Grinding is grinding

[Narga_Rocks]

Since this is about "other games" as well as "general fe", I put it here.

Simply put, grinding is grinding. More lengthily (shocked it's a real word), sometimes it's necessary to beat a game, but most of the time it's just going to make 90% of the game super easy. Kinda like using jeigans at a casual pace but letting them bosskill. Is it weird to grind sometimes and rail against another form of gamestomping?

[shadykid]

basically another form of "x is only ok when I do it"

[Jedi]

It really varies from game to game i've played. Some games it makes it a cake walk. The others tend to fall between, I kinda need it, I semi need it, I really need it, and WOW I"M WEAK RIGHT NOW. I find haha

[Espinosa]

In many cases grinding just hasn't been proved to be unnecessary to beat a game.

But even with stuff like purposeful low level games, the player ends up grinding something else (like cash or skills that take time to acquire) to compensate for the levels.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Espinosa

[Jedi]

In many cases grinding just hasn't been proved to be unnecessary to beat a game.

But even with stuff like purposeful low level games, the player ends up grinding something else (like cash or skills that take time to acquire) to compensate for the levels.

Like FF9 for instance if you need skills off certain equipment.

[dondon151]

i thought this topic would be about when i rub my loins against a woman's butt

[Naglfar94]

Grinding depending on the game is quite necessary (plus I like grinding sometimes) but some games grinding does not make it any easier good example of this? Romancing SaGa some of the hardest games I`ve ever played no matter how much you grind things can still take you down since enemies and sometimes bosses level up as you do and the final bosses of them are nothing to laugh it either Romancing Saga 2 seven heroes battle?? that was a nightmare. And like Espinosa said you may end up grinding a lot for other things like cash etc. so yeah it helps plus it makes the game last longer haha

[shadykid]

FF8: where level grinding makes the game harder

[Shauni]

I used to actually like grinding until I started playing FFV Advance and wanted to get all jobs on all characters level capped. In games where it's not required I tend to avoid it since it's much more fun having to use creative tactics rather than outleveling a boss so you can kill it in two turns. That being said, I don't mind it if it's required as long as the requirements aren't too insane.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I played games that required these while doing something else, which is pretty convenient to pass time

[Snowy_One]

I don't think it is weird to grind and then ignore other forms of gamestomping, especially when you consider it's a case-by-case basis. For example, gamestomping in Pokemon by hunting down and raising a Dratini to raise up is entirely different than trading over a friends capped out mon. Not only that, but various games expect you to grind instead of simply play through them, at least for bonus bosses and the like.

[eclipse]

Some games make grinding interesting (FFT's enemies level with the player, for example. . .then again, the job system screamed "GRIND"). In what games is it necessary to grind to win?

[Ciarre]

In FF8 it's better if you don't grind or even level up, period. I liked carding monsters and not leveling up.

[Espinosa]

Some games make grinding interesting (FFT's enemies level with the player, for example. . .then again, the job system screamed "GRIND"). In what games is it necessary to grind to win?

FF3 comes to mind. Good luck beating the game without levelling and grinding job levels. I managed to reach ('reach' emphasised as my plan wouldn't succeed because of the RNG) CoD at 20-ish levels in the DS version, but needed to compensate for the underleveledness with maxed job levels on every unit's every used job.

Also, it's not an entirely bad idea to grind in FFT. You can pick up better equipment in random battles that away, and the storyline battler levels ARE fixed (at least most of them, not completely sure here). I have a save in chapter 4 and enemies are in high 30s while my party is in mid 20s. Some random enemy ghosts have levels not too far from my party average though.

[Narga_Rocks]

FF3 comes to mind. Good luck beating the game without levelling and grinding job levels. I managed to reach ('reach' emphasised as my plan wouldn't succeed because of the RNG) CoD at 20-ish levels in the DS version, but needed to compensate for the underleveledness with maxed job levels on every unit's every used job.

Also, it's not an entirely bad idea to grind in FFT. You can pick up better equipment in random battles that away, and the storyline battler levels ARE fixed (at least most of them, not completely sure here). I have a save in chapter 4 and enemies are in high 30s while my party is in mid 20s. Some random enemy ghosts have levels not too far from my party average though.

In FFT I got stuck near the end, but I never grinded and had decent jobs. I think I got stuck due to lack of skill, not due to any requirements to grind.

Another non-grinding job system game I can think of is ff5. At least the original. I never played enough of ff5a to get to the bonus dungeon thing. You can kill magic urns without grinding, so you can pretty much beat anything. I beat Omega and Shinryuu with no grinding. Even got duel + Magic Sword + 4 hit in more than enough time to demolish Omega.

I think I beat the original ff3 without grinding, but it was so so long ago that I couldn't even be sure. I don't think I did, anyway. Of course, the way jobs worked then there was no need to grind for jobs.

The main point, though, isn't about necessary grinding, as in nobody can win without grinding. It's about grinding to gamestomping proportions and then complaining that another unit (Titania) is too good.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Espinosa]

Player skill does play a role in FFT, as does the understanding of the mechanics and the AI, but there are Win buttons a player can press without giving it any thought, which includes Ninjas, Summoners, Orlandu and just swordskills period (Agrias can perfectly replicate Orlandu if given his Excalibur).

