Red Fox of Fire's character review topic (Complete)

[Florete]

First, Raisin is not the best Endgame heron. OK, there's no effective difference between then in 4-E-5 because you're not 1-turning Ashera in Hard Mode, but that's the only place where Rafiel's contribution literally makes no overall difference. Raisin has no answer to Rafiel's 1-turning of 4-E-3 and 4-E-4, at least not that this soldier can see. They are approximately equal in 4-E-2's 1-turn, except in the case where one of your siege bombers misses (which DOES happen, even with Blood Tide, because of Resolve). In which case, Rafiel wins for not only giving you another shot with all of your siege units, but for allowing a Marksman to run down and peg Levail at range. In 4-E-1, Rafiel is more difficult to protect but he also allows you to easily kill off both Hetzel and the other Sleep staff Bishop off on Turn 1, which is so incredibly useful that he should have a strategy named after him, srsly.

First, please stop calling him Raisin all the time, at least in this topic. It's getting kind of annoying.

Second, we have been over this before. How much of this are you really doing in just one turn? As far as I know, some of the one-turn strategies require pretty specific team setups that we obviously will not have each time. And killing Hetzel in one turn? Honestly, who do you think is even doing that? Then there's the fact that Reyson having Canto and freeing up his space can be very useful.

Secondly, I think that Janaff's lead over Ulki should be at least a point.

You mean half point, right?

Durability is a non-issue as you said, they are both never dying. Offense, however, is a big deal. The fact of the matter is, Janaff clean-hit kills things and Ulki doesn't, which means I have to have some other unit finish off Ulki's dinner. For the things that Janaff can't handle, as you mentioned he gets Tear much more easily, and for everything else there's Adept (which Ulki is negligibly better with). I realize that I'm not really disagreeing with you here, just giving my two cents. I hope that you can figure out a solution to the (lack of a) gap problem for the two of them.

Well, you haven't said anything here I didn't mention in my write-up, at least not that I can see. You just think the magnitude of the differences is greater. As I mentioned at the end, it isn't impossible for them to receive different scores.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

Then there's the fact that Reyson having Canto and freeing up his space can be very useful.

Well, how often would Raphael actually take up a space someone wants outside of 4-E-5, where Raphael partially makes up for it by not needing a gem to automatically do what he needs to do, that being Galdring 4 people in one turn?

[Mekkah]

First, please stop calling him Raisin all the time, at least in this topic. It's getting kind of annoying.

I think Raisin sounds better than Raphael.

[Florete]

Well, how often would Raphael actually take up a space someone wants outside of 4-E-5, where Raphael partially makes up for it by not needing a gem to automatically do what he needs to do, that being Galdring 4 people in one turn?

That point was meant specifically for 4-E-5.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that, although I still believe Reyson is better, the line is very thin. Rafiel is still clearly a good choice, and even if he could be proved better I wouldn't hold it against Reyson much because Reyson would be only slightly worse and would still be optimal in an event like Rafiel's death or for his support partner or something.

I think Raisin sounds better than Raphael.

I probably didn't notice that one because I pronounce it the same either way...At least he isn't saying Ruffle.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Anouleth]

Second, we have been over this before. How much of this are you really doing in just one turn? As far as I know, some of the one-turn strategies require pretty specific team setups that we obviously will not have each time. And killing Hetzel in one turn? Honestly, who do you think is even doing that? Then there's the fact that Reyson having Canto and freeing up his space can be very useful.

Well, it depends on the chapter. I think it's pretty obvious that it's much, much easier to beat Dheginsea with 5 or 6 units capable of reaching him on turn one instead of 2 or 3. I don't think it's even possible to 1-turn 4-E-4 without Rafiel.

As for specific team strategies, Int managed to beat 4-E-2, 3 and 4 in one turn, and given that his team was Royals + Jill/Nolan/Shinon/Mia/Nephenee, I think that team's not unreasonable to assume.

Personally, I don't kill Hetzel on turn 1, but I do try and kill the other Sleep staffer. Having to Restore Ike with Ena or Micaiah is a pain, since Micaiah could be off attacking things or Rescuing people into position.

[dondon151]

I am far more annoyed with Raphael than Raisin.

[Interceptor]

First, please stop calling him Raisin all the time, at least in this topic. It's getting kind of annoying.

But it's just a phonetic nickname. I think the request is silly, but I'll meet you halfway and redact acronym-hide it in this thread.

Second, we have been over this before. How much of this are you really doing in just one turn? As far as I know, some of the one-turn strategies require pretty specific team setups that we obviously will not have each time. And killing Hetzel in one turn? Honestly, who do you think is even doing that? Then there's the fact that Reyson having Canto and freeing up his space can be very useful.

