FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[dondon151]

Points that have either not been addressed or inadequately countered:

1. Farina will not be getting levels in chapter 25 if she joins on turn 5/6 and optimal completion is turn 7/8.

2. Farina needs to level up from base and cannot even double monks from range.

3. Even if Farina gets 0-4 levels in chapter 25, her durability is still functionally the same on chapter 26. Poor durability does not cater to killing enemies.

4. Losing the potential 800 EXP obtained from leveling Farina up to 20/0 is easily made up by giving 50 EXP to each unpromoted member in the rotation.

5. Tactics can be exchanged for EXP. The converse is not true.

Here's the problem: Farina enters the map on turn 5 and might not be recruited until turn 6. You could have had Heath, Florina, or Fiora clear the entire east side by now. In fact, that is probably what happens, otherwise you'd be losing out on 20k in funds from the Elysian Whip village getting destroyed (or you could lose that 20k flat out by, you know, using Farina). Also, chapter 25 is a 0 requirement chapter. Depending on how much EXP the cavaliers are giving you, you might just want to clear that map as quickly as possible after killing Pascal. I was able to complete this map without Farina even showing up.

So you know what that means: no 17/0 Farina by 26, no Farina not getting 3RKO'd by the weakest WKs in the map, and no Farina resembling anything like a good unit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQaVFYNBlRg

In that video, I finish chapter 25 in 3 turns, without Farina even showing. I know the immediate counter to this will be "but EXP rank," but even when you consider that aspect, Farina does not contribute towards completion of that chapter. The cavalier and monk reinforcements are activated on turn 2, and will continue through turn 7 (they will provide the bulk of the EXP on that chapter, in addition to Pascal/bosses). Turn 8 will be the ideal time to complete the chapter. Farina enters the map on turn 5 and, since the NPC phase happens after the player and enemy phases, she does not come under player control until at least turn 6. We'll assume that the player is not using Hector to help with the cavalier swarm near the top of the map and is positioned in the south just so he can recruit Farina on turn 6 instead of turn 7 or 8 (what a great use of Hector). It then will take Farina at least 2 turns to approach the northeast fortress where the monks are spawning, so she makes it to that area at the end of turn 7 player phase. Under the most optimal conditions for Farina, she will have 2 player phases and 1 enemy phase to gain EXP. That is not enough for her to escape being 2RKO'd by Steel Lance WKs next chapter.

Farina costs 20k G, non Silver Carded, which is 40k G equivalent. I don't advocate promoting 2 Assassins for 32x either, because that's just simply not reasonable.

I pull up my final chapter save, which currently has 5 stars in funds with 9 promoted units (Priscilla, Raven, Serra, Kent, Sain, Heath, Fiora, Lucius, Erk) plus promoted Eliwood (Lyn is unpromoted). Farina is also unrecruited. If I spend 40k G worth of items (i.e. I use a Heaven Seal plus an Earth Seal), my funds rank drops to 4 stars. If Farina costs 50k G to use (40k to recruit and 10k to promote), she prevents the promotion of 1 unit on this team. If Lyn is promoted, that's 3 units on this team that Farina competes with. The only stat boosting item that I've used on this playthrough are the Boots (on Hector), and the only gem that I've sold is the one obtained in chapter 11. The S-rank weapons obtained in Endgame have a total worth of 150k G, which is coincidentally exactly the amount required for that chapter, so a 20% leeway on that is only 30k G. Farina evidently does put a strain on your funds - she prevents the promotion of other units, she prevents you from selling gems pre-Silver Card for extra money, and she prevents you from being liberal with stat boosters (so no Body Ring for Isadora, Speedwings for Marcus, for example). This also invalidates the "use 100k G on your assassins" strategy for 32x, plus is competes with Dart's use after promotion, since his item costs 50k G. It also competes with, for example, Oswin's and Lowen's promotions, since there are only 2 Knight Crests, so either of them needs an Earth Seal to promote.

Inui can go ahead with his 20k G allowance theory, but I value this example more, because it far more concrete than estimations being thrown around, and this post seems to have been ignored.

Edited February 18, 2010 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

^ That post surely contributed positively to FE 7 tier list discussion, was on topic, and clearly had no intentions to instigate me or continue the flaming/trolling that has been going on.

...

Aside from my post being longer, how is it different from RF's? Hers follows all of your implicit statement here. Even the last bit is arguable since she states she won't take you seriously. So, why does she get "your loss" and I get sarcasm?

Besides, I am asking a question about what you find acceptable in the quote tags and what you don't. It's up to you how you want to read the part where I asked if you'd throw a hissy fit. I never explicitly stated that any of your past actions could be described in such a way. You haven't answered, by the way, so I figure that as long as I don't call you "horio" or "two years tennis experience", you won't report it. If you do, it's not my fault since I asked what is okay. You are the one that chooses to respond to an honest inquiry with sarcasm rather than content.

The rest of it? I ask Mori to tell me something, but I ask for it to be PM'd. I suppose I could ask her via PMing, but I was already posting in this topic and she is clearly checking it. I ask her to PM me so that whatever epicness she typed isn't displayed here to cause you to have to report another post.

Further down, I tell RF what I think the prospects are of you persisting in your current attitude (high). The fact you don't even acknowledge her concerns and instead indicate she is missing out as a result of her decision just goes to prove my point.

Parallel to another person that was hostile (in our opinion) at first when she came on here and is no longer hostile is actually meant to help you. Drop the hostility and we might be nice to you. I think Mori is great now.

And the last part there is to let you know that since we aren't reporting your trolling, but you are reporting what we are doing, which of us is more accommodating?

If you choose not to take any of this into consideration and look at it instead as an attempt to make you more annoyed, that says something about the prospect of you changing.

The last sentence was me just whining that I can no longer use an accurate description of your personality when talking to you. It makes me sad. :(

(and Mori, come on. Please tell me!

And are you serious? Because telling us that unranked is utterly pointless and a joke and everything else you said there is just going to get us riled, even if you meant it as a joke like you later said)

Edited February 18, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Crysta]

You could probably afford to stop all the ass-kissing and name-dropping, to be honest. I don't think they're particularly fond of it, and it doesn't really matter what x says about your argument anyway. X can still be wrong.

