Big NOCers - Game Over

[Strege]

j00: (small scumread)

-> To clarify why I asked you about the Manix/Conq thing, I thought for a while that at the beginning of the game you just said "I don't get why everyone is asking about Manix's Conq comment" and then "Manix why did you comment on Conq?". It sounds like you genuinely weren't just stirring up scandal though, based on your responses.

-> I can now see why you might have seen Vhaltz as overreacting and pressed on this but I still think the case was Bad (in a bad way) because it never explained why the reaction test was scummy. Is it a policy thing? If so, why didn't you give a nod to that before blasting Vhaltz for his case against you when he said "yo this feels like a blind policy thing" as part of that case? If this is going to be a long explanation I'll just drop it because it it's marginally productive, but a response would help my read.

-> Basically I misread j00 as being fixated on his Vhaltz case but now I see that there was some reason for it. I do think he was quick to discredit BBM's and Vhaltz's (164, 171, 195) cases as "gut" when they had more to them, and too adamant in general to defend himself (a vote from BBM triggered a response vote and Vhaltz's suspicions seemed to accelerate that whole deal, if I'm remembering everything right).

Balc: (small scumread)

-> In retrospect his main post 78 is like "here are my thoughts in a display case see how legit they are". Comprehensive but not proactive.

##Vote: SB

It's really the death of a thousand cuts for me wrt SB. I'll be catching up on D2, settling on an opinion of Manix, etc. I hopefully won't fall asleep in the meantime.

[Refa]

I looked back at your content and I well...exaggerated some of my points against you. Like my biggest issue with you besides your lack of material (which can be applied to other people as well) is overexplaining an ED1 vote; other people are pinging me a lot more currently. Still bothered by your lack of content and reads, so you're a null for me ATM. Also not sure why you'd care about my opinion considering you're scumreading me?

[Refa]

That was @Manix, obviously.

[Grace]

refa: it's actually relevant because if you were still scumreading me then it'd look like you were talking to me as if i looked town enough, sooooo

[Grace]

anyway my laptop is running out of battery and i have class soon anyway so i must be off. i might keep up on my phone while i'm gone but i will not be posting

[Strege]

Yeah my original argument on Manix was a thing but nothing stands out to me lately. I can't find if I got a response though (I don't demand one, but eh).

Elie: why do you have a growing scumread on Manix? Also, is the phrase "I don't like how she waved off BBM's "tryhard" efforts" relevant to your scumread on eclipse? (if so how? etc etc)

Refa: when I last heard you had a small townread on Vhaltz, and you've been scumreading eclipse for a while and Vhaltz bolstered that, and now a sudden switch to Elieson? What's up?

-> I forgot to mention this: I felt like Refa's response to my last push on him in 182 was good -- I read too much aggression into much of what he wrote on certain people. I settled on the realization that I was kind of out of sync with him, but the above is a big WTF for me. Nullread, and I am confuzzled.

sleeps

[eclipse]

FIRST: I will be saying more about a certain thing postgame.

SECOND: I have something like half an hour to review everything. It's time to speed read.

[eclipse]

My impressions: The lot of you would've been better off lynching me than No Lynch. . .and if you can't make up your minds, do it instead. Even if I'm town, I'd rather lose my player slot than have everyone lose the game.

Wall of text, and I'm not sorry. You guys did this to yourself by posting everything right before phase end.

First, my Paper vote: Consolidation. That's it (really do you see the sentiment of "so a lynch happens"?). I wanted to see someone lynched, and SB had asked a bit before about consolidating on Paper (ISO this yourselves). I don't regret that vote, nor do I regret the responses I'm about to give, since the sense I'm getting is a combination of grasping/lack of reading comprehension (neither of which I approve of).

Vhaltz post. I was waiting for a post like this - no meta, and things pertinent to the game itself. Sad that Vhaltz had to sub out, but I'll still respond to his stuff.

The thing about Vhaltz using meta was that he made it the foundation of his cases, I voted him because that made his cases bad.

I agree that it felt like eclipse voted him because she was tired of his meta, but her explanation was that he got "passive" and suddenly started to avoid Kaoz, which sounds like an excuse. If the meta really bothered her he's been doing it all game, she could've voted him for it earlier.

