Yume Nikki Mafia - Day 3

[Mitsuki]

I'm angry at Shin because he's doing absolutely nothing to prevent his lynch altough he appears (or at least appeared) to be checking the thread quite often. I've been waiting for him to do something all the afternoon/night so far to see if his calm attitude was due to him giving up as scum or him being town but now I feel like I need to make a decision and I won't be able to factor in this reasoning.

##Unvote

I've read Shin's ISO over and over and I've also tried to form some idea of Shin's meta in my head. Discarding that his posting style is very different from the usual (being passive overall), which is not alignment indicative: What I saw in Semi-Precious Mafia, where he was scum, was that he tried to throw dirt at other players when he had the opportunity while giving an alternative on how it could come from town as well. He would say stuff like "This has two explanations: the most likely, which is town, and the other, which is so scummy". He's definitely not doing that this game and he's being consistent with his reads.

In I-don't-remember-which-game, where he was town, he also seemed more sarcastic than in Semi-Precious, altough not as much as in this game.

##Vote: Scarlet

This is my strongest read now. I know not many people are voting him right now, but I don't recall anybody giving up their suspicion, just them finding other people scummier. I think this is still a viable lynch.

I have to add that I compared his town and scum recent games to his play this game and I feel like his play is more similar to his scum play. His play this game and the other two games is very different though, so it's hard to compare.

On Refa's wagon, I don't see what's so scummy about him. There's also the fact that Eclipse's vote was really bad; as Refa already pointed out, he was replying to stuff, not filling an irrelevant post to seem active. I think this was quite obvious but I don't know how to interpret what Eclipse did, and I'll think about it in the future.

I'm going to sleep soon, please tell me now if you have some stuff for me to answer.

[charlie_]

Well, SB, maybe other people know what kind of claims are scum claims and town claims, but I don't. I get people have said stuff on it but I can't go and sheep it if I know scum can claim vanilla as well.

Also I don't get why I should bring up so much more content after ISOing people, I already tried to pay attention to the thread when I was reading it for the first time. And it's usually really hard for me to find scummy stuff, specially D1. I've actually had a great D1 in regards to content compared to P3 and MLP:FiM mafia.

Generally I would've expected at least for you to state your reads after you've announced you've done something like that, even if they came out mostly similar. Also you didn't get any gut feeling or anything when Shin claimed at all?

[charlie_]

oh wow i missed that refa responded

[Mitsuki]

A small summary of my case on Scarlet (full case here): he unvotes his RVS vote without having a new person to vote, he places his vote on Poly and keeps it for a long time while not having much reasoning on him other than some "contradictions", and he shows a lack of commitment towards his case. He's also shown what I interpret as scum concern.

@SB: No, I didn't. Also I hate saying "I still think x and x are scum and I'm null on everybody else". It makes me feel dumb.

I should probably say that I claimed vanilla on my only scum game.

[Shin]

I'm angry at Shin because he's doing absolutely nothing to prevent his lynch altough he appears (or at least appeared) to be checking the thread quite often. I've been waiting for him to do something all the afternoon/night so far to see if his calm attitude was due to him giving up as scum or him being town but now I feel like I need to make a decision and I won't be able to factor in this reasoning.

I like to think I've been trying to make my case for a while, I'm too British for town to lose this early on! I was also kinda downstairs helping a friend do a presentation, so I've kinda been on this page for like a couple of hours! I don't really have much else to say otherwise.

SB, scorri's kinda... well not existed. Her last post shows she's at least followed the general jist of the game, but I'm not feeling any real commitment to anything happening. It's not like she's scummy, but more like a spectator looking in. None of the points are terrible, but either due to being busy or some other force, scorri doesn't feel entirely like part of this game.

[Shin]

I'm off to bed now, the chances are I'll miss phase end, mostly because it's like 6am my time and I love sleep. Long live the Shin!

[Eurykins]

Phew, finally home and able to post more, yay!

Eury, the reason why BBM changed his read on me was that the only reason he mentioned I could be scum was my lack of content, and I posted content a few minutes before he posted his post.

That's the thing though- all he said was, "Oh, got cut, nevermind- disregard what I said about Mitsuki." He never said anything with regards to WHAT you posted, nor did he say how that affected his read on you. Did he find your content more of a town read or scum read? He's been extremely vague with regards of several reads/thoughts throughout the game, and I'm having some issues with that coming from him (someone I know to be a veteran player).

Anyways, gonna get the rest of my reads up in a bit.