And post parts of the FEFF debates instead of linking them, maybe.

That aside, though, I can't really see anything outright offensive... unless you consider annoying = offensive.

[Tangerine]

I think Mori is great now.

You are making me a happy camper !

(and Mori, come on. Please tell me!)

I didn't actually save it, unfortunately. It was pretty awesome though.

And are you serious? Because telling us that unranked is utterly pointless and a joke and everything else you said there is just going to get us riled, even if you meant it as a joke like you later said)

Excuse me but this is very offensive despite the fact that I am superior to you in every way. Also Jaffar7 and LifeAdmiral are superior to you and they told me that I was as well so they are my friends. Also they are not from this site originally, granting them innate superiority in general.

[Narga_Rocks]

I didn't actually save it, unfortunately. It was pretty awesome though.

I don't doubt that at all.

Excuse me but this is very offensive despite the fact that I am superior to you in every way. Also Jaffar7 and LifeAdmiral are superior to you and they told me that I was as well so they are my friends. Also they are not from this site originally, granting them innate superiority in general.

I bow to your superiority. I mean, hey, if Life Admiral and Jaffar say so, what can I do?

[Tangerine]

I bow to your superiority. I mean, hey, if Life Admiral and Jaffar say so, what can I do?

Exactly. It's like 2 vs 1, except they're more like 4 and you're more like 0. But don't get me wrong, I don't mean it as an insult, I'm just being friendly.

[Inui]

That was a cool vid, dondon. I don't know if missing out on that much EXP is good (I certainly don't want to), but it was a really fast completion for sure. I guess I can't really say anything about Farina if she shouldn't even exist, lol.

About the Funds thing, does that take Silver Card abuse into account? Someone made a post saying the 20k allowance exists without it, and there were facts backing that up, and that was without the Silver Card coming into play.

Narga, you will refer to me as Inui.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Inui

[Narga_Rocks]

Narga, you will refer to me as .

I hope you realize that if you report me for leaving the name blank they'll probably laugh at you. Well, and be rather annoyed at you for reporting effectively (and literally) nothing. Up to you, though.

Oh, does this count as something you are wrong about? You are using the word "will", after all. In order to avoid being wrong, I suggest phrases like: "please refer to me as...". You also might be interested to note that politeness rather than commands works better on many people.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

At the moment I am trying to crunch numbers, but for some reason I get less gold than what is required for the rank in C25 (374,440). dondon is a bit better addressing that.

I have no real issue rising Isadora. I think you're overstating my elitism. Even so, look at the units that she is above. Athos is partially the reason why Final is easy (auto-Equip Luna, Forblaze, and Staff utility). Granted it's only one chapter, so you could see her above him. Hawkeye... hm...

Hawkeye - 50 HP | 18 Str | 14 Skl | 11 Spd | 13 Luck | 14 Def | 10 Res

Killer Axe - 29 Atk, 11 AS, 99 Hit, 35 Avoid, 50 HP, 14 Def, 10 Res

Hand Axe - 25 Atk

--/3 Isadora (which is probably too high) - 29.5 HP | 13.6 Str | 12.7 Skl | 17 Spd | 10.9 Luck | 8.4 Def | 6.5 Res

Killer Lance - 23.6 Atk, 14 AS, 39 Avoid, 29.5 HP, 8.4 Def, 6.5 Res

Javelin - 19.6 Atk, 12 AS, 35 Avoid

I'm not going to assume Genesis, but assume Linus's chapter. Mercenaries have a max of 26 Avoid. Seems like a win for Isadora. Pirates (or Corsairs)... hmm... they do 9 damage tops on Hawkeye. With Isadora she has 54 Avoid with WTA against the Iron Axe Corsair's 89 Hit. Not much to say about that. Even their AS is pretty good. Only the Steel Axe, Hammer, and some of the Hand Axe Pirates are doubled by Hawkeye. Hawkeye does miss out on the Wyvern Riders that wield Iron Lance; however, Isadora needs a critical to connect in order to KO them. With Hawkweye he just about ORKOes them with a Killer Axe. The Hand Axe obviously can't KO. For Crit procs, Isadora has 36 Crit to Hawkeye's 52. Hawkeye, even if he marginally missed the KO, has the critical to back him up.

So taking a quick glance at Chpater 25... not much changes. Someone flying Hawkeye out East can pick on Monks, but that's about it. C26 is where Vaida enters the scene and it's Wyvern Knights galore. I don't have the stats on me, but I'm assuming with the Wyvern Plague Hawkeye wins. She also seems to lose in durability often against him.

It seems like Movement and WTC vs. Durability and crit %ages. Well, I didn't think Hawkeye would stand that long anyhow. Keep in mind her offense is pretty much about the same, if not worse in situations where Hawkeye is doubling.

[Inui]

I hope you realize that if you report me for leaving the name blank they'll probably laugh at you. Well, and be rather annoyed at you for reporting effectively (and literally) nothing. Up to you, though.

Oh, does this count as something you are wrong about? You are using the word "will", after all. In order to avoid being wrong, I suggest phrases like: "please refer to me as...". You also might be interested to note that politeness rather than commands works better on many people.

A blank is fine.

Politeness? When I receive nothing but trolling/flaming despite remaining civil the entire time? I will be more polite when I'm not getting ganged up on by a bunch of people despite being mostly right, lol.

@Colonel M: I noticed you're using your signature to brag about you trolling/flaming me, lol. That's pretty mature of you. Should I puts links in my signature where I countered both of those posts and proved you wrong in everything you said? Nah, I'm an adult. No need. Everyone that read the exchange with an unbiased viewpoint knows who won.

Anyways, back to FE...

I'd also say Hawkeye is better than Isadora. I actually use Hawkeye pretty much every time I play, while I don't do the same with Isadora. It's pretty much movement, WTC, and Spd vs huge HP and Crit. Hawkeye wins durability by a lot and is really awesome when he joins. What unit has durability like 50 HP/14 Def/11 Res? That's insane for Chapter 23.

Edit: I'd put him above Dart. He pretty much always beats Dart in durability and is so much better for Funds it's not even funny.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Inui

[Tino]

You guys are taking this to PMs or IMs from now. No more discussing of this publicly on the forums.