I figured I'd make a case on Vhaltz as an example of "how to make a case without using meta", and as I was reading his posts again, I noticed that neutral-to-passive trend, which puzzled me. I'd expect the opposite reaction, because Kaoz isn't exactly making himself scarce on the mafia IRC channel.

I like how I go from null to bottom of the scum list without doing much of anything. My vote on Paperblade WAS forced - in this case, by time constraints. The rest of this reeks of personal bias ("the Vhaltz vote was bad", which I can't say shit about because I don't see any logic as to WHY it's bad). While I'd be mildly irritated for being lynched D1 for the sake of a lynch, I'd rather NOT be lynched on what I'm reading as a case of vibes. . .that late into the day.

What's Paperblade's scum/town meta?

CONQ WHY?!

If you are lynching me based on meta you should probably vote someone else because you obviously don't know me well enough to meta me.

Sorry dearie, I voted you so a lynch would happen. Fat lot of good that did.

I'm bothered that eclipse jumped on my wagon when the only time she ever addressed me before was asking me for reads. You've had two days to follow up on that if it bothered you, yet you wait til SB and Vhaltz are jumping on me?

So a lynch would happen. It's not like I didn't write that when I voted for you.

enjoy being wrong

If you have nothing constructive to say, keep it to yourself.

oh right

eclipse's vote only looks as forced as the time constraints on it; which means even if it does look a bit forced (which i don't agree with), circumstances dictate more than you're considering

This guy gets it. Also, if there is a vanillarizer, I wouldn't mind being a test case - it should get rid of the Ninja modifier, and the rest of my role can be sacrificed for the greater good.

I don't think Eclipse is scum; I don't remember her ever making fakeclaim gambits.

FOR ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO LIVE BY META: I do this in OC only.

Further reasons why Eclipse isn't scum- she knows that there's going to be a flashwagon with the votes so spread out and so little time left. She'd just become tied with a bunch of people for the #1 spot. Why would she vote Paperblade, someone with only one vote, when she could have voted j00, who had 2 votes? Either she's buddies with j00 or she's town.

SB requested Paper, not j00.

@Paper- that just makes the wagon on you better consolidation than Refa?

I know this then contradicts what I said about her voting you when you were bad consolidation

maybe I'm looking into Eclipse's Paperblade vote with rose-tinted lenses because her other actions seem townie to me but idk

You read my motives right.

eclipse is a thing, I tried looking at her not!me things to see if I was just being dumb but her #113 and #128 really bug me. She's buddying with Conq and the reasons for the townread on him feel really arbitrary? idk, I didn't have any issues with Conq's posts by then but I didn't think they were indicative of alignment either, treating the claim like it came from town just because he claimed it early and it involved calling votes upon himself by deadline makes no sense. I don't think Conq in particular would've had any problems at all with claiming a role that benefits from grabbing a few votes it as scum (he'd get benefits out of it role-wise and buddies could get away with voting him at deadline) and the way she immediately assumed that he gets some kind of investigation on people voting him and talked about sorting out who goes where at deadline sound like a scum perspective on the role and wanting to control it.

I also dislike her reaction to my reply wrt Kaoz because she essentially just talked about unrelated stuff, did nothing with it, and then acted like I didn't reply to her in her last post at deadline. She said she thinks a Kaoz flip would give her a good associative read on me which implies that she thinks we're buddies, but how is that any different from a Manix lynch considering I didn't follow up on my ED1 suspicion on him in-thread either? I don't think town would call for a vig on Kaoz only for the sake of associative reads instead of actually calling it on somebody they considered scummy and it's opportunistic considering that Kaoz said he had no time but would get better next week.

I can't think of a role that would specifically request a wagon that wouldn't get some sort of informational benefit off of it (unless it's something weirder than my role). 'sides, I figured that we'd be disorganized as all fuck if we had to vote a wagon and Conq at the same time. . .and lo and behold, we couldn't even get a lynch out, because the game was all over the damn place. So much for trying to get people on task. ;/

You keep making the inactive excuse for Kaoz, despite the fact that he had all of one post in-thread about it. Manix, at least, was trying to keep up, even if I got the sense that he was skimming. Throughout the day, I see you mention Kaoz quite a bit. This dude got my sentiment of Kaoz down pat - you, on the other hand, kept mentioning it. That's why I have the two of you linked in my notes (link still exists, BTW).

