Touhou NOCfia - Game Over

[SB.]

We need scumreads over summaries, and about the only thing I picked up from your perspective there was that "kevin's vote was dumb"

[Bluedoom]

don't have any (or whatever I have has already been stated in any posts I made today)

[SB.]

And I see Proto in IP chat, and not contributing. Wonderful.

[BBM]

Strege, just because Paperblade is asking questions of Baldrick as part of his suspicion, it doesn't make him scummy. Asking questions is scummy when they're blank questions that don't really contribute to scumhunting, whereas Paperblade's questions, from what I can see, are trying to poke holes in Baldrick's logic in voting me, which was the same thing that you were apparently doing with me, so ???

Objection, while being inactive doesn't help town, rarely does voting an inactive help town either. If you suspect that the inactive is reading the thread but simply not posting, your vote will maybe prod them to post, but if the inactive simply hasn't had the time to come and read the thread, you voting for them won't really do anything, because they won't see your vote until they are able to come to the thread, in which case they'll post regardless of whether you voted for them.

I know Xinny was really busy yesterday, and she doesn't normally lurk if she can help it, so I presume she'll post as soon as she can. As for Rein, you haven't played here enough to know this, but he's inactive in almost every game, so I personally doubt that a vote for him will achieve much either.

Kinda giving you a pass for inactive vote due to it being your first game, but I think you should try to focus on people who're here, even though it would be a cool repeat of Touhou OC Mafia if all the inactives were scum and town lost through through infighting.

[BBM]

Blitz's vote feels really easy to me. His ZM vote is more justified than Objection's Rein vote in that ZM has actually been here, but this is ZM's first game on SF, and jumping into a 24p game isn't exactly easy. I question that Blitz can't find anything better than that.

Looking through some of the lurkers, NNR and necktie ping me due to promising content and not delivering. I know necktie mentioned a few times over IRC that he was feeling in over his head, but even like gutreads are better than nothing necktie. NNR said he was busy/tired so I don't blame him a lot, but still.

Fera's vote on SB seems kind of weird because SB's vote came in RVS, so the reasoning for it was obviously pretty fabricated. What makes it more suspicious IMO is that in the same post, he points out things he found wrong with both Blitz and Paperblade, so voting SB for such a weak reason over that other stuff doesn't make much sense to me.

While Blitz did completely miss what Scorri was trying to say, I'm not reeeeeally a fan of how she posted just to defend herself from that, and didn't add any reads of her own. I guess it's easier to do that than actually scumhunt when you're behind, but it leaves a sort of bad taste in my mouth.

[BT.]

I'm gonna be super busy in the upcoming days (as of right now) so I won't be able to do that look-up I wanted earlier. Instead you'll get a bunch of skim-based thoughts.

-Don't do summaries in a large game. Don't do summaries ever, but especially not in the large game.

-SB how exactly do you feel about Kevin? You asked me about him but between your recent posts I can't tell. If you weren't voting Proto who would you vote right now? (did you even see my response?)

-Want to hear from Shinori.

-Don't feel strongly about Marth right now (either way). Slight lean towards town for all the role info.

-I just went over Baldrick's ISO and I.. don't think he's that bad. Don't get why him not voting is bad (don't see anything scummy there). He could use some solid analysis on his part but that's it.

-Strege's posts are big so someone will have to tell me if he's scummy or not. I'm actually pretty satisfied with the short bit here:

Anyway, enough of me baiting criticisms of defensiveness: Proto looks pretty scummy for having literally zero scumreads among his otherwise strong and well-thought-out opinions. While he's only made three posts, the third looks like someone avoiding accountability. Paperblade is also pushing people (good) without scumreads (bad, particularly when other opinions are present) to an extent that I'mma #Unvote, ##Vote Paperblade. Also I'm fairly concerned about Baldrick still not voting anyone, especially after he expressed a scumread in his last post (his ISO doesn't show a lot of those either).