So just tier-list based discussion from here on. Thanks.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Tino

[grandjackal]

While it may be a minor point in Karel's favor, wouldn't his amped up crit help the Funds rank further due to crit kills saving uses on killer weapons/wo dao/whatever?

Think about it like this. With that Wo Dao, it has 20 uses. At base, he has 61 crit with it. If it were to ORKO on 2 shots, it would mean that out of those 20 uses, only 10 would be dead. With a 60% idea in mind (or more, since that's 61 displayed, could be more like 75%), it would be 12 kills rather than.

Brings me to the Brave Sword. It is essentially 15 kils with it's 30 uses without crit in hand and both are meant to avoid counters (Wo Dao with a crit, Brave Sword with the brave effect). It's similar, and while you could say it's more effective (Brave Sword chances of missing>Wo Dao chances of not landing a crit), the Brave Sword is also 1800 more expensive.

Granted you could probably just toss the Brave Sword to guy to increase the killcount on the brave sword by 35% (or more if Matthew is around I suppose), but that's the weapon itself while Karel's benefits come from himself. Once Harken loses his sword, he's just another combat unit, but Karel through his extra crit is still capable of saving you money through weapon uses saved.

Has to be the most minor point on earth, but I just thought I'd try to provoke some thoughts.

...And perhaps try to get Karel out of Low into Lower Mid, though yeah it's only the bottom of it.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Colonel M]

I threw Dart down over Rath. I'll try to figure out where he goes later. Jaffar is probably okay in Low Mid, but I think it could still be re-evaluated. Bartre probably still needs to rise, so I'll put him in bottom of Low Mid for now. I also just noticed this:

Sain

Kent

Erk

Lowen

First off, there shouldn't be a difference between the Cavs. They should just be next to each other. Secondly, I think Lowen has a good case to be put over Sain and Kent. The biggest key factor with Lowen is that he can recieve more enemy exposure on the field.

First off, let's look about when they join. If we're using Lowen seriously, he's probably ~Level 10 if we aren't doing rotation.

Lowen - 30.2 HP | 9.4 Str | 7.4 Skl | 9.4 Spd | 7 Luck | 10.2 Def | 2.4 Res

Sain - 26.2 HP | 13.4 Str | 7.15 Skl | 9.6 Spd | 7.15 Luck | 7.8 Def | 1.8 Res

Kent - 27.65 HP | 9.6 Str | 10.5 Skl | 11.05 Spd | 3.8 Luck | 7.25 Def | 3.25 Res

I'm going to copy -> pasta Enemy Stats, and what I'm going to bold is the Spd stat. Pay attention to this:

2x Archer lv 3 (Steel Bow)

16 atk, 82 hit, 2-3 AS; 4-6 avo

1x Archer lv 4 (Short Bow)

12 atk, 97 hit, 6 AS, 13 crit; 24 HP, 4 def, 1 res, 12 avo

1x Archer lv 6 (Iron Bow)

14 atk, 99 hit, 6 AS; 12 avo

6x Archer lv 7 (Iron Bow)

13-14 atk, 99-101 hit, 6-7 AS, 3-4 crit; 25-26 HP, 4-5 def, 1-2 res, 12-14 avo

1x Archer lv 8 (Steel Bow)

17 atk, 88 hit, 6 AS, 4 crit; 26-27 HP, 5 def, 2-3 res, 12 avo

1x Cavalier lv 5 (Steel Sword)

1x Cavalier lv 7 (Steel Lance)

19 atk, 84 hit, 5 AS, 3 crit; 28 HP, 8 def, 2 res, 10 avo

1x Fighter lv 4 (Hammer)

1x Knight lv 4 (Iron Lance)

16 atk, 90 hit

1x Knight lv 4 (Javelin)

13 atk, 73 hit

1x Knight lv 5 (Steel Lance)

19 atk, 78 hit, 1-2 AS, 2 crit; 23-24 HP, 12-13 def, 2 res, 2-4 avo

1x Knight lv 5 (Javelin)

14 atk, 73 hit

1x Knight lv 7 (Iron Lance)

16 atk, 92 hit, 1 AS, 3 crit; 26 HP, 11 def, 1 res, 2 avo

1x Knight lv 10 (Javelin)

16 atk, 75 hit, 3 AS, 2 crit; 27 HP, 13 def, 3 res, 6 avo

1x Mage lv 10 (Thunder)

18 atk, 94 hit, 7 AS, 8 crit; 24 HP, 3 def, 8 res, 14 avo

1x Mercenary lv 6 (Iron Sword)

12 atk, 116 hit, 12 €AS, 6 crit; 27 HP, 5 def, 2 res, 24 avo

1x Myrmidon lv 6 (Iron Sword)

13 atk, 116 hit, 14 AS, 6 crit; 23 HP, 3 def, 2 res, 28 avo

1x Nomad lv 6 (Iron Bow)

13 atk, 101 hit, 10 AS, 4 crit; 23 HP, 4 def, 1 res, 20 avo

2x Nomad lv 8 (Iron Bow)

14 atk, 101-103 hit, 11 AS, 4 crit; 24 HP, 5-6 def, 2 res, 22 avo

1x Shaman lv 10 (Flux)

17 atk, 92 hit, 6 AS, 3 crit; 23 HP, 4 def, 8 res, 12 avo

1x Bernard lv 1 (Steel Axe/Javelin)

26/21 atk, 86 hit, 3 AS, 5 crit; 33 HP, 14+2 def, 11+2 res, 8+20 avo

Reinforcements

Turn 4

1x Thief lv 8 (Iron Sword)

9 atk, 104 hit, 14 AS, 3 crit; 21 HP, 2 def, 2 res, 28 avo

Turn 5

1x Thief lv 10 (Iron Sword)

9 atk, 104 hit, 14 AS, 3 crit; 24 HP, 4 def, 3 res, 28 avo

Turn 7

1x Cavalier lv 5 (Iron Lance)

15-16 atk, 90-92 hit, 7 AS; 14 avo

1x Nomad lv 5 (Iorn Bow)

14-15 atk, 97-101 hit, 8-9 AS, 3 crit; 22 HP, 5-6 def, 1 res, 16-18 avo

Turn 8, 9, 10

1x Archer lv 8 (Iron Bow)