Have fun answering that, Elieson.

See you in some other game guys, I learned my lesson to not sign up for a game when I know it's going to get busy, I was just glad I was invited and wanted to participate I guess

@Prims Requesting replacement

And now for something completely unrelated: Thank you for playing, and may things be manageable during the busy time.

I never knew Billy Mays was an inventor! Hopefully Paperblade's reads weren't horrible and he gave a townie some awesome invention. Don't think the person should claim unless it benefits town, but obvious statement is obvious. Anyways...

##Vote: eclipse

Let's get things started. In addition to what I said before, Vhaltz brought up some good points during the night phase. Also I do want to say that I'm not bothered by Manix claiming a role that doesn't do much because my perspective should be obvious? Also only one person died, so either our vigilante/SK got roleblocked or scum's the only one with the kills. : <

"I'm going to use someone else's arguments to supplement what is essentially a case of vibes." That's the impression I got from your case on me late D1.

Hi Elieson~! Your notes and your vote do not match.

First, Vhaltz has a good case on me, and then he votes Vhaltz's replacement. I have no idea what to make of this.

I feel like Balc's actual content post was just a rehash of everything that was commented on up until that point.

This is false. Balcerzak was the first person to question my ninja claim.

I don't like how she waved off BBM's "tryhard" efforts, I think it's weak how she's voting for Refa primarily because Refa's not voting for her (WIFOM), and pretty much her entire followthrough wrt Refa. I'm probably lingering on the BBM-Manix pokefest, but the only thing that really shook me from it was Manix's clami. I did just notice how she dropped a Voteworthy scumread on me/Vhaltz, and I find her very last post to be jawdroppingly noncommittal with her vote for Paperblade. Keep in mind, she unvoted for lynch consolidation purposes, but then said that to get a better read on me, that she'd like to see Kaoz shot. She went from a vote to a waffle, and maybe I'm just bias because it was technically on me last phase, but I don't understand how her Vhaltz read's development, and I can't see town thought for presenting such an allovertheplace thought pattern regarding a top scumread at consolidation time.

That's why it's intown bickering in your notes, right?

I suggest rereading the WHY behind the case - his vote on Manix at the time was doing nothing, as Manix wasn't around to do anything. Meanwhile, he was trying to push my case onto Paperblade (go read his ISO), which I felt was really scummy - it's like trying to get someone lynched without having your name next to the flip at hammertime, which is a strong case in my mind. That's also not a waffle - that's me suggesting one way to get a better read on a player slot, while taking care of an inactive player at the same time. I could make a snippy comment about that last sentence, but I'll do this instead: If my "scattered" post can't be from town, then neither can your notes, because they're even more scattered, and you had far more time than I did to consolidate them. In other words, that's a null tell, given the time constraints. . .so I'm being voted on a difference of opinion, me voting your slot for reasons that you don't agree with, and a null tell. I had a better opinion of Vhaltz after his night posts, but then your posts have changed that for the worse.

Eclipse: (scumread)

-> Her suspicions float around. As a reminder, her vote goes from SB to Refa (with some comments on j00 afterward) to Vhaltz (I don't understand why but ok) (though please explain why); I think she really doesn't pursue her reads on Refa or Vhaltz (I don't have a problem with her SB vote though, and the Paperblade vote belongs to the endgame brouhaha that I can't immediately pull anything from).

-> I just noticed that after voting SB for jumping on Manix she doesn't say anything about the fact that Refa sheeped SB's case (self-admittedly). There was an intersecting period when eclipse was suspicious of SB and Refa when this could have come up but didn't, and I would like to ask why.

-> In the end, her saying she wants to vote Refa most of all makes no sense. Why? Maybe it's because I don't understand the first sentence of 183 at all. -> In her last post of D1 (244) she does talk about j00 and Vhaltz too but can't pin them to any place on the scumspectrum. This is mostly a point against her in its representation of how her read on them has been so empty.

I'm sorry for not getting to every single nitpicky detail in the entire game, complete with MS Paint pictures. That addresses most of the points. For the last bit, j00 needs to come back, and I wanted Vhaltz to make a non-meta case first (which he posted after I left). The timing was unfortunate, but that case made me feel better on him (before Elieson appeared). Busy posts are what BBM/Manix did during D1 (or that's my view on them). . .but this has a lot of detail for someone whose time is supposedly being dedicated elsewhere, and this strikes me as odd.

