what your role is.

BBM could you explain why my push on you is bad? I can

The stuff that BBM's been posting makes me feel better about him but I'm still kind of wary.

A quick re-read has me feeling bad about Boron, she hasn't done much (if anything) so far besides sheeping my wagon for a reason that ignores a lot of what I had said at that point. in other words I'm sheeping paper.

##Unvote

##Vote: Boron

Um, what. You can explain why your push on BBM is bad? Are you getting ready to say "BBM is just saying this because he's scum and wants to shut me up"? Did something happen to part of your post>? You're saying it's bad because you have a different opinion now? If none of the above, please explain yourself, including why you would do something you know to be bad, if applicable.

The only way it is scummy for Strege to advocate people claiming to me is if we are scumbuddies. It doesn't benefit scum to have to claim to town, or for others to claim to town. If he's arguing for claiming to me, the worst you can say about it without my flip is that he's being dumb/illogical, which isn't the same thing as being scum.

Eh, nothing wrong imo with saying he looks like he could be your scumbuddy as long as we don't focus excessively on stuff like that.

After semi-precious it would be hypocritical of me to feel that way. I understand that busy schedules happen. However you seemed to be around enough to read through and only commented on me, I don't really like this because others were posting.

If you only have a little time, it's reasonable to skim through things and just post about what catches your eye and you feel confident giving an opinion on without knowing the context well. I don't consider this scummy.

... Well, that certainly wasn't my intention to make it sound as such. But it bothers me enough to earn him my vote. I agree with his initial point on not claiming to someone who's not confirmed. But looking back at his ISO ... he says that he does not like BBM's claim because of "mod meta" and states that it's enough to doubt his claim. Later says that he never doubted the truthfulness of BBM's claim, just his alignment. Unless I am misunderstanding the first post that I linked, this strikes me as weird.

Also ... states here that he doesn't want BBM lynched. But decides in this post that he's suspicious enough to vote. This is about half an hour later. What changed your mind so fast?

Eh, I got the impression he was saying BBM's role was too good for town, but he believed that BBM was scum and still had the same role?

Kirsche/Proto scumbuddies imho

What happened to you saying it didn't work to accuse people of being scumbuddies without a flip?

4. Rein, His vote on me looks like good scumhunting and I can't fault his reasoning there, tunneling(ish) is still lame though and you have posted when other stuff is around. POST MOAR.

9. Kirsche, I'm null on this guy, I think he scumhunts well enough and his last post made a comment that makes me think he's going to look townie once roles start being outed. (I hope that's not for a while though.)

10. Proto, BBM's statements here are how I'm feeling about him basically. Not ready to say he's scum but he's definitely looking worse than most.

4. I don't think you can really legitimately accuse people of tunneling at this point.

9. That doesn't sound null to me but okay.

10. Uh, saying you're not ready to say someone is scum when they're your second scumread looks really waffly. I know there's a difference between saying someone is one of the scummiest people and saying they're definitely scum, that part's reasonable, it's posting about the distinction that bugs me. Because that way you can say later on that it wasn't a very strong read, you didn't really think he was scum, etc if you're questioned about it. Like, for example, if Proto flips town. You contribute to suspicion, while still leaving a way open to dodge blame.

Bear, there's no point to including null reads and POST MOAR's into a post. It doesn't contribute in any way or share new info. Keep it to your townreads and scumreads.

Why do you want him to list townreads?

BBM, the main reason I found your claim suspicious is because not only did you roleclaim in that post, but you even started getting into detailed plans on how we should execute the Town Leader interactions. As if you actually expected us to just blindly trust you like that. If you were going to roleclaim, that's fine. But if you start proposing techniques to make the Town Leader system work, you should be giving us a reason to believe that you're Town. Flimsy reasoning is not inherently scummy, but it implies weak attempts at achieving something.

I don't agree with this, as I said earlier, lack of self-consciousness isn't a bad thing.

Also all in all this was the bad kind of listpost imo.

Whyisthis. Evenrelevant? We'dfindout. OnN1.

No, it's a good question because of the thing about BBM not saying anything on N0.

Shinori really needs to explain what it is he doesn't like about Strege's posts. I now seriously am a bit suspicious of Paper for his insistence that he's met his quota of scumreads. JSND looks really bad, mostly for grasping (saying the way BBM claimed was scummy when the rolespec didn't work) and then waffling, but I think it counts for something that he's so unfazed by his enormous wagon. So my top scumread is the guy who said these seemingly contradictory things and then vanished.

