Etrian Odyssey 2 Mafia - Game Over

[Green Poet]

Green doesn't seem to know how I play, serious is boring!

After reading more of your posts... yes, I can definitely believe that. But expectations of your meta aren't exactly a defense, but more of the basis of a defense, and saying that "You should discount all the erratic posts I make because I'm an erratic person" is just too much of a catch-all statement for me to accept easily. There are others who do know you well that have agreed with me, as well.

Again, the basis of the read is the initial reply to Refa, which I'm struggling to fathom how it can constitute his main read... gasp! It's because there aren't any! Green seems to have spent his entire time agreeing with Refa and focusing on me. Who knew I was so popular?

The way I'm seeing it, Refa was actually agreeing with me about my suspicions of you, not the other way around. But really, does it matter if we both think the same way? And if you're implying that this makes Refa and I scumbuddies, why did you vote RD instead?

In any case, I don't see why having more people suspicious of you is a good thing.

[Shin]

Now, why would you avoid seriously defending yourself in such a position, and not give Refa a good reason to stop suspecting you? Just to get in some more shenanigans? At that point, the "what townies should do" speculation isn't truly speculation anymore.

I didn't feel the need to defend myself because to the vast majority of the game, including myself, the vote on Refa and later RD are pretty reasonable. RD had a hollow vote on me with delayed reasoning, which was later retracted.

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

I'm still not entirely happy with RD, but the Refa/Green combo is too strong! I've been most of what they've talked about this game. Green's vote is because "he might be defending Flan", yet he's barely said a word about my "scumbuddy".

On the plus side, I'm feeling fairly town about BBM. His opinion on eclipse is pretty solid and his reads are fair in general, I do agree eclipse has been awfully passive in her content, although I'm not sure if her recent activity is a result of RL or not. Her vote on Fleur still doesn't really hold, but without new content from eclipse I can't really cement anything further.

Scum: Refa>Green>>>RD>eclipse

No idea bro: Anyone not mentioned

Town: Probably BBM

[Green Poet]

Green's vote is because "he might be defending Flan", yet he's barely said a word about my "scumbuddy".

Oh, I've stopped pressing that mainly because Flan really isn't the basis of my suspicions regarding you anymore, and because I've heard that Flan's been banned for a number of days. Obviously, it'd be impolite to make a case against him now, and I doubt I could if I wanted to, with such a scarcity of recent content from him because of said ban.

On the plus side, I'm feeling fairly town about BBM. His opinion on eclipse is pretty solid and his reads are fair in general, I do agree eclipse has been awfully passive in her content, although I'm not sure if her recent activity is a result of RL or not. Her vote on Fleur still doesn't really hold, but without new content from eclipse I can't really cement anything further.

Agreed. BBM is a solid townread for me right now, along with Refa and Fleur.

[FleurDeGlace]

@Sangyul: I think you should explicitly state what you don't agree about Refa's post instead of nitpicking at his word choices. Refa using "vibes" is just as bad as Shinori stating that one of Refa or Shark Bait is scum based on his gut feeling and I don't see you pointing out Shinori's usage of that word.

Also, we vote players for scummy play and not scum intent. Scum would not show "scum intent" at all because if they do, it would be extremely obvious that they are the scum team. Rather, they hide their intent and try to post in the capacity of a town player. It is through scummy play (contradictions and slip ups) that we are able to deduce who the scum are. There is not a need to prove scum intent in my opinion.

That does not mean that Green is necessarily right in his arguments. I think that Green is being too wishy-washy about his eclipse read. He's using others' reasons (from BigBadMeteor, kirsche, Refa and I) to justify his case against eclipse and his stance switches often as he's questioned. Not necessarily scummy but it is something I want to keep an eye on.

[Shin]

After reading more of your posts... yes, I can definitely believe that. But expectations of your meta aren't exactly a defense, but more of the basis of a defense, and saying that "You should discount all the erratic posts I make because I'm an erratic person" is just too much of a catch-all statement for me to accept easily. There are others who do know you well that have agreed with me, as well.

The way I'm seeing it, Refa was actually agreeing with me about my suspicions of you, not the other way around. But really, does it matter if we both think the same way? And if you're implying that this makes Refa and I scumbuddies, why did you vote RD instead?

In any case, I don't see why having more people suspicious of you is a good thing.

I'm not saying silliness excuses me at all, but using it as a major piece of evidence doesn't really hold much water.

With the agreeing with Refa, I mean the RD vote specifically about him suspecting me rather than the Flan thing too. It was there where he seemed rather unsure. Plus, my RD vote would have to come first for you two to consider me scummy for the RD vote! Dat chain of events! Scum tend to follow up with their buddies' ideas, it's kinda how they get people mislynched, and you two seem to be coordinating it pretty well.

