Big NOCers - Game Over

[charlie_]

Don't like eclipse's response to Refa's vote on her? She says that she hadn't done anything to go from null-scumread in the time between the posts, but Refa said he hadn't read up to date in the first post and I don't think that his case was that bad anyway? There's also a bunch of filler in the massive wall. (In the same post) I think your justification for making a Vhaltz case is kind of ridiculous, and the fact that he should've known Kaoz is still on the IRC channel is a weak one at best considering some people leave IRC on when they're afk, and Vhaltz never visits the channel anyway so how would he have known?

Basically, SB was the first to bring up the PB lynch as a serious possibility (or was he? I'm going off memory here, might need to re-read), and when it ended up not happening, PB proceeded to die at night instead.

Then again it might just be a coincidence or the mafia pulling a WIFOM, so I'm not sure what to make of it.

I'd say this is linked to Paper's death, but only because my push on him made him start posting in a way that got people to start townreading him, imo.

The last page or so is making my eyes glaze over a bit, so I'm gonna leave it for a little bit.

[Grace]

@sb: my result is a not-vanilla one on an alive player. which isn't very helpful

also that nagging posttone thing is kicking in again. except it seems a touch more obvious now; there's a lot of questions being appended to opinions and it makes them read really weird and non-committal? i think there's a better way to describe it but i can't put my finger on it exactly (distant? next best guess)

i know what i mean but words are hard

i have been spacing out a bit and i need sleep. later

[BBM]

Sorry guys I have a bunch of reports due today that I've been up all night doing.

Skimming some of the posts, I have to agree with what Conq said about Balcerzak. Bal wasn't really tunneling on Eclipse, and if he was, dropping her just because of that and not giving any feeling about her is kind of lame.

I agree with SB about Strege's vote on him; Strege could be scum.

Everything is due in about 14 hours and 42 minutes, so I should be free then!

My role should show up in the next votals.

[Grace]

oh right, just before i do go though

poke me with lots of sticks and/or vigshots if i do not get a reread out tomorrow (not game day tomorrow, RL tomorrow), seeing as i have vague gutvibey reads that i can capitalise on

[BBM]

oh yeah conq said he had a dayvig shot I think? I think Balc might be a good target. Also Elie.

[Elieson]

Filed my taxes last night, and did some web work. Fell asleep on my keyboard and have like 800,000 "n"s on Notepad, plus a really stiff back.

But, I'm at work, and i've got time to play catchup. I did some closer examinations in between FTP uploads last night and have a few things to point out regarding BBM and SB (as well as appppparently, questions to answer, that I missed, or something).

TO THE ISO-MOBILE!

[charlie_]

also that nagging posttone thing is kicking in again. except it seems a touch more obvious now; there's a lot of questions being appended to opinions and it makes them read really weird and non-committal? i think there's a better way to describe it but i can't put my finger on it exactly (distant? next best guess)

i know what i mean but words are hard

ISO me in ITTD and you'll see I do the same thing with question marks there.

[Prims]

Day 2.2 - Votals

Elieson (2) - BigBangMeteor, Refa

Manix (2) - Raymond, j00

SB (2) - Strege, Kaoz

Strege (2) - Conqueror, SB

Balcerzak (1) - ????????

eclipse (1) - Elieson

Refa (1) - Manix

Not Voting (2): Balcerzak, eclipse

You have 35 hours and 15 minutes left in the day. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[Elieson]

Pretty sure that's what BBM was going for.

Still seems useless to me. What was BBM hoping to achieve like at best, 10 seconds before phase end?

BBM, what were you hoping to achieve at phase end with that vote?

Can someone with Manix scumclaim meta tell me if he goes for the weird claims as scum or stuff like doc/cop etc?

Elieson's disconnects and all that being pointed out is cool except: I still don't really think Vhaltz was scum and given they're the same slot the alignment hasn't changed. And every time I've seen one of those mass noteposts they've been disorganized as heck (which is why I ignore them and people should stop posting them). Although why exactly are you voting eclipse, Elie? The catch-up post was basically useless to me wrt that.

Manix tends to stick with safe fakeclaims, from my memory of being scum with him in CMV.