14-15 atk, 101 hit, 6-7 AS; 12-14 avo

1x Cavalier lv 5 (Iron Lance)

1x Nomad lv 5 (Iorn Bow)

Turn 11, 12

1x Archer lv 8 (Iron Bow)

Kent can double 9 of the Archers that are on the map (I'm not counting reinforcements). He can also double the Mage and Shaman, but not at two range. Now looking at the Myrmidion you would think Kent has a durability lead over Lowen, correct? Nope, with WTA Lowen takes 4 damage while Kent takes 5. Meanwhile, most enemies are doing about 0-9 damage to Lowen. Lowen takes 9 tops from the Cavaliers. Take those same 19 Atk Cavaliers vs. Kent and you'll notice he takes 12. The difference? Lowen is 4RKOed while Kent is 3RKOed. Take a weaker enemy... about 15 Attack is probably the average (too lazy to calc this but I see a lot of them around here). Lowen takes 6 rounds to die while Kent takes 4. It only improves more and more as the enemy attack goes down.

Now glancing at where they all double. Well it isn't much, so let's just use the Cavalier as an example: 28 HP | 8 Def. So we have 16, 17, and 20 Attack from Lowen, Kent, and Sain, respectively. Lowen kills him in two rounds guaranteed. He does 8 damage per hit. Kent does 9 and kills him in the same # of rounds. Sain does 12 damage per hit and can kill him in 3, but it's still a 2RKO. So the major difference is Sain's higher damage output against these two, but in terms of #RKO they tie. Now let's use the Archer: 24 HP | 4 Def. Pretty scrawny fellas. Lowen kills in 2 hits, so nothing major. But, keep in mind that Kent kills more of these, so he pulls the offensive lead here. Finally the big and bad Armor Knights: 23-24 HP | 12-13 Def. We'll give them Steel Lances, but we'll round up Sain's Spd as otherwise he'd become borderline (he loses 4 AS and you need 5-6 AS to double the vast majority of them). Lowen does 12 damage per round minimum, Kent does 14, and Sain does 20. Sain comes eerily close to ORKOing, but he still fails at it.

So pretty much offensively they're all about even, but Kent pulls a small lead with doubling a few more enemies. Defensively, I don't think I need to re-iterate how Lowen is winning.

I could probably do more of the comparison later, but to be quite honest they should just be next to each other. Whether Sain or Lowen wins is another day, but for now I'm closing that gap.

[Life]

Just so you guys know, I'm currently doing a HHM run where I'm determining the amount of maximum Funds you can get in this game (including every side chapter) plus getting enemy stats for myself.

I want to put this whole Farina/Dart/Thief promotion thing to bed one way or another and find out the exact amount of money that's spendable in this game. Not a round figure but an actual number. I think we can then place Farina, Dart and Legault accordingly on the tier list (assuming that we only use 1 Fell Contract and it's on Legault). Should I put my final data here or make a new topic for it, like the enemy stats?

EDIT: Also, I'm going to dispute Lowen > Erk. Here's a couple of choice quotes about that issue. Just so you know, I dug back to early November to get them. ;)

In your early game comparison, Erk has enough AS to double a few things Lowen can't. Lowen also has trouble one rounding most enemies where Erk does not. Erk can also counter and one-round at 1-2 range and Lowen doesn't have the one range offense to make up for it.

Late game, Erk promotes earlier, gets Staves which allows him to draw EXP from a different pool and has the better offense. Erk will win offense no matter what you do for Lowen outside of giving him the Uber Spear.

You left out Erk's assured Priscilla support too; Lowen is much less likely to get his supports.

You can also buy some fire tomes in False Friends anyway. Even though thunder is default, Erk can squeeze out some extra AS thanks to the weight difference, which allows him to double even more than than Lowen does.

You've already noted that Res is generally lower than def. It makes quite a difference when Lowen can't kill armor and Erk can, and from distance as well. Lowen is supposed to dominate the early game and compared to Erk, he doesn't. 3 chapters of availability doesn't make up for Erk's game long offensive lead at 1-2 range. The move advantage is lessened by Erk's ability to one round much more consistently than Lowen does.

The def lead is pretty large in Lowen's, but Erk's res lead is also pretty amazing. As the game goes along monks come in higher population, meaning that Erk's going to be MTA against a lot of enemies, which boosts his effectiveness against magic units. I'd also argue that things that Lowen NEEDS the (insert effective/killer weapon here) for are enemies Erk has little trouble with due to their low res. Effective/killer weapons are more expensive and have less uses. You can't get a decent supply until ch24 either.

Erk's def supports help close the gap between him and Lowen. Given that slow supports with a fail archer can't offer Lowen any AS, it doesn't matter what Lowen's supports are, he won't be even close to Erk offensively.

I'd argue is that Erk's lead isn't diminishing just because Lowen has higher move. Lowen fails to one round many things that Erk and many other units do anyway. Erk's also got much higher hit rate than Lowen by far. If Lowen had lower move then he would lose levels on Erk. Thankfully, he has higher move so he remains nuetral at best.

Again as Mori mentioned, the ability for Erk to use staffs is pretty major. It wipes out much of Lowen's utility advantage. As far as the weapon triangle goes, no matter what weapon Lowen uses he always loses to something. If he's holding a lance he's bad against axes, ect. Erk is nuetral with the physical triangle, meaning he never goes WTD against anything. Erk's advantage in this is a more effective defensive phase since he doesn't have to worry about what physical units hold. Weapon triangle control means nothing in a debate involving a magic unit really.

What about the Magic Triangle? Lowen never goes negative against them.

The only thing that Erk goes negative against is shamans/druids. Shamans/Druids aren't much of a threat. Erk can still kill shamans and druids pretty easily too thanks to how awesome anima tomes are. Erk doesn't have any problem hitting them with his great hit rate even in MTD.

Just like with the cavaliers debate, offense > defense outside of the first few chapters and a few FoW chapters.

It's also worth mentioning that while Guiding Rings have a high amount of competition, Erk has enough of a level lead to easily claim either the second or third one. Knight crests are a problem for Lowen. His diminishing usefulness hurts his chances at promotion. Oswin, Kent, and Sain also need KC's. All three of these units have better late-games than Lowen does.