I really don't like Refa's and Elieson's cases against me - the former screams vibes, and the latter is poorly supported. I want a bit more out of j00, now that there's a non-meta case from Vhaltz (which I believe was a part of her scumread on him). Kaoz, I know you're reading this. . .I have X in my role PM, with X being a positive integer - this is the number of content posts I think I'll need from you to get a half-decent read on you.

As I'm miffed that the only reads I have are about people who are discussing me, and I KNOW I'm missing something, no vote right now. Should have my laundry done by tomorrow, and more time to dedicate to this.

[j00]

BBM: I received your restriction but have no idea what it is because I had so many PRs already the new one didn't have any effect

yeah

[Kaoz]

^PEdit: I don't think I'll be able to supply a thousand posts, sorry. Not gonna respond to anything else of the above (and may or may not do so in the future) since this post is long enough as it is and I've spent too much time on this anyway.

All right, I should be around more from now on. I apologize for the inactivity. The reason why I wasn't prodded was (probably) because I explained my reason for not being around to Prims after noticing that the 15 hour estimate I had given in my last post had already passed, in case anyone wanted me to answer this. Enough of this though and on to more relevant things.

To comment on current wagons first, I'm not interested in either the Manix or eclipse one.

Manix's responses have felt pretty natural to me in general, I have reason to believe his claim (i.e. that it's not a fake) and don't see what the mafia would gain from his role (does anyone else? Like anything actually useful and not just a poor excuse for a role cop?).

As for eclipse, stuff like the vig call on me makes perfect sense for her as town (get rid of someone you can't read due to inactivity while getting more information on another slot), so I don't see why anyone has an issue with it. If anything the way she worded the call makes me feel pretty good about her slot. Also, what's the scum benefit in claiming Ninja ED1?

Next, while I usually don't like talking about town reads, I have very little in regards to scum ones at the moment, and so that people know where I stand on more than two slots, I'll make an exception here:

-Refa feels on the townie side to me due to stuff like his recent #402 (like I don't feel he'd so freely admit that he exaggerated a case as mafia), his insistence on that eclipse should've voted him over Paperblade yesterday and just the general tone of his posts.

-Next up, Raymond. Might come as a surprise to some, but his #235 is what gave me a good feeling about him. Like, there's nothing really special about the content, just the way it's worded, especially the "Get your shit together, guys.", gives me the impression of town trying to push the game into the right direction rather than mafia posting fluff.

-The last one I want to mention here is Conq - there's actually nothing specific I can cite that gave me this read, all of his posts just feel like they're bleeding green townie blood.

---

@Manix

How do you feel about BBM at this point? You made that disconnect observation in #219 which was worth noting in my opinion, but I didn't feel bad about his posts otherwise and they seemed to flow pretty naturally. So basically, how do you feel about him both in general and when limiting yourself to the tone of his posts?

Also, same tone question regarding Refa.

@Raymond

Disregarding Manix's claim, how does his play fit into your lynch priority from yesterday, i.e. SB, Elieson(/Vhaltz), j00?

---

Like I mentioned before, I'm not feeling very strongly about anyone when it comes to scummy content right now. I do however like Strege's SB case in his #397 enough to vote there for the time being.

##Vote: SB

Hopefully I'll get around to rereading everything in the near future and hopefully I'll have some better scum reads afterwards, but that's gonna take a while and I feel like I should really just get a post out at this point, so I'm gonna stop here for now. Should be back sometime later today.

[Kaoz]

Screw you, j00. PEdit was obviously directed at eclipse's post.

[j00]

reads will come later, didn't have much time to do anything but skim and well, I had a PR to fulfill before I was allowed to do anything else

[j00]

Quick mention about scumreads from previous day: still don't like eclipse and Manix

Manix's claim is null, it's a weird role to claim and certainly not typical scum, but also a convenient role cop fake. also it might be dumb of me to point this out but I'm assuming it checks for functional vanillas, and considering the amount of PRs in the game it's not inconceivable to believe some players are functional vanillas until they fulfill some PR. I don't think it's entirely useless.