Well, even though Rafiel requires a good team, the point is that Reyson can't do it regardless of how good his team is, because you need more than a single Vigored unit on the first turn. I don't know what kind of balance you have between the infinity awful teams and the relatively small number of excellent teams, but Rafiel has no trouble beating Reyson in turn counts on the few that are very efficient.

Anyway, about the specifics, you only need 50mt with a 2-range weapon and 28 AS in order to kill Hetzel. Depending on who you pick, you might be able to get away with Parity to drop the mt requirement to 40. As an example, Jill with a Tomahawk is sufficient. Haar with a spitball can do it as well. The Bishop with Sleep can be taken out by anyone with Pass, you just have to ghost through the Generals in front of him.

There's no question that Reyson being able to Canto at high MV is useful. The problem is, that's definitely not as useful as the ability to shut down the two biggest threats on the map before they can even do anything. Those guys can reach almost anywhere on the map, they'll be prioritizing your low-RES frontliners and wrecking your Enemy Phase.

So, my argument, in brief:

• 4-E-1: see above
  
• 4-E-2: both capable of 1-turn, but Rafiel's is safer. Tie goes to him due to added reliability.
  
• 4-E-3: four Vigors on 1st turn makes it possible to kill Dheg before anything on the map can act. I don't think that Reyson can do this even with a perfect team. I'll stand corrected if someone can show otherwise.
  
• 4-E-4: same as 4-E-3, except Sephiran.
  
• 4-E-5: can't 1-turn this in Hard Mode AFAIK, so it's a straight stalemate here. I can make an argument about a 4-way Bliss on the first turn, but let's not go there, and just call it a tie.
  

You mean half point, right?

No, I mean like drop Ulki down to Nephenee's tier, aka a full 1.0 between them. I consider Ulki's offensive failure with respect to Janaff to be pretty significant. The hawks don't have critforges to fall back onto, so a failure to proc Adept is serious. If Janaff's SPD wasn't an Endgame-worthy 34 transformed I'd say differently, but the fact is that Janaff is a killing machine and Ulki is really not. The resources to get Ulki to Janaff's level of offense are considerable, and can't be used on someone else.

So yeah, I said that I wasn't really disagreeing with you. I'm just stressing it differently.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Interceptor

[-Cynthia-]

I find the blanked out name more annoying.

[Interceptor]

Everyone's a critic. You could have at least said something about the substantive content of my post. I changed it to something that I think is less "annoying".

Is there anyone else who wants to suck all the fun out of posting on the Internet? Maybe someone who has an objection to either dotted underlines or mouse-over tool-tips? Better post about it here, let's just crush the life out of my personality before it has a chance to injure someone.

[chococoke]

Everyone's a critic. You could have at least said something about the substantive content of my post. I changed it to something that I think is less "annoying".

Is there anyone else who wants to suck all the fun out of posting on the Internet? Maybe someone who has an objection to either dotted underlines or mouse-over tool-tips? Better post about it here, let's just crush the life out of my personality before it has a chance to injure someone.

I'd like it more if you stopped using punctuation.

In order for this to be more than just useless spam, though, I'd just like to say great work on the ratings, and after attempting to use Lyre in hopes she would become something amazing, I almost cut my eyes out in frustration.

[-Cynthia-]

Doesn't Reyson auto-transform at the beginning of 4-E(3)? Other than that, I personally don't find it very efficient for us to spend turns Laguz stonign when we can just Vigor everyone. Rafiel is fairly flexible with Celerity on anyway.

[Interceptor]

That's true, he may indeed. The regular laguz do, including the dragons, but it's been so long since I've used Reyson in Endgame that I couldn't say whether it works on the herons or not. I don't see why not.

In any case, it strengthens Reyson's position relative to Rafiel, but I'd still say that he's losing overall as Endgame Vigor Unit of Choice.

[Florete]

Unfortunately, IS decided against giving our Herons a full gauge for 4-E-3.

[Loki Laufeyson]

No, I mean like drop Ulki down to Nephenee's tier, aka a full 1.0 between them. I consider Ulki's offensive failure with respect to Janaff to be pretty significant. The hawks don't have critforges to fall back onto, so a failure to proc Adept is serious. If Janaff's SPD wasn't an Endgame-worthy 34 transformed I'd say differently, but the fact is that Janaff is a killing machine and Ulki is really not. The resources to get Ulki to Janaff's level of offense are considerable, and can't be used on someone else.

I have to agree with this. Even if you put Tear on Ulki as well, Janaff is still killing more stuff.

[Narga_Rocks]

Not that I'm trying to force you or anything, but I know from some of your other posts you forget this from time to time.

Continue?

[Florete]

Aha, right. Who am I on now? Sigrun and Tanith, it seems. That shouldn't be too hard. Will hopefully get there some time tonight.