Oswin outclasses Lowen on offense AND defense, Sain passes Lowen's offense by an amazing amount, Kent's offense >>> Lowen's. Kent and Sain still have enough defense to be frontlined with ease.

There are 2 free knight's crests. Additionals come in 31's secret shop. Sain, Kent, or Oswin are going to use up the two freebies and an earth seal. Lowen either has to wait until chapter 28 to get an earth seal or until 31's secret shop. Erk doesn't have this problem. 4 guiding rings and a level lead means you can safely promote him without stepping on Prissy or Serra's toes.

Not to mention that if Erk misses out on beating Serra to 20/0 for the first Guiding Ring, he's assured the second one as Prissy won't be at 20/0 by then and Anima > Light when it comes to talking about Lucius.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Colonel M]

Make a new topic for it.

Have fun sailing the 7 seas in your 5 Star HHM Run Cap'n.

[Life]

Make a new topic for it.

Have fun sailing the 7 seas in your 5 Star HHM Run Cap'n.

Oh my first S Rank run in over a year. Still not happening. I'm doing this run plus I have 2 draft runs to get through (I'm stuck on Chapter 13 because Matt likes taking axes to the face when he's in a forest). I'll try to get to that in about a month and a half though... After exams are done.

[The Divine Swordmaster]

If Farina cannot exist in a ranked run wouldn't that make her bottom tier? perhaps below Karla? Or at least below Renault, At least he heals and gives us Fortiy. Thats worth more that costing mney to exist and 10k to even promote

[dondon151]

Farina can exist and cost a lot and put a strain on funds. It's not difficult to work around.

[Life]

If Farina cannot exist in a ranked run wouldn't that make her bottom tier? perhaps below Karla? Or at least below Renault, At least he heals and gives us Fortiy. Thats worth more that costing mney to exist and 10k to even promote

It's not that she can't. It's that she probably won't.

If Farina was free (and if pigs could fly as there is ALWAYS someone in Fire Emblem who costs money, the ungrateful bastard...), she'd probably be middle tier for her flying ability. She's not exactly an Est as she's not horribly underleveled and has actual decent bases. The only real problems would be her probably not promoting thanks to Florina or Fiora (both have a major level advantage on their sister) and late joining time (only 10 chapters left in the game).

Her cost problems are what really pull her down. But like I said, the purpose of my run is to determine how much exactly is she allowed to slide with that problem.

EDIT: What was the enemy stat calculation again? Like to figure out what the enemies stats are.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[dondon151]

EDIT: Also, I'm going to dispute Lowen > Erk. Here's a couple of choice quotes about that issue. Just so you know, I dug back to early November to get them. ;)

I don't see any numbers in there, just generalizations that don't really show anything. Here is a snapshot of Erk and Lowen on Pirate Ship:

12/0 Lowen @ Javelin: 32 HP, 16 atk, 11 def, 3 res

12/0 Erk @ Fire: 24.15 HP, 17.4 atk, 4.2 def, 8.4 res

8/0 mercenary @ Steel Sword: 27 HP, 16 atk, 6 def, 2 res

4/0 shaman @ Flux: 19 HP, 14 atk, 2 def, 6 res

6/0 shaman @ Nosferatu: 21 HP, 16 atk, 4 def, 8 res

4/0 archer @ Steel Bow: 23 HP, 16 atk, 4 def, 1 res

6/0 peg knight @ Steel Lance: 21 HP, 18 atk, 4 def, 6 res

I won't bother writing down the actual AS values for anyone; Lowen and Erk both double every enemy but the mercs.

Anyway, Lowen is 8RKO'd by mercs and 3RKO them back. Erk is narrowly 2RKO'd but has slightly better offense, scoring a 2RKO back. Erk wins durability against the shamans, or at least the Flux ones, who 4RKO him and 3RKO Lowen, but the Nosferatu ones 3RKO both. Erk also does not ORKO Nosferatu shamans whereas Lowen does. Both of them ORKO the archer and the PK, but Erk is narrowly 2RKO'd by the archer and 2RKO'd by a decent margin by the PK. Lowen is 7RKO'd by the former and 5RKO'd by the latter.

Now, Pirate Ship is a defensive map, so Lowen's advantages are particularly highlighted there. But even on an offensive map, Lowen has the innate advantage of mount + 2 move.

Edited February 18, 2010 by dondon151

[Life]

I don't see any numbers in there, just generalizations that don't really show anything. Here is a snapshot of Erk and Lowen on Pirate Ship:

12/0 Lowen @ Javelin: 32 HP, 16 atk, 11 def, 3 res

12/0 Erk @ Fire: 24.15 HP, 17.4 atk, 4.2 def, 8.4 res

8/0 mercenary @ Steel Sword: 27 HP, 16 atk, 6 def, 2 res

4/0 shaman @ Flux: 19 HP, 14 atk, 2 def, 6 res

6/0 shaman @ Nosferatu: 21 HP, 16 atk, 4 def, 8 res

4/0 archer @ Steel Bow: 23 HP, 16 atk, 4 def, 1 res

6/0 peg knight @ Steel Lance: 21 HP, 18 atk, 4 def, 6 res

I won't bother writing down the actual AS values for anyone; Lowen and Erk both double every enemy but the mercs.

Anyway, Lowen is 8RKO'd by mercs and 3RKO them back. Erk is narrowly 2RKO'd but has slightly better offense, scoring a 2RKO back. Erk wins durability against the shamans, or at least the Flux ones, who 4RKO him and 3RKO Lowen, but the Nosferatu ones 3RKO both. Erk also does not ORKO Nosferatu shamans whereas Lowen does. Both of them ORKO the archer and the PK, but Erk is narrowly 2RKO'd by the archer and 2RKO'd by a decent margin by the PK. Lowen is 7RKO'd by the former and 5RKO'd by the latter.

Now, Pirate Ship is a defensive map, so Lowen's advantages are particularly highlighted there. But even on an offensive map, Lowen has the innate advantage of mount + 2 move.

I'd pull numbers out... If I had. I'm only on Chapter 13 of this run so yeah... I don't have any. Not to mention that the enemy stat topic here is missing Chapter 19.

I'll get back to you when I get some enemy stats of my own. That ok, Don?

[Colonel M]

Mekkah has savestates if you want to see enemy stats. Of course it's FoW, so keep in mind it isn't that easy to record (odd how C21s was though).

