Touhou NOCfia - Game Over

[SB.]

More coherent post after a shower (hopefully) but for now...

##Unvote

##Vote: Proto

Don't like that last post. Where are your reads, what are you doing about them? All that last post is is you explaining a bunch of null reads and if you believe something BBM said. Not helpful.

[Paperblade]

Why are you assuming that BBM is actually getting mod messages? If you think the info is fake it could mean he's, you know, lying.

Or is there something we don't know that you do?

[Strege]

rage i lost my post

again

I outed the info because it was info. It's not the most useful, yeah, but that doesn't mean I was going to hide it. Any info we know about the setup is good. This might be taking it to an extreme, but you can see how much simpler C9++ became as the game progressed and town got more info about the roles. And I'd say whether or not you think I should have hidden it is very relevant, seeing as you're asking me why I chose to reveal it. I want to know your motivations behind asking me questions like these.

A lucky mafia Rolecop could also have discovered who our insertstrongpowerrolehere is; that sort of discussion isn't useful. Also, wrt the Rapier thing, I quoted that sentence because it's very contradictory. In the first segment you say you don't see how Rapier is most likely town, and in the second, you say it's doubtful he's mafia.

NNR = NekoRex (he was originally NekoNekoRex).

##Unvote, ##Vote: Strege

I don't really see anything from him other than rolespec. And when I asked him questions about why he was doing it, he brushed it off. His play has just been pushing me about outing the info, without actually revealing the motives behind doing so, as in whether or not he thinks my actions have been scummy. The most contributive thing he's done is tell Paperblade to step up his content:activity ratio, and say that Objection is a little scummy for echoing. But it's a blanket statement that doesn't give any examples or anything of the sort.

Mmk, I see where you were coming from. The point of me questioning you was that I didn't see sufficient town motivation for sharing the information to outweigh the risks to town involved. When I said that what you should have done is irrelevant, I meant that there's no use having a strategic disagreement. I might not have done what you did, but I see why town!BBM would have done it and that resolves my issue.

Your point about a lucky mafia rolecop isn't relevant -- the action added risk for town. The discussion is useful because I assumed town!BBM would have considered it. My sentence about Rapier isn't contradictory; "clears" meant "confirms". Like I said, I spaced on the fact that he'll flip by D2 and I wasn't sure why people were writing him off.

I said what I thought of your actions. It's right next to the question I asked you. Inactivity is also a very mediocre reason to vote someone right now and I don't think my activity to worthwhile content ratio is below average either.

BBM and Kay are voting me to some extent because of rolespec, which I don't think is a strong reason because:

-My rolespec regarding BBM outing the GF consists only of me seeing flaws in his arguments and exploring the risk to town involved in what he did (which he would have had to miss or justify if he were town). I consider it useful.

-I was the first one to ask about Rapier, which seems like a worthy line of inquiry to me. I wrote about him in my second post because I felt cool and special for noticing the weird graveyard rules and wanted to point them out, then I added a bit about alignment (which is the only thing I understand you having an issue with). I just clarified my thoughts in my third post because BBM was asking what I meant.

-I don't think the question about Bluedoom in my second post is rolespec...

If you have problems with my rolespec, could you please be more specific?

Anyway, enough of me baiting criticisms of defensiveness: Proto looks pretty scummy for having literally zero scumreads among his otherwise strong and well-thought-out opinions. While he's only made three posts, the third looks like someone avoiding accountability. Paperblade is also pushing people (good) without scumreads (bad, particularly when other opinions are present) to an extent that I'mma #Unvote, ##Vote Paperblade. Also I'm fairly concerned about Baldrick still not voting anyone, especially after he expressed a scumread in his last post (his ISO doesn't show a lot of those either).

Xin'dy's ISO doesn't work (YO PRIMS) and the thread is long enough now that I'm not diving in just to find her posts. There are also a boatload of people who need to (re)start posting because, jeez, I have an armful of townreads and I'll admit not a whole lot else.

[Strege]

Cut from #200, for the record.

[Sunwoo]

Strege, what makes Paperblade a better vote than Proto, if you feel that Proto is just as non-committal in having scum reads as Paper?

Proto, who do you think IS scum? At the very least, do you have any definite opinions? I have to agree with Strege that your post looked looked like quite a bit of waffling or stating the obvious.