The land which is known as Shin's bed calls! I'll try and say something deep and profound in the morning!

[Shin]

Oh, I've stopped pressing that mainly because Flan really isn't the basis of my suspicions regarding you anymore, and because I've heard that Flan's been banned for a number of days. Obviously, it'd be impolite to make a case against him now, and I doubt I could if I wanted to, with such a scarcity of recent content from him because of said ban.

Rage, stoopid new posts whilst I type mine. I guess we'll have to wait for a sub, I actually don't have an opinion on Flan. Literally all he had was RVS.

[Sunwoo]

@Sangyul: I think you should explicitly state what you don't agree about Refa's post instead of nitpicking at his word choices. Refa using "vibes" is just as bad as Shinori stating that one of Refa or Shark Bait is scum based on his gut feeling and I don't see you pointing out Shinori's usage of that word.

Also, we vote players for scummy play and not scum intent. Scum would not show "scum intent" at all because if they do, it would be extremely obvious that they are the scum team. Rather, they hide their intent and try to post in the capacity of a town player. It is through scummy play (contradictions and slip ups) that we are able to deduce who the scum are. There is not a need to prove scum intent in my opinion.

I DID explicitly state what I don't agree about Refa's posts, please go back and read my post. I think his (and Green's) cases on Shin are shit because I feel that there is no merit to their suspicions and they're making a big deal about nothing. End of story.

As for Shinori using "gut reads", note something important about his posts. He's not voting Refa or SB on the basis of "gut reads". Refa, on the other hand, is voting Shin and trying to use "Semi-Precious vibes" as one justification for his vote.

On scum intent, please realize that townies do not play perfectly nor do all scum play obviously scummily. Sometimes, you will have to think about whether a townie's "less than ideal" action had scum intent or not. Like Strege, from the most recent game, Inception mafia, who shot a null read over his scum reads on the basis that he could push his scum reads during the day, and he thought scum would vote park on the guy he shot in later phases. It was a terrible shot, but Strege flipped town. If actual townies had looked for the scum intent in his posts, they would've found none. (And kirsche, you and I were scum in that game so what we think doesn't really count for this example.)

[Green Poet]

That does not mean that Green is necessarily right in his arguments. I think that Green is being too wishy-washy about his eclipse read. He's using others' reasons (from BigBadMeteor, kirsche, Refa and I) to justify his case against eclipse and his stance switches often as he's questioned. Not necessarily scummy but it is something I want to keep an eye on.

Sure, I can see how one would say that my opinions have been largely influenced by others' reads. If I think that their reasons agree with my (limited) intuition, then of course I'll state that I think similarly, like I have with some of your posts. I do think it's likely that eclipse is scum, based off of what I've currently seen, and wouldn't say that this thought is "wishy-washy."

As for my hesitancy/stance-switching: the only time I recall doing this was wrt the initial Shin/Flan timestamp thing... which yet again brings into question of if your impression of my scuminess is dependent on me actually being scum, or just inexperienced.

On a less relevant note, I don't really mind being referred to as "he," but it was slightly confusing at first. For future reference and clarity's sake, when I need to refer to others with pronouns, I'll just use the gender as indicated by their profile.

[FleurDeGlace]

##Vote: Refa

I think he's making a big deal out of whatever Shin had done to make it look like it's scummy when it's really not. Throwing around terms like "refuge" in audacity don't make your case look better, it looks like it's trying too hard to make a big deal out of nothing. Also, if his RVS play is giving you "Semi-Precious" vibes, what is giving you those vibes and what is he doing that is different from town games? I'm sorry, but "vibes" is such a vague term that can be used to stand in for whatever case you want to make in the future so you can say "but I had suspicion on them before" and I'm not buying it if you're not going to explain it further. I don't think Shin's RD vote was without explanation, nor do I find it bad. I would also like to know why his vote on Poly was so terrible.

tl;dr Refa is blowing whatever Shin did out of proportion and making a whole lot of nothing into the scummiest thing ever. Don't like.

I'm sorry, but most of your "case" was made up from nitpicking Refa's word choices.

I wanted reasons for your case on Refa that had nothing to do with his word choices.

[FleurDeGlace]

I'm leaving home now. Will deal with all the queries slowly from my phone and be back home by tonight, I hope.

[Sunwoo]

And the parts that are not bolded still stand as a valid reason as to why my vote is on Refa. I'm sorry, but ff you need an even simpler explanation, then try to follow along.

1) I don't feel that whatever Shin was doing was scummy. At worst, he is null to me.

2) I don't agree with what Refa said about Shin.

3) I feel that Refa is taking Shin's actions, which I didn't see as scummy, and making them out to be the WORST THING EVER.

4) I think this is bad, because Refa is exaggerating what actually happened to make it look like it's the WORST THING EVER. I also think it's scummy when people try to make a big deal out of something that isn't.