[charlie_]

Probably because it's a response to the cases on me. Shin's last post was a vanilla claim, which really doesn't mean much to me. I'm vanilla too, does that make me obvious town? In NOCers Manix claimed some lame ass role that was "unlikely to be scum" too, and guess what alignment he flipped as?

The townie part of Shin's claim is the context behind it, not the claim itself.

Name the last game where Poly was this inactive as town on D1. How have I not been scumhunting at all?

Hard NOCs, and iirc he was inactive in early Fakeclaim. Plus irl is a thing.

Looking through your post RVS posts:

-This is arguably minor scumhunting, but you don't vote.

-This post has a bit more but the vote looks like it could've been made in the last post and there are a couple of "it looks forced" comments without attempting to explain WHY it's forced. (He also mentions BBM here as slightly suspicious but never follows up on it.

-In this post he goes from finding Eury slightly suspicious to blatantly sheeping her vote, and the most that he brings to the case is "he has a lot of scumreads and I don't know who's the scummiest" which isn't really that strong.

-His next post is also a blatant sheep, this time of Shin who was a growing wagon at the time, which is interesting.

Skipping through in depth stuff on the next few posts but basically he says Poly/Randa/Shin are his main suspicions, he hasn't added much to his Poly or Randa suspicions since he unvoted them, which makes it feel like he doesn't really believe in them too strongly. Poly is understandable due to lack of posts but Randa's had posts and you haven't even seemed to try to put much effort into analysing them from the get-go considering your suspicion itself has only came from Eury's case.

I'm out, gl with phase end.

[BBM]

@Eury- My issue with Mitsuki was that she literally just had the one content post and then she had another post so I didn't really see the need to explain why I took back my statement.

MEHHH Refa's tone in the last few posts sounds frustrated but idk if it's like frustrated scum at a case they perceive to be bad or frustrated town. Also vanilla claim bleh.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Raymond

Nothing can go wrong with a turbowagon on someone who's not around to claim. This vote is half due to me preferring this over the other two options atm, and half because I agree with what Mitsuki said about Raymond just parking on Poly. It feels like other than that he has one post on Randa, another on Shinori, and then a lot of filller. Plus there was that stuff at the beginning but that's minor atm.

I keep going back and forth between which of Raymond and Refa I want to lynch. ;_;

Also Poly's only been scum a few times, and he wasn't inactive in Manix's Unnamed game as scum so.

[Mitsuki]

Shin, you've done stuff, I just expected way more. But why are you replying to me instead of trying to avoid your lynch/bringing up more stuff to lynch scum, and also that quickly after my post.

Yes, quite possibly; for instance if they struggle to come up with a way to word their cases convincingly.

I don't even agree that stuff is a contradiction to be honest but let's say it is: Is one contradiction enough to keep suspecting Poly for so long? I get that there were three contradictions on your initial case, but one was a mistake, as you said, and one was a question which I still don't see as a contradiction. It feels like you were pretending your case was much stronger than it actually was, and it's also scummy to suspect someone on so little for so long.

They're not? You're putting words into my mouth.

What I meant is: instead of wanting your case understood when someone raises some questioning about it, you just accept it and don't care about changing the situation. You've said that you'll only clarify if asked, which is scummy because town would actually care for their reads by themselves, not only about being questioned by other people. It's clear that you don't care about them.

I don't think anybody implied they didn't understand my case, so I was working under the assumption that they simply disagreed with it. How this has anything to do with a lack of "commitment" is beyond me.

But they clearly said that your reads weren't well explained. It's even in what you quote. This just proves you're making stuff up.

Also, what I said earlier.

If I appear "unaffected", people will apparently see scum intent in it for "trying to hide worry".

But I've also made the experience that people will jump onto players that show panic when under pressure, for the exact opposite reason - for getting worried about a wagon on them.

It's a lose-lose situation, and may be telling about a player's personality, but not their alignment. You're starting to grasp a bit too far.

It's not a lose-lose situation, definitely, and I'm not talking about your personality either. I've already stated and explained that your concern (being affected but trying to seem unaffected) seemed like scum concern. Town can be concerned but it'd be different. Also both town and scum can panic.

I pointed out that Scarlet's replies seemed neutral, but now that I've actually elaborated on them this all it feels scummy. This is definitely the lynch I want.

Last post for today, it's already too late and I haven't even checked which classes I have to attend to tomorrow.

[Prims]

Day 1.6 - Votals

Polydeuces (4) - scorri, Scarlet, Kay, Bluedoom

Refa (4) - Sangyul, Shin, eclipse, SB

Scarlet (3) - Randa, Mitsuki, BBM

Shin (3) - Elieson, Shinori, Refa

Elieson (1) - Polydeuces

Randa (1) - Eurykins

Not Voting (0): None!