Baldrick, I'm still not satisfied with your actions. You were quick to assume that BBM's message was fabricated (for what reason), and you seem to be wanting to find reasons to see him as suspicious. I feel like you're trying to push more suspicion on him than is warranted.

[Grace]

brain is finally starting to function after almost a whole day of nothing, so post incoming

[BBM]

If the mafia want to kill someone who reveals info like "there is a GF", good for them. Considering everybody has a role, that's not an incredibly strong one. Also, if this is the case, and I were mafia, and one of my buddies was Watching me or something, and we'd learnt who this information-giver was, why would I then out the info? If we were then planning on killing this person, that would just tie me rather unnecessarily to the kill after the flip. I guess I could be just making the info up to spread distrust of Cop clears, but that can't simultaneously be the case with the info-giver also existing.

You say you're looking for flaws in my arguments, but I don't see any place where you look for scum intent, possibly because I find the idea of finding me scummy based on the info I received ludicrous. Answer the question without sidestepping it- if you had received the info, would you or would you not have revealed it? It's an extremely relevant yes or no question, not a maybe one.

I also never said that you were suspicious for having a low amount of activity, I said that you were suspicious for having little content. Your reads that you're giving are also pretty hypocritical. You're pushing both Paper and Proto for the same reason, that neither have scumreads- but neither do you, other than them. Or at least, not explicit ones. The bulk of your last two posts has been spent "questioning" my logic, but at no point were you voting me, or did you say that you actually thought I was scummy. Which is another problem, you keep sidestepping and being non-committal.

Additionally, I don't even understand the reasoning behind your Paperblade vote. If he's voting Baldrick and pushing him, presumably he finds his actions at least slightly suspicious.

[BT.]

There's also the fact that he chose to not even drop a vote at all. What about my vote was weak in your opinion BT?

Weak in the sense that it felt easy. I was unimpressed by Rexy's entrance just as much but there really wasn't much merit in pressuring him for it. Better to question questionable opinions than to question lack of them.

BT, why do you think Kevin voting Bluedoom/Marth for being a Ninja and then waffling on it the next post is more likely to be town than scum? It's just as likely to be scum trying to push something while distancing themselves from weak rolespec reasons as it is town rambling.

Kevin- Millers claiming tell people there's a Cop, so shrug. Besides, as SB said, false positives exist and we know Prims doesn't have an issue with them (though I do, grumble grumble).

It didn't seem like deliberate distancing, more like natural rambling. I see you come to agree with me on this later.

@Paper: It'd be difficult for him to pass on mod-messages. Unless he or one of his buddies had that ability, in which case I'm not sure why they'd be using it because it's negative utility for them.

I don't get this.

Points of interest that I haven't look at yet: Marth, Strege. That'll be for when I get back.

[Grace]

going through the thread from the last time i posted actual content, and getting thoughts down on that alone (might reread iso's later) and possibly some other stuff relating to wagons

so yeah bbm's situation wasn't such a big fuss and people jumped on it with questionable logic.

Nuh uh. It casts doubt on every town scan, which is more likely to facilitate mislynches than let a GF lynch go through.

but okay; assume the information is true. in that case, knowing that there's a gf means they wouldn't get "cleared" by the cop and could coast their way to the end of the game on that alone. yes i'm aware that it means town scans are unreliable but it means the gf can't hide under the pretense of being scanned inno and forces them to contribute contributing.

kirsche's posts don't read scum to me right now (if anything his posts aren't exactly the most clear but reading them right now isn't giving me scum intent behind them)

ninjaspec: it's done now and i choose to believe marth for now. i would have outed as townsided ninja-role- myself but that's my personal preference. that said it's not to say it makes marth town 100%, because roles could be either alignment. his content should still be part of our decisions. (on that note; if you think i'm scummy, feel free to ignore my proven role (SB at least confirms it, and maybe baldrick? don't clarify, it's not worth it yet) if you actually think i'm mafia and want to lynch me for content/etc)

baldrick stuff:

This seems fishy to me. How would this alleged contact come about this information? It would be in scum's best interest to spread false info that would undermine a cop's power. I doubt a vote: BBM's contact would be acceptable so I'll have to settle for

so okay my thoughts (finally): baldy took a huge logic leap and voted BBM... when the apparent source would have been a better target? the initial vote seemed like grasping, and baldy proceeded to continue to lay the pressure on BBM in subsequent posts which still kinda confuses me. need to reread him later but i'm not liking him much right now (even though i had a gut townread on him from his opening post/reaction to me)

strege: my bigger problem with strege over rolespec or whatever people are accusing him of is more his fixation in attacking/asking/whatever BBM to mostly the exclusion of everything else (keyword: mostly) until his most recent content post (here) and even then still sticks with that for half the post :/

also there's a bunch of inactives that i could easily call out right now (rein/xinny, looking at you in particular from what i remember)

in terms of my vote... well right now i'm going with

##Unvote

##Vote: Baldrick

mostly for his questionable push against BBM. reread may change the vote (possibly to someone else that i haven't read over in enough detail, I don't know yet)

if anyone wants me to look at something in particular, give a yell

[SB.]

where did my post gooooooo

Shinori wasn't voting NNR for his lack of opinions, but for his comment about not wanting to omgus. You're misrepping him BT.

And when did I say I thought the rolespec was malicious? I said that it was unhelpful, and I stand by that since he was voting Marth primarily off of rolespec over scummy behavior, and still hasn't put his vote back down again. I don't see how you see kirsche's rambling as town, mind explaining? He also seems pretty keen to shove blame for the topic continuing to be discussed over to BBM here.

Not particularly fond of BT's misrep on Shinori and calling his vote "easy" either. A vote being easy doesn't make it bad, and it's a pretty good point imo. Plus Shinori isn't the only one who's brought it up, yet he's the only one who's attacked him for it.

Not liking Baldrick either due to his earlier content (do you need another person explaining this) and because he says Marth looks bad and doesn't have a vote down but doesn't vote him.

Vote's sticking on Proto till he gets in here and does something.

[BT.]

Shinori wasn't voting NNR for his lack of opinions, but for his comment about not wanting to omgus. You're misrepping him BT.

Oh that's not what I meant. I meant that NNR hasn't really given much to work with compared to others. Worded that badly.

And when did I say I thought the rolespec was malicious? I said that it was unhelpful, and I stand by that since he was voting Marth primarily off of rolespec over scummy behavior, and still hasn't put his vote back down again. I don't see how you see kirsche's rambling as town, mind explaining? He also seems pretty keen to shove blame for the topic continuing to be discussed over to BBM here.

You labled what he was doing as "rolespec" and voted him for it so... what else do you find unhelpful about him but not scummy?

If you'd take a look at his vote you would see that rolespec wasn't the reason but just a point of discussion.

Hard to explain why the rambling is town but see what I said in the recent post - I just think town is more likely to mull over that point in context.

Not particularly fond of BT's misrep on Shinori and calling his vote "easy" either. A vote being easy doesn't make it bad, and it's a pretty good point imo. Plus Shinori isn't the only one who's brought it up, yet he's the only one who's attacked him for it.

I'm not attacking him for bringing it up - I'm attacking him for what seemed to me like a likely entrance post from scum. If others mentioned the same thing and I didn't attack them it's probably because I'm satisfied otherwise. (they're doing other things etc.)

[Strege]

Strege, what makes Paperblade a better vote than Proto, if you feel that Proto is just as non-committal in having scum reads as Paper?

Not much, but Paperblade's activity and pushing people without explicit reads makes him look a bit worse to me, and he seems more likely to respond quickly.

If the mafia want to kill someone who reveals info like "there is a GF", good for them. Considering everybody has a role, that's not an incredibly strong one. Also, if this is the case, and I were mafia, and one of my buddies was Watching me or something, and we'd learnt who this information-giver was, why would I then out the info? If we were then planning on killing this person, that would just tie me rather unnecessarily to the kill after the flip. I guess I could be just making the info up to spread distrust of Cop clears, but that can't simultaneously be the case with the info-giver also existing.

You say you're looking for flaws in my arguments, but I don't see any place where you look for scum intent, possibly because I find the idea of finding me scummy based on the info I received ludicrous. Answer the question without sidestepping it- if you had received the info, would you or would you not have revealed it? It's an extremely relevant yes or no question, not a maybe one.

I also never said that you were suspicious for having a low amount of activity, I said that you were suspicious for having little content. Your reads that you're giving are also pretty hypocritical. You're pushing both Paper and Proto for the same reason, that neither have scumreads- but neither do you, other than them. Or at least, not explicit ones. The bulk of your last two posts has been spent "questioning" my logic, but at no point were you voting me, or did you say that you actually thought I was scummy. Which is another problem, you keep sidestepping and being non-committal.