He's got no more content since last phase and has literally been on Refa the whole game, and he hasn't got any other scumreads. The Refa seems to build on the fact that he doesn't like Refa's votes on him and eclipse, and seems in general very nitpicky.

eclipse's later votes really hasn't been good, the Paper vote was admittedly for consolidation but Refa has a point in that other wagons could've been viable at that time and that she hadn't mentioned him before.

##Vote: Manix

comments on eclipse and others in later post

[j00]

I was reading Vhaltz as town in the end, comments on his replacement:

Scum

-Balcerzak

-BBM

-eclipse

-Kaoz

and while I'd like to vote Kaoz, it's probably going to get absolutely nowhere because Kaoz never posts ever

##Vote eclipse

Let's g

Both you and Vhaltz are letting him off the hook too easily, especially in the beginning of a phase you've got no reason to not press him if you find him scummy

also very eh on your comments, they're kinda a mess and you say you waffle about a lot of stuff. That tier list I posted was also part of my PR, go figure

could you clarify your BBM read? You seem to find him scummy because of the Manix-Conq-question thing waaaaay back early in D1, you still think it's big enough of a deal now?

[eclipse]

eclipse's later votes really hasn't been good, the Paper vote was admittedly for consolidation but Refa has a point in that other wagons could've been viable at that time and that she hadn't mentioned him before.

Did you guys miss the part where I said I did to to consolidate at SB's request? If someone requests a wagon consolidation, it is not completely unreasonable to think that they'll vote the same way (which means that if I vote that way, it's a guaranteed two votes on someone, which is what consolidation is).

Now, question for you: You said that Vhaltz's cases were weak, earlier. Did anything change your mind, and if so, what?

[j00]

I figured I'd make a case on Vhaltz as an example of "how to make a case without using meta", and as I was reading his posts again, I noticed that neutral-to-passive trend, which puzzled me. I'd expect the opposite reaction, because Kaoz isn't exactly making himself scarce on the mafia IRC channel.

still don't think the neutral/passive thing was very scummy, but it's not something I really noticed at all. But seriously, you really just made a case on him because you were tired of him using meta??? If so, it doesn't work if you don't admit the reason and post a case with an unconvincing reason, and making cases because his meta use was annoying should've happened a lot earlier.

honestly though I don't have much trouble with the other stuff she said today, but you haven't explained you wanting to lynch Refa at the end of D1, since his vote on you was after you disappeared.

oh and this vote justification for Vhaltz is horrible

[eclipse]

still don't think the neutral/passive thing was very scummy, but it's not something I really noticed at all. But seriously, you really just made a case on him because you were tired of him using meta??? If so, it doesn't work if you don't admit the reason and post a case with an unconvincing reason, and making cases because his meta use was annoying should've happened a lot earlier.

honestly though I don't have much trouble with the other stuff she said today, but you haven't explained you wanting to lynch Refa at the end of D1, since his vote on you was after you disappeared.

oh and this vote justification for Vhaltz is horrible

It took longer for me to get annoyed with it than you. Also, feel free to think my case is horrible - if I thought it was that bad, I wouldn't have made it in the first place. I'm not you, and my actions won't always conform to what you think should be done.

As for my Refa statement, nothing had changed my mind about him - he came back after I left, and that's a RL timing issue that neither of us can change.

[j00]

Vhaltz cases was weak because weird reasoning in the beginning about BBM vote and reaction tests nonsense, and he did stuff like placing SB at top town read because of meta

It became a townread because his belief in his methods read as genuine town rather than scum trying to bullshit a case. Scum would take what other players said about this stuff in consideration, it wasn't even about defending his case in the end, it was about defending his methods, and it only drew negative attention. Even if scum might not have changed methods completely, scumbuddies would probably warn him against holding on to cases entirely based on meta.

Didn't agree with his Paper vote but I could see his reasoning but it was sound enough and I could see his reasons.

I dislike his aversion to Kaoz but it doesn't make sense regardless of alignment to announce that you're gonna avoid someone because of meta.