Voting eclipse instead of Kaoz because existence is a thing and I'd rather vote for someone early in the phase when they're actually here, and lynching could become a thing, rather than would become a thing.

Voting eclipse instead of BBM because I'm not confident in my ED1 slapfight vs Manix case to pin him as more townie than her.

Voting eclipse instead of Balcerzak because pretty much Kaoz. Though, I do owe it to eclipse for calling out the Ninja-discussion. I must have disorganized myself even more in my notes.

Voting eclipse in general because while I town-read her Refa debacle around #96-#99, my thoughts changed abour her in #183. The thing I picked up from #183 is actually in her last line. She claims that there's enough information out there to determine reads, yet can't throw down a vote herself. The post itself is entirely neutral, and the hypocrisy at the end just doesn't set well with me. It seems more like eclipse is more concerned with where her vote should be placed, rather than where she wants to place it if that makes sense, I can't figure out how to articulate it more clearly.

i have a little time

conq: normally i claim whatever a given fakeclaim is, if any. pretty sure in games without fakeclaims i claim something related to my own role, sooo

it's also possible for scum to fake being vanillized, on the assumption there is a scum vanillizer (which is probably a thing). basically i can go check the people who claim vanillized to actually see if they are lying or not. i know it's not terribly useful but seriously, refa is basically claiming vanilla announcer at this point so I fail to see why my role is improbable in the setup that we know of currently.

SB can do Self-meta analysis. I've been scum with you, and don't like seeing you do it.

If Refa is a Vanilla Announcer, then he's not Vanilla, and is fucking announcer, and why you're spending post upon post not considering this is distracting and pointless. Your Vanilla check (i'm assuming) would fail on him unless he loses his announcerness, which I'm guessing hasn't happened yet, since there's an announcement.

Elie: why do you have a growing scumread on Manix? Also, is the phrase "I don't like how she waved off BBM's "tryhard" efforts" relevant to your scumread on eclipse? (if so how? etc etc)

Refa: when I last heard you had a small townread on Vhaltz, and you've been scumreading eclipse for a while and Vhaltz bolstered that, and now a sudden switch to Elieson? What's up?

Something just seems off about Manix. I can't really put my finger on what though, but his burstposts just seem more...?scatterbrained? than usual. Nothing that I'm comfortable voting on, now especially, but it's just something I'm stuck telling myself "get back to that eli, there might be something there"

Re the slapfight thing? Not really. It's just something I more meant to keep as a note for later, in case I needed to backtrack to it for something

My impressions: The lot of you would've been better off lynching me than No Lynch. . .and if you can't make up your minds, do it instead. Even if I'm town, I'd rather lose my player slot than have everyone lose the game.

Wall of text, and I'm not sorry. You guys did this to yourself by posting everything right before phase end.

First, my Paper vote: Consolidation. That's it (really do you see the sentiment of "so a lynch happens"?). I wanted to see someone lynched, and SB had asked a bit before about consolidating on Paper (ISO this yourselves). I don't regret that vote, nor do I regret the responses I'm about to give, since the sense I'm getting is a combination of grasping/lack of reading comprehension (neither of which I approve of).

Vhaltz post. I was waiting for a post like this - no meta, and things pertinent to the game itself. Sad that Vhaltz had to sub out, but I'll still respond to his stuff.

Very cool of you

I can't think of a role that would specifically request a wagon that wouldn't get some sort of informational benefit off of it (unless it's something weirder than my role). 'sides, I figured that we'd be disorganized as all fuck if we had to vote a wagon and Conq at the same time. . .and lo and behold, we couldn't even get a lynch out, because the game was all over the damn place. So much for trying to get people on task. ;/

That being said, using your imagination, can you even consider anything that it could be? I've got a handful of ideas, all not worth blurting out

You keep making the inactive excuse for Kaoz, despite the fact that he had all of one post in-thread about it. Manix, at least, was trying to keep up, even if I got the sense that he was skimming. Throughout the day, I see you mention Kaoz quite a bit. This dude got my sentiment of Kaoz down pat - you, on the other hand, kept mentioning it. That's why I have the two of you linked in my notes (link still exists, BTW).