The only reason I would object is that when a lynch is certain, SF has a habit of doing fuck all for the rest of the day, which would kind of screw us if BBM dies.

Prims probably made the setup non breakable through massclaiming like this. If we try to play the rolegame then we'll probably be punished for it.

imo we don't claim to BBM unless someone can clear him or something. I probably can't get on because of timezones anyway. If it's a really dumb reason, why suggest it in the first place? I feel like you're just trying really hard to get people to mistrust BBM at this point.

##Stab: SB

[riariadne]

Alright I can't respond to everything I'd like rn cause school but this is one thing I feel I need to say

Because BBM hadn't claimed character, so it wasn't "asking what he claimed" but rather "asking what character he was" which /is scummy rolefishing/.

This feels like a severe overreaction to the single least important part of the role. This reads as pretty bad to me because you're being really persistent about something so minor and it seems pretty opportunistic imhotep.

also I was joking about activity I'm not sure how anyone took that seriously

[Zkirsche]

Responding to bits in rough order: Having conviction when you're in over your head intellectually is The Worst Thing -- seriously. I didn't realize that you were connecting my bear and Refa comments to my BBM opinion though, which makes more sense. However, at that point BBM's claim was the only interesting thing occurring so I'm obviously going to look at people's reactions to it for reads. I didn't look for people being too trusting because I honestly thought that super trusting was the norm. I realize this is an awful set of thought processes and yeah I'm that bad at anything glancing on OC.

I disagree, there's no way to learn if you just buckle to everyone else's opinion and it shows that you haven't really thought through enough what the best course of action is. The best thing to do at that stage is think it through more, not force an opinion for the sake of having an opinion, that's pretty much the definition of a forced read and is super scummy.

By Refa's slippery logic I mean the implication that you can not doubt someone and not think that they are scum at the same time, presented in a way that looks to my like grasping to keep an invalid point alive. It doesn't look like your read my complete opinion of Rocker. I thought the presentation of bear's listpost was more telling to me about his alignment than its content, so that's what I mentioned, though I also meant to delete that because sharing townreads 24 hours in is dumb. I have also mentioned other people not named Refa and have a vote down so I don't know what you're asking me to do.

Wrt Rocker, I read the whole thing but the latter part is just more waffling.

Wrt Bear, sure, but what are your opinions on the reads themselves? That's a much more important part of his listpost and much more indicative of alignment than just the presentation. I'm not asking for much just to expand a bit on a few players not named Refa.

Also, I have not been scumbuddies with BBM where he bussed me,

I swear I am not making this game up, but maybe I am. I'm not thinking of musical chairs though, neither am I thinking about shining force. Iunno this happened last game too, I must be dreaming up games with BBM acting in certain ways.

Anyway, I'm not alone in thinking that BBM would make this kind of gambit and that's the main point, why I think so isn't important FMPOV.

I was going to reread Proto now but I literally don't have time after responding to this. I will dig through email notifications on the subway and post something later.

I understand that I'm probably pressuring you a lot when you don't have time to spare, so instead of bothering trying to explain yourself any further (because I'm pretty stubborn on stuff like this), please expand your thoughts on bear's list post (something I actually want everyone currently voting bear to do) and get that proto reread and we'll go from there.

Pedit: Rein sums up why I'm not really too happy with the Refa votepark nicely.

[Refa]

Argh, why did you people have to post so much, you are literally the worst (nah jk, activity is way more fun than no activity).

Am making a really long winded reply curently, followed up by a read post.

[Elieson]

Welcome to Post Dump 2013, sponsored by Elieson. No thank yous are necessary.

##Vote Strege

For not segmenting his Vote in an easy to read place. That shows a lack of conformity man, and all deviants must be lynched from society.

Initially, this was just an RVS. Note, it's developed into an actual vote due to now being on a top scumread. I defffffff didn't expect that tbh.

#YOLO

For one hour during the night phase, I can create a public OC irc channel (people on it can't talk privately; they must speak in the main chat for the channel). Of course, the way to get around this is for us to decide beforehand exactly which hour is best for the most people, and then we can split it up into 5 minute blocks where only one person other than me is allowed in the channel, and they can claim their role to me or something and I'll tell them what to do. And then I'll give them a number or something, and as I'm also Insomniac, if I need to change their target after I talk to some more people, I can use the numbers to tell them in-thread.