You have 5 hours and 33 minutes left in the day. With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

[Shinori]

The choices for lynch suck because we have 5 hours and I think poly won't be here and I think Scarlet said they won't be here which means lynching either one of them means no claim. But if shin's not getting lynched I think I'd prefer Scarlet personally.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Scarlet

Eury whom would you prefer to lynch?

[Refa]

I'd still rather lynch Shin, but if that's not an option, then Polydeuces. Would prefer not to lynch Scarlet, because I was townreading him...

SB, scorri's kinda... well not existed. Her last post shows she's at least followed the general jist of the game, but I'm not feeling any real commitment to anything happening. It's not like she's scummy, but more like a spectator looking in. None of the points are terrible, but either due to being busy or some other force, scorri doesn't feel entirely like part of this game.

OK, this is what I was talking about, SB. Shin has a legitimate reason to consider scorri scummy FHPOV, but for whatever reason she simply drops to a null read. I mean, it's not necessarily scummy in and of itself, but it contrasts heavily with his behavior regarding Elieson where he didn't have any doubts about instantly labeling him as scum (despite people telling him otherwise); this isn't the first time he's done it, too. Also another thing that's been bothering me is that all of Shin's scumreads are on people who have been voting him; not really how I'd expect a townie to act.

Skipping through in depth stuff on the next few posts but basically he says Poly/Randa/Shin are his main suspicions, he hasn't added much to his Poly or Randa suspicions since he unvoted them, which makes it feel like he doesn't really believe in them too strongly. Poly is understandable due to lack of posts but Randa's had posts and you haven't even seemed to try to put much effort into analysing them from the get-go considering your suspicion itself has only came from Eury's case.

Randa hasn't done much since then besides a few one liners, there wasn't exactly a goldmine of content to respond too. He's still my second strongest scumread.

I keep going back and forth between which of Raymond and Refa I want to lynch. ;_;

Also Poly's only been scum a few times, and he wasn't inactive in Manix's Unnamed game as scum so.

Can you elaborate on Raymond because I genuinely don't understand the case on him at all.

Pretty sure he was inactive?

[Prims]

Randa has been prodded.

[Sunwoo]

Probably because I'm not. Even if I get lynched/night killed/what have you, I can still win, and I put a lot of effort into the last game only to get screwed over at the end, so I'm not nearly as inclined to put forth a bunch of effort this time around.

This is not a good reason. In Schoolteacher mafia, I put in as much effort as I could being a limited post hydra and was really into the game. My other half walked into an argument and a reaction test wrong (both of which I told him not to do) and we got lynched on D1 with all minus two of the votes on our wagon being town. I was mad as fuck, but that doesn't mean I decided that putting in too much effort and caring was not worth it in the next game.

Yes, but considering my scumread on Shin is on the following post I can't really blame you for not knowing. Also Polydeuces, not specifically because he's inactive or his previous content was bad (I thought it was perfectly fine myself), but because he tends to lurk hard as scum; not really much to say on that front, though. Nope. No, if I thought Shinori was scummy I would have said so when I mentioned him. I think his long delayed super post was fine and I don't really get the issues people have with it.

Your scum reads are coming one at a time and you focus on like one person at a time in your reads as well. You're making responses at Eury and the others but I don't know if you think she's town, or null, or whatever. I can't tell how your thoughts change over time because your posts feel very disconnected to the previous one, not really addressing the person you last voted or why this new person you're voting is scummier than them each time, and I'll need to check back to see if this is true but each of your votes are pretty much on the "most recent person to start collecting votes".

What. If you're referring to Elieson vs Shin, that wasn't even a thing when I unvoted Elieson like seriously. I also mentioned specifically why Shin was a null read, so I don't even get what your issue is. I'm townreading SB, what is there to mention? Like this whole read is basically looking at my content in a vacuum without taking context into consideration.

Wrong. At the time of your post where you voted Marth, Elieson vs Shin was starting to become a thing. And by the time you made your vote on Randa on page 7, enough of it had happened so that you should've had some semblance of an opinion on Shin. But on that second post, the only thing you mention about Shin is that "I'm not fully defending a null read". Was that really ALL that there was to say about him, considering that he and Elieson had made enough of a fuss? As for "what is there to mention", SB was a pretty significant part of that Elieson-Shin thing around the time you made your posts. If he's a town read, you don't think it's worth mentioning what you think of his role in the whole thing?