And why do you think that Refa's "case" on Shin has such merit?

[FleurDeGlace]

Oh, and I just realised that Gender is listed right there. Sorry to Refa, eclipse and Green Poet for the gender confusion.

[Sunwoo]

(Also, sorry if my last post sounded a bit condescending, Fleur, didn't mean it to come off that way.)

[FleurDeGlace]

And the parts that are not bolded still stand as a valid reason as to why my vote is on Refa. I'm sorry, but ff you need an even simpler explanation, then try to follow along.

1) I don't feel that whatever Shin was doing was scummy. At worst, he is null to me.

2) I don't agree with what Refa said about Shin.

3) I feel that Refa is taking Shin's actions, which I didn't see as scummy, and making them out to be the WORST THING EVER.

4) I think this is bad, because Refa is exaggerating what actually happened to make it look like it's the WORST THING EVER. I also think it's scummy when people try to make a big deal out of something that isn't.

And why do you think that Refa's "case" on Shin has such merit?

1) Valid point.

2) Valid point.

3) This point in your case was arrived at from nitpicking Refa's word choices ("refuge" in audacity)

4) Almost the same point as 3) but derived in the same way.

I am focusing more on your case towards Refa and not on Refa's case against Shun in my line of questioning.

I am more intrigued by the fact that your case against Refa was derived mainly from his word choices in his case against Shin rather than his actions.

[Sunwoo]

1) Valid point.

2) Valid point.

3) This point in your case was arrived at from nitpicking Refa's word choices ("refuge" in audacity)

4) Almost the same point as 3) but derived in the same way.

I am focusing more on your case towards Refa and not on Refa's case against Shun in my line of questioning.

I am more intrigued by the fact that your case against Refa was derived mainly from his word choices in his case against Shin rather than his actions.

If you honestly think my case on Refa has no merit because it's "derived mainly from his word choices in his cases" and not "his actions", all I have to say is .

Is it really so hard to understand that Refa's "word choices" COUNT as his actions? That I feel that he is using words to make something seem worse than it really is, and that the act of throwing around pretty terminology to explain his suspicions COUNT as his actions? Like ... I don't even fucking know what to say to you anymore.

[BBM]

I realized I'd been skimming Refa's Shin case because everyone is posting so many words, and on first glance, I kind of have to agree with Boron. This is Refa's initial justification for the Shin vote:

"Shin's vote is a bad vote because it feels like a refuge in audacity (thanks Prims, I'll never get that trope out of my head now...). I call him out on being reactionary, so he responds by making an obviously reactionary vote on me. There's no way scum would be so obvious...right? Also his RVS shenanigans are giving me Semi-Precious vibes."

His reasoning is basically that Shin was WIFOMing by doing something that's very obviously "scummy". But why is he WIFOMing? What suggests that it's WIFOM rather than just a joke that's null of alignment? And the SP vibes thing is just out of nowhere and he elaborates on it as Shin doing sillier things in RVS as scum but I'm pretty sure Shin is just always silly in RVS. And I looked through the rest of Refa's ISO and... that's literally the majority of it. He says that he talked about why Shin's RD vote was bad, but all Refa says is that his own reasoning for finding RD scummy is different from Shin's justification. That's well and good, but that doesn't make Shin's vote weak by itself.

What also pings me is that Boron isn't defending Shin- she's attacking Refa's case on Shin, which is maybe chainsaw defence, but certainly not the white-knighting that Refa is implying, and the way it's worded seems like Refa is trying to twist it back onto Boron, which I don't like either.

Will get to some other posts after dinner.

[FleurDeGlace]

And the parts that are not bolded still stand as a valid reason as to why my vote is on Refa. I'm sorry, but ff you need an even simpler explanation, then try to follow along.

If you honestly think my case on Refa has no merit because it's "derived mainly from his word choices in his cases" and not "his actions", all I have to say is .

Is it really so hard to understand that Refa's "word choices" COUNT as his actions? That I feel that he is using words to make something seem worse than it really is, and that the act of throwing around pretty terminology to explain his suspicions COUNT as his actions?

That's a really quick jump from confidence that you had reads that did not come from nitpicking on word choices to sensitivity over my calling you out over word choices.

I did not say that your case had no merit, I just felt that to vote someone over word choices when you had an actual case on someone else (Radiant Dragon) is weird and possibly scummy.

Spoken words have less tone over the internet due to the myriad of tones that the same words can be interpreted as so I generally don't like it when too much of a case is based off of such word choices.

((Pardon me if I might sound harsh. I'm not really meaning to sound too harsh.))

[FleurDeGlace]

@Sangyul: BigBadMarshmallow's case is a better phrased case that does not stem mainly from disliking Refa's word choices.

