Finally making my own, personal, rating topic/tier list.

[aku chi]

[Haar's] ability to ferry is highly limited and is his only real flexibility point

How is Haar's ability to ferry "highly limited"? He has the best movement type in the game, the highest weight amongst all mounted units, the best durability in his movement type, and so is the best rescue-dropper in the chapters he's in (especially in those chapters with relevant terrain that flying units can circumvent: namely, chapters 24, 25, 28, and Endgame).

It's not like the Arms Scrolls are doing anything (like I mentioned above, only Neph and Devdan really use them and not as well) so it's really Haar or bank.

You keep saying this. You're wrong in the general point (Arms Scrolls have a higher demand than you acknowledge) but I'm particularly baffled by your suggestion that Devdan can make good use of an Arms Scroll. Devdan starts with B lances, and can therefore use every lance except Silver Lances. But a Steel Lance forge (which we've had a few opportunities to craft) is stricly superior to a Silver Lance. Having the weapon rank to wield C16's Silver Lance (if we even get it) is nice (and something Titania should have no trouble doing), but it only saves us a Steel Lance forge. Silver Lance forges don't become available until C23, which gives Devdan plenty of time to reach A-rank - if we're bothering to use him.

[Snowy_One]

My numbers are more fair. It's not like the Arms Scrolls are doing anything (like I mentioned above, only Neph and Devdan really use them and not as well) so it's really Haar or bank. And in return, Haar 2HKOs the rest of the game, a stunt that many units cannot do. That's the value. You just completely disregard it for whatever reason and then refuse to pull your fingers out of your ears when someone proves you wrong.

Consider how are and fervently you fought against my rating, both in-topic and in-AIM. Now consider how close our scores are and how our assessment of the character was similar, but with different values attached to it.

Now, I have read your post and I am convinced enough to raise his customization score, though not to a 2 as you suggest. A 1, sure, 1.5 maybe, but not a 2. As far as I am concerned, he simply joins too late and is too reliant on having to get something to be usable as a combat unit at all to get such a score.

How is Haar's ability to ferry "highly limited"? He has the best movement type in the game, the highest weight amongst all mounted units, the best durability in his movement type, and so is the best rescue-dropper in the chapters he's in (especially in those chapters with relevant terrain that flying units can circumvent: namely, chapters 24, 25, 28, and Endgame).

He joins after every other flier in the game. He is around for basically only the final fifth of the game. Jill can already do what Haar does and has similar durability, but offense of actual value. When he's not rescue-dropping he's pretty poor on the offense overall unless he got his items at which point he's still a bit lack-luster.

[aku chi]

He joins after every other flier in the game. He is around for basically only the final fifth of the game. Jill can already do what Haar does and has similar durability, but offense of actual value. When he's not rescue-dropping he's pretty poor on the offense overall unless he got his items at which point he's still a bit lack-luster.

This doesn't answer my question. In the chapters he is in, how is Haar's rescue-dropping "highly limited"? The goal of a rescue-drop is to drop another combat unit to accomplish some task (kill enemies/boss or seize/arrive). Offense is often not important. Haar's best-of-the-best mobility and Wt plus great durability makes him the best at it! A trained Jill (not present in every playthrough) is the only unit that can replicate Haar's rescue-dropping.

[Life]

Consider how are and fervently you fought against my rating, both in-topic and in-AIM. Now consider how close our scores are and how our assessment of the character was similar, but with different values attached to it.

Now, I have read your post and I am convinced enough to raise his customization score, though not to a 2 as you suggest. A 1, sure, 1.5 maybe, but not a 2. As far as I am concerned, he simply joins too late and is too reliant on having to get something to be usable as a combat unit at all to get such a score.

1.5 is fine. The lowest score that I can agree with him getting is a 4.5. Haar's got fantastic parameters for when he joins and his Spd isn't a killer. It's just not good enough to double faster enemies.

[Snowy_One]

Alright, next up is... Bastion.