BBM's Marth vote is kind of weird. I'm not a fan of his reasoning for unvoting Shin because "I don't like lynching vanilla claims", but Paper always argues that people who claim vanilla as a lynch wagon aren't scum, so while I don't agree with this type of logic I can see why other people do. But the vote on Marth bugs me because he was pursuing Scarlet before Shin, but suddenly Marth is a lot worse when it comes to unvote Shin? Marth, whom he barely pursued after early D1? I'm feeling a little bit worse about him over that Marth logic.

Uh, no, I know you responded to the post overall but I was saying that you didn't clarify what I was supposed to be overstating when I asked.

And I'm pretty sure that I told you to go back and read my original vote because I explained it there.

Your original vote on Poly looked like you were just determined to paint it in the absolute worst light possible because it had some problems with it. I don't like how to slam his read on Marth, saying it "looks non-committal" and "was dancing around giving one". YOU asked him for a read on a person he didn't have a solid opinion on, and he answered. No duh, it's going to look non-committal. People can't form a solid opinion of someone they're not sure of on demand simply because someone asked them for one. Asking Kay "why only one line" doesn't look like it's throwing suspicion on her, it looks like he's asking her why that's all she had to say at the time. And that "Shin and Poly" for scum buddies in page four is still awful because four pages into the game is an awful time to make any serious assumptions about scum buddies. Even if you both find them scummy and find their interactions interesting, it's hardly worth an entire "scum buddy" angle that early.

As for Poly himself: DO SOMETHING. I can understand being busy and I can see from your content that you weren't posting on SF after a certain time, but there's a lot of stuff in the game and a lot of it's about you, so I'm interested in seeing what you think now and getting an actual read on you besides null.

I need to go eat or something, be back later.

[Sunwoo]

MOTHER OF FUCK

Uh, no, I know you responded to the post overall but I was saying that you didn't clarify what I was supposed to be overstating when I asked.

And I'm pretty sure that I told you to go back and read my original vote because I explained it there.

Your original vote on Poly looked like you were just determined to paint it in the absolute worst light possible because it had some problems with it. I don't like how to slam his read on Marth, saying it "looks non-committal" and "was dancing around giving one". YOU asked him for a read on a person he didn't have a solid opinion on, and he answered. No duh, it's going to look non-committal. People can't form a solid opinion of someone they're not sure of on demand simply because someone asked them for one. Asking Kay "why only one line" doesn't look like it's throwing suspicion on her, it looks like he's asking her why that's all she had to say at the time. And that "Shin and Poly" for scum buddies in page four is still awful because four pages into the game is an awful time to make any serious assumptions about scum buddies. Even if you both find them scummy and find their interactions interesting, it's hardly worth an entire "scum buddy" angle that early.

As for Poly himself: DO SOMETHING. I can understand being busy and I can see from your content that you weren't posting on SF after a certain time, but there's a lot of stuff in the game and a lot of it's about you, so I'm interested in seeing what you think now and getting an actual read on you besides null.

I need to go eat or something, be back later.

FIXED

[Eurykins]

Thoughts/Reads:

Bearclaw/Eclipse:

- Bearclaw didn't exist at all. Awesome. /sarcasm. (Said that he'd catch up and then poofs on us anyways without saying a single word. K)

- WRT this post:

~ (Regarding questioning my post) - I agreed with Refa wrt Shin's self-vote defeating the purpose (or otherwise being useless) in RVS, but explained why I wasn't bothered a massive amount by Shin's actions/first post of the game. I also explained to Refa my mindset of where I was viewing him in terms of plausible scum vibes (similar to that of SFMM4) because of the way he was starting to use the whole "Meta this, meta that" logic in some of his cases/comments (and explaining how the meta usage- though not by nature scummy in itself, can seem/be scummy). And then elaborating in how I felt that Refa had been trying to sweep Shin's actions/posting under the rug, so to speak, and otherwise seemed to half-defend Shin while trying to remain as a neutral/distant party (to avoid the buddying aspect).

~ I find the logic/comments reasonable in terms of the cases linked.

~ Only thing I'm slightly musing over is the vote priority and the vote on Randa:

1. Why could a case/lynch on Shinori/Refa not occur when we still had a good chunk of ours before the deadline later tonight? Yes, Randa's wagon seems much more prominent atm, but there's also a case or two on Refa currently (unless I'm mistaken), though I could see the issue wrt Shinori lynch not occurring.

2. Why is Randa, who's openly done things that look pretty bad, less scummy than Refa/Shinori, whom are dodging the... er, "elephants" (as you called 'em)? And do you find Refa's dodging means (by involving himself in Boron/SB) potentially worse or lesser than Shinori's playing style?

