Touhou NOCfia - Game Over

[Zkirsche]

your entire last post was spent exploring hypothetical situations with a tracker/watcher, who might not even exist.

If he has a ninja role then there is at least one tracker/watcher otherwise the ninja role is just a pointless troll and one which I do not think that prims would do. It's not really speculation but really common sense under the pretence that Blue is telling the truth, which is assumed as I was trying to get into his head to try and understand why he would claim ninja.

So I'll ask, did you think that Blitz is scummy?

He made the scummiest move, so I voted him. He wasn't particularly scummy though; he was simply the best vote at the time from my perspective/in my opinion.

[SB.]

If he has a ninja role then there is at least one tracker/watcher otherwise the ninja role is just a pointless troll and one which I do not think that prims would do. It's not really speculation but really common sense under the pretence that Blue is telling the truth, which is assumed as I was trying to get into his head to try and understand why he would claim ninja.

He made the scummiest move, so I voted him. He wasn't particularly scummy though; he was simply the best vote at the time from my perspective/in my opinion.

Yeah but rolespec isn't exactly going to help town lynch correctly at this point, is it? Also Prims' gave a godfather effect to someone in an Villains (an offsite game) or something like that iirc that they didn't actually need, since there was no cop. The op even says that massclaiming and stuff like that's pointless, so you're wasting your breath.

Kinda wishy washy, but I'll take it I guess.

[Sunwoo]

kirsche, the only reasoning you gave for voting Marth in your initial post is because he claimed a ninja modifier. Is there any reason why this alone makes him more vote-worthy than anyone else in the thread at this point?

[Zkirsche]

Yeah but rolespec isn't exactly going to help town lynch correctly at this point, is it?

I'm not rolespeccing. I told you, I'm explaining why blue might've claimed Ninja and what it means for us and yes that is very relevant and while it isn't helpful now it might need addressing when one of the situations (i.e. if/when a tracker/watcher dies) arises.

Is anyone really vote-worthy at this stage Sangyul? Even the slightest of inklings should be followed up this early.

[BBM]

What I don't understand is why it's scummy for Marth to claim the Ninja modifier in the first place. A town ninja modifier is basically like a town Miller in that acts to inhibit the power of another role. Let's say it came down to massclaim, and the Tracker said that Marth hadn't visited anyone at all, and Marth chose to out that he was a ninja at that point. Wouldn't you think it was scummy for Marth to suddenly claim at that point? It would be like somebody claiming Miller right after a Cop said that they scanned scum.

[Paperblade]

Yeah, if you have a role that obviously screws with info results like Ninja, you should claim it asap. Marth did the right thing.

[Zkirsche]

Ehhh I guess. He gave away that he's a visiting role though by doing so and that a tracker/watcher exists but w/e.

##Unvote

I have no strong opinions on anyone atm.

[Sunwoo]

Is anyone really vote-worthy at this stage Sangyul? Even the slightest of inklings should be followed up this early.

This is true, but it felt like you were voting him solely over rolespec and not over anything he had actually done.

[BT.]

Not a fan of "Blitz's trap sucks, VOTE". I found his revelation reasonable. kirsche (Kevin?) in particular seems to blow things out of proportion. Not a fan of the following response on top of that.

RE: BBM. I can see why people think he might be scum (a free way to devalue cop results - motivation found) but it's silly to pursue his lynch over that alone. Related, I choose to believe him for now.

Shinori's entrance is unimpressive. Weak vote, a few filler comments, about it. For example there's no capitalization on the knowledge that "Blitz is Blitz" to critisize / look at those who ignored that fact.

Update on Kevin: Using "casually missing important parts about my posts" as a vote reason is giving me pause, think it sounds town-minded.

Rapier's role is probably town. Prims has hosted a game with the same role as town before, just without the neighborhood revival bit. Specifically: Confirmed Town Insomniac who died on N1. ..Actually talking about this is useless because he's going to flip tonight. Just leave the guy be.

Interesting that SB votes Kevin off of his first post (agree) and latest posts (disagree - the "rolespec" didn't seem malicious at all). The latter bit makes me suspect that SB rushed an easy vote. Interesting thing about Kevin's vote, actually - the way he votes but then proceeds to discredit said vote makes me lean towards the rambling being genuine-ly town.

In response to the advent of Baldrick votes I'll add that my original vote on him wasn't random - I was interested in why he switched his vote (still RVS?) to someone I managed to get a read on early. (does not seem like a fake "I'll play along" scum reaction) I'm neutral~fine with this push even though I don't think his BBM vote was as bad as it was presented. (covered in the beginning of this post (second para))

Kevin, you say Bluedoom (Marth?) is voting you for stupid reasons. What makes his reasons different from those that other people raised, which are basically the same?