[Florete]

Better late than never?

Also, don't be surprised to see the scores in this post change a bit in time, as I am not 100% sure myself on the accuracy. I feel they might be too high, but instead of thinking on it too long I'll let you guys do the dirty work and talk about it together.

Sigrun

I had been hoping while playing Path of Radiance for the first back in the day that Sigrun would eventually become playable. I was, of course, disappointed in the end, as she was never playable in that game. However, Radiant Dawn solves that issue and gives us our light blue-haired (or whatever color that is) Pegasus Knight for use on the battlefield!

That was the first step. The second step, making her half-decent, was essentially failed.

Don't get me wrong, Sigrun is not a terrible unit by any means. It's more like she's just "bad." First off, her availability is not great; two part 3 chapters and part 4 is all she gets, and she's even forced to Micaiah's route in part 4 (which can be good or bad, but that's later). They were nice enough to make her forced for her first four maps, but that's only worth as much as she can do in them, and that, unfortunately, is not too much.

First things first, offense. Her base Strength is 18, tied with Sothe's base Strength, only he started 18 levels and too many chapters earlier in the game. Conclusion: Sigrun's damage output is not good. You can give her a Silver Greatlance (the strongest weapon she has access to) and, before any Hit issues, she is still mostly in the 3-4 hit KO range on the enemies in her joining map. This would be somewhat forgivable if she could double them, but unfortunately even that is limited only to the Paladins and Sages on the map, enemies most of your allies have no problem killing.

Her high base level is both a blessing and a curse. It means she levels fairly slowly, but also puts her a mere two levels from promotion in the absence of a Master Crown. While promotion gains won't make her lethal, they definitely give her a boost in combat on the field. Leveling slowly barely matters anyway since her growths are mostly awful; 45% Strength growth would be decent on most units, but not on someone with such a low base in the stat like Sigrun. And then 25% Speed and 10% Defense? Don't expect Sigrun to tank any time soon, either by dodging or by taking it like a woman (and her bases don't cover for her, in case you were wondering; 20 Defense base isn't terrible but 34 HP is). These are, however, alleviated by her 70% growths in Luck and Skill and her 50% in Resistance because...Oh, who am I kidding, her growths as a whole are terrible, and there really isn't anything you can do to get her out of it aside from only a temporary promotion fix.

And so, Sigrun's use gets mostly limited to her utility value. She can plug up holes in 3-11, which is always nice, and she can ferry people around with ease in 3-E, 4-P, and the desert of 4-3. Her Water affinity can be nice for someone like Tanith or any other CRK that needs a quick partner for a few maps. Unfortunately, she's one of the last choices you'll want for Endgame, so I don't think it's even worth describing her performance there.

3.5/10

Tanith

Tanith suffers from some similar problems as Sigrun but is partially saved by a few other fixes.

First off, it should be noted that, Strength, aside, Tanith's bases are actually worse. However, it's so minor almost every case that the +2 Strength in Tanith's favor can almost make her better right off the bat. This doesn't make Tanith great or anything; on the contrary, Tanith is still sort of bad. Her Strength is better but not by much, and her 1 less Speed actually cases her to miss the double on a lot of enemies Sigrun got.

However, Tanith could be seen as having a much better position in terms of growth potential. Her base level is 3 lower, giving her a bit of a higher experience gain, and her growths are superior in almost every regard, and certainly all the important ones. With some help from Paragon she can begin doubling either by late 3-E or by 4-P/1/2, and with her promotion she'll soon by at the level of most of the rest of your team, aided by an okay 40% Speed growth and good 55% Strength growth. It's also worth noting that she'll have high Stun activation rates owing to her amazing Skill stat.

The durability end starts rather lacking but grows as well. Not necessarily concretely, but a support does wonders because of her Earth affinity. This isn't a perfect solution, as, due to her low availability, she doesn't actually have much time to build support and use her affinity, but she can get one immediately with Sigrun and should be able to find a different partner for the start of part 4 that will build from there. She'll always be afraid of Snipers and Crossbows, but that is to be expected.

Other than that, she retains all the utility uses that made Sigrun better than terrible, including hole plugging and ferrying over maps. In the end, Tanith is a unit that may need resources to be good, and yet the end won't be amazing, but good. Using her is really up to one's own discretion.

4.5/10

Transfer changes:

Skill and Speed are Tanith's transfer boosts. These actually help quite a lot. The Speed is obvious, since that's just about how much she was off from doubling somewhat consistently, so her offense becomes much better. The Skill also helps by capping one level and making Bonus Experience levels start targeting lower growths. All in all, not a huge improvement, but a notable one.

