a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I was survivor in choral 4. I Claimed day 1. I was lynched day one. I desided I wont do that mistake again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 1) I honestly though it would be good lynch for town and I needed to appear town for a while before I could safely reveal myself. Didn't really care about if I would look too good townie and end up killed by mafia because you know soon. 2) I though it was town positive lynch and feared that I would end up killed D2 because it. In other words I shitted my pants and tried to turn all the fault on Rapier to save my butt. Mission epic fail. 3) BPV PROTIP: If you are trying to appear "town", don't go making yourself a target for the lynch. Getting yourself lynched as a survivor is most definitely not a town move. You did learn not to piss everyone else off by insulting them, so good. Kay has finally spoken up, and Iris probably is busy existing IRL. I'll do this now before I forget. ##Unvote ##Vote: Rapier I haven't forgotten your early D1 actions, and you picked quite a bit on Sho, while ignoring everyone else. Next on my list is Core, for doing a good job of not having a steady opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Guess I'll ##Unvote too, even though I'd like to hear what Kay has to say regarding what I said about her. My next vote will have to wait for the time being, as I read people's wave patterns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Note that he counted the invalid votes. This isn't just a single occurrence. He does it again here, and he counts the unvotes as legitimate, as well. Yeah, so I asked to make sure... Naglfar, can you confirm whether votes without ## count? Would it count if I put down Vote: Kaoz? I know what you mean, so yes it would count. I would prefer you get it right, but as long as the meaning is clear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deliriyum Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 If you ask me, mafia are generally more likely to just give up if they're a lynch target. It makes sense - it's easier to assume people won't believe something you know to be untrue. 13th's determination to compensate for his earlier mistakes seems very townish to me. I don't think his change of logic is a scumtell, either. As I've said before, he's a pretty quick learner, and town or mafia, it's clear that he's putting at least some effort into this game. Nice catch, Kaoz. That was some flip-flop, care to explain, Core? I'm... not really happy with Sho's claim, his behavior was pretty strange for a Survivor - I can't see why he would take such an extreme position when it wasn't necessary. On the other hand, he has claimed, now he'll have to stick to it, so it at least makes him less dangerous if he is scum. Sho, clarify why, as a Survivor, you wanted to lynch Nightmare. Not why your logic was good or bad, just whether it was your actual reason for wanting him lynched. Then explain why you stuck your neck out by arguing about whether you should have wanted to lynch him. Besides that, if your role is anything except plain vanilla Survivor, claim any other details now. Not when a Watcher sees you visiting someone or something like that. Hmmm, how can I explain this.. I was happy that Blitz was being lynched, I suppose, and at the time I didn't pay attention to the votes being thrown on him. I was thinking about throwing on a vote but it would have been a half-assed vote like Strawman's so I decided nevermind. It wasn't until much later that I actually analyzed the votes and decided I didn't like the reasoning. Hence my late response to it. If I weren't a sane man, I might be pushing a case against Eclipse today for causing the Blitz lynch, but things have happened since then to further persuade me to believe she is town. I'll be honest, you guys don't want to lynch 13th it seems, and I'm having a hard time imagining Rapier as scum, or finding any other lynch targets. PROTIP: If you are trying to appear "town", don't go making yourself a target for the lynch. Getting yourself lynched as a survivor is most definitely not a town move. You did learn not to piss everyone else off by insulting them, so good. Kay has finally spoken up, and Iris probably is busy existing IRL. I'll do this now before I forget. ##Unvote ##Vote: Rapier I haven't forgotten your early D1 actions, and you picked quite a bit on Sho, while ignoring everyone else. Next on my list is Core, for doing a good job of not having a steady opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kay Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Guess I'll ##Unvote too, even though I'd like to hear what Kay has to say regarding what I said about her. My next vote will have to wait for the time being, as I read people's wave patterns. I'm not sure what to think of it. Didn't acknowledge a response of yours? You mean when you said you were tired of being expected to post constantly? I didn't think it needed to be replied to. Or did I overlook something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deliriyum Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 @ Eclipse's post(forgot to finish)- What exactly are you referring to by me not being steady? Does my statement above help clear things up at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 PROTIP: If you are trying to appear "town", don't go making yourself a target for the lynch. Getting yourself lynched as a survivor is most definitely not a town move. You did