Alright then. That's good for a late-night walling session. (--apparently this isn't much of a wallfest more than it is a twitterpostfest, mission failed)

##Unvote Baldrick, ##Vote EssBee

Think I'm really not happy with his recent push. Don't see why Kevin's rambling is being presented as "rolespec" and "not helpful to town" as fuel for the vote.

And yeah, most of you don't know me, some of you do. Hola. Woof.

Other Qs:

I like what Shinori said about NNR

Why?

[BBM]

What a fun thing to find at the end of this 5 page trainwreck. Hello, nyo! I don't remember who you are since making people angry in Mafia tends to happen a lot for some reason. I dunno why. I tend to get angry too.

I would vote you but that would be dumb OMGUS but as usual my entry post is completely terrible so I dunno.

People tend to OMGUS as a joke in RVS all the time, so I don't really see what the problem with that would be. The fact that he chooses to specify that it would be OMGUS if he voted for necktie seems pretty self-conscious to me.

[Shinori]

There's also the fact that he chose to not even drop a vote at all. What about my vote was weak in your opinion BT?

[peener weener]

honey im home

anyway i was out most of today, ill try to be as active as i can when im actually sitting down but ill try to keep up with the thread by Goofing Around on my phone

sup babies <3

[BBM]

BT, why do you think Kevin voting Bluedoom/Marth for being a Ninja and then waffling on it the next post is more likely to be town than scum? It's just as likely to be scum trying to push something while distancing themselves from weak rolespec reasons as it is town rambling.

Kevin- Millers claiming tell people there's a Cop, so shrug. Besides, as SB said, false positives exist and we know Prims doesn't have an issue with them (though I do, grumble grumble).

[Zkirsche]

Kevin, you say Bluedoom (Marth?) is voting you for stupid reasons. What makes his reasons different from those that other people raised, which are basically the same?

Blue is voting me because I was being opportunistic and that I didn't give reasoning to my vote. The former is false considering Blitz only had one vote on him as far as I was aware at the time and I did give my reasoning (albeit it was kinda weak but again, I feel that it is important that I let my uncertainties be outed no matter how small) so both are false and are therefore stupid.

SB voted me because he thought my posts are padded and he doesn't like rolespec. The former is just a point of view on a post so I wouldn't call it stupid, I'd just disagree with it (which I did) and give reasons. Rolespec was pretty dumb though.

[Zkirsche]

Derp didn't see page 9.

BT, why do you think Kevin voting Bluedoom/Marth for being a Ninja and then waffling on it the next post is more likely to be town than scum? It's just as likely to be scum trying to push something while distancing themselves from weak rolespec reasons as it is town rambling.

Kevin- Millers claiming tell people there's a Cop, so shrug. Besides, as SB said, false positives exist and we know Prims doesn't have an issue with them (though I do, grumble grumble).

There's a difference though. Telling scum there's a cop is not really the same as telling scum there's a watcher/tracker.

Furthermore, by outing the ninja part if the tracker/watcher is scum then you've essentially said "don't bother tracking me lololololol" which may actually be pretty smart if the ninja thing is a bluff (in which case well played) but if it isn't a bluff he's letting the scum focus on people that will give them information. Like, there's no benefit to the town if miller stays hidden, whereas a town ninja can confuse scum trackers.

I don't think outing as ninja is as clear cut as you guys are making it out to be.

[BBM]

Just because there's a possible benefit to a Town Ninja hiding themselves, it doesn't mean that the risks associated with it don't outweigh those benefits. Possibly fooling a scum Tracker if they maybe target Marth doesn't make up for possibly resulting in a mislynch at a critical phase of the game.

[Sunwoo]

Well, do you think he is scum for claiming the ninja part of his role? Do you feel that there is scum motive in his doing so? I feel that you're making too big of a deal out of Marth's claim and blowing things out of proportion.

[Zkirsche]

I unvoted, what more do you want? I voted because I thought there was potential scum motive in it, and I stick to that. My recent posts are just explaining why just claiming ninja may not be the best thing; because while it may be the best thing, there are definite drawbacks, just like there is with any claim. These drawbacks made me question him as to why he would out, and that was answered by other people.