I'm mentioning Kaoz "quite a bit" because people are inquiring to my thoughts, and commenting on me not voting for the person at the bottom of my list. Pretty sure that responding to people is something that you're supposed to do, regardless of alignment even. Vhaltz, left no notes regarding his thoughts on Kaoz; I've only got his ingame posts to interpret, which are a bit of a mystery in their own rite. Also conq dedicated one sentence to Kaoz in there. Not sure how I'm linked to him in any special way, unless everyone who did things liek consolidate on paperblade are all linked in some way, due to varying degrees of conversation

Have fun answering that, Elieson.

I always have fun!

Hi Elieson~! Your notes and your vote do not match.

This is false. Balcerzak was the first person to question my ninja claim.

oops

That's why it's intown bickering in your notes, right?

I'll also bite on my notes. I reread them, and even I'm a bit confused. I just jotted down my thoughts as they came up with, and see now how they could be viewed as poorly developed. I have work to do, obviously

I really don't like Refa's and Elieson's cases against me - the former screams vibes, and the latter is poorly supported. I want a bit more out of j00, now that there's a non-meta case from Vhaltz (which I believe was a part of her scumread on him). Kaoz, I know you're reading this. . .I have X in my role PM, with X being a positive integer - this is the number of content posts I think I'll need from you to get a half-decent read on you.

I have reasons to vote for you though, despite them being organized in probably the most inefficient way possible. Those reasons include gut feeling, as well as concern for your ingame content. Other things have came up though.

As I'm miffed that the only reads I have are about people who are discussing me, and I KNOW I'm missing something, no vote right now. Should have my laundry done by tomorrow, and more time to dedicate to this.

Still concerning, and still difficult to work with. Still antitown too. A vote somewhere is doing something. A vote in your pocket applies no pressure, and generates no discussion, especially this far in.

I was reading Vhaltz as town in the end, comments on his replacement:

Both you and Vhaltz are letting him off the hook too easily, especially in the beginning of a phase you've got no reason to not press him if you find him scummy

also very eh on your comments, they're kinda a mess and you say you waffle about a lot of stuff. That tier list I posted was also part of my PR, go figure

could you clarify your BBM read? You seem to find him scummy because of the Manix-Conq-question thing waaaaay back early in D1, you still think it's big enough of a deal now?

I'd rather spend the first chunk of my time during a new day phase applying pressure to people that: I think would reply to said pressure in an effective and timely manner, and that already have things for me to address. Kaoz hadn't shown much of anything at that point so there isn't even much to seek clarity about. His "Sheep SB" thing isn't looking to good, but I'm going to look into that later.

your tier list is bad and you should feel bad. I did it better, you should tier my way or gtfo tiering Like I said, I took notes on the game and just copypasta'd them in, and except for a couple of things at the end, it was all taken before I even had subbed in.

Regarding my BBM read; that was a pretty big piece of my read on him, as I didn't view him as improving in content or quality as D1 went on. *_{see below the break line for a bit more though}*

I don't agree with this logic, as bussing exists (which means it's in scum's best interest NOT to correct such things). I didn't mind his Paper vote, as it was a case that wasn't built using meta, which is what I was looking for - it's easier to pick apart the details when a case is tied to the game in question, and not past behaviors. Buddying/distancing are also tools in everyone's kit, which is why I factored it in (now whether or not I caught all interactions is another matter).

I should go to bed soon. I'm beginning to ramble.

This, I just read and really thought it made sense.

This, on the other hand, is pure fluff.

What is it with Vhaltz's/Elieson's slot and constantly ignoring my questions?

Can you quote the questions I'm supposed to be answering? I'm at a loss here

That's just it - because everything I have is defensive, my reads are leaning towards those with cases on me (sans Strege), and that's awful play.

Your reads this far into the game are only on a couple of people (one whom has a vote on you)? I'd like to see these cases, though.

seriously

it'd be better than nothing. If you flip unexpectedly, I've got no idea what your thoughts are regarding scumreads, and if you're as town as you claim to be, give us your thoughts as they develop, as little as they may be.

