Etrian Odyssey 2 Mafia - Game Over

[Refa]

Saving most of my comments for the ISO's to save you guys another enormous quote block (as opposed to a moderately sized quoteblock), but putting things here that really stick out to me.

Okay... Hefty argument already ongoing on day 1, nothing unusual...

Vote-flinging... nothing unusual either...

I haven't played for so long that so I don't trust myself to "analyze" things at this point, just gonna go with gut feelings, since a lynch on day 1, even misdirected, is better than a NL.

Vote: Radiant Dragon

Is noone else bothered by this? I don't care that it's lazy. Town can be lazy. But like, how can he see that whole interchange between me and Shin and have NO strong opinions whatsoever? Like what, this is so apathetic I don't even. And then the bolded is kind of bothering me as well. Feels like he's expecting a mislynch.

That's a rather convenient dismissal. The defense of your most recent post is the same as the last one, that I'm blindly following cases against yourself and eclipse. I've addressed both of these concerns, and a "that doesn't really go anywhere" response doesn't prompt me to attempt to explain again.

Sort of suspicious about Kopfjager right now. It's entirely possible that, and understandable if, he simply hasn't been able to commit much time to the game. But his inactivity is still scummy, and his rather random RD vote doesn't convince me yet.

That being said, I think I'm going to

##Unvote

##Vote: eclipse

Perhaps my perception of eclipse's meta isn't accurate, but judging from the fact that she's an SF mod, I would reason that she's more inherently much more likely than Kopfjager to post. That, and her "I won't post until the rest of you contribute" disclaimer seems like a convenient excuse for scum to lurk.

I'd like to maximize the chance that one of my scumreads is lynched D1, and I feel that this would be much more likely to happen wrt eclipse rather than Shin. Still not abandoning my Shin case, though, as much as he repeats that it's insubstantial.

OK, this post doesn't jive with me. First she calls Shin's comment a convenient dismissal. OK, I can see why she'd think that. Then a suspicion of Kopfjager, which is actually bad because inactivity is not a scum tell (or are you calling a good deal of the player base scum). And then the eclipse vote is so...contrived. Like just because she's a mod doesn't mean she should be more active...

Meh, I'll need to ISO Green Poet. Wasn't really bothered by her before (probably because confirmation bias, if someone agrees with me I think they're less likely to be scum...it's not a good trait, really), though, but her content now is...I'll leave it for the ISO.

Honestly gut is telling me BBM is scum but dunno there I'm too lazy to worry about going into a case on him as I feel like SB is a bigger target.

Honestly, I have the same thoughts WRT BBM. No, not because of his reaction to my Shin case. He just feels rather distant when it comes to his cases, gonna ISO him up and see what's up.

Vig should not be shooting someone on Night 1 (an argument can be made for it if he's an unlimited-shot Vig and somehow has a very good case on somebody). Especially when Elieson, Scorri and Shinori have RL issues and Flan's been suspended (he's been temporarily replaced but I don't think Bluedoom has posted yet).

Au contraire, vig should shoot ASAP before vig dies. Bit Objection in the butt in Inception, do not want to say it happen here.

If we're putting this up to some kind of vote, I'd rather that vig not kill today. The chances of hitting town among your seven-person list is much likely higher than hitting scum, and at this point that factor of randomness is much more dangerous to town than the potential of them simply being lurking scum.

How do you know this...

[Refa]

REVOTALS 2.0

eclipse (2): kirsche, Green Poet

Refa (2): Shin, BBM

SB (4): Elieson, Radiant Dragon, Shinori, Bluedoom

Radiant Dragon (3): FleurDeGlace, Kopfjager, Shark Bait

Green Poet (2): Xinnidy, bearclaw

Shin (1): Refa

FleurDeGlace (1): eclipse

Xinnidy (1): scorri

BBM (1): Flan

There are 25 hours and 37 minutes left in the phase. With 16 alive, it takes 9 to hammer, and 5 to lynch at deadline.

Also a reminder: When voting, please use ## before your equivalent vote word, otherwise I may miss it.

OK, guess I'll start off with SB since he's the #1 in votals, move on to Radiant Dragon, and then ISO someone else after that, I don't know. What, do you expect me to actually be able to think ahead?

[Bluedoom]

Firing at this stage doesn't give us enough information to outweigh the fact that if the Vig hits Town we potentially lose a mislynch and speed up the scum's clock by a day.

Not sure how I've been paranoid. How have I been paranoid regarding the Vig shot (can I get some more experienced players to back me up here or tell me why I'm wrong about holding fire Night 1)? If you're referring to my Shin vote when you say 'been suspicious about some RVS votes', I'll remind you that I've already conceded that I made a mistake. I'll let you finish checking ISOs before I push this any further.