Bastion, where to begin on the reasons for failure... Bastion is a sage who joins at the start of chapter 24. Right there we already see one huge problem with Bastion. Even if he was an amazing unit, he would only have, at most, six chapters of usage before the endgame. In fact, you could say a lot of things about Bastion that would also apply to Haar, except Haar actually has a degree of redeemability, Bastion does not. Both are late joiners to the team (only join one chapter apart, and considering how late Haar joins in his own chapter, they might as well be the same). Both join as units with low SPD, except Bastion is actually SLOWER than Haar! Coming with 16 SPD, Haar beats him from the base. Bastion is frailer than Haar all-around as well and has much lower move. In a LTC playstyle, he is near-worthless simply because he will have difficulty keeping up with the team and, when he does get into combat, he will be too slow to reliably double. Additionally, without the magic dusts, his damage output is simply low. Even wielding forged thunder, he has only 32 MT at maximum level without the dusts (even that is just barely as it's 23.55). Even though he attacks RES (which is usually around 10 or so as opposed to defense), with his low AS he is simply unlikely to double. We can spend speedwings on him and dusts to boost his offense, but even if we did, first off we could get the same effect as Bastion earlier by investing them on Ilyana or any other sage (Ilyana is just to closest to Bastion), but we would only have him for the final six chapters. There is a very real chance that he will be left being as well, meaning he needs the boots or to be in a non-LTC playstyle. Even in the latter, he is simply inferior to his sage counterparts, who can all either wield staves and/or have stats that are at least acceptable and may not even need boosters (before you say it, I am talking non-LTC here, so levels are likely higher). Sure, staves *might* be hard to level, might be superficious, and all that, but they STILL beat the snot out of knives as a mage secondary weapon!

Bastion comes with Corrosion, which is utterly worthless as a skill. Even at 20/20, it can only reduce the WHP of a weapon by 10 and only activates 26% of time time. Even if it activated every time, you would need someone capable of withstanding 2-3 hits before he could even feasibly break the weapon which, if he can't double, means 2-3 rounds of combat! Pretty much the only use for it is if a enemy has a 1-2 range weapon (which would hurt Bastion), was tough enough to last 2 rounds (ignoring that it has only a 26% chance to activate) and Bastion was the only one fighting them. Support-wise he's fairly worthless as well. Lucia, Makalov, and Volke. The first is bad as well, the second has high movement and won't likely be in range (and would rather support Haar if given the chance), and the last probably won't even be played unless there is something to steal/open and even then will likely avoid combat, making the support practically worthless.

So... Rating time...

Speed: 0.5: In order for Bastion to even consider helping, he needs the wings to double and the boots to keep up. He can't claim any real use beyond, maybe, a siege tome user otherwise and, even if he is strong enough to use them without AS loss, his natural low speed makes it worthless. He can't claim a support role, not as a rescuer, not as a healer, not even as a support-battery really. Any amount of resources spent on Bastion to make him good could be spent on another mage to get similar/better results earlier.

Flexibility: 0.5: At least Ena could potentially be a tank for a chapter or two (yes, I am including a endgame where we don't quick-kill Ashnard). I can't see Bastion being anything beyond a siege-tome user. Pretty much the only reason I'm giving him even half a point is because, if the resources are invested, there will at least be a return, pitiful as it is, while Ena has a very distinct chance of no return at all.

Customization: 0.5: Bastion needs the speedwings to even compete. Unlike Haar, though, on top of those there is a very real chance he will need the dusts and boots to keep up. He certainly will need them in a LTC playthrough and even outside of it, he simply doesn't do anything special.

Overall: To get Bastion usable, we simply need to invest a lot of resources for his six chapters of underwhelming use.

Edit: Before you say it, yes, I can see Bastion being below Nasir VERY easily. You don't really need to argue it. All I really need is some people confirming that he has almost no use in his chapters/the resource cost is way too high to be convinced.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Snowy_One

[Integrity]

Okay, this bothered the loving fuck out of me for the whole thing.

Bastian.

[Life]

Speed: 1: In order for Bastion to even consider helping, he needs the wings to double and the boots to keep up. He can't claim any real use beyond, maybe, a siege tome user otherwise and, even if he is strong enough to use them without AS loss, his natural low speed makes it worthless. He can't claim a support role, not as a rescuer, not as a healer, not even as a support-battery really. Any amount of resources spent on Bastion to make him good could be spent on another mage to get similar/better results earlier.

This seems very contradictory. Your write-up indicates a 0 while your score is a 1.