---

#450 doesn't make me feel that great about SB. It feels like he's trying to make manix look bad, rather than call him out as voteworthy, especially with his WIFOM defense against Strege. This entire post feels off-putting, except the Kaoz thing. That caught my eye as well, but a seemingly blind vote by Kaoz got a surpringly defensive response out of SB. I'd like to pursue this

I'll pull up BBM later, I have a meetign to get ready for. It wasn't major though. I forgot what post it was in though

##Unvote

##Vote SB.

[Elieson]

My role should show up in the next votals.

Day 2.2 - Votals

Balcerzak (1) - ????????

Also I'm assuming this? Any particular reason why it's aimed at Balc, rather than your end day 1 vote on conquerer Manix?

[Elieson]

OK back in 2 hours

[charlie_]

How is my Strege defense using wifom? I also don't see how my Kaoz response is defensive. The Manix thing was kind of unfinished because I was just leaving.

It feels weird you went from a townie lean on me (from your notes) to scum just because of one post, instead of the four suspicions you had at the start of the phase.

[Scarlet]

Bal, what is your opinion on SB and Manix currently?

Can you quote the questions I'm supposed to be answering? I'm at a loss here

By now you've in fact answered the one I was most concerned about in your response to Conq, so yeah.

This, on the other hand, is pure fluff.

Can you explain why?

[BBM]

Manix vote was for consolidation and I also said that I didn't think his claim was a scumclaim at the end.

As for the timing, my laptop timing was apparently off from the forum/Prims's timing by a few minutes. I thought there were like 2 minutes left. Even if there were 10 seconds, what's scummy about it? Feels like you're just throwing stuff around.

Yeah the vote is mine. I can move it around unless j00 breaks the PR she got; in that case it's stuck on her for the rest of the phase.

[Kaoz]

Don't like Kaoz's prod dodge in D1 without giving reads, his inactivity is understandable but it kind of feels like he just wanted to put off contributing.

I hadn't been able to even read the thread properly when making that post and was running late as it was, so unless you think I'm lying about either of those things, I don't see your point. Do you think I am?

In the same vein, is that an actual scum read or just a side jab? If it's the former, could you explain why you feel that way?

I have/had relatively strong town reads on Scarlet, j00, and Vhaltz based on my first (maybe only) pass of the material.

Could you elaborate on why, please? Also, since you said "have" and "had", which ones of those are actually current?

@Kaoz

What about Strege's SB case do you like? Also, why would you leave rereading the person your vote is on for after other people? >_>

Honestly, I was wondering that too when I had to leave. When I started it just didn't really cross my mind that it would've been a smart thing to do and I also kind of expected to get through more than two ISOs. But yeah, it was a bit dumb not to do that first.

As for his case, the second and fifth arrows looked like interesting observations to me. Strege himself apparently thought of them as minor, but treating similar situations differently and observations involving intent tend to be rather important in my eyes.

I'm interested in why Kaoz agreed with this case more than Strege for making it though. If you hadn't actually read me, Strege could've made up a load of bs about me that wasn't true at all, so I don't see why you would put your vote down there. It feels kind of like you're just dropping down a vote to look better to me.

If I had made that post towards the end of the phase, you would be absolutely correct. However, I made it close to the beginning and didn't expect you to get turbolynched, hence plenty of time to check whether or not there was bs involved or not. Also, voting you to look better to you is ???; I reckon that if I wanted to look better to you, I would sheep you on something instead.

I find it interesting that Raymond didn't take issue with my vote at all btw, given how much he usually dislikes stuff like that. /Meta

---

In any case, I have actually reread SB now and don't feel very strongly about him at this stage. The points Strege brought up that I liked about his case haven't really stood out to me and overall I didn't feel any scum intent in his posts. In summary, I still think those arguments were interesting, but like what Manix had on BBM last phase, not worth pursuing.

One point I found worth noting in his ISO that hasn't been discussed yet is his first vote change at the end of D1, where he switched to Vhaltz before Manix. At that stage, Paper was ok with any lynch, but Refa and Conq only expressed any real interest in Manix (or eclipse), so it feels like scum!SB would've voted there straight away rather than switching to Vhaltz first? (Any other opinions on this?)

Of course Manix might be mafia and SB might have been trying to get a counter wagon going after people became less supportive of the Paperblade lynch, but since this conflicts with my town read on Manix, I don't feel it's the case right now.