#NOCTownLeader #WINNING

Valid plan, but still non-indicative of alignment, so it's rather risky when you've given us nothing to go by in terms of reasoning to trust you. Not finding this scummy, but there are points to consider which can build to a scumread.

...What character did you claim?

V

I'm wondering why you asked BBM to character claim, as a quick reread would show that he had not done so explicitly and his claimed abilities are very provable.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Refa

Seriously, you voted Refa for this, implying a scumread on him. This is horribad pressure and you should be kicked in the chin for suggesting it.

Wait, is this an actual scumread of yours? I think it is, and I find it scummy to have such a vote-worthy scumread on a simple question that doesn't really mean anything unless you're basing scumhunting on flavorspec, which seems distracting more than anything else.

I really don't like BBM's claim because of Modmeta.

This is a really dumb reason but I really doubt Prims would give town a role that OP (see previous games by him and posts by him about giving a large town mediocre roles and a small scum OP roles).

Not a valid reason to think BBM is scum but I think it's enough to doubt his claim.

Don't like his claim because Modmeta, ok.

Doubting his claim isn't really a point worth following because it's extremely provable under various circumstances. If he were to have said something like "Miller" or "Bomb", that'd be an extremely unprovable claim. Also, why are we considering Modmeta in this, like, at all? Rules even state something like "don't rolehunt".

not sure how to interpret/10

I find asking for a character claim odd because it's revealing information unnecessarily. There have been several roles that care about flavour/character (examples exist in Toonami and Avatar mafia if I'm not mistaken). Flavour can also hint at abilities (and we don't know that BBM is

fully claimed). Flavour fishing is generally not the worst, but it seems like a fine thing to inquire about at this stage. I don't find Refa scummy but I'm interested in his response to my explanation.

Personally I don't think BBM would play this as a scum gambit, though a little doubt is usually healthy. I don't really understand town leader setups in general but I feel like the risk of implicating his scumbuddies would grow fairly quickly if scum!BBM started calling shots.

JSND, do you have any minor scumreads at this point? I can't expect much from anyone early on but it makes me slightly uneasy that you're spending a lot of your posts ensuring that people don't pass BBM off as town, but without opining about or questioning him or anyone else.

Flavor hunting is bad, man, and you're doing it. Toonami definitely did (uhh, I hosted it, I should know), and IIRC eclipse's mafia (I can't remember what it's called) had a flavor cop in it, but it's still no reason to find someone scummy IMO.

Also, you don't find him scummy, but voted for him.....meaning.....you find him scummy enough to maintain a vote on him....ok?

Re your BBM & JSND points. You literally contradicted yourself here. You ask JSND to post scumreads, then give him a reason not to have any. Then you bring up that doubting BBM is a fine move, but then get "slightly uneasy" with JSND being equally suspicious of BBM. All you've done is question why Refa asked BBM's character, and talked about his role. You're not in a position to talk.

Of course I'm going to be "throwing" suspicion on BBM. What would you do when it looks like the entire town is happily going along with claiming tl an unclear.

BBM's role worrying me is kind of obvious at this point, why is it scummy to not like his plan?

Also, I've never said I doubt the truthfulness of BBM's claim, I've said that I doubt his alignment. There's a huge difference.

So what's your read on BBM then?

Which game was that? Regardless, I realize I was probably to quick to invest myself in the claim. I've only been in one game with a town leader (who was actually town (Shipping mafia)) so I'm mostly being influenced by what other people think is strategically sound. That said, I'm still reading BBM's presentation of the dealy as not-scummy-looking.

Of course I know that Refa wouldn't be scummy for fishing for alignment-relevant information -- if Refa were mafia then alignment-relevant information would hardly be relevant anyway. I'm saying that flavour can have role implications, and that I saw asking for that information in the way he did as possibly scummy.

100% not what I meant by that. I was only explaining my thoughts on the most relevant thing going on. I literally said that I don't understand how town leader setups work in general and in doing so was soliciting input such as that which Kay provided. I understand how my comment comes across as pushy...

I had to skim some other things but I'll come back and read after this midterm. Ahoy!