Currently null on Elieson, but it doesn't add up to a suspicion rn

[j00]

But if you made that case because of his meta use, why come up with another reason? You're admitting the reasons you stated for voting him (passiveness) aren't the same as the reasons you decided to make a case on him (annoying use of meta). And since you went back to Refa and "nothing has changed about him", you had better cases to pursue than BS one on Vhaltz, I just don't get it

gotta run to class, more reads later, should reread Refa and Scarlet, haven't read Kaoz yet and only skimmed Strege's wallpost

[j00]

one more post for the sake of spamming, Manix has caught up as the usual king of spam and we can't have that

[eclipse]

Vhaltz cases was weak because weird reasoning in the beginning about BBM vote and reaction tests nonsense, and he did stuff like placing SB at top town read because of meta

It became a townread because his belief in his methods read as genuine town rather than scum trying to bullshit a case. Scum would take what other players said about this stuff in consideration, it wasn't even about defending his case in the end, it was about defending his methods, and it only drew negative attention. Even if scum might not have changed methods completely, scumbuddies would probably warn him against holding on to cases entirely based on meta.

Didn't agree with his Paper vote but I could see his reasoning but it was sound enough and I could see his reasons.

I dislike his aversion to Kaoz but it doesn't make sense regardless of alignment to announce that you're gonna avoid someone because of meta.

Currently null on Elieson, but it doesn't add up to a suspicion rn

I don't agree with this logic, as bussing exists (which means it's in scum's best interest NOT to correct such things). I didn't mind his Paper vote, as it was a case that wasn't built using meta, which is what I was looking for - it's easier to pick apart the details when a case is tied to the game in question, and not past behaviors. Buddying/distancing are also tools in everyone's kit, which is why I factored it in (now whether or not I caught all interactions is another matter).

I should go to bed soon. I'm beginning to ramble.

[eclipse]

But if you made that case because of his meta use, why come up with another reason? You're admitting the reasons you stated for voting him (passiveness) aren't the same as the reasons you decided to make a case on him (annoying use of meta). And since you went back to Refa and "nothing has changed about him", you had better cases to pursue than BS one on Vhaltz, I just don't get it

gotta run to class, more reads later, should reread Refa and Scarlet, haven't read Kaoz yet and only skimmed Strege's wallpost

I don't think we're going to agree on this (and you seem more invested into discrediting me rather than trying to understand my side, if that BS comment is any indication), and I think that responding to points against you is more important than pursuing something which will go nowhere.

[Scarlet]

What is it with Vhaltz's/Elieson's slot and constantly ignoring my questions?

Pretty sure he wanted me lynched by the end of D1?

Yes, but for what reasons? Basically, he voted you for... ...what did he actually vote you for? Like, he said he thinks your logic is bad / you're mudslinging, but that's very vague with no examples given at all, and he never explained how it relates to you being scummy.

Basically, it feels like he tried to push a case on you and then come up with reasons for it, rather than the other way around. Why would a townie do that?

@raymond: refa already pointed it out but i did want refa lynched at the end of D1 after speedreading during that time. remember my distinct lack of time didn't allow me to get much time to get reads in the first place. so you're wrong.

Again, for what reason? Being busy is an excuse not to have a lot of reads, but it's not an excuse to BS a case on someone.

Not liking the associations between Refa and Manix. In particular, Manix making a terribly weak vote on Refa and the latter defending him for it!?

Liking j00's #409, that completely went past me. That does look a bit odd.

Kaoz! You exist! \o/

@Raymond
Disregarding Manix's claim, how does his play fit into your lynch priority from yesterday, i.e. SB, Elieson(/Vhaltz), j00?

I'd put him at about the same priority as SB right now.

To be precise:

Manix = SB > Refa > Elie/Vhaltz

SB hasn't posted anything in D2 yet, and while his play after I was gone didn't worsen my read on him, it did nothing to improve it, either.

Refa is where he is for the weird logic/buddying regarding Manix and his case on CLIPSEY! D1 being really bad / using shady logic to paint her in a worse light.

Dropping the j00 suspicion for now because after finally dropping the Vhaltz thing, their other content seemed alright so far (although I disagree with their logic regarding CLIPSEY! and am a bit annoyed by the amount of spamposts), so I'm back to a null read here.

[charlie_]

Longer night phases tend to screw over my thought processes so I'm gonna do a quick reread now.

[charlie_]

Refa, what made the Vhaltz slot go from a townread to voteworthy?