Overall not happy with where my vote is any more, so

##Unvote

Gonna take a look at a few more people and be back with a new vote later.

[eclipse]

I'm here for about two minutes. Conq - dunno who you're going to shoot, but if it's me, requesting you do so in ~14 hours. That should give me enough time for one more post, hopefully one that'll have answers to the responses I see. Don't have time for a detailed response, but I did have enough time to skim and see this (SB, that's you).

- I can excuse throwing a vote down early/mid D1 without reading; doing so late D1 is sloppy (I wasn't a wagon, or I'd add dangerous to that)

- Define "filler", and why you think that

With what I skimmed from Elieson's answer, I feel better about him. As he was one of the two bones of contention after I last logged off, I can now place a vote.

##Vote: Refa

Didn't like your late D1 vote, with SB's info I like it even less, and I don't like how you hopped from me to Elieson D2 for whatever reason. Waiting for clarification from Strege, and need to read the rest of SB in-depth. The rest of this post will come after I get home from work and cook dinner (minimum 12 hours).

[Refa]

Refa: when I last heard you had a small townread on Vhaltz, and you've been scumreading eclipse for a while and Vhaltz bolstered that, and now a sudden switch to Elieson? What's up?

Actually, I was hard townreading Vhaltz after the night phase. Yeah, I know that makes the vote switch all of the more jarring but hear me out. Basically Elieson's post and his lynch priorities not only bothered me but a lot of them conflicted with Vhaltz's priorities (which you know, was part of the reason I found him townie). "But they're both the same slot, it's not like he switched alignments when Elieson subbed." you say and that is a good point. If it wasn't Vhaltz. See, the last game I played with scum!Vhaltz he was super townie and the only reason he died was because of a freak accident. Obviously I'm not going to vote him for being townie, but considering Elieson subbed in for him and is acting scummy, I can see that being the case now. The only thing bothering me is him being an insomniac, because I'm not so sure about a scum insomniac. But other than that, I feel pretty good with it.

My impressions: The lot of you would've been better off lynching me than No Lynch. . .and if you can't make up your minds, do it instead. Even if I'm town, I'd rather lose my player slot than have everyone lose the game.

How is this even relevant? You weren't even a likely candidate, it was either going to be Manix or Paperblade. Just comes across as a way to comment on the situation without giving any opinions on Manix's playerslot.

First, my Paper vote: Consolidation. That's it (really do you see the sentiment of "so a lynch happens"?). I wanted to see someone lynched, and SB had asked a bit before about consolidating on Paper (ISO this yourselves). I don't regret that vote, nor do I regret the responses I'm about to give, since the sense I'm getting is a combination of grasping/lack of reading comprehension (neither of which I approve of).

BS, if your vote was purely for consolidation than maybe you should've voted for people with more votes on them. Additionally, I didn't come across SB asking about consolidation on Paper in a cursory ISO, so either you should just quote it in some way and prove me wrong (why you wouldn't do that in this post itself is beyond me) or it never happened.

Also your responses to Paperblade are like obvious padding. Surely you could save that for postgame?

Refa is where he is for the weird logic/buddying regarding Manix and his case on CLIPSEY! D1 being really bad / using shady logic to paint her in a worse light.

How is my eclipse case bad? I agree that my ED1 suspicion based on her role was lame, but I feel like everything else has been pretty bro.

Refa whyyy. But yeah, repeating the question others have asked you about why you suddenly switched from eclipse to Elieson? It's not like Elieson's alignment has changed from Vhaltz's. Also, I reread Vhaltz's nighttime post on eclipse and which parts did you specifically agree with? I'm looking it at it again and half of it is eclipse is buddying Conq (and that is scummy) and the other half is something very specific about Kaoz's relation to Vhaltz.

Explained the switch already, responding to the point of which parts of Vhaltz's nighttime posts I agreed with. His Paperblade read for one thing, I felt the same way but didn't know how to express it myself. His eclipse case as well (I'd cite specific points, but it's like...I agree with the whole thing there) which you mentioned. Didn't know what to think about his Kaoz thing, so that didn't really factor in. Also his townreads were the same as mine.