I'm pretty sure that at this point, your vote is still on Refa. In fact, it's still on Refa to this very minute. Yet, you don't think he's scummy. You're holding a vote on him (which at this point can only be defined as a pressure vote) while defending it by ignoring it. Your entire reason for voteparking on Refa is due to his single question towards BBM. The suspicion, I can see where it stems from, but you're not indicating that you have any actual reads on the person in which you're voting for. Rolefishing is a bad thing to do (and hell, I've done it enough to realize it), but in a game where you choose your own character, why's it a bad thing to demonstrate curiosity?

Oh, hey Refa also posted something that i should answer. I'm going to explain a bit more. If what I say seems to contradict other things I've said than I'm bad.

BBM is not guaranteed to be town so claiming to him would be kind of dumb.

The way BBM claimed was pretty bad, he seemed to assume everyone would believe him instead of bothering to put himself in the minds of townies.

BBM has done nothing townie-looking, (I'm having trouble with the words here so i might come across as vague) he claimed like that and then just sort of talked about his claim. I can understand that he was (and remains apparently) gone before stuff worth talking about happened but that doesn't mean he's not under my suspicion because he wants to basically become town leader and have everyone trust him with nothing but a suspicious (imo) claim to go on. (That was terrible and probably makes no sense...I'll attempt rewording when I'm back on pc)

I find BBM's role to be at a level of OP'ness (if used to it's full ability) that Prims opposes giving town. This was my main thing at first (and while i acknowledge that it's a lame reason BBM himself used it in Semi-Precious and you are kind of using it in Oneshot so) several people disagreed and continue to disagree. I don't mind people disagreeing but it would be nice if you guys could state why you disagree.

At this point my last reason is kind of fading because it's so dumb.

...

Writing this all out has madee realize that I'm more suspicious of BBM than anyone else rn (even if some of the reasons are pretty meh)

So... ##Unvote

##Vote:BBM

I just want to highlight this post as the post that brought JSND from a neutral to the scumdread of scumreads on BBM. Pulling back suspicion on BBM's role brings your case down to the following:

Not doing town things

poor claim process

So, coasting on a claim. This is a good point. The claim itself, well...I'm pretty sure I've expressed concern on this. Though my concern is different than yours, it shares the same base. He conducted himself poorly, if he's trying to become town leader. Maybe I should Meta BBM and pursue this further. Eh, I'll do it later in this post.

That's not the only reason I'm voting BBM though...

My suspicion started with that but when I voted I was a lot more focused on me:
1. Disliking the way he claimed and how he's followed it up so far.
2. Wanting some reads from a potential leader (so a pressure vote I guess).

This sums it up better than my last post I think.

Actually, yea, this does sum it up better. If nothing better, would sheep/10. Still, there's Strege, but this is a decent alternative for later, at this point anyway.

... I am not willing to claim to someone ... who has not been proven town. It bothers me that BBM expects us to follow blindly ... with the way he barged in and started giving orders.

Strege ... I disagree with your assessment that BBM would not do this as scum. Because scum would love to be in charge ... calling the shots. If they can do it in a way ... that doesn't implicate themselves or their buddies ... even better. Also ... I don't understand ... your issue with Refa's asking BBM to claim his character.

The flavor speculation ... around BBM's role compared to Proto's role in Touhou ... is not helpful, so let us stop that. I believe BBM's role. I have no reason to believe his alignment.

Paper, tell me ... why should we believe someone ... who has not proven their alignment? Some of us are ... not as good with working under town leaders, and some of us ... have good reason to be reluctant to claim.

##Vote: bearclaw

It strikes me as odd ... that you would spend so much time speculating BBM's claim, but not vote him until much later ... and even dismiss your own vote on him as a pressure vote. It feels like you're distancing yourself. Trying to put suspicion on him ... but not truly committing to finding him scum ...

the incredible amount of ellipsis are making me laugh~ Srsly though, what's your position on BBM?

You're voting someone else so unless you havw some cool role that won't work.

Only part of it is a pressure vote though, I have reasons to believe he's scummy and those are also a large part of why I'm voting.

Wait so the process in which he claimed is more scummy than his lack of other contributions? It should be the other way around. That's a poor foundation (comparatively) for a vote on a scumread.

If I prove my role would people prefer me as leader?