Why do you care about losing a mislynch? Its better for town to think in always looking for a correct lynch. Lynching under pressure is also better because then at least it forces town to get their act together and try lynching correctly. Vigs give an extra flip, why not use that for more info(if it does misvig) instead of waiting later and HOPING that the vig does it right.

Your whole case related to Fleur reeks of paranoia since you keep make a mountain out of a molehill of her voteswitch earlier and then you also have a problem with her listing scumreads and asking the vig to shoot. With so much focus on her I feel you should've voted her by now instead of keeping your vote on SB.

##Unvote ##Vote: Radiant Dragon

I'm fine with either an Sb or RD lynch but RD is a better one. I have less to go off on SB than I have on RD, I do blame SB's lack of activity for that though. RD's been active, and I can't say I approve of his actions.

[Bluedoom]

How do you know this...

No shit man people totally know everything about probability amirite?

[Grace]

Votals when I wake up tomorrow, I'm physically exhausted right now.

A reminder though that if you do not get the requisite votes for a lynch (in this case, 5), the game ends in universal loss.

There are 23 hours and 43 minutes left in the phase.

[BBM]

Well I woke up late, so this is going to be kind of rushed.

Looking through RD's recent opinion post, other than SB and sort of Wen, literally everyone is listed as either a townread or a suspicion that he backs away from. He does the latter with Refa, Shinori, and Eclipse. And after so many posts discussing how Fleur was buddying, I really dislike that he just dismissed it with "Fleur is just trying to seem helpful" and he still hasn't explained why the buddying thing is a point against SB instead of Fleur. In fact when SB points this out he turns it against him and says that SB is complaining that his (RD's) vote is still on him.

I still think Refa is suspicious but as far as consolidation goes, I would prefer lynching RD to SB, and it seems like it's going to be one of them rather than Refa. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Radiant Dragon

[FleurDeGlace]

Too many inactive players right now. I more or less have a read on all of the players that have posted actively and need the inactive players to post so I can analyse them. This is more so for those inactives that have promised to reread and catchup on the game but have failed to do so appropriately even now: Elieson, Kopfjager and scorri.

I don't really like Radiant Dragon's list posting of his reads, especially when they are more or less town reads. Like, posting who you think is town is not going to help town's discussion and scum hunting at all. Who you think is town should be kept to yourself. It helps scum tell who the player with the most town credit is and helps them narrow down a suitable kill target.

Right now, I am looking at either a Radiant Dragon or a Green Poet lynch based off of their really recent behaviour. Leaning towards lynching Radiant Dragon first because I want more time to analyse Green Poet and because Radiant Dragon has been acting scummily since the start of phase so I think he is a better lynch candidate.

Next phase, I will want to look more in depth into the whole discussion between Refa, Sangyul, Shark Bait and Shin. Nothing pinged me from their exchanges but I want to look for more content from there than anywhere else because I think at least one or two of them are scum.

[FleurDeGlace]

Also, Green Poet, get your vote off of eclipse this instant. She is not even an active slot now so your vote is 100% wasted. She has had no posts, content or interactions since her initial 5 posts. I don't think that there is enough content to justify a vote on that player slot all the way from near the start of the phase until near the end of it.

I would think that when almost everyone tells you to move your vote or that your vote is bad, you would actually reconsider your vote and move it elsewhere.

Many things have happened, I am sure you would have another scum read. Pursue it and move your vote somewhere where it can be more useful.

[Shin]

Next phase, I will want to look more in depth into the whole discussion between Refa, Sangyul, Shark Bait and Shin. Nothing pinged me from their exchanges but I want to look for more content from there than anywhere else because I think at least one or two of them are scum.

We still kinda have this phase, and it's a bit of a contradiction that you're not getting anything from the conversation yet you think someone is scum. Is that based on probability, otherwise I'd imagine there'd be a reason. I also agree with Refa's point about the mislynch. I was reading Wen as pretty lazy, but there's something definitely up with that line.

##Unvote

##Vote: Green Poet

I'm feeling slightly better about Refa but mostly Green, that was no misunderstanding, you were using some shoddy logic to vote for me and have now tried to retract the vote and pretend nothing happened!

[FleurDeGlace]

It is based off of myself not having a lot of scum reads in General and believing that from such an exchange involving so many players, at least one of them has to be scum. Call it probability if you will.

I don't have this phase because I need to sleep now. I have to wake up early tomorrow, which leaves me with less than an hour to get discussions going and get most of the players here to listen to my analyses. Given the current activity of the game, I also don't think enough votes can be shifted to anyone else right now.

[Elieson]

16 PAGE READRUN, GO

[Bluedoom]

YAY ELI UR BACK

[Da Bear]

So phase end is 6 am for me, I'll be gone for like 7-8 hours before that for sleep and not wake up in time anyway gg timezones. Seems like SB and RD are the top lynch candidates so I'll look into them and Refa when I'm not PHONEPOSTING.

also;

YAY ELI UR BACK

[Green Poet]

Going to ISO SB later on if I have time. At present, I don't quite understand the wagon behind him, though this is likely to change once I take another look.