learn not to piss everyone else off by insulting them, so good. Kay has finally spoken up, and Iris probably is busy existing IRL. I'll do this now before I forget. ##Unvote ##Vote: Rapier I haven't forgotten your early D1 actions, and you picked quite a bit on Sho, while ignoring everyone else. Next on my list is Core, for doing a good job of not having a steady opinion. Im on my phone so no usefull snipping of unmatterful part. In my defence it was not intentional to become target. Also Nothing as horrid as waiting doctor to show up in hospital Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I suppose my opinion about who to lynch is ignored anyway. I suppose Im out of options I claim I am survivor. I have been so god damn defensive because, well if I could survive first few days I should have been on clear waters I though so I did everything I could to keep my life it was in danger. Other than that I haven't lied in the slightest. Thus I beg of you. Please let me live and I will do everything you will ask me to. Anything. I bet i just sealed my lynch. Oh well I was pretty much screwed already anyway ... ... ... What. The. Flying. Hell? You set yourself as scummy. You then manage to argue with Rapier, which inadvertently makes you seem really scummy. You survive today, and then you argue to the point of making THIS claim? That makes it seem like you're desperate scum in my eyes. In huge piles of crap, and so you claim something ridiculous. ##Remove from the game: Sho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Hi Im 13th and I like to Claim desperately persuader just to continue with desperate fool claim and then when that fucks up I claim Persuader again because Im totally out of options and when thats done I like to flame war a little. Also I definately don't judge people hypocritely Nice to see you too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Nice to see you too ...Ha ha ha. No, seriously, that seemed desperate and scummy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I was super hyper mega desperate during D1. Still not hypocrite btw damn straight Btw is ewan better as sage or mage knight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Seeing as half of the day is over, I feel like giving my thoughts on people again... 1. D4V3 (Rein) - nothing much changed from last time... decent posts but not enough 2. JB - hmm I feel like he neglects some possibilities at times, otherwise same as Rein 3. eclipse - I'm slightly confused why several people have her rather far on the town side of their spectrum, maybe someone feels like elaborating on that... I feel like she made a few good posts but also some that didn't look that great and it kinda evens out in the long run 4. Core - overall appears to be a bit unsure, coupled with his sparse activity during D1 it doesn't make him look too good 5. Bizz Snike - Bizz made a couple of decent posts before subbing out... Snike's contribution so far was apparently based on an incorrect assumption, but I'm a bit disappointed that he didn't double check this first (unless Naglfar and Proto weren't around at that time) 7. Nightmare - he seems level-headed to me all things considered, posts quality is ok... I'm curious what his proposed Sho lynch was based on, but I guess that's something for a later point 8. Kay - kinda in the same boat as Rein and JB... her final D1 vote makes her stand out a bit, though I'm not sure how meaningful it actually is 9. Rapier - I don't like him too much, simply because from what I recall 90% of his posts were arguing with Sho and I don't remember any other great contributions from him 11. Iris - post something or I'll "typo" your name next time ;/ 12. Strawman - don't really have much to say except that his posts seem overall solid 13. 13th - I'm still not entirely comfortable with his claiming order... his change in style is something to note as well as others have mentioned before 14. Sho - claimed BPV!Survivor.. I'm not sure yet whether I believe that, but I certainly think he'd be a suboptimal lynch today unless some new info is presented At this point, Core, Domu and 13th seem like suitable lynch targets to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Sho, 13th, if you two start spamming this thread with pointless stuff again, I won't be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Sho, 13th, if you two start spamming this thread with pointless stuff again, I won't be happy. Im sorry. I just couldn't resist the urge. You have to admit he should have seen it coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 damn straight Btw is ewan better as sage or mage knight? I prefer Mage Knight, but statistically, he's best as Sage or Druid. Summoner is terrible, don't use it. Seeing as half of the day is over, I feel like giving my thoughts on people again... 