Well, I think the video can't really stop us from recruiting her. I'd like to see if its entirely possible. IIRC you need over 340,000 Gold to continue S Ranking Funds. Keep in mind that Chapter 23 has a massive climb in the ranks (111,000 just for that chapter). I should've used a bit better way to explain why I was nervous on raising Farina, but I'm not going to lower her just yet either. Either way, the video that dondon presented and how her contributions to the EXP Rank can be seen as minimal at best due to 32X. 32X and the Silver Card don't make the ranks a complete "joke", IMO. However, realize it's very easy to put a penalty on Farina because it still deducts liquid gold for funds rank. Another analogy you can think of is you can promote 2 units freely instead of recruiting Farina.

While your analogy may look like funds rank is a joke, keep in mind that's through the entire game in general, not from beginning -> C25. Are we a bit more clear on this now?

[Inui]

While it may be a minor point in Karel's favor, wouldn't his amped up crit help the Funds rank further due to crit kills saving uses on killer weapons/wo dao/whatever?

Think about it like this. With that Wo Dao, it has 20 uses. At base, he has 61 crit with it. If it were to ORKO on 2 shots, it would mean that out of those 20 uses, only 10 would be dead. With a 60% idea in mind (or more, since that's 61 displayed, could be more like 75%), it would be 12 kills rather than.

Brings me to the Brave Sword. It is essentially 15 kils with it's 30 uses without crit in hand and both are meant to avoid counters (Wo Dao with a crit, Brave Sword with the brave effect). It's similar, and while you could say it's more effective (Brave Sword chances of missing>Wo Dao chances of not landing a crit), the Brave Sword is also 1800 more expensive.

Granted you could probably just toss the Brave Sword to guy to increase the killcount on the brave sword by 35% (or more if Matthew is around I suppose), but that's the weapon itself while Karel's benefits come from himself. Once Harken loses his sword, he's just another combat unit, but Karel through his extra crit is still capable of saving you money through weapon uses saved.

Has to be the most minor point on earth, but I just thought I'd try to provoke some thoughts.

...And perhaps try to get Karel out of Low into Lower Mid, though yeah it's only the bottom of it.

Crit doesn't use double RNs.

Brave Sword = not taking counters before killing something + lets units like Harken/Lowen/etc. double Valks and other speedy shit. That > Crit.

I threw Dart down over Rath. I'll try to figure out where he goes later. Jaffar is probably okay in Low Mid, but I think it could still be re-evaluated. Bartre probably still needs to rise, so I'll put him in bottom of Low Mid for now.

That's all sensible. If you guys have the "OMG 50K RAPES FUNDS!" thing still in your heads, then Dart indeed needs to drop down despite having the best possible offense in the game.

I also just noticed this:

First off, there shouldn't be a difference between the Cavs. They should just be next to each other. Secondly, I think Lowen has a good case to be put over Sain and Kent. The biggest key factor with Lowen is that he can recieve more enemy exposure on the field.

First off, let's look about when they join. If we're using Lowen seriously, he's probably ~Level 10 if we aren't doing rotation.

Lowen - 30.2 HP | 9.4 Str | 7.4 Skl | 9.4 Spd | 7 Luck | 10.2 Def | 2.4 Res

Sain - 26.2 HP | 13.4 Str | 7.15 Skl | 9.6 Spd | 7.15 Luck | 7.8 Def | 1.8 Res

Kent - 27.65 HP | 9.6 Str | 10.5 Skl | 11.05 Spd | 3.8 Luck | 7.25 Def | 3.25 Res

I'm going to copy -> pasta Enemy Stats, and what I'm going to bold is the Spd stat. Pay attention to this:

Kent can double 9 of the Archers that are on the map (I'm not counting reinforcements). He can also double the Mage and Shaman, but not at two range. Now looking at the Myrmidion you would think Kent has a durability lead over Lowen, correct? Nope, with WTA Lowen takes 4 damage while Kent takes 5. Meanwhile, most enemies are doing about 0-9 damage to Lowen. Lowen takes 9 tops from the Cavaliers. Take those same 19 Atk Cavaliers vs. Kent and you'll notice he takes 12. The difference? Lowen is 4RKOed while Kent is 3RKOed. Take a weaker enemy... about 15 Attack is probably the average (too lazy to calc this but I see a lot of them around here). Lowen takes 6 rounds to die while Kent takes 4. It only improves more and more as the enemy attack goes down.

Now glancing at where they all double. Well it isn't much, so let's just use the Cavalier as an example: 28 HP | 8 Def. So we have 16, 17, and 20 Attack from Lowen, Kent, and Sain, respectively. Lowen kills him in two rounds guaranteed. He does 8 damage per hit. Kent does 9 and kills him in the same # of rounds. Sain does 12 damage per hit and can kill him in 3, but it's still a 2RKO. So the major difference is Sain's higher damage output against these two, but in terms of #RKO they tie. Now let's use the Archer: 24 HP | 4 Def. Pretty scrawny fellas. Lowen kills in 2 hits, so nothing major. But, keep in mind that Kent kills more of these, so he pulls the offensive lead here. Finally the big and bad Armor Knights: 23-24 HP | 12-13 Def. We'll give them Steel Lances, but we'll round up Sain's Spd as otherwise he'd become borderline (he loses 4 AS and you need 5-6 AS to double the vast majority of them). Lowen does 12 damage per round minimum, Kent does 14, and Sain does 20. Sain comes eerily close to ORKOing, but he still fails at it.

So pretty much offensively they're all about even, but Kent pulls a small lead with doubling a few more enemies. Defensively, I don't think I need to re-iterate how Lowen is winning.

I could probably do more of the comparison later, but to be quite honest they should just be next to each other. Whether Sain or Lowen wins is another day, but for now I'm closing that gap.

The entire problem is that you're comparing earlygame only. They start off very similar, but Sain and Kent have much higher total offensive growths (135 vs lol90 to be exact), which gives them very substantial offensive leads post-promotion. I don't think I need to go into great detail here about it, but common sense and just playing the game will tell you that Lowen could easily be unable to one-round Crazed Beast Cavaliers, doesn't one-round the Wyverns/Mercs of Four-Fanged Offense, can't one-round Valks/Heroes/Swordmasters/Generals ever, etc. Sain and Kent ORKO almost everything once their offense gets going.