That, among other things which I mentioned and you might want to remind yourself of, is why I saw merit in changing my vote to Bluedoom. The claim itself was simply the straw that broke the camel's back as it were. I'm not making a big deal out of this at all, it's BBM who won't let this go by constantly keeping the conversation going like with "Millers claiming tell people there's a Cop, so shrug." In an attempt to end this nonsense I give out why I see claiming ninja is different to claiming miller. Then he goes and says that one should claim miller because the benefits outweigh the rewards which is clearly what I resigned to when I unvoted. I was happy to drop the topic at my unvote. I think people put more emotion into my posts than I do.

Now then, that should explain why I voted Blue, why I unvoted Blue and why I am still talking about my vote on Blue. Goodnight people.

[Grace]

so many posts and not enough focus

ugh i can't contribute anything productive right now (brain ain't functioning), i'll try and get something later (if I take too long, start pressure voting me or something like that)

[BBM]

It's mostly just theorytalk tbh; I'm not saying you're scummy for continuing to speak about it. In fact, your stubbornness about it actually made me sort of see BT's point about you being rambling town, because I don't think that scum would have kept replying back to my feelings about a town Ninja.

also Manix you're taking too long ##Vote: Manix

While I don't disagree with the reasons behind the Baldrick wagon, what I don't understand is why people are voting only Baldrick for it. Objection voted me for pretty much the same reason as Baldrick, and Strege also seemed to agree with the reasons, even if he didn't put down a vote.

[Sunwoo]

This seems fishy to me. How would this alleged contact come about this information? It would be in scum's best interest to spread false info that would undermine a cop's power. I doubt a vote: BBM's contact would be acceptable so I'll have to settle for

##unvote:

##Vote: BBM

In the post where he voted you, it sounds like he's more suspicious of your "alleged contact" rather than of you. So I have to question whether he thinks you're scum lying about this "alleged contact", or if he's suspicious of why you of all people were selected by your contact ... or if he's suspicious of your contact and not you.

[Bluedoom]

I don't have enough time to make a coherent post but I'm not exactly fond of kevin's push on me(consider it kinda defensive) but I think baldy's and Objection's suspicions on BBM's info is like trying to exaggerating a known fact(not gettin the right words to express my thoughts atm >_>) and I don't like that either exactly.

[Baldrick]

@BBM:

Noted. A role like that seems overly complex, but Rapier's role means anything is possible. The point I was making is that if you are scum, you are fabricating this so that the cop clears are less useful, and there is no such GF role.

@Boron:

If the contact exists, I think they’re probably scum. The simplest explanation is that the scum are putting out false information in a way that can’t be traced back to them.

If the contact does not exist, BBM is definitely scum. The only reason he could have for lying about that is if it’s a part of his role. But it wouldn’t be prudent to reveal that information immediately like an ascetic/PGO/miller because it doesn’t help the town. And if he’s lying about where he got the message, he’s likely also lying about content of the message. There’s no way a townie would make up something like that.

tl;dr in answer to your latest post, #3 is more likely than #1, but I can't follow up on 3 and 1 is a distinct and telling possibility. 2 doesn't apply to me.

@Paperblade:

I don’t have any reason to think he’s lying. But I can see where a lie somewhere along the chain of communication would help scum.

@BT:

Manix had replied, and I was greeting someone I know outside of mafia who I haven’t played with before. I don’t see how your read on him is relevant to my vote (apart from the fact that they happen to be for the same person). Also, welcome to SF mafia.

@Other:

I don’t think Nekorex’s atypical first post implies anything significant.

Marth claimed Ninja so scum know there’s a tracker/watcher. So what? In a game as large as this, there were likely going to be investigate roles, so I don’t see how confirmation helps scum. Like others have said, it’s better for a Ninja to claim now so that we don’t end up with two townies in a 1v1 later on.

[BBM]

Okay, I'm going to repeat this.

I can't quote the exact wording of either the message itself or what Prims said in my PM as it was given, but it didn't look like a message from a player. It looked like a message from the mod. Except it's not my role to get info from the mod, which makes me think that it is someone's role to give someone else info about the game in some way. I don't think that we can assume anything about the alignment of the person responsible behind me receiving the info.

Also, since this game's setup is probably similar to the Anonymafia and Trainwreck setups, I really really don't think that we should make alignment inferences based on the setup. As the OP in the signups states, his games have involved stuff like a mafia having a Jailer when town had no killing roles.

Finally, Baldrick, would you have preferred that I just keep the info to myself? Yes, maybe it makes us distrust all of the Cop's scans. That's something we should have done anyways though, because GF is still a pretty common role, so blindly Following The Cop isn't something you do in any game, much less a Prims game.

[BBM]

OK, I got permission from Prims to say this: the info I got was a role message, not a Courier message. ie it's pretty much modconfirmed to me that the info is correct.