For the record, I think it should be 0 Speed, 0.5 Flexibility and... maybe 0.5 Customization. He IS salvageable but unlike Haar, the result just isn't worth it whatsoever. Could even be 0 for still being shit AFTER the salvage.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Bblader

[Snowy_One]

This seems very contradictory. Your write-up indicates a 0 while your score is a 1.

For the record, I think it should be 0 Speed, 0.5 Flexibility and... maybe 0.5 Customization. He IS salvageable but unlike Haar, the result just isn't worth it whatsoever. Could even be 0 for still being shit AFTER the salvage.

Very observant. That's because it actually was a 0 before I took a step back and looked at Nasir who got a 1 and I didn't feel right giving Bastion a 0 when he at least had some chapters of use compared to Nasir's maximum of two. However... as I said in the post, I am more than willing to drop his score seeing as Bastion is nothing more than a resource-intensive drain who, even if said drain is done, is around for only a few chapters and will likely be used as little more than a siege tome platform even then, not to mention any other sage being better than him with equal/less resources spent and for longer as well.

[Life]

Very observant. That's because it actually was a 0 before I took a step back and looked at Nasir who got a 1 and I didn't feel right giving Bastion a 0 when he at least had some chapters of use compared to Nasir's maximum of two. However... as I said in the post, I am more than willing to drop his score seeing as Bastion is nothing more than a resource-intensive drain who, even if said drain is done, is around for only a few chapters and will likely be used as little more than a siege tome platform even then, not to mention any other sage being better than him with equal/less resources spent and for longer as well.

It is perfectly fine for Bastian to get a rating below Nasir's. I mean, he has shit offense, shit defense and shit everything else including Move. At least Nasir doesn't die and does massive chip. Bastian can't even achieve that.

[Snowy_One]

Huh. I'm shocked at how smoothly this Bastion review has gone. I'll modify his score soon and will likely review the next person up, Mordi, tomorrow.

Am I cursed or something? Makalov aside, everyone I've gotten has been either fairly low or a Laguz. Nephenee I chose, but she's been the only one. Ah-well, I suppose I'll filter out and get to the higher characters eventually.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Bastion having an amazing personality but being an fucking awful unit is something that just about everyone can agree on

[Snowy_One]

Bastion having an amazing personality but being an fucking awful unit is something that just about everyone can agree on

Still, I expected Aki or Anny or some devoted fanboy to come in screaming about how good Bastian can be or something similar. It seemed like such a easy review that I thought there was almost guaranteed to be something I was forgetting/overlooking that could make him good.

[Sigma]

Hmmm... Interesting topic. Bblade seems to know his stuff, but Snowy doesn't seem to be that stupid either. I will watch this with interest.

[Life]

Still, I expected Aki or Anny or some devoted fanboy to come in screaming about how good Bastian can be or something similar. It seemed like such a easy review that I thought there was almost guaranteed to be something I was forgetting/overlooking that could make him good.

We go after your logic, not your person. I just enjoy making snide little remarks about intelligence.

Bastian is a shit unit. No two ways around it.

[Interceptor]

Putting the Arms Scrolls on Mist is worthless because it gives her offense for 25 attacks. That's not worth it whatsoever.

It's certainly worthless from the perspective of folks who only look at raw individual combat performance -- more colloquially known as "people that don't matter a fart in a hurricane" -- but it's a fair decision from the perspective of the team.

Mist has really good mobility once promoted, and so she tends to be near the front lines in order to provide healing and offer her excellent supports. Even without the Sonic Sword, she has access to Steel, and serves as a decent weakener/finisher when not actively doing any patching up of her teammates. However, if she has the SS, you have the ability to turn someone who is normally not a combatant, into an instant bail-out button. In other words, if you need temporary offense -- such as in the case where enemy density is more than the normal crew can handle, or when something otherwise untoward like a badly-timed miss happens -- Mist is capable of stepping up and taking someone out.

Sonic Sword is limited even when you use Hammerne on it, that's just the nature of the weapon. So it stands to reason that having one of your support units take the role of short-term combat steroid can be more efficient than having one of your primary combatants (like Manith, for example) do it, since your regular fighters are all capable with ordinary weapons, and will generally have something better to do on any given Turn.

With the structure of this rating topic, in terms of flexibility and customization, this is definitely something that should be taken into consideration for her score, even if not for the likely distribution of Arms Scrolls in terms of characters like Haar.