Mine is super easy to prove.

Considering we're still suspicious of BBM's role being reason to make him town leader, why the fudge would your role make you a better town leader?

Proto's role in Touhou Mafia allowed private communication too. So Proto could have easily taken the position of being a "leader", and get people to claim to him privately. That way, a town role would get all the information, and it wouldn't benefit scum any more than it would in BBM's current role. But BBM's role has to deal with different timings and such because everything is public.




Like I said, refusing to appoint somebody as a Town Leader =/= finding that candidate scummy. I mean, obviously, if you find the candidate scummy, you'd refuse appointing them as the Town Leader. But, if your read on the candidate is neutral, that's enough reason to reject his appointment as a Town Leader.

And finally, I see absolutely no reason to find BBM scummy. He claimed an ability that can easily be proven and that's it. He said nothing noteworthy after that to make him look townish or scummy. Everything after that was the rest of us discussing BBM, while BBM himself was quiet. bearclaw's vote on BBM does not seem to be based on the roleclaim itself, but based on how the rest of us decided to deal with it, which has absolutely nothing to do with BBM's actual alignment.

The first part seems so fabricated (what with the third person referencing). Something seems really off about this. The argument is too pre-built. I swear that this looks like scum copypasting something from scumchat.

Reads on BBM then? You seem to have nothing, versus a forced neutral position that several others seem to have displayed.

---

At this point, I'm looking at:

Not Scum

People

Forced Neutral/Null

BBM

Potental Scum

Proto

Strege

---

And that's up to Page 5. I fell asleep on my keyboard last night while typing up this & a new resume. Catching up on the rest now. My Read on BBM is different now, I'm just outlining my thoughts through the process of reading, and as they developed.

[Refa]

Is it just me or do half of the people in this game appear to be under some arcane sort of post restriction? REGARDLESS,

How do you typo Hitler as God

Hahahahaha, I just noticed this.

That wasn't the point, I don't think. I think the point was that the QT forced people to talk in the QT, make role claims in the QT, etc. Now, some discussion was had via IRC, but pretty much everything with claims was shared by kirsche and Paper. WRT IRC, only BBM would get the details. Which, if he's scum still sucks, but everyone that's a part of it doesn't get the information. Therefore it's not the same thing.

Ah, OK. I'm not actually familiar with Touhou Mafia, so I just went off what bearclaw said. There's a first time for everything.

Actually, if BBM doesn't have to be in the channel we could maybe let someone else lead?

I think it would be for the best for BBM to lead, considering his abilities. Whether or not people should claim I'll leave for another time.

Only part of it is a pressure vote though, I have reasons to believe he's scummy and those are also a large part of why I'm voting.

AmateurTip- Pressure votes don't actually pressure if you tell them that you're pressuring them. That's just not how it works, man.

Proto's role in Touhou Mafia allowed private communication too. So Proto could have easily taken the position of being a "leader", and get people to claim to him privately. That way, a town role would get all the information, and it wouldn't benefit scum any more than it would in BBM's current role. But BBM's role has to deal with different timings and such because everything is public.

Wait...did you just reefer to yourself in the third person?

@BBM can you make a key encryption?

OK, so I'm dumb and need some clarification on what exactly you mean. I was thinking like (for example) assigning each role action (e.g. watch, doc, vig, etc.) to a number, so that BBM could just list two numbers (one for the person, one for the action), and it would be easy to understand without scum being able to notice. Probably would end up needing to be more complicated, but that's the basic gist of it.

Also it's not my fault you guys are a bunch of atheists.

I prefer the term agnostic, tyvm.

I just noticed that I didn't reply to something:

Nope -- I meant the explanation of why I think character claiming makes a difference which I present in that very post, and this is the first post of yours after it.

I don't think that character claiming would make a difference. Not really sure how that would help with rolefishing, considering it'd be easy to fit a single character into a wide variety of roles.

Will into reads next post...probably.

[Refa]

Actually, that wasn't nearly as painful to read as I was expecting. I guess I saved most of the actual content for the reads post...

[BBM]

@Kirsche- If it was decided that I was going to become town leader, then it would make sense for Strege to try and buddy up to me and push a massclaim. As it was, the majority of people were (and still are) against claiming to me, so all he would be doing is maybe create a town leader where none had to exist. I also really don't know which game you're talking about, because in Drafters, the only game where we were scumbuddies, the entire scumteam survived. The only game I can remember where Strege was scum and got lynched D1 was C9++, and I was town there and got mislynched D2 so ???