1. D4V3 (Rein) - nothing much changed from last time... decent posts but not enough 2. JB - hmm I feel like he neglects some possibilities at times, otherwise same as Rein 3. eclipse - I'm slightly confused why several people have her rather far on the town side of their spectrum, maybe someone feels like elaborating on that... I feel like she made a few good posts but also some that didn't look that great and it kinda evens out in the long run 4. Core - overall appears to be a bit unsure, coupled with his sparse activity during D1 it doesn't make him look too good 5. Bizz Snike - Bizz made a couple of decent posts before subbing out... Snike's contribution so far was apparently based on an incorrect assumption, but I'm a bit disappointed that he didn't double check this first (unless Naglfar and Proto weren't around at that time) 7. Nightmare - he seems level-headed to me all things considered, posts quality is ok... I'm curious what his proposed Sho lynch was based on, but I guess that's something for a later point 8. Kay - kinda in the same boat as Rein and JB... her final D1 vote makes her stand out a bit, though I'm not sure how meaningful it actually is 9. Rapier - I don't like him too much, simply because from what I recall 90% of his posts were arguing with Sho and I don't remember any other great contributions from him 11. Iris - post something or I'll "typo" your name next time ;/ 12. Strawman - don't really have much to say except that his posts seem overall solid 13. 13th - I'm still not entirely comfortable with his claiming order... his change in style is something to note as well as others have mentioned before 14. Sho - claimed BPV!Survivor.. I'm not sure yet whether I believe that, but I certainly think he'd be a suboptimal lynch today unless some new info is presented At this point, Core, Domu and 13th seem like suitable lynch targets to me. I'd be happy with a Core Lynch, for the same reason as other people like my lynch. I want to know which side he is on. He's the only one not giving me town or scum tells. Im sorry. I just couldn't resist the urge. You have to admit he should have seen it coming. I did see it coming, and I still think it was scummy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 If its not painfully obvious Im ok with whatever the majority desides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriemhild Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 My favorite is Mage Knight Ewan too, but Summoner Ewan is quite useful in drafts. I really don't like Druid Ewan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I need life, you get the the idea of what this is 13th, 2 vote, Sho, fRapier, Sho/, Snike Sho, 2 vote, Nighty, Rapier, 13th 13th/, fRapier/, Nighty/, JB, 13th Rapier, 2 vote, 13th, 13th/, Bizz, Sho, Bizz/, Clipsey Katy, 0 vote, Clipsey, Nighty, Clipsey/, Nighty/ Clipsey, 0 vote, Snike, Snike/, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I had 2 duels in dueling network and rapier is still writing his reply, better be good in quality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Uh, thanks, Nags. This day doesn't look quite as silly as the others, so whee. AND HI SNIKE~! Thanks to 13th, Rapier, and Sho, there's a lot of talk, indeed. It also means that certain other people who should be posting aren't. Of the three, I'm most suspicious of Rapier, for constantly bringing up Sho's shitty logic again. I'm not sure if I like Sho constantly defending his shitty logic. . .hmmmm. . . My case... Or rather, it was my case. I'd vote on Kay if I could, all this discussion made me forget to press the silent ones. Not even Bizz stopped posting from time to time even with her problems and stuff. This, I feel, means that Sho, 13th, AND Rapier are likely to be mafia. As my good Ducky has noted, they're hogging the spotlight with the bickering, which sort of minimizes the discussion about other players, and hampers the town's ability to unify. At the same time, their voting behaviour and tally seem to suggest that they are trying to pull a fast one on the town. This is what we would call bussing, folks. The trio are at each other's throats in order to make themselves look more town-aligned and distanced from one another to the rest of the town. This way, they can have a villain act as a 'clear', and steer the town to its' doom. The fact that those votes seem to be intentionally improperly formatted looks like an attempt to set up a stealth lynch scenario, in order to assure a strong role gets hung. tl;dr: The arguments are a lie. ##Vote: 13th This should've been done yesterday, after that fantastically scummy freakout. Today, it's even more evident by your apparently smarter play. GO FOR IT, SNIKE HOLMES. I can't even begin to tell you how lulzy your theory is. I'll only say that, if 13th is really Town, it doesn't make me or Sho also Towns. Then what? Will you go after us after lynching 13th? Your theory requires us three to be Mafias, but even if one's Town it would work. The same applies if 13th turns out to be Mafia. Guess what? You should bet on me. It was me who started all this Sho stuff, after all. And the only way I'd give 13th enough room to participate on our case would be if I'm a part of his group. I'll admit YOU never said it, but uh, you certainly quoted someone who did. I'll reply more in a few hours. I'm heading off for now. My post that implies there's a 50% chance of 13th being Town or Mafia yells objection to yours. And certainly it's easier to know that he's infact the Persuader. Making him prove his role would make us sure that he isn't a decoy (if he's Mafia) and sure that he isn't an important role (persuader is important, but not as a... say, Doctor or Roleblocker). I never said that the Persuader is not important. If you ask me, mafia are generally more likely to just give up if they're a lynch target. It makes sense - it's easier to assume people won't believe something you know to be untrue. 