[CrashGordon94]

Also, it's actually 50 uses because there are two Sonics IIRC. Plus she won't be far from the Runesword once she's actually burnt through all those uses if she manages it.

This might not matter much for super-duper efficient play but it's not a outright terrible use for the Scrolls and it might be something Snowy might want to at least give a passing consideration to.

[Colonel M]

I haven't seen a second Sonic Sword in character database nor item drop.

[Interceptor]

Also, it's actually 50 uses because there are two Sonics IIRC. Plus she won't be far from the Runesword once she's actually burnt through all those uses if she manages it.

There are two Sonic Swords in the game, but the second one is a troll sword, because it's on a boss that has SPD too high for you to steal it from (since it's before Volke can promote). Without hacks, you are limited to the one that Manith comes with.

Runesword is not a good option for Mist. It's only available for the last couple of chapters, and weighs so much that more than likely it will prevent her from doubling with it.

[CrashGordon94]

Oh right, I hadn't seen it myself but I had just heard that there were two in the game and assumed.

[Life]

Mist has really good mobility once promoted, and so she tends to be near the front lines in order to provide healing and offer her excellent supports. Even without the Sonic Sword, she has access to Steel, and serves as a decent weakener/finisher when not actively doing any patching up of her teammates. However, if she has the SS, you have the ability to turn someone who is normally not a combatant, into an instant bail-out button. In other words, if you need temporary offense -- such as in the case where enemy density is more than the normal crew can handle, or when something otherwise untoward like a badly-timed miss happens -- Mist is capable of stepping up and taking someone out.

Sonic Sword is limited even when you use Hammerne on it, that's just the nature of the weapon. So it stands to reason that having one of your support units take the role of short-term combat steroid can be more efficient than having one of your primary combatants (like Manith, for example) do it, since your regular fighters are all capable with ordinary weapons, and will generally have something better to do on any given Turn.

But Int, you've forgotten the real question. What's the point?

So we turn Mist into a usable combat unit. Yippie. Now what? Oh, she can clean up a missed kill. Hmm. That applies to just about... well, everyone. I don't see you talking about Rhys' offense in this light. Perhaps you should in order to stay consistent. If we give Rhys a forged Light tome (and a Speedwings), we have the ability to turn someone who is normally not a combatant, into an instant bail-out button. In other words, if you need temporary offense -- such as in the case where enemy density is more than the normal crew can handle, or when something otherwise untoward like a badly-timed miss happens -- Rhys is capable of stepping up and taking someone out.

Stop me if this sounds like a case of deja vu; my copypasta skills aren't well polished.

[dondon151]

His point is that Rhys doesn't have enough movement to step up and take someone out.

For the record, I don't agree that Arms Scrolls on Mist is a superior investment to Arms Scrolls on Haar.

[Interceptor]

But Int, you've forgotten the real question. What's the point?

I already told you what the point was. If Mist is deployed, we're using her for healing and supports for the most part, and she has some free time. Giving the Sonic Sword duty to her just makes sense from a logistical perspective. There aren't enough uses of the SS to use it full-time, she can pick it up for very little effort, and bam, now you can crank the party's combat prowess up to 11 when you need to.

dondon is halfway there. Not only does Rhys not have the movement, but he also doesn't have the supports, and forging a Light tome and giving him a Speedwing carries some significant opportunity cost with it. By contrast, Arms Scrolls aren't in high demand, and it doesn't really matter who uses the Sonic Sword as long as they are using it effectively, aka OHKO/ORKOing with it when needed, which Mist more or less does easily.

Stop me if this sounds like a case of deja vu; my copypasta skills aren't well polished.

As far as pasta-debates go, you're right up there with AdjectiveNoun.

[Snowy_One]

Next up is Mordi!

Here is a surprising shocker for people whom have likely spent a lot of time debating me. I do not hate Mordi. Yes, he supports both Mist and Stefan, two people whom I constantly struggle against, yes he's very slow and it constantly annoys me that people adore Mordi, but then trash Ilyana for speed, and I will admit I don't use him often, if at all, but I do not actually hate him. But let's get down to business, shall we?

Mordi comes in chapter 9/10 (depending on if you want to count the chapter he is a ally or not) along with Lethe. Mordi is meant to be the 'slow and powerful' bruiser type of Laguz, a high-movement general basically. Mordi has a transform gauge that allows him to shift at turn 5 assuming no combat. He is also incredibly slow...