-Interested in scorri's input after this underwhelming thing.

That is unfortunately it. Need more sets of opinions.

[Baldrick]

@BT, Paperblade

Mod-messages can't be really be faked, and if scum really had a role that provides mod-confirmed information to other players, they'd never use it because it helps town more than them. Hence why I don't think BBM is trying to deceive us.

@Boron

I honestly don't know where you got that impression, I haven't been suspicious of him for a while. You're seeing an agenda where there is none.

I was in a hurry before, and forgot to vote. Anyway, here's the much-anticipated vote.

##Vote: BBM's Contact

This must be a valid thing to do because everyone and their mother are telling me I should have gone about it this way. Why don't you come out and stop the speculation from interfering with the game?

I've got absolutely no scumreads, sorry if you're disappointed. Anything I could scrape together would be incredibly graspy so there's no point in that. I've read the thread so many times the lines are starting to blur together and the accusers seem more numerous than they actually are. I could wait until morning but I won't have any brainwaves and IME a longer delay only makes things worse.

[BT.]

Of the posts questioning Objection’s BBM push, Marth looks the worst. Rapier seemed genuinely confused about what BBM was saying, BBM and SB raised legitimate concerns about what he was doing. Marth just labelled it without elaborating or drawing any conclusions.

How is this not recent or an agenda?

I also don't follow your logic considering you just said that scum wouldn't use a role that gives <player> a mod message, only to vote the one who used it (thoretically).

[BT.]

Nevermind the first part, thought Boron was someone else.

Still, is that not a scumread?

[SB.]

Oh, right. Forgot to respond to that.

Oh that's not what I meant. I meant that NNR hasn't really given much to work with compared to others. Worded that badly.

You labled what he was doing as "rolespec" and voted him for it so... what else do you find unhelpful about him but not scummy?

If you'd take a look at his vote you would see that rolespec wasn't the reason but just a point of discussion.

Hard to explain why the rambling is town but see what I said in the recent post - I just think town is more likely to mull over that point in context.

I'm not attacking him for bringing it up - I'm attacking him for what seemed to me like a likely entrance post from scum. If others mentioned the same thing and I didn't attack them it's probably because I'm satisfied otherwise. (they're doing other things etc.)

I said it was unhelpful, which is why I voted him. Being unhelpful is scummy, so I did find him scummy.

It felt like the main reason to me just because it was the last thing he said before the vote, rather than Marth's bad reasoning.

I guess I'm not gonna sway you on this one, but I don't like it when people make wishy washy statements.

Would still vote for Kevin but Proto seriously needs to get in here, considering I've seen him on IP chat a bit, and Kay has too I think. Pretty sure he only popped up after Kay yelling at him in thread, too.

[Zkirsche]

marth that may have been a terrible idea to say that

also I'm still suspicious of Kevin, but at least he's here and posting, even if I dislike his content. Proto hasn't posted a single scumread period all game (same goes for Xin/ZM others I'm forgetting, but he also had pretty big post that said nothing of value)

Even though it might get me voted, I just want to say that surely a scummy player who posts a lot is more of a threat to the town than a player who doesn't post at all. The latter isn't really a threat, it's just not a potential benefit like an active player would be.

Voting inactives always seemed like it accomplishes nothing. Our investigators should simply look into them at night, while we fish out the active mafia members who will be sowwing seeds of malcontent.

Tbh in a fast paced game it can be very intimidating to see 3+ pages of posts crop up overnight, some with lots of content to read over. Speaking for myself as I am now, I am just trying to process pages 9-12 before forming strong opinions. If I feel something else needs addressing then I'll make a post later tonight.

[Zkirsche]

Also I never remember proto being a big talker.

[SB.]

Kevin, you misunderstand me. I've seen Proto around, but he hasn't been posting in the thread. He CAN provide content, but isn't.