13th's determination to compensate for his earlier mistakes seems very townish to me. I don't think his change of logic is a scumtell, either. As I've said before, he's a pretty quick learner, and town or mafia, it's clear that he's putting at least some effort into this game. Uh, what the hell, Kay. Mafias giving up when they are a lynch target? This is so clearly wrong... Nice catch, Kaoz. That was some flip-flop, care to explain, Core? I'm... not really happy with Sho's claim, his behavior was pretty strange for a Survivor - I can't see why he would take such an extreme position when it wasn't necessary. On the other hand, he has claimed, now he'll have to stick to it, so it at least makes him less dangerous if he is scum. Sho, clarify why, as a Survivor, you wanted to lynch Nightmare. Not why your logic was good or bad, just whether it was your actual reason for wanting him lynched. Then explain why you stuck your neck out by arguing about whether you should have wanted to lynch him. Besides that, if your role is anything except plain vanilla Survivor, claim any other details now. Not when a Watcher sees you visiting someone or something like that. I'm not Sho, but think that way: Survivor needs to survive (obviously). Mafia kills people (obviously). So, yeah, in order to survive you must hit the ones who are killing (obviously). Besides, Sho's Sho (obviously). There's nothing wrong with his behavior. :/ ---- Well then, Kaoz ninja'd me once again and proved Snike wrong. Now that Sho's claimed, I'm the next target. Why? Because I've been arguing with Sho over and over instead of contributing. Except that's my way of contributing, if it isn't good enough or if it's nice enough doesn't count. Will you really lynch me because I'm a weak player? You waste your time with that. Instead, I suggest we focus on the silent ones: Core, Iris and Kay to be accurate. Oh yes, let's not forget about the ones who've been throwing fuel to the fire I and Sho caused, like... 13th? (although I get town vibes from him). The mafia's objective is to go unnoticed, not the otherwise. :/ My point is, they're escaping our notice quite effectively. And in that case, it doesn't matter if me/Sho/13th is Mafia or not. Based on that thought, I need to read Clipsey's summary again and see if I can find/think of something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I'm not sure what to think of it. Didn't acknowledge a response of yours? You mean when you said you were tired of being expected to post constantly? I didn't think it needed to be replied to. Or did I overlook something? I was just wondering why you seemed to ignore the post content and such. That's not very important though, the end day vote from day 1 is what I want to know about the most. 3. eclipse - I'm slightly confused why several people have her rather far on the town side of their spectrum, maybe someone feels like elaborating on that... I feel like she made a few good posts but also some that didn't look that great and it kinda evens out in the long run On my side, it's just a hunch, but I'm curious to know which posts don't look good to you. 7. Nightmare - he seems level-headed to me all things considered, posts quality is ok... I'm curious what his proposed Sho lynch was based on, but I guess that's something for a later point Just ok? Damn, I need to step up my game. As for lynch targets, I really don't feel good about lynching Rapier. I don't know why. Maybe I'm wrong, but uh...out of all the suggested lynches so far, I guess I'm most fine with Core, for that slip up he did. If anyone can convince me that Rapier would make a good lynch though, I'm fine with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Kaoz is suddenly scummy because Iris doesn't look like a frog, meanie. (if you two can talk about Ewan, I can tease Kaoz!) Here's some examples of an opinion, using our two hosts as an example: - "I feel that Proto is the best lynch today because he contradicted himself nine times over the course of an hour" - "I can get behind a Nags lynch because he's trying to get the watcher lynched, and I'm pretty sure the watcher is town" - "I don't want to lynch Proto because he's been contributing a lot. Instead, let's lynch Nags because all he's been doing is laughing at people who vote him." Here's some examples of attempting to look like you have an opinion: - "Let's lynch Proto because the cop said he's scum, and the cop, who is really obviously town, has been right the past two days" - "I'm fine with either a Proto or Nags lynch, (no other reason given)" On the other end of the spectrum is tunneling, which is focusing on someone while ignoring the rest of the game. If you want an example of this, see Sho's logic for getting Nightmare lynch before 13th's claim, or Rapier's constant picking on Sho's logic. Pretending to have an opinion and tunneling are two huge scumtells. My vote was on Rapier because of his early D1 logic against me ("I don't see anything better"), then his constant hammering of Sho. However, I see that Rapier just posted something really good, but I don't know why he waited until Sho claimed before getting off of his case. In light of this: ##Unvote ##Vote: Core Form a solid opinion, and stop being wishy-washy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 @Invalid votes: I was made aware of that just after the fact, but I'm not sure whether or not the mafia knew this. It still does look suspicious. Now, onto the more traditional arguments, especially regarding 13th lynch over Sho's lynch. 