Also Strege's tone is really different when he's scum (he chooses his words much more carefully and you can tell).

However I am pleased with your recent posts even if I don't agree with your case against Strege so ##Unvote, ##Vote: Proto

@Kay- I was just pushing them as scum independently of each other. My point is that for Strege to be scum, you have to push us as scum together.

Refa's quote of Scorri in that post reminded me of something- Considering Scorri not only played in Touhou but was herself in the neighbour QT, she should remember how we treated the QT itself. Almost no relevant discussion occurred there; everything important was in private OC. Additionally, Kirsche was never even in the QT.

More in the evening.

[Zkirsche]

If it was decided that I was going to become town leader, then it would make sense for Strege to try and buddy up to me and push a massclaim. As it was, the majority of people were (and still are) against claiming to me, so all he would be doing is maybe create a town leader where none had to exist.

Maybe, but in the event you are pushed through he's in a favourable position in your eyes so it's still suspicious. At worst, his buddying up to you doesn't result in anything. At best, it leads to him being trusted by you for the rest of the game. Ok, it'll organise the town in the process but it will stifle discussion so it's a race to win wrt roles.

Considering we're still suspicious of BBM's role being reason to make him town leader, why the fudge would your role make you a better town leader?

It doesn't, but if you're looking for an alternative with an easy to prove role, I'm here and more than willing.

[The Objection!]

I bet everyone forgot I was playing. Time to make you remember!

Props to Prims for sorting everyones' names by the alphabet.

I also don't want to blindly trust BBM. However I do agree with Paper that a leader would be great.

I'll lead if you want.

Also, my role is easy to prove. But it would be dumb for me to do it this early.

Now for the serious part.

First off, BBclaiM seems honest and easily provable. This does not however, clear him completely. So, I'm against massclaiming D1 (or at least I won't claim D1). Everyone already said this anyway soo.... next.

Refa asking for a character claim isn't scummy, and looks to be based on curiosity. So I'll leave it at that.

I never actually found Strege weird enough until his most recent post, which I quoted:

Because BBM hadn't claimed character, so it wasn't "asking what he claimed" but rather "asking what character he was" which /is scummy rolefishing/.

...What character did you claim?

The second one is from Refa, which doesn't sound like forcing BBM to out his character but asking BBM about what he claimed. I think you have a misled knowledge on Refa's intentions. Explanations please.

No, this was the towniest thing about his whole claim. He just did something without thinking about whether it would look scummy. Scum, on the other hand, would almost certainly not make such a proposal without thinking a great deal about how it would look, therefore if anything, they'd be much more likely to offer a bunch of justifications right off the bat for why they should be trusted.

This is a pretty good point by Kay, unless they're scumbuddies and this is all planned (unlikely). Inclined to trust Kay and BBM right now. (although I still won't claim)

Will post better stuff when I reread this thread again (will happen soon, I promise).

.... Hail the Jews. Also yes, I believe that roles ARE based on flavor (at least my role is).

[Bluedoom]

Shit guys my eyes bleed wtf.

I don't agree with the case on Strege. Strege's vote on Refa isn't really substantial but the paranoia is understandable- even I'd vote Refa for character-fishing... well I thought I would've, until Eli's recent post reminded me that this is Choose Your Own Role Mafia. I'm willing to give Strege the benefit of doubt.

##Vote:Proto

Don't like that flip flop from suspicious-->no reason to suspect--> suspect again.

Elieson thinking BBM should've asked for a cop scan N0 is not really suspicious to me, but the recent post where he sustains his vote on Strege isn't working for me either. The first sentence says he didn't expect to sustain his vote on Strege. And see, I was expecting him to elaborate on that immediately, but then he quotes bearclaw in the middle of that entire post? Actually there are too many quotes of other posters(especially bearclaw) and this feels so scattered I can't really take your reads seriously.

The irony of that post of yours is that you talk so much about bearclaw but he doesn't feature in your read list(he's just lumped with 'People' under 'Not Scum'), but the first time you talk about proto, he's on the leaning scum side?

kisrche's paranoia earlier was bugging me but his recent posts seem better. Besides that, I think if kirsche was scum he'd have shown us the finger and gone inactive by now.