Additionally, I don't even understand the reasoning behind your Paperblade vote. If he's voting Baldrick and pushing him, presumably he finds his actions at least slightly suspicious.

First paragraph: the watcher/tracker scenario as I submitted it presumes you're town, as I stated.

Second paragraph: the scum reasoning for outing a GF is obvious. I didn't find the town reasoning as obvious. I didn't find you scummy based on the information you received (I don't know if you mean that scum!BBM would have selected different information or...?) You made a good point about endgame knowledge and I think I would have shared the information, particularly because I know I'm likely to get lynched/vigged early. If I had gotten that PM at the beginning of D1 instead of you and not had this discussion I might still be holding onto it though (see nexus!me from Avatar mafia) I didn't mean to sidestep the question; I just don't understand why it's relevant.

Third paragraph: I addressed my activity and content to activity ratio. If you wish you may use simple multiplication to discern my defense to your criticism of my amount of content. *Regarding hypocrisy*: I'd be surprised if I haven't said this before: *just because I do something doesn't make it not scummy*. Also philosophically I don't have a huge problem with hypocrisy (being lame doesn't universally devalue efforts to make other things not lame). I understand why you would see it as a contradiction, but my points against Proto and Paperblade are valid. My last two posts (and this one) have focused on you because you were saying things that I disagreed with or addressing me. My lack of other content is an okay point, but consider the perspective that responding to people is a lot easier than scumhunting and that my problem is more one of time investment (i.e. activity which I've addressed).

Going to bed now. I really need to figure out how the heck to play my role...

[Strege]

Additionally, I don't even understand the reasoning behind your Paperblade vote. If he's voting Baldrick and pushing him, presumably he finds his actions at least slightly suspicious.

Sorry, forgot the fourth paragraph. Paperblade voted Baldrick with a question in a way that he could retreat by saying he wanted an answer. Since then he's still only asking Baldrick about his assumptions about you, BBM, and not being explicit with his reads. Having one *presumed* scumread in so much activity is vote-worthy in my opinion.

[The Objection!]

Okay, so I've been reading the thread a couple of times, and nothing still comes up as 'surprisingly odd' right now.

There's one thing that I've noticed though.

Liquid Snake hasn't been posting much.

##Vote: Liquid Snake

Say something.

[The Objection!]

Oh and Xin'dy too.

Inactivity won't get us anywhere.

[Blitz]

sorry about that Scorri, I realized my topic was flawed after making that post, but thought I should bother you anyways (and not correct myself till you address it)

##Unvote

##Vote: Zeem

for being the perfect case of active lurking.

[Violet_Rain3]

Wow. Sorry about not posting since RVS guys. I don't have time right now to make a post, but I'll try to make one later in the evening.

[ZemZem]

sorry about that Scorri, I realized my topic was flawed after making that post, but thought I should bother you anyways (and not correct myself till you address it)

##Unvote

##Vote: Zeem

for being the perfect case of active lurking.

I have no idea what to throw in, honestly. I'm reading the posts and each vote that's being thrown in and seeing which person seems the most suspicious to me. Not really the best style of play, but hey. I'll try to be more productive.

[Bluedoom]

I'm gonna make a coherent post when I come back in a while, but ##Unvote ##Vote: Baldrick for now because he still hasn't care to put down another vote on someone.

Also I'm kinda curious by SB's vote switch- proto's post just didn't have a scumread in it so he needs to contribute more, I get it- but does that make him more scummy than kirsche? Did your stance on kirsche change?

[Bluedoom]

Oh I also remembered: I think BBM's info isn't really something to worry about and I think I'm inclined to believe him. I'll also throw in some stuff and say that my role implies that multiple kills happen every night but not explicitly,so my role could be a troll.

[ZemZem]

Oh I also remembered: I think BBM's info isn't really something to worry about and I think I'm inclined to believe him. I'll also throw in some stuff and say that my role implies that multiple kills happen every night but not explicitly,so my role could be a troll.

Judging by BBM's posts, I myself thought that he didn't really look too suspicious. I could be wrong, but hey.

And that sounds like...quite the role you have there.