Observe a comparison at around Kinship's Bond, all at 18/0:

Sain: 18.2 Str, 9.95 Skl, 12.8 Spd --- 32.6 HP, 9.4 Def, 3.4 Res, 35.5 Evd

Kent: 12.8 Str, 14.5 Skl, 14.65 Spd --- 34.45 HP, 9.25 Def, 5.25 Res, 34.7 Evd

A support: +3 Atk, +7 Hit, +7 Crit, +1 Def/Res, +7 Evd, +15 Crit Evd

Lowen: 11.8 Str, 9.8 Skl, 11.8 Spd --- 37.4 HP, 13.4 Def, 4.8 Res, 35.1 Evd

A Marcus: +1 Atk, +15 Hit, +7 Crit, +1 Def/Res, +15 Evd, +7 Crit Evd

Their leads in their respective areas are now pretty significant. Sain and Kent are beating him very soundly in offense and there are plenty of enemies Lowen fails to kill. He needs stronger weapons to kill the Wyverns (29-30 HP/10-11 Def survives Lowen's 13 Atk + Steel Sword even with double WTA, while Kent and Sain definitely kill), can't really kill the Knights, is pretty borderline on doubling things (8-9 AS Nomads, 7-9 AS Cavaliers, 7-8 AS Mages) and can't put a dent in Eubans.

Defensively? Kent and Sain seem pretty fine to me. Lowen certainly wins defensively, but are his defensive wins making you finish chapters more quickly when his offense is so fail? Killing everything certainly helps you progress quickly, and Lowen isn't good at that. Kent and Sain seem quite durable are probably among your more durable units now while Lowen's durability is just overkill.

As the game progresses, their leads get bigger and bigger, but I can't think of instances where Kent and Sain's durability poses a problem in terms of efficiency, but Lowen not killing things is definitely a minus for both Tactics and Combat.

Just so you guys know, I'm currently doing a HHM run where I'm determining the amount of maximum Funds you can get in this game (including every side chapter) plus getting enemy stats for myself.

I want to put this whole Farina/Dart/Thief promotion thing to bed one way or another and find out the exact amount of money that's spendable in this game. Not a round figure but an actual number. I think we can then place Farina, Dart and Legault accordingly on the tier list (assuming that we only use 1 Fell Contract and it's on Legault). Should I put my final data here or make a new topic for it, like the enemy stats?

I want to see what happens if you use two Fell Contracts for my double Assassin thing in 32x. I really do think 75k is well worth making the Experience rank turn into either a joke rank or something much easier. If the 30k allowance thing is true, this seems quite affordable, since you can manage with Iron for almost the entire game and most units never even come close to 30k.

Not to mention that if Erk misses out on beating Serra to 20/0 for the first Guiding Ring, he's assured the second one as Prissy won't be at 20/0 by then and Anima > Light when it comes to talking about Lucius.

Priscilla won't even be at 20/0 before Lucius and Canas. What an overrated character. Who cares if your class has a CEXP bonus when you can't see much combat due to being absolute ultra bottom tier in durability (when you lose to Lyn in durability, it's time to quit life)? She can't gain enough EXP through staves alone to even hit 20/10 by the end since she doesn't have a monopoly on them and promotes so damn late. Serra is going to get way more EXP than her overall since she promotes at like...19x or 20 at 20/0 already.

Lowen has failure Knight Crest issues. Oswin's big level lead and the urgency to give him some Spd/Mov almost certainly assures him the first Knight Crest, then Lowen/Kent/Sain compete for Eubans' Knight Crest, and the deprives ones must wait for Four-Fanged Offense to promote. Erk has the first or second Guiding Ring guaranteed.

If Farina cannot exist in a ranked run wouldn't that make her bottom tier? perhaps below Karla? Or at least below Renault, At least he heals and gives us Fortiy. Thats worth more that costing mney to exist and 10k to even promote

Farina isn't bottom tier. She strains Funds, but she's not really providing massive failure.

Items a unit comes with have nothing to do with their performance and can be used by other units.

Farina can exist and cost a lot and put a strain on funds. It's not difficult to work around.

Yeah, this. That's still better than what the others provide...which is failure and only failure no matter what you do.

I don't see any numbers in there, just generalizations that don't really show anything. Here is a snapshot of Erk and Lowen on Pirate Ship:

12/0 Lowen @ Javelin: 32 HP, 16 atk, 11 def, 3 res

12/0 Erk @ Fire: 24.15 HP, 17.4 atk, 4.2 def, 8.4 res

8/0 mercenary @ Steel Sword: 27 HP, 16 atk, 6 def, 2 res

4/0 shaman @ Flux: 19 HP, 14 atk, 2 def, 6 res

6/0 shaman @ Nosferatu: 21 HP, 16 atk, 4 def, 8 res

4/0 archer @ Steel Bow: 23 HP, 16 atk, 4 def, 1 res

6/0 peg knight @ Steel Lance: 21 HP, 18 atk, 4 def, 6 res

I won't bother writing down the actual AS values for anyone; Lowen and Erk both double every enemy but the mercs.

Anyway, Lowen is 8RKO'd by mercs and 3RKO them back. Erk is narrowly 2RKO'd but has slightly better offense, scoring a 2RKO back. Erk wins durability against the shamans, or at least the Flux ones, who 4RKO him and 3RKO Lowen, but the Nosferatu ones 3RKO both. Erk also does not ORKO Nosferatu shamans whereas Lowen does. Both of them ORKO the archer and the PK, but Erk is narrowly 2RKO'd by the archer and 2RKO'd by a decent margin by the PK. Lowen is 7RKO'd by the former and 5RKO'd by the latter.

Now, Pirate Ship is a defensive map, so Lowen's advantages are particularly highlighted there. But even on an offensive map, Lowen has the innate advantage of mount + 2 move.

Yeah, defensively, things are greatly in Lowen's favor...until Erk promotes and/or gets supports. Erk's defensive affinity is nice for him. Once Erk promotes (and even before), he's thrashing Lowen in offense and has staff utility. It's pretty close overall since Erk certainly wins lategame by being durable enough due to his stats and supports and having stages. CoD, for instance, is massively in his favor.