[ZemZem]

Is there a list of who and who hasn't posted in the game yet? If not:

1. Baldrick (posted)

2. BBM (posted)

3. Blitz (posted)

4. Bluedoom (posted)

5. BT. (posted)

6. Essbee (posted)

7. Fera (hasn't posted (I could be wrong))

8. Kay (hasn't posted (I could be wrong))

9. kirsche (Kevin) (posted)

10. Laevateinn (Proto) (posted)

11. Liquid Snake (Reinfleche) (hasn't posted)

12. Manix (posted)

13. NekoRex (hasn't posted (I could be wrong))

14. Objection!! (posted)

15. Paperblade (posted)

16. Rapier (posted)

17. Sangyul (Boron) (posted)

18. scorri (hasn't posted (I could be wrong))

19. Shinori (hasn't posted (I could be wrong))

20. Stahlypin (posted)

21. Strege (posted)

22. Super Serious Gal (posted)

23. Xin'dy (posted)

24. Zeem (posted)

I generally like to do this so I can get a better look at who's playing the game, in a way. Corrections would be appreciated.

[Fera]

I'll post more about things later, something about Baldrick/Objection/Blitz or something when I have a solid thing built up. Don't wanna leave this hanging, though.

Referring to GMT+8 time because that's what my timezone is, Prims confirmed role PMs sent at 11am. The N0 post above it was edited at 12:04pm, presumably with Rapier's "untargetable" clause. Is there any possibility that Rapier sent in something that would make him immediately target-immune instead of having to wait for D1? Then again, I'd think Prims would make a separate post for that instead of editing the N0 post without notification. Just something I thought was weird.

@ZM: The list of names at the first post on first page are links to all the posts a player makes in this thread. Only three of those bolds haven't really posted.

[Fera]

Also removing my vote on SB because meh it was just a prod really, I didn't vote him because of the RVS post

##Unvote

[Grace]

okay going to sleep and just wanna clear some stuff up

@zeem: everyone has posted, surprisingly. just some more than others. so i have a question as well: right now, who do you actually think is mafia?

@fera: probably important:

Well, Prims gave me a lazy role befitting of my performance in Mafias. Which means I can't be targetted, lynched or killed, but I'll die this Night anyway because my role says so. I can choose to revive once in the next phases as an Insomniac, though. And I'm some sort of Neighboor as well while I'm dead, and I can speak with the players I neighboored even if I'm dead, though it lasts only for a phase.

tl;dr just wait until the end of N1 and we should (in theory) see him cark it

[Grace]

oh also baldrick not having any scumreads makes me go :/

[ZemZem]

Fera and Manix: Thank you both for the confirmation.

@zeem: everyone has posted, surprisingly. just some more than others. so i have a question as well: right now, who do you actually think is mafia?

Currently I don't have any idea who to assume is mafia, since I'm still trying to get used to such a big game. XD Though, I'm keeping an eye out for people like Baldrick who seem to be being voted the most, and I'm reading back some to maybe catch something I can note.

[SB.]

Even if it's something minor, you should definitely pursue any scumreads you have ZM, even if you're not totally sure on if they're scum or not. Fera's empty unvote doesn't fill me with confidence, hopefully he delivers when he comes back.

[scorri]

Yeah, ok.

[b##Unvote

]##Vote:Baldrick[/b]

Your push on BBM was based in nothing but role spec, you then dropped it when pushed about it and instead are voting for someone that you don't even know who they are and once again, even if that vote somehow does work, your view on them is still completely based in rolespec. Did you read the OP where it said that if we tried to use rolespec to win we would fail horribly? Add on to that that you claim to have no scum reads and, well, yeah.

Besides that, Blitz, I'm a little ;/ at you for your quick back off of your misrep of me claiming it was a misunderstanding turned into a reaction test. That's twice now you've claimed something scummy is a reaction test this game. Not liking you very much at the moment.

Will try and get some more stuff up later, but I'm going to be gone for most of the day today, so I can't make any promises.

[scorri]

##Unvote

##Vote:Baldrick

Fixing.