I guess with FF3 and other games, we should determine what grinding is. Should all random encounters be fought? If we can run away, can we run away from every battle? How much can we afford to run away to beat bosses reliably without glitch manipulation? Or if we don't run away at all, how do we validate two different runs, one played by a person with horrible sense of direction? One such person will fight more randoms due to spending more time in dungeons where he gets lost.

The last argument you remind of still doesn't make sense to me. Until now we've been told that (any) Jeigan sucks because the player puts their trust into him only to end up with an inferior endgame team. Now we're presented this tendentious idea that Jeigan sucks because he makes the game too easy. I think the only possible explanation is that it's been decided ahead of time that Jeigan sucks (for instance because we repeat the opposite and agree about it, awakening an inner tier discussion hipster in some) and the argument that support it could be any argument that sounds fresh. I still don't get the hysteria though. Jeigans are bad because they make the game easy, and LTC runs rely on Jeigans... but then LTC is bad because they force the player to spend precious time planning ahead, counting squares and calculating approximate risk of death and reliability? I think a certain friend of ours will have to come up with something new to keep us talking more about this in accidental and special (such as this thread) discussions to come.

[1% critted]

Best game to counter grinding: FFT1.3.

Story enemies level up as you do, and level up their gear as you level up your levels. I did the rookie mistake of getting to level 8 before dorter slums in 1.3. Now I was facing archers who 2HKO, and a Knight with 300 HP.

I finished the game by barely using Ramza and having two separate parties to level up. That way my gear was superior to the enemies or the same in due time.

Edited July 6, 2013 by 1% critted

[Narga_Rocks]

The archers that 2HKO doesn't sound any different from when I played non-grind. Almost everything 2-hit me except like my mages sometimes got 1-shotted and rarely I had a huge hp unit get just barely 3HKOd by some weaksauce enemy or two.

I guess with FF3 and other games, we should determine what grinding is. Should all random encounters be fought? If we can run away, can we run away from every battle? How much can we afford to run away to beat bosses reliably without glitch manipulation? Or if we don't run away at all, how do we validate two different runs, one played by a person with horrible sense of direction? One such person will fight more randoms due to spending more time in dungeons where he gets lost.

Even FE has this problem, though. When you have a kill boss chapter, is it grinding to waste real-time moving your other units to kill enemies you could leave alone? Consider all of fe6 and consider fe8. If you can Seth-rush the boss in 3 turns and simply move seth -> end turn -> move seth -> end turn and win, is it grinding to also move all your other units to non-required targets and kill them to max exp within 3 turns?

Similarly, if you are in an FF battle anyway, is it grinding to waste real-time and win it or should you just run away (hit end turn after only moving Seth). In the strictest sense, you HAVE to grind or you'll never be able to beat later chapters/dungeons because you'll be too underleveled. If we define grinding to be anything other than the shortest path (in-game and RT) to the end boss, it's pretty hard to do a no-grind run.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Soledai]

In what games is it necessary to grind to win?

Disgaea games... Virtually ALL NIS games

[shadykid]

The archers that 2HKO doesn't sound any different from when I played non-grind. Almost everything 2-hit me except like my mages sometimes got 1-shotted and rarely I had a huge hp unit get just barely 3HKOd by some weaksauce enemy or two.

Even FE has this problem, though. When you have a kill boss chapter, is it grinding to waste real-time moving your other units to kill enemies you could leave alone? Consider all of fe6 and consider fe8. If you can Seth-rush the boss in 3 turns and simply move seth -> end turn -> move seth -> end turn and win, is it grinding to also move all your other units to non-required targets and kill them to max exp within 3 turns?

Similarly, if you are in an FF battle anyway, is it grinding to waste real-time and win it or should you just run away (hit end turn after only moving Seth). In the strictest sense, you HAVE to grind or you'll never be able to beat later chapters/dungeons because you'll be too underleveled. If we define grinding to be anything other than the shortest path (in-game and RT) to the end boss, it's pretty hard to do a no-grind run.

I thought you could solo the game with Seth

[Baldrick]

I define grinding as backtracking or going around in circles, with the sole purpose of becoming stronger in some way, rather than directly making progress in fulfilling the objective of the game. Almost all RPGs require it, so it's just a matter of to what extent you have to grind; like someone else said before, even if you go without experience points, you'll be building up your strength in some other way.

On the OP and the thread beforehand, I'm not surprised that someone who hates Jeigans is fine with what is essentially turtling.

[Phoenix Wright]

In FF8 it's better if you don't grind or even level up, period. I liked carding monsters and not leveling up.

Why is it better this way?

[shadykid]

Why is it better this way?

enemies autolevel with you

[dondon151]

Even FE has this problem, though. When you have a kill boss chapter, is it grinding to waste real-time moving your other units to kill enemies you could leave alone? Consider all of fe6 and consider fe8. If you can Seth-rush the boss in 3 turns and simply move seth -> end turn -> move seth -> end turn and win, is it grinding to also move all your other units to non-required targets and kill them to max exp within 3 turns?

it depends on if your metric of time is real-time or number of turns

[shadykid]

it depends on if your metric of time is real-time or number of turns

speedruns>LTC