Is Erk really only level 12 when he comes out of LHM at at least level 7-8 and joins in Chapter 14? That seems pretty low to me. I just played an S rank run of LHM last night, used everyone, and Erk was level 7. And you don't have to use everyone.

[Life]

I want to see what happens if you use two Fell Contracts for my double Assassin thing in 32x. I really do think 75k is well worth making the Experience rank turn into either a joke rank or something much easier. If the 30k allowance thing is true, this seems quite affordable, since you can manage with Iron for almost the entire game and most units never even come close to 30k.

We'll see. I'm actually considering trying this out for myself because it could really help the Exp rank and I'm just going to keep track of how much Exp I get from this chapter. What I'm doing is recording the optimal amount of money possible to get (anything that isn't nailed down, essentially). If a sage starts out with Bolting equipped and Elfire backing it, I'll record Elfire as potentially stealable. After that, I'm going to allocate Funds (this I'll do in the topic) to each unit before considering promotion (basically how many weapons does that unit need to finish the game in an S Rank run). You'll see what I mean.

Priscilla won't even be at 20/0 before Lucius and Canas. What an overrated character. Who cares if your class has a CEXP bonus when you can't see much combat due to being absolute ultra bottom tier in durability (when you lose to Lyn in durability, it's time to quit life)? She can't gain enough EXP through staves alone to even hit 20/10 by the end since she doesn't have a monopoly on them and promotes so damn late. Serra is going to get way more EXP than her overall since she promotes at like...19x or 20 at 20/0 already.

Lowen has failure Knight Crest issues. Oswin's big level lead and the urgency to give him some Spd/Mov almost certainly assures him the first Knight Crest, then Lowen/Kent/Sain compete for Eubans' Knight Crest, and the deprives ones must wait for Four-Fanged Offense to promote. Erk has the first or second Guiding Ring guaranteed.

I don't get the first half of the first paragraph.

20/0 Lyn - 29 HP, 6 Def (50% chance of 6+ Def, give her the benefit of the doubt here)

20/0 Erk - 29 HP, 6 Def

20/0 Serra - 26 HP, 5 Def

20/0 Prissy - 23 HP, 5 Def

20/0 Lucius - 26 HP, 2 Def

I understand that all 4 magic users have much higher Res than Lyn. That's not my point. All of them (aside from Erk) lose to Lyn in durability while Erk ties Lyn (again, putting Res aside). How do they "fail at life"? And this is before promotion because Lyn gets 3 HP, 3 Def and 5 Res boost which tops all of them (except Erk again).

As for the second half of that paragraph, who cares? I mean, it's not like a 20/1 Prissy is getting 21 Exp more per kill than a 20/1 Canas against a generic promoted enemy, right? That's not important because she can't survive attacks even though she has 1-2 range and ~48 Avo with Fire before supports, right?

Also, I'm not sure if Oswin is even guaranteed a Knight Crest because Sain and Kent both outrace him to level 20/0 and support each other. I think Oswin's fighting Lowen for the Earth Seal to be honest.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Inui]

We'll see. I'm actually considering trying this out for myself because it could really help the Exp rank and I'm just going to keep track of how much Exp I get from this chapter. What I'm doing is recording the optimal amount of money possible to get (anything that isn't nailed down, essentially). If a sage starts out with Bolting equipped and Elfire backing it, I'll record Elfire as potentially stealable. After that, I'm going to allocate Funds (this I'll do in the topic) to each unit before considering promotion (basically how many weapons does that unit need to finish the game in an S Rank run). You'll see what I mean.

Awesome. I look forward to it.

I don't get the first half of the first paragraph.

Priscilla is placed so high solely due to the Experience rank and her decent benefits towards Tactics. However, the inherent class bonus for female magic users is only for CEXP last I checked, and Priscilla's meh offense and horrendous durability let her see very little combat, meaning she's not some EXP factory or anything close to that. An endgame 20/15 Erk gained pretty muych the same levels as a 20/10 Priscilla, so Priscilla wasn't even better than him for Experience at all. Priscilla has no staff monopoly to spam Warp/Rescue/etc. Serra exists. Lucius gets a C upon promotion. Erk and Canas will have a D+ by the time high level staves exist and are useful. Priscilla is really overrated.

20/0 Lyn - 29 HP, 6 Def (50% chance of 6+ Def, give her the benefit of the doubt here)

20/0 Erk - 29 HP, 6 Def

20/0 Serra - 26 HP, 5 Def

20/0 Prissy - 23 HP, 5 Def

20/0 Lucius - 26 HP, 2 Def

I understand that all 4 magic users have much higher Res than Lyn. That's not my point. All of them (aside from Erk) lose to Lyn in durability while Erk ties Lyn (again, putting Res aside). How do they "fail at life"? And this is before promotion because Lyn gets 3 HP, 3 Def and 5 Res boost which tops all of them (except Erk again).

Lyn has to take counters. The others do not. The others have Evd boosting supports. She does not. Priscilla's combo of HP/Def/Evd is really, really bad compared to the others. I believe I posted some comparison somewhere.

The point is...Priscilla can't see much enemy phase combat, if any, meaning her CEXP class bonus barely comes into play.

As for the second half of that paragraph, who cares? I mean, it's not like a 20/1 Prissy is getting 21 Exp more per kill than a 20/1 Canas against a generic promoted enemy, right? That's not important because she can't survive attacks even though she has 1-2 range and ~48 Avo with Fire before supports, right?

She can't kill anything promoted at 20/1, lol. At least not without it being set up for her, but then she can't use that turn for healing and has to go near enemies, which is a negative.

And 48 Evd blows when you have horrible HP/Def. Wyverns have like 50 Hit on her or slightly less and kill her in two hits, for example. That sucks. She can't safely fight them on enemy phase.

Also, I'm not sure if Oswin is even guaranteed a Knight Crest because Sain and Kent both outrace him to level 20/0 and support each other. I think Oswin's fighting Lowen for the Earth Seal to be honest.

So I'm playing right now in HHM and have a level 14.19 Oswin in Chapter 16 and a level 3.86 Marcus and I have 5 stars in Experience. Oswin is definitely crushing Kent, Sain, and Lowen in levels if you use him. Lol @ Experience rank.