3. What do you make of BBM's more recent posts? (He's had his own share of posts, so I'm not sure if you bypassed him purely due to lack of post count or meaningful content, or something else.) Seems odd to group him Poly/Scorri when I figure he's been more active than they've been.

- I can see the logic (and can somewhat agree with it) wrt Refa/Refa vote.

- Overall: Bearclaw derped and fell off the face of the planet. Null in itself. Eclipse put up a half-decent wall, and, from what was posted so far, I don't have much to argue with or object to (aside from the questions I already posted above for her to answer). Null leaning townish for now.

Bluedoom/Marth:

- Graspy, even for ED1.

- Lolwat?

- Somehow don't really see the case/logic here.

- When don't scum have plausible fakes (according to mods)? Also, wrt Poly vote; it wasn't the STRONGEST on Elie, but, given Poly's vote, I actually see more posting/content aimed more towards Elie/issues with Elie than with you (Marth). So I'm not sure if your claim/complaint/vote against Poly here is fully justified, imo.

- WRT this post:

~ "However my scumread on you is not so strong as it should be since I feel if you were scum you would've just voteparked me and found more reasons to vote me instead of switching to SB."

1. How much of a scumread do you expect to read from someone? (Moreover, do you think someone who's scum would let themselves be read as drop-dead obvious scummy to begin with?) You also seem as though you expected it to be stronger or something, which I find really strange.

~ Not sure I agree with the Boron comment.

- I think the comments wrt Elie/Marth interactions here seems weird. That, and his blurb on Kay seems a bit lazy, as he doesn't elaborate in what part of the "detailed explanation" paints her in a townie light for him.

- Hey, at least my gut reads in Shining Force were accurate, thanks. Lol And then I got screwed by tailor/doubted my gut read on BB. GG me.

- Already covered this post.

- Though I felt inclined to maybe agree in inducing Shin claim (due to the votes), I'm kinda wary of this post and its notion/prompt for Poly AND Raymond to likewise claim. Just how much information are you wanting to feed to scum D1 unnecessarily, yo? :/

- Uhhhhhhhh....what was this a response to?

- Overall: Eh... I don't agree with a lot of the logic/cases he presented/pushed for, and I'm not exactly thrilled with his gameplay as a whole. Leaning scum.

Elieson:

- THE REACTION TEST WE ALL GREW TO LOVE AND ADORE THIS GAME! (notreally)

- Not sure I fully agree with the logic here wrt Marth's reaction not being something that scum would have done. Not saying his reaction to your test itself painted him as town or scum, but this kinda sounds like BBM logics of "I don't think scum would've done X, so in that case, Y is probably town".

- WRT this post:

~ (Even in prior posts) Dis tunnel/sights stuck on Shin. [Though one could say vice versa in Shin tunneling Elie.]

~ "Shinori has so many scumreads". So what? Does that make him scummy? Townie? What does your comment/point even matter?

~ You put of re-reading Randa at the end, and stuck him (and me) at the end of your scumread list? Why?

- Though I personally didn't like Shin's reactions/posts much myself, I don't altogether agree with Elie's logic here, (and prior) that a "one-liner" shouldn't prompt/cause a detailed response. Why couldn't it? Asking a simple question can lead to a complex/detailed answer, if the person chooses to give one or if the one asking it prompts for one.

- Overall: I don't believe the reaction test told much. However, you've spent the majority of D1 aimed at Shin, and you've provided little insight on the rest of the people in the game (You blurb in one post about Mitsuki, Shin, Shinori, and myself, but all of these notions pale in detail and attention to your obvious Shin tunneling). I'm leaning more towards scum as a result, because you seem almost unnaturally stuck on Shin and as a result, seem very narrow-sighted and your priorities of scum-hunting are not where they should be. (I understand that you've been talking back and forth with Shin, but townies should know when/how to respond while also scum hunting and looking elsewhere.)

Kay:

- I can see these as fair points.

- Overall fair points.

- WRT this post:

~ Being the starter of a wagon that leads to a mislynch doesn't necessarily make the instigator scum- if the one who got mislynched was honestly playing badly or otherwise seemed scummy in the eyes of other townies (and a townie was one who just so happened to pick up on it first and make it noticed to the rest of the players), then I'm pretty sure it'd be reasonable by any PoV (IE. Knot's mislynch in SF3). Quite frankly, I'd find more issues with those who are on a wagon but don't seem committed to said vote/lynch and try to distance themselves from it. So I'm not quite sure how Mitsuki's quick change makes her out as more "Pro-town" than "scum".