##Unvote

Don't want to contribute to a chance of eclipse's sub dying before they're able to say anything.

Will probably be on for the last 1-2 hours before phase end.

[Elieson]

Holy crap subs up the ying yang. I'm gonna have to try extra hard to keep my monocle polished and aimed towards reading this game. Thanks for bearing with all of my spontaneous vanishing. Things are settling down for me

Second, I lost my notes for stuff that occurred pre-page 7. I'll hafta get those later, though it's mostly crap about RVS and not really important (because I couldn't really link anything to specific case/behavior)

ARE YOU READY!

[spoiler= General Thread notes in here, to reduce Wallsize]

I don't see the point of discussing chainsaw defences until one of them actually flips scum.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Radiant Dragon

tired and sheeping what Boron said in her last post

BBM this is disappointing. You're sheeping a questionable case. You're not even sheeping a solid case, because RD hasn't really provide a fair response yet. *Thumbs Down*

ISOing eclipse:

#78: RVS vote.

#87: Unrelated content and another RVS vote.

#104: Questions me a little over my Refa vote. Proceeds on to display a dislike of the votes on Refa but does not want to pursue anything. Makes a list of player names and nicknames (that makes his post seem longer than the actual game-related content) before deciding not to move his vote at all.

#107: Proceeds to post only a link in response to Flan that has no relevance to the game.

I find it suspicious that you have made four posts so far and not posted much actual content or tried to follow up much of what you dislike happening in the game.

@Shark Bait: I think you missed eclipse's last post.

##Unvote
##Vote: eclipse

Same case as with Radiant Dragon, I want to see more actual content and less voteparking since it seems like you're willing to votepark on Kopfjager than to follow up on your other cases.

eclipse is typically a cryptic and obscure player. It irritates me to no end, 90% of the time. She usually posts actual content though, so this is a case that I could support.

It's like the last sentence in that third post doesn't exist (that's my response to both of you).

More posts != more content. I don't feel like posting unless it's worth my time, and most of it wasn't (if I'm posting about NICKNAMES and IRRELEVANT PAST GAMES, that means that the rest of you aren't doing much). As I'm neither Loved/Hated, I don't care about how any theoretical people handle it.

Now that stuff is happening, here's what I don't like:

- BBM's vote-hopping. He seems to be second after whoever makes a case. Made a note of it when it happened to Refa (but didn't think it was worth following at the time), and am paying more attention since he did it a second time.
- Fleur. That Refa vote didn't ping me, even if I didn't agree with the logic (the two votes before it looked like the end of RVS and something that I already noted). Then she pulled what BBM is doing, twice in a short amount of time.

The other thing that is weirding me out about Fleur (now that I'm reading her ISO) is this. You've either played the game or you haven't, and those posts speak of two very different levels of experience. I see no benefit behind town trying to look clumsy, initially. First-time scum, on the other hand, benefits from appearing inexperienced.

##Unvote
##Vote: Fleur

BBM needs to do more than plop down votes after someone else does. However, my role doesn't allow me to vote two different people at once, and Fleur's here right now. If I didn't mention you, that means that you're not worth my time yet.

Didn't BBM switch his vote from like, his very first vote, to his current vote? That looks like a pretty big misrep (try, flat out exaggeration). BBM is playing pretty crappily to this point, but you're making him look bad for the wrong reasons. Not very ladylike.

Fleur, why is Eclipse not contributing worse than RD?

Eclipse is correct that my Refa vote was purposely wagoning. In RVS, unless something really sticks out to me as bad, I try to vote someone who already has a vote or two on them for reactions. The RD vote was voting for something I found suspicious despite someone already having pointed that out. RD's justification of his Shin vote, that Shin seemed eager to start a wagon, when Shin was the first person voting for Refa, didn't make any sense. I wasn't going to avoid voting for him just because I didn't find anything new to add in. Kirsche- RD's recent explanation was what I voted him for. >_>

So...your shitty wagoning vote was...shitty wagoning?

Also, Fleur has brought up both Eclipse and RD for mild contribution. I'd be more concerned with getting content out as to what people seem to be deliberately ignoring, rather than questioning the "51:49" ratio of someone's particular scumvibe chart.

It depends on what they do next. Having bad logic by itself isn't scummy, but sticking to bad logic like a parasitic worm is.

Only true if the person who's abiding by said "bad" logic is intentionally doing so. There are hundreds of cases that originate on town players for having bad cases, that get them lynched, whether or not they stick to them. This is especially true for late game. what exactly are you getting at here? This is nullstuff, especially at this point, when there's no flips to work with.

Shin's vote is a bad vote because it feels like a refuge in audacity (thanks Prims, I'll