5/10

[Interceptor]

I basically agree with the idea of the two pegs being too high. Sigrun is in the same bracket as Leonardo, which implies that they have about the same impact on an efficient clear. This strikes me as impossible to defend. Sigrun is forced outside of Endgame, but Leonardo is rarely negative to deploy, and he has some important earlygame utility as well as some use even in Part 3, thanks to his PRF weapon.

[Florete]

I basically agree with the idea of the two pegs being too high. Sigrun is in the same bracket as Leonardo, which implies that they have about the same impact on an efficient clear. This strikes me as impossible to defend. Sigrun is forced outside of Endgame, but Leonardo is rarely negative to deploy, and he has some important earlygame utility as well as some use even in Part 3, thanks to his PRF weapon.

I see what you mean for sure (I considered that specifically myself). My end decision on those scores was a combination of not wanting to have the both of them too far apart and also making sure I felt they were in the right area compared to everyone else. I had some trouble on that one.

Now, I'll see if anyone else has anyone to say.

[grandjackal]

I've pretty much always said that I felt Tanith is highly overrated, so I'm quite content to see them much closer.

[Anouleth]

Well, I can't see Tanith below Soren or Calill, but maybe she could be next to them. Sigrun I agree is too high, since she's higher than Nealuchi. Is her ferrying and filler combatant and pitblocking really more useful than Nealuchi's Part 2 contributions?

[grandjackal]

I saw your Kyza review as a note, and I noticed you said you never used him. Allow me to clear the air.

22 AS kills him, even though he can still double generals, mages and dracos.

Anyone who can double is capable of murdering a mage, him included. Done there.

Generals have about 24 Def at his time, so he's doing a grand total of 6x2 damage. It's better than Lethe, who would be tinking them if she were incapable of getting levels (Ok,she'd be doing 2x2, still not great). Boyd needs a hammer to outdamage Kyza significantly, as a level 14 Boyd with a steel poleaxe only does 14 damage in comparison. Still better, but come on. Boyd's still got the killer axe, but...

Dracos are a similar deal, but have less durability, and Boyd can't thwack them with an effective weapon.

However, this brings us to warriors, swordmasters and halberdiers. He's better than Lethe on swordmasters because her 24 AS can't double them either. However, there are halbs and warriors next. Lethe would be doing 8x2 damage, while Kyza would just do 12. Halberdiers, Lethe does 6x2 damage, Kyza does 10.

He does basically start out outperforming Lethe, if she had gotten no strength ups. It's also helpful he's more durable than a level 14 Boyd if he got a Dracoshield (he would tie defense, still lose HP and Res..and speed so he'd be doubled by swordmasters still). However, saying you outperform Lethe is not really special (even then, she could be close to S Strike to get 5 more might, now outperforming Kyza badly, or could get a level doing cardflipping through part 2 for possible Str), and neither is having offensive trade-offs between himself and a trained-up Boyd (Boyd's still too slow to double generals, wyverns and mages, though he's at least got killers/hammers for generals) while having 2 more move and better durability but lack of ranged option (I don't really consider tiger gauge an issue).

Kyza's just...exceedingly average. There's no real reason to use him over Mordecai (far more durable, one swipe outdamages even Kyza's doubles even though Kyza would get more strike out of it, Mordy's far more durable) or Lethe (who again could have proc'd an Str, have Mordy support, and/or is incredibly close to S strike which is incredibly close to outperforming Kyza entirely, despite her Cat Gauge).

When you're saying "I'm shaky between choosing Kyza over Lethe or Boyd"...

Edited April 15, 2010 by Cait Sith

[Kinata]

If Sigrun or Skrimir die in 4-P, will their forced slots in 4-3 be useable by anyone? If so, they may be considered negative utility, though IIRC, you're not pressed for units in that chapter. I guess it's more for curiosity.

[Anouleth]

If Sigrun or Skrimir die in 4-P, will their forced slots in 4-3 be useable by anyone? If so, they may be considered negative utility, though IIRC, you're not pressed for units in that chapter. I guess it's more for curiosity.

You rarely have a shortage of unit slots in this game, especially in Part 4. Sigrun/Skrimir are doing far more with their slot than some useless 2nd tier that we didn't bother training.

[-Cynthia-]

Sigrun can actually be a somewhat decent combat unit before Endgame. If you toss her a Master Crown or two levels of BEXP in 3-11 it's enough for her to double most of the 3-11/3-E enemies and the 4-P enemies since they're slow as well. These maps also have a lot of Paladins she can use the Horseslayer on. She's not ORKOing normally, though a critforge and Stun give her a decent chance to ORKO stuff anyway. In 4-3 we probably want to use our fliers for combat rather than ferrying, so Sigrun serves an important role. She can also kill the Sages and Bishops that will annoy Haar, so not completely useless.

3.5 seems fair IMO, especially since she's forced before 4-E anyway.

Edited April 15, 2010 by -Cynthia-