~ What made "Marth's recent posts" (at that time) seem more try-hard townie than grasping scum?

- Somehow, I don't like this post.

~ "This Raymond wagon is dumb. Don't agree with Mitsuki or Boron, but eh, they've both made an actual case based on recent stuff." So, what are your thoughts on it then? What makes the wagon seem so dumb if they have fair cases on Raymond's more recent posts?

~ "aaargh Polydeuces needs to post something or I'll kill him irl" Why choose to blargh about Poly here and not regarding other inactives? (prior case against him or something else?)

- Overall: Though I disagree with a few points mentioned above, overall I don't see Kay as a priority for D1. Nullish, and would not lynch.

Mitsuki:

(Skipping ahead past the posts/stuff I already answered in prior posts)

- Question regarding this Scarlet Vote: Why do you say "I think my vote will be more useful here"? Why does voting Scarlet over Shin feel that way to you?

- WRT this post:

~ What about Scarlet's posts/responses made them seem not-so-scummy?

~ You still think Scarlet's scum, but you're willing to keep him around? Seems kinda counter-productive.

- WRT this post:

~ There's something about the Shin -> Scarlet vote change that bothers me.

1. You're basing the vote change on: Meta (claiming that he's not mudslinging,etc) and saying that he's remaining consistent (well, yeah.. he's been mainly tunneling ELIESON, so it's kinda hard NOT to be consistent with that). Dunno, I'm not sure I buy into that logic much.

2. Vote on Scarlet reflects on, again, more meta game reading. You even admit that "it's hard to compare.", and yet he's wound up as your highest scum read regardless?

- This post bothers me due to one line:

~ "I should probably say that I claimed vanilla on my only scum game." Really? What prompted the need to say this? I'm getting the feeling that, if you're scum (and Shin [who claimed vanilla] is town), you're attempting to paint his Vanilla claim in the worst light possible by offering your own notion/use of said vanilla claim.

- WRT this post:

~ "Shin, you've done stuff, I just expected way more. But why are you replying to me instead of trying to avoid your lynch/bringing up more stuff to lynch scum"

Somehow, the bolded notion rubs me the wrong way. He claimed Vanilla already and has been posting back and forth with people/replying (which is to be expected when comments are directed AT HIM), and IGNORING people would come off as being scummy as well. So with how much you (Mitsuki) have been posting towards him, why are you criticizing him about responding to you (when you'd probably end up ragging on him for NOT responding to your points/questions if he chose to ignore you)? In addition, he claimed, and though I don't really care for his content, my other point is this: Townies shouldn't be concerned with self-preservation. Surviving should not be your top priority over scum hunting or anything of the sort (granted, cops, docs, etc. should be careful, but if it comes down to "My life for scum kill", the choice should be obvious.) as town, and it bothers me slightly that you seem to making a deal about him not self-preserving himself (as one would probably expect scum (as opposed to town) to do.

- Overall: I'd be lying if I said I wasn't bothered by Mitsuki's gameplay, as my concerns/questions are listed above. However, I'm keeping her at "null leaning scum", and thus at lower priority, as there are bigger fish to fry this day phase.

Poly/Randa Cases have not changed at all in my eyes, and so remain where they stood in my priority list.

ARGH, running out of time. Putting out this post, and going to dig through Scarlet/Shin in a quick post to pull up a finalized priority for end-of-phase vote.

[Scarlet]

wth?

I'm here and will be around all the way until phase end, let me catch up.

[Eurykins]

[spoiler=Scarlet]- WRT this post:

~ WTF Poly Vote? (Aside from srs case reasons, "I have no idea what the current votals are, so for the time being:")

~ Uh, tacking on SB at the end of your priority list? (I'm not even sure why you have him there PERIOD, honestly). Even if it's literally at the end (implying a townish read), seems unnecessary.

~ Really vague read on Marth, and not really saying much aside from "He needs to be more proactive".

- The response here seems more like an excuse than anything for not explaining your reads or otherwise solidifying your reads. Sure, townies can make weak cases, but it's definitely not encouraged nor should it be done.

- WRT this post:

~ "Scum is more likely to contradict themselves than town because in my experience, they tend to have a hard time keeping track of what they're even attacking certain people for since they have to make most of it up."