Refa is mostly gut with how quickly he switched to Elieson over "disconnect between thoughts and lynch priority." Also, I have a feeling this is going to be due to differences in scumhunting philosophy, but where did Elieson ever say Kaoz was his top scumread? I've had a town read on the rest of his posts throughout the game though, so eh.

I don't remember ever saying that? Did I?

Refa: I'm kind of curious why you brought up an SK at the start of the phase. Did you expect one to exist or something?

Yeah, I did. This isn't because my role hints at it or anything, it's just I kind of expect SK's from Prims' games.

##Vote: Refa

Didn't like your late D1 vote, with SB's info I like it even less, and I don't like how you hopped from me to Elieson D2 for whatever reason. Waiting for clarification from Strege, and need to read the rest of SB in-depth. The rest of this post will come after I get home from work and cook dinner (minimum 12 hours).

Oh come on, this is ridiculous. You just said you didn't like my D1 vote, but then my D2 hop is bad. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Also what exactly did SB say that made you feel like placing a vote that you could have done at the beginning of the phase?

You know, I just thought of something. Considering most of the town roles seem well, kind of weak I think the existence of mafia goons is possible as well (although a lot more likely if there are 4 members which is like who knows). It'd make Manix's role actually useful. Thoughts?

Also Elieson's next post is pretty good, except for the unexpected voteswap at the end? It's just weird that he spends the whole post justifying his vote on eclipse (which is pretty good) and then votes SB after a small blurb.

Scum reads and predictable vote switch coming next post. Didn't want to put it here because it's cluttered enough as it is.

[Refa]

Balcerzak- I'm bothered by his lack of scum reads this whole game. Like, I get that he's busy and all, but in the time he took to make that post I'd expect him to have at least a cursory suspicion or two.

eclipse- Man, I'm not reiterating this. Read my last replies at eclipse, dammit.

Manix- He was a null read at the beginning of the day because I felt my D1 vote was overblown and he wasn't particularly worse than other people like Balcerzak, Kaoz, and Strege in regards to his lack of reads. Now that two of those people have done things and the other one is a scum read, I feel worse about Manix as a whole. I mean, unlike Balcerzak he does have a read, but considering he's posted a lot more than Balcerzak I'd expect more than that. He just spends a lot of time justifying his read on me but his other reads are weak and disconnected. Like yeah, I get real life and all but I raise the same point that I did with Balcerzak; he didn't even state his other suspicions until he was repeatedly prodded about it.

Elieson- His first post had a lot of suspicions that were disconnected with his lynch priority. Don't really like how he retroactively denounced them either? His next post had a pretty good justification of his eclipse vote though, although I feel like he undermined that with his SB vote which was based on a small blurb.

eclipse > Elieson > Manix > Balcerzak

##Unvote

##Vote: eclipse

Personally, I'd advocate a vig on either Manix or Balcerzak because in general I think more inactive players should be vigged because they're harder to read (well, Manix isn't inactive persay but read my complaints about his lack of suspicions). Yeah, they're my bottom two scum reads but in general I think that people who post a lot should be lynched the normal way because it provides better associative reads as a whole if they end up flipping town. Also I'd like people to state whether or not they would lynch eclipse, because 1) I feel like a lot of people are stating suspicions of eclipse without taking a definite stance and 2) Fucking Day 1 No Lynch.

Times I've had to redo this post: I

[Kaoz]

You know, I just thought of something. Considering most of the town roles seem well, kind of weak I think the existence of mafia goons is possible as well (although a lot more likely if there are 4 members which is like who knows). It'd make Manix's role actually useful. Thoughts?

- All players have at least one role-based ability.

So no goons.

Also, after thinking about it some more, the line I quoted from Bal earlier actually does bother me a fair bit, namely in that the wording makes it easy to backtrack on any of those town reads, so while he says they're strong reads, that plus the "relatively" makes them seem pretty weak in actuality. Furthermore, his line about SB feels off as well when combined with how the post ends - he was going to make a case on SB, SB didn't do anything to make him feel better and then he leaves without dropping a vote and while announcing he'd look for voting patterns rather than actually making that case on SB. I can understand the former since not everybody has the most aggressive voting style, but the latter just seems like a disconnect to me.

The eclipse comment was a bit weird as well as others have pointed out already, but a minor point in my eyes compared to the above.

Overall, I feel good about dropping a vote here for now though.

##Vote: Balcerzak

Slow with rereading Vhaltz/Elieson, but hoping to get through the slot before going to bed.

[Kaoz]

I'm getting ninja'd too often in this game.

Also I'd like people to state whether or not they would lynch eclipse, because 1) I feel like a lot of people are stating suspicions of eclipse without taking a definite stance and 2) Fucking Day 1 No Lynch.

Probably made this clear before, but no.

[j00]

Forced to post on a tablet right now so I'm not able to quote and check posts when writing this, but

@Manix: announcer is an active role, that's not what I meant at all. Like, if Conq needed 4 votes to get his shot, he'd be vanilla in all but name before that. Does your check things like that?

And my point was that your role is wifom and thus null, and that the reason I don't like you is that your content is nitpicky tunneling on Refa and defenses. If anything, if there's a scum vanillizer your role still doesn't make sense, because why the hell would vanillas not out that they'd lost their powers? Scum would know already, and vanilla checker is redundant.

Basically, your role doesn't mean anything for me regarding alignment, it's your content. You're busy at all, but you still spend the time you've got on arguing with refa and defend yourself, and those gut reads seems to be mainly on people attacking you. Got anything on anyone else?

That said, I don't like Refa's posts on this page, I'll elaborate on this next post

[j00]

Refa: Elieson and Vhaltz having entirely different reads isn't a scumtell at all, and eh, dragging Vhaltz meta into the read isn't an argument against Elieson.

Also disagree with your issues with eclipse, I'm suspicious of her too but you're nitpicking at her Paperblade vote, Vhaltz announced he was was gonna vote Paper and SB brought it as a suggestion, eclipse voting for consolidation is justified

[j00]

Kaoz confuses me, I don't find Strege's SB post clear enough that I'd sheep him without even reading SB properly myself. It feels like he placed the vote there just to have a vote on someone.

Speaking of Strege, I have a difficult time parsing his walls. More paragraphs please.

Should read his D1 again, but nothing has stood out particularly of his content so far this phase except for the SB case, which is very long but mostly (admittedly) nitpicky stuff that isn't very convincing. I don't find SB's earlier stuff like the Manix vote to be such a big deal, and I'd say he's been pretty clear about his scumreads on Raymond and Paperblade, even if he doesn't suspect them anymore.

[j00]

Nothing new to say on Balcerzak, agree with the consensus here. saying he was tunneling eclipse was weird and he didn't have any proper scumreads or a vote. Not opposed to a vig shot on him, but I'd prefer if he posted again.

[Scarlet]

I find it interesting that Raymond didn't take issue with my vote at all btw, given how much he usually dislikes stuff like that. /Meta

I have to admit that somehow went past me, though I'm not sure what to make of you pointing this out yourself.

BS, if your vote was purely for consolidation than maybe you should've voted for people with more votes on them. Additionally, I didn't come across SB asking about consolidation on Paper in a cursory ISO, so either you should just quote it in some way and prove me wrong (why you wouldn't do that in this post itself is beyond me) or it never happened.

He did, actually.

How is my eclipse case bad? I agree that my ED1 suspicion based on her role was lame, but I feel like everything else has been pretty bro.

A lot of it has been built on the consolidation vote after that, which I don't think is justified, simply because SB asked her to and she literally wasn't around after she made that vote. Considering the direction things were going in at that point, she had no reason to believe the Paperblade lynch wouldn't happen.

Pretty much the only other reasons for your eclipse vote that I can gather are in your #268, which I don't think are "bad" per se but I still don't agree with.

Also I'd like people to state whether or not they would lynch eclipse, because 1) I feel like a lot of people are stating suspicions of eclipse without taking a definite stance and 2) Fucking Day 1 No Lynch.

I would most definitely not lynch her today.

##Unvote

##SayHiTo: Refa

I still very much dislike Manix, but it just doesn't seem like the Manix case is going anywhere, and considering how little he has done other than defend himself up to this point, I feel like the lynch is better-placed elsewhere right now.

Would, however, switch my vote back if necessary for the lynch to go through.

Would also still lynch SB.