[ZemZem]

Even if it's something minor, you should definitely pursue any scumreads you have ZM, even if you're not totally sure on if they're scum or not. Fera's empty unvote doesn't fill me with confidence, hopefully he delivers when he comes back.

If that's the case, then I'll try to be more active.

[Xinnidy]

Well, having to singleman an RP for a whole day in addition to my normal schedule because everyone else was busy/hyped by SSB4 was the very hulk hogan...

My apologies to everyone that hoped to be graced with my presence past RVS, though I did warn the mod that I'd found myself out of free time to play this game until this afternoon.

Last time I've read the thread it was on page 5 so bear with me for a moment... or two hours. Can't skim for lyfe.

There's a lot for me to process, but I had stuff written down in a notepad, so:

- Two things stood out the most to me, the case about BBM's info, and the push on Bluedoof regarding his ninja ability. I don't really like how people reacted to both.

On Bluedoom's side, I'll admit I don't remember seeing a town ninja before this game, or how should they act, but the possible negative utility of a ninja role is a valid point, as far as I see. With that in mind, him claiming his modifier doesn't come as that odd. The pressure imposed by kirsche was disagreeable to me on the basis that information isn't as valuable to scum when they know who to kill and not to already, but I'm feeling a bit better as of this post, I don't like the self-aware mention of omgus at the time the vote on bluedoom was made, but I think I'm giving this the due attention.

Coincidentally, since I think it's safe to consider it as negative utility for reasons, I'm also outing that I have the ninji modifier.

- The BBM fuss doesn't fly (heehee, fly) with me for similar reasons. In the instance it's not fabricated, though it adds doubt, it's a guarantee, even if one that adds unreliability to scans. It's certainly the more useful thing to do rather than risk get the godfather cleared by accident throughout a good part of the game. Besides, if cops do exist, they'll know better than just assuming people clear without taking their play in account in a large game of role madness. I certainly think that if there's anything scummy, it's the amount of time wasted making a deal of this, however, I also note that Baldrick himself took enough flak from the event to except some content to come from him, so

##Vote:Objection!!

I can see his initial jump on BBM as a new thing from someone that is unfamiliar with informed roles or similar, but there's a bit else I feel here. I'm not aware of how much you know mafia, but, considering a lot of people jumped on Blitz for his trap (which, I'll admit, would include myself if I didn't see so many regular mafia players affirm the contrary), what made you think of it as not that convincing of a vote over or after BBM's info was outed? Additionally, out of the actually active people, what else do you find that could stand out as scummy?

There is one thing I'd like to address for BBM specifically though, and that is, if within the boundaries of your paraphrasing, how sure are you that this was info triggered by someone else rather than a random game occurrence?

[Sunwoo]

Oh boy, another ninja modifier ;/

So, new content that popped up since I was asleep: Marth's information is ... interesting, but do you have ANY scum reads at all? Even minor ones or nagging suspicions? Writing a summary makes it look like you're contributing when you're really not (plus you are not eclipse). Isn't there ANYTHING at all that strikes you as odd, besides kirsche's earlier vote on you? How about giving us your opinions on the things that you summarized?

Baldrick: I know you backed off BBM for the time being, but it doesn't change the fact that you immediately suspected his information and said that either BBM's contact or he himself was scum over it. That is what bothers me. Also, in this post where you say that "if no one else receives a mod message he will be suspicious again" it feels like you're trying to push suspicion on him in the future.

Strege: I'm still not sure what's making Paper look worse than everyone else in your eyes. Also, who are your scum reads now? You made a note of Marth in an earlier post, what do you think of him now?

Proto, TALK! We want to hear from you.

BT, who do you think is scum? Your post here is asking a lot of questions but doesn't really have any strong opinions. You're going to have to decide for yourself whether Strege is scummy or not. You can't let someone decide that for you.

(I will also be out for most of the day, meeting with friends. Sorry.)