- This is not altogether true. Scum can easily make a case on things that are not made up, but based on poor gameplay that townies themselves make. Some can be misreps in order to make them look bad, sure, but town is just as likely to run into snags in terms of logic, I feel. In addition, scum is often more likely to be careful in their posts, as to avoid making obvious/unnecessary errors that would lead a trail back to themselves. All in all, I'd say townies, more often than not, tend to have more scattered/inconsistent gameplay than scum do, which can make it easier for scum to lead mislynches if/when townies either play horribly or just don't pay attention to details that scum exploit (or a mixture of both).

~ "He seems more like misguided town to me." How so?

~ "He also didn't ask me to actually expound on my cases, so I didn't. Holding this against me seems unfair, as people would likely call me overeager instead if I tried really hard to justify my case when there was no demand to do so, and rightfully so."

1. You shouldn't need to be ASKED to explain cases you have. If you have a case you feel is worth mentioning, you say it with as much detail/content as needed to be understood by all.

2. Your concern that "Oh, I may be seen as overeager and such" just rubs off to me as you being self-conscious of your appearance and gameplay. Which is scum concern, not town.

~ "I also don't get how "being concerned" about a vote on you is a bad thing, let alone scummy. If you're town, you'll want to try and dissuade people from voting you because it'd be a mislynch and thus against your wincon."

1. Wincon for town is to eliminate all hostiles/threats to town. Nowhere in it does it entail you specifically to HAVE to be ALIVE to achieve it (only assumes the need for at least 1 townie to be alive in order for town to have a chance at the wincon).

2. A true townie will do anything and everything it takes to find and hunt down scum. Even if it entails them dying. Surviving never takes priority over scum hunting, nor should it be a main concern/posting content for them. Even if a townie is under fire/under the threat of a mislynch, the rest of their time is better spent drawing out the cases they believe have merit, because as far as everyone else knows/figures (those who wish to lynch said person), that townie's scum. The fact that a mislynch happens (which is bound to happen in any/if not all games) means that their cases will have more merit (so long as the support/reason behind them is reasonable) and will provide town more food for thought to the following day phase.

- The last paragraph here ("If I appear "unaffected"....") stinks of self-conscious scum.

- While I agree that letting out more info than needed is bad, in this case, I don't fully agree with you not claiming at this point.

- So, in a game of 16 people, you have 2 scumreads, on two inactives. You see/find NO scum intent/reads on ANYONE else in the game? I find that hard to believe.

- In other words, these aren't fully reliable sources to use anyways, because of the lack of gameplay/consistency in either regards, played as town or scum. Gotcha.

- Overall: Yeah, I can see myself supporting a lynch here. Scum until proven clean.

[spoiler=Shin]- Already commented on this post- weak vote, bad Poly logic, etc.

- Kinda derpy post, imo.

=== (Skipping over more of the mindless/useless posts) ===

- Less than desirable Mitsuki vote, and less memorable Mitsuki case and more blurbs on Elie shizz.

- This post sounds kinda bad; first two lines were kinda obnoxious to read, moar Elie blurb to SB, and moar Mitsuki shizz.

- Elie this.

- Elie that.

- Dat Redirect towards Randa, and towards post count. GG

- Complaining to SB for defending Elie.

- Wtf Refa vote? (and ice cream claim, yo)

- No elaboration on Poly, Randa, or anyone else.

- Why mention Scorri n' whatnot? Redirect much? (again)

- Overall: I sense a boner for Elie at this point coming from Shin. Aside from that, less than desirable gameplay, and I think, if he is ice cream, he's the stuff that gets dropped on the ground during the summertime and left to melt.

Man. At this point, it's pretty damn hard to say who's the worse offender. Scarlet I have vast issues with wrt the content/gameplay, but Shin's kinda... doing nothing but hump Elie all day and night. ;/

Overall Priority list:

Scarlet = Shin > Poly = Randa (former highest reads until this post) > Marth = Elieson = Mitsuki.

First two I'd happily lynch. Second two I'd consolidate. Last three only if (for some reason) the first four don't go on the chopping block. Would leave everyone else alone.

[Eurykins]

*Forgot to stick BBM at the end near Mitsuki. But whatev's- first four are my top concerns for D1.

[Prims]

Day 1.7 - Votals

Polydeuces (4) - scorri, Scarlet, Kay, Bluedoom

Refa (4) - Sangyul, Shin, eclipse, SB

Scarlet (4) - Randa, Mitsuki, BBM, Shinori

Shin (2) - Elieson, Refa

Elieson (1) - Polydeuces

Randa (1) - Eurykins

Not Voting (0): None!

You have 4 hours left in the day. With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

[Sunwoo]

Um, wow, these votals.

I'm having a hard time focusing right now. I'll be present at deadline and up until then but I can't promise that I'll have anything to add unless something happens. Of the people who are the most viable wagons, I'd rather not lynch Scarlet today and I'd prefer not to lynch Poly without more content from him.