[Sunwoo]

That's a really quick jump from confidence that you had reads that did not come from nitpicking on word choices to sensitivity over my calling you out over word choices.

I did not say that your case had no merit, I just felt that to vote someone over word choices when you had an actual case on someone else (Radiant Dragon) is weird and possibly scummy.

Excuse me, but that was me facepalming at your apparent stupidity and just being done saying the same things over and over again to someone that doesn't understand it. I like how you're trying to misinterpret my words to your benefit, which is scummy.

I dropped my vote on RD partly because he had retracted the issue that made me vote him in the first place (although he is not completely off the hook, I just don't find him as bad right now) and because I feel that Refa is worse.

Look, if you honestly can't get why the fuck I voted Refa and if you think it's "weird" and that I'm only voting him on "word choices" that's your problem and I'm done explaining this to someone who's not going to understand what I am saying even if I explain it 1000 times.

[BBM]

Hmm, yeah, I think I like this better: ##Unvote, ##Vote: Refa.

Still not sure about RD though. His SB vote feels weak. SB has made so many posts and RD's entire case is off a contradiction between two of them and supposed buddying between SB and Fleur. If RD really had conviction in the contradiction he found, I feel like he would be trying to bolster it through an analysis of SB's other posts, which he isn't. And the "buddying" is one-sided and on Fleur's side. If Fleur abruptly dropping her case on RD to wagon Eclipse with SB is so bad, then why isn't he voting Fleur instead of SB? After all, scum can also wagon people with other townies. It's the person that's wagoning that's scum more often than the person who actually started the wagon.

[FleurDeGlace]

I DID explicitly state what I don't agree about Refa's posts, please go back and read my post. I think his (and Green's) cases on Shin are shit because I feel that there is no merit to their suspicions and they're making a big deal about nothing. End of story.

My bad, replace the first quote from the second last post I made with this quote. Took the wrong quote.

I am not misinterpreting anything. I agree that there is nothing more to be said on the matter. Our points differ and I can see that we are likely not to agree even if we continue the discussion.

[FleurDeGlace]

@BigBadMarshmallow: I agree that wagoners are worse than the people who started the wagons. However, this is situational in my opinion. For example, what if voter 1 votes for voter 3 without a legit case while voter 2 votes for voter 3 with a strong case?

However, in this scenario, I'd like to see Radiant Dragon committing more on either one of his cases (Shin, Shark Bait or me).

It does not seem like eclipse is going to reply soon so I'll

##Unvote

##Vote: Radiant Dragon

for now.

[Grace]

Votals The Second

Refa (3): Sangyul, Shin, BBM

SB (2): Elieson, Radiant Dragon

eclipse (2): SB, kirsche

Shin (2): Green Poet, Refa

Radiant Dragon (1): FleurDeGlace

FleurDeGlace (1): eclipse

Xinnidy (1): scorri

BBM (1): Flan

Green Poet (1): Xinnidy

Not Voting (2): Kopfjager, Shinori

There are 44 hours and 31 minutes left in the phase. With 16 alive, it takes 9 to hammer and 5 to lynch at deadline.

[Sunwoo]

I am not misinterpreting anything. I agree that there is nothing more to be said on the matter. Our points differ and I can see that we are likely not to agree even if we continue the discussion.

Clearly you ARE misinterpreting something because what you are seeing is NOT what I'm trying to get across. I apologize for the extreme rudeness of the last post, but you are seriously just ANGERING me right now because I think YOU'RE the one nitpicking at words. I EXPLAINED to you repeatedly that I thought Refa was making a bigger deal out of Shin's post than I felt was warranted, and that I find people blowing small things out of proportion so they looked like the SCUMMIEST THING EVER to be scummy.

I didn't arrive at my Refa case "just" through word choice. I feel that what he was doing, blowing things out of proportion, had scum intent because scum WANT to make other people's actions look TERRIBAD. Because they want to lynch townies and have a case that looks "legitimate" so when the townie flips town they don't look bad. I think voting and using "vibes" as an explanation for finding someone scummy without further explanation on why those vibes are there is bad because it lets you express suspicion of someone without actually saying why, and people can't argue against ~vibes~ because there's nothing substantial to argue against.

FoS on Fleur because this behavior just has no town benefit at all and looks like you're doing something when you're accomplishing a whole lot of nothing.

[FleurDeGlace]

No, I think this is important because you contradicted yourself. If you had explicitly stated what you disliked about Refa's point like BigBadMarshmallow had, it would not have pinged me. The posts I quoted showed a switch in stance from "I had non-word-choice arguments" to "So what if my arguments came mainly from word choices?". I did not say your points came "just" from word choices, I said "mainly". You had other reads which I felt were stronger which was why I felt it weird that you'd vote for Refa like that.