Bearclaw's paranoia about BBM was buggin me too but that list post doesn't look like it'd come from nubscumclaw so I'm willing to think he's town for now.

[Bluedoom]

*facedesk* And then I see the disclaimer and the end of Eli's post that he read until Pg.5 . Meh, I think I'll wait and see what happens.

[SB.]

why does bearclaw want all of the votes on him to be at the length of the entire works of shakespeare 24 hours after the game start

I read kirsche's #97 as kind of sarcastic myself, as a way to illustrate why we can't trust BBM right away.

Someone who's not showing any kind of resistance to the idea looks worse than someone showing more than the sensible amount of resistance to the idea.

A sensible amount of resistance in my book is just saying no and explaining why. DA BEAR blew that completely out of proportion and thought BBM was scummy for it despite the fact that multiple other townies have done it in the past. Scum have too, but it's a null tell, not a scumtell.

But I don't think he's said anything since and he was at least on to end phase in Oneshot, kind of suspicious of him.

I'm sorry for not being online at 2:30am? That's a pretty weak suspicion.

17. SB, Doesn't actually give reasons for voting me at first (didn't realize that at first) and then only explains by saying I'm overreacting. I'm not entirely certain that's a scumtell (I won't argue the logic though, I would like an explanation for the logic). He also isn't really giving any other reads atm despite seeming to have been around (if he wasn't than idk what to think anymore). Definitely finding him scummy.

Actually, I did. They're here, where I didn't like how you discreditted your own case and I felt like your reaction to BBM asking to be town leader was over the top and you were really worried about an organized town.

I'm also not sure why you expect people to have multitudes of reads early day 1. I also don't like how you seem to be willing to lynch BBM still after saying that his role doesn't matter and that your opinion on him is improving but you haven't actually said why he's scum.

BBM, the main reason I found your claim suspicious is because not only did you roleclaim in that post, but you even started getting into detailed plans on how we should execute the Town Leader interactions. As if you actually expected us to just blindly trust you like that. If you were going to roleclaim, that's fine. But if you start proposing techniques to make the Town Leader system work, you should be giving us a reason to believe that you're Town. Flimsy reasoning is not inherently scummy, but it implies weak attempts at achieving something.

You claim to be suspicious of BBM's actions, but how does anything you've talked about make him scum? The bolded in particular.

I would consider bearclaw as being either scum, or a weak Town

Why not just scummy? This feels like you're covering your tracks here.

-Agree with Elie's calling out BBM for lack of N0 sleeptalking and would like an explanation.

I don't like this. First off it feels like it's twisting Eli's intentions here to make it sound as if Eli found BBM scummy for it. Second, why does it need an explanation as to why he didn't use it? This goes for Elieson too.

Strege's point on Rein in #146 bugs me. It feels like he was attacking Rein for making a joke over something actually scummy.

I don't get the accusation that I'm lurking hard? I have sleep, school and other stuff to do as well and we're not even 48 hours into the game. That just feels like grasping.

Don't really like Kay's case on me either. I've already mentioned the lurker thing, but those posts aren't even contradictions. I never said that claiming to BBM was a bad idea if he ended up cleared somehow. What I was implying is that his role was as broken as DA BEAR seemed to think it was as Prims would've balanced the setup to not be completely broken by a town leader strategy. Even if it doesn't break the game it can still be useful though, but obviously can have side effects such as people relying on investigations to lead lynches. Please don't take my posts out of context.

Content with my vote atm.

[Prims]

Day 1.3 - Votals

bearclaw13 (5) - Objection, Serious Bananas, Refa, Boron, Reinfleche

Elieson (3) - scorri, eclipse, Paperblade

Proto (3) - kirsche, BigBangMeteor, Bluedoom

Strege (2) - Elieson, Shinori

Serious Bananas (2) - bearclaw13, Kay

kirsche (1) - Grassbridger

Refa (1) - Strege

Reinfleche (1) - j00

Shinori (1) - Proto

Not Voting (2): NekoRex, Rocker64

With 21 alive, it takes 7 to deadline lynch and 11 to hammer. You have 33 hours and 50 minutes left in the day.

[NekoRex]

My other game has been sapping all my time, and I can't find anything to really comment on in the game so far :/