Yea. I don't 'hate' Mordi, but I really feel that his issues are constantly under-addressed. Let's start from the top. Mordi cannot transform until turn 5 before chapter 16. This means he cannot help out in combat in those first few turns of any map and I would not be shocked to find out he often ends up ending maps with a third of his bar left unused. So in the earlier chapters he's not worth much at all. Even after the demi-band, he is SLOW! At 20/20 unbanded he has 20 SPD... That's pretty pitiful. Even with two speedwings he has 24 SPD, 23 if we band him. In fact, without the wings, Mordi will lose out to Ilyana in SPD at 20/20 and even with them, Ilyana manages 23 SPD without needing the demiband or a second wing... So... yea. Bad Mordi.

Yet somehow, despite these two huge flaws, he manages to score above Nephenee on the tier lists. He clearly isn't all downsides, so what is it that allows him to be so grand? Well, he is a brute. Simple as that. Boasting high attack, a bonus of +4 to STR when banded, and some nice supports, he can break 40 damage easily. To top it off he has high defenses as well, especially in the early game (he joins with 13 DEF, which is more than Titania will likely have at that point, and this is before shifting). In fact, it seems unfair to rate him on his endgame performance as his potency is in the early game where he in a simple brute once he shifts.

On the flexibility front he's not a terrible slouch, despite being arguably below 'average'. His high defense and shifting ability alone make him good bait for ravens and bosses, plus... there is Smite. I am going to come out and say it upfront. I do not see much value in Smite. I have never had much use for shoving in general and I do not usually play for low turn counts, rendering shove near-worthless to me. However, for people seeking such a goal, he can be highly useful as it allows him to increase the movement of a unit in range by 2 basically. As for his supports, Mordi has five. Mist, Ilyana, Ulki, Stefan, and Ranulf. Ranulf is a late joiner as is Ulki (he won't even B Mordi until 23) and Ulki will have some trouble staying in range so... neither of those are good. That leaves Stefan, Ilyana, and Mist. I can assure you Mordi will NOT A support Stefan given the chance (11 chapters) and it doesn't even give good bonuses (.5 attack and defense and a bunch of hit. NEITHER OF THEM NEED THAT!), so that leaves Ilyana and Mist... I will be honest, while I have some troubles with both of these (a certain someone is bound to whine about movement with Ilyana and Mist, as a healer, should be going where the heals are needed and, that aside, unless she has the SS, won't likely need the bonuses anyways), they're not bad supports. Mordi isn't going to complain about +3 attack/DEF and Ilyana certainly doesn't mind +1 attack/+2 DEF even if she's less likely to be using them.

So, breakdown time.

Speed: 3.5: Mordi has great early-game power. While he does struggle with a transform gauge and speed, between smite and his raw stats it's clear he's a powerhouse. The only reason this isn't higher is because, endgame, he needs both speedwings to pass. Even then his speed isn't so amazing. Early game power, late game potency, I won't be shocked to find out people have argued he should get a gem usage just to help out.

Flexibility: 3: Mordi can be pretty flexible. High attack, defense, movement, smite, he would seem like a early-game dream. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that, if it wasn't for his gauge, he would be in high/top tier. However, that gauge does exist, and it hurts. He won't be able to fight until turn 5 unless he gets some action out of form, he can't fight when unshifted, and later on, he suffers speed issues bad.

Customization: 2: Mordi needs at least one speedwing to even be acceptable later on in the game, most likely two. With his late shifting, he also likely needs the demi-band... That isn't good for a customization score. The thing that saves him is that, with these items, he can be a solid addition to the team throughout the game.

[Integrity]

It bears mention that not only do Laguz Stones exist, Mordecai actually joins with one in his inventory.

So yes, it's only 2 (?) times, but he CAN transform before Turn 5 on maps before 16.

[arvilino]

It bears mention that not only do Laguz Stones exist, Mordecai actually joins with one in his inventory.

So yes, it's only 2 (?) times, but he CAN transform before Turn 5 on maps before 16.

Four times. There's a Raven in chapter 12 which drops another one. So that's enough for once for 10 through 14, he could just go about recruiting Stefan in 15 before he gets access to the band I guess.