13th's dramatic 'improvement' ("I doubt vig exists before the first night comes in" doesn't strike me as very good.) really set off my scumdar, but it was only made worse when in the middle of N1, he started pushing for Sho's lynch-by vigilante. This looks like a bussing attempt with my above theory, but it also works with BP survivor in existence, as it doesn't get 13th shot. D2 rolls along, and he moves to the pre-existing Domu wagon, despite his various statements that he felt Sho was scummy. He persuades Domu against himself, and uses that as evidence of his trying to help, which it really isn't. Domu defends his persuade and claim here here, which really troubles me. There's a lot of wifom running around there. Then we have his sudden Sho vote after survivor claim, which looks like sheeping JB to some extent. I don't like it, to say the least, when he's been inconsistent throughout the game so far. That's why I sort of want to lynch 13th more. =/ Moving on, we have Domu trying to call my theory ridiculous. 8] GO FOR IT, SNIKE HOLMES. I can't even begin to tell you how lulzy your theory is. I'll only say that, if 13th is really Town, it doesn't make me or Sho also Towns. Then what? Will you go after us after lynching 13th? Your theory requires us three to be Mafias, but even if one's Town it would work. The same applies if 13th turns out to be Mafia. Mind the wording. what I said is that you 3 were likely to be mafia. That doesn't make you mafia, nor does it make sho or 13th mafia. Interestingly enough, remove Sho, and it still looks like you and 13th are buddying to some extent. Guess what? You should bet on me. It was me who started all this Sho stuff, after all. And the only way I'd give 13th enough room to participate on our case would be if I'm a part of his group. I'm going after 13th due to D1 and his drastic change-of play, dear. If you want, I can change votes to lynch you. ;) My post that implies there's a 50% chance of 13th being Town or Mafia yells objection to yours. And certainly it's easier to know that he's infact the Persuader. Making him prove his role would make us sure that he isn't a decoy (if he's Mafia) and sure that he isn't an important role (persuader is important, but not as a... say, Doctor or Roleblocker). I never said that the Persuader is not important. This was after Paladin!Rein rode in and called you out, and you admitted it. Bold: If you're going to argue technicalities, then you never said that. Otherwise, you did say it right here. Uh, what the hell, Kay. Mafias giving up when they are a lynch target? This is so clearly wrong... See Mitnala. I'm not Sho, but think that way: Survivor needs to survive (obviously). Mafia kills people (obviously). So, yeah, in order to survive you must hit the ones who are killing (obviously). Besides, Sho's Sho (obviously). There's nothing wrong with his behavior. :/ Survivor is third party. They can joint win with mafia, so they don't really want to stick out until the end of the game. Sho going out on a limb is pretty OOC for a survivor. Mind you, Sho is playing a lot like Anouleth when he isn't town, so he IS acting OOC. ---- Well then, Kaoz ninja'd me once again and proved Snike wrong. Now that Sho's claimed, I'm the next target. Why? Because I've been arguing with Sho over and over instead of contributing. Except that's my way of contributing, if it isn't good enough or if it's nice enough doesn't count. Will you really lynch me because I'm a weak player? You waste your time with that. Cut the 'weak player' crap. This feels like a rerun of CM4. Instead, I suggest we focus on the silent ones: Core, Iris and Kay to be accurate. Oh yes, let's not forget about the ones who've been throwing fuel to the fire I and Sho caused, like... 13th? (although I get town vibes from him). The mafia's objective is to go unnoticed, not the otherwise. :/ My point is, they're escaping our notice quite effectively. And in that case, it doesn't matter if me/Sho/13th is Mafia or not. Based on that thought, I need to read Clipsey's summary again and see if I can find/think of something. So basically you're attacking my theory, then turning around and trying to lynch quiet people/ 13th. =/ Mind you, I can't read Core because he always seems to be scummy to me. Iris is busy IIRC, so I wouldn't push on her at all. @BP survivor: I am le skeptical, but we could check tonight with a vig shot, should he exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaoz Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 On my side, it's just a hunch, but I'm curious to know which posts don't look good to you. Hmm I read her posting history a few days ago and didn't like it too much from what I recall, although maybe I'm just misremebering it... looking over it again now, it seems better, although have a few examples of what I didn't like too much. -The vote that got the Blitz lynch rolling, I've given my opinion on that before. It's not a huge negative either for reasons I've also already explained (see here). -She mentioned the Vig shooting 13th multiple times as well as a Cult earlier this phase... it just felt kinda weird to me... in case of the vig for example.. if she felt that he was mafia, why not lynch him? If she felt he wasn't, why should the vig shoot? Then there were a bunch of shorter posts that I felt didn't really contribute or advance our position, as well as the fact that she was apparently incapable of stopping the pointless 10 pages arguments (though I could fault pretty much everyone for this I guess). Look through them yourself if you feel like it.. click. Note that it's not terrible by any means, I don't think she's particularly scummy or anything, just not clear or close to it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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