[SB.]

marth that may have been a terrible idea to say that

also I'm still suspicious of Kevin, but at least he's here and posting, even if I dislike his content. Proto hasn't posted a single scumread period all game (same goes for Xin/ZM others I'm forgetting, but he also had pretty big post that said nothing of value)

[Bluedoom]

Eh I read the thread and even though we've gone past 10 pages I haven't seen any notable action as of yet. Yeah there've been some BBMs and Marths and Baldy's and the like, but we still need people like Zeem, SSG, Xinny, Proto, Kay and maybe others I've forgotten to post something coherent and you know, not just dick around(sorry I don't mean to offend). Especially Blitz and Objection, the inactive votes DON'T HELP.

SUMMARY till Page 8:

Summary time and coherent post incoming!

Page 1: Only noteworthy thing is BBM claims some info about one gf-like role exisitng and this info 'came from someone.' Paperblade makes a jokepost saying the source is real.

Page 2: Manix and BBM tell Zeem that GF is not as common a role on SF mafia as he thinks. Also, Manix gets modkilled and modrevived.

Page 3: Blitz finally causes havoc(Ily Blitz) and decides to rolespec and make some discussion. Kinda stupid but I think its kinda normal for Blitz. I suppose town RVS 'ends here' but we're still early in-game to really vote srsly. Blitz's theory is basically "Rapier's scumbuddies kidnapped him!" BBM proves it wrong by quoting the mod on N0.

Page 4: Discussion about policy lynches and Appeal to Emotion. Great.

Page 5:Objection agrees with BT and says there's nothing one can conclude about Rapier since he couldn't be targeted N0. Blitz is awful at reading apparently. All in al Pages 4 and 5 were a waste of my time.

Page 6: Manix quotes two posts of Blitz and notices something off about the intent in the two of them. Blitz admits it was a kind of a trap to see how rapier would react. Marth claims he has a ninja role modifier and votes Blitz. Baldrick is suspicious of BBM's claim of info- particularly the source. Why on earth is he voting the receiver is beyond me. Rapier claims a neighbour/tree stump version and votes Blitz. Kevin decides to vote blitz for his useless crap. Objection only NOW does he vote BBM, questioning his source, when he first claimed it at the FIRST PAGE.

Page 7: Manix still wary of Blitz, Objection more curious about BBM's source of info, Marth votes kevin because he thinks his vote is off, Paperblade complains about the Blitz wagon(Kevin and Rapier at this point) but feels they're not worth a vote yet. Fera feels the blitz trap was pointless, makes a point that he's suspicious of SB for voting manix since his action failed on him(wow I guess he did this sometime during RVS >_>) BBM defends himself saying as scum or even as a scum GF he wouldn't gain anything. He also says the message he got was not like a regular message from someone but looked like a message from the mod but he hadn't confirmed it yet. Then he votes Objection. Marth and Kevin get into a little argument where each of them justify their 'scumreads.' Shinori agrees with Manix about Blitz's trap being pointless but he's passing that off as normal blitz meta, looks like it. Votes Nekorex for sounding pretty self-conscious with his first post which happened somewhere in Page 5. Strege wastes a paragraph in rolespeccing, explaining what spreading the existence of the GF does to town. I'm inclined to disagree since info is still info and better with it than without, really. Also sustains his vote on Objection, and still retains a slight scumread on him? Kinda seems off. Finally, Boron votes Baldrick since she dislikes his reasoning for voting BBM. Oh and kevin votes bluedoom for stupid reasoning, casually missing info in his posts and claiming an atypical scum role modifier.

Page 8: SB disagrees with the suspicion on BBM and Blitz. He dislikes Objection rolefishing BBM and Neko's first post(claims its weird). Also dislikes Kevin's posts, saying they're padded and full of rolespeccing. Kevin defends himself and thinks his post is not full of rolespeccing, and SB counters the argument saying that him considering hypothetical situations dealing with tracker/watcher is rolespec and doesn't help town. Kevin, BBM, Paperblade, Boron and SB enter a discussion about whether what marth did wrt claiming his ninja modifier was scummy or not. BBM also makes good points about Strege's last post and wants proper opinions from strege and not more questions. BT thinks kevin's reactions in general are more town-like. He also decides to believe BBM for the time being and votes SB since he thinks SB's vote was a quick opportunistic one, I think?

[SB.]

Nice summary but uh, why do we need a summary right now?

[Bluedoom]

I dunno

I was bored