[Scarlet]

A small summary of my case on Scarlet (full case here): he unvotes his RVS vote without having a new person to vote, he places his vote on Poly and keeps it for a long time while not having much reasoning on him other than some "contradictions", and he shows a lack of commitment towards his case. He's also shown what I interpret as scum concern.

This vote is half due to me preferring this over the other two options atm, and half because I agree with what Mitsuki said about Raymond just parking on Poly. It feels like other than that he has one post on Randa, another on Shinori, and then a lot of filller. Plus there was that stuff at the beginning but that's minor atm.

I don't even agree that stuff is a contradiction to be honest but let's say it is: Is one contradiction enough to keep suspecting Poly for so long? I get that there were three contradictions on your initial case, but one was a mistake, as you said, and one was a question which I still don't see as a contradiction. It feels like you were pretending your case was much stronger than it actually was, and it's also scummy to suspect someone on so little for so long.

Okay, let me spell this out once more, because apparently either half the players in this game are blind, or scum doesn't know when to stop:

Poly hasn't made a single game post since I voted him!

If I find someone scummy, I'm gonna vote them, regardless of whether they have the dignity to actually bother responding or not, especially if I also asked them questions I wanted them to respond to! If going inactive meant that you couldn't be voted for, lurkscum would be guaranteed to win every single mafia game.

It's not a lose-lose situation, definitely, and I'm not talking about your personality either. I've already stated and explained that your concern (being affected but trying to seem unaffected) seemed like scum concern. Town can be concerned but it'd be different. Also both town and scum can panic.

And I've already stated why that is garbage.

I didn't know what to think of Mitsuki before, but her reasoning in these more recent posts has become really shitty. Adamantly clinging to arguments that have been debunked is bad, as is considering someone scummy because their scumread went inactive after the vote was made.

But if shin's not getting lynched I think I'd prefer Scarlet personally.

Absolutely no acknowledgement of my latest responses to you?

I asked you something, too. A response would be very nice.

~ Uh, tacking on SB at the end of your priority list? (I'm not even sure why you have him there PERIOD, honestly). Even if it's literally at the end (implying a townish read), seems unnecessary.

Why is it unnecessary?

~ "He seems more like misguided town to me." How so?

Because I saw no scum intent in his replies to me. His logic was consistent and he attacked me over points that are admittedly there.

1. Wincon for town is to eliminate all hostiles/threats to town. Nowhere in it does it entail you specifically to HAVE to be ALIVE to achieve it (only assumes the need for at least 1 townie to be alive in order for town to have a chance at the wincon).

And a mislynch does nothing to eliminate any threats to the town.

2. A true townie will do anything and everything it takes to find and hunt down scum. Even if it entails them dying. Surviving never takes priority over scum hunting, nor should it be a main concern/posting content for them. Even if a townie is under fire/under the threat of a mislynch, the rest of their time is better spent drawing out the cases they believe have merit, because as far as everyone else knows/figures (those who wish to lynch said person), that townie's scum. The fact that a mislynch happens (which is bound to happen in any/if not all games) means that their cases will have more merit (so long as the support/reason behind them is reasonable) and will provide town more food for thought to the following day phase.

So what if the cases I believe to have merit happen to be on people who are voting me? Scum are gonna vote for townies when they're not busy bussing each other, and from my PoV I know that I'm town. Maybe that's just me, but I'm more likely to catch on to something that concerns me than to something that concerns someone that is a complete null read to me, and most of the cases on me this phase are pretty shitty.

I can win even when I'm dead, but that does not mean that I shouldn't put in effort into surviving. I'll repeat it:

A mislynch does nothing to eliminate any threats to the town.

- The last paragraph here ("If I appear "unaffected"....") stinks of self-conscious scum.

So any theoryslinging is an automatic scumtell now?

- So, in a game of 16 people, you have 2 scumreads, on two inactives. You see/find NO scum intent/reads on ANYONE else in the game? I find that hard to believe.

What's so hard to believe about it if like half the game is inactive to varying degrees?

- In other words, these aren't fully reliable sources to use anyways, because of the lack of gameplay/consistency in either regards, played as town or scum. Gotcha.

Yes.

[Scarlet]

##Unvote

##Vote: Shinori

You're online to respond.

[BBM]

I think everybody should post a priority of how they want to lynch among Poly, Refa, Shin, and Raymond to see who's the most valid consolidation at the moment.

For me it's Raymond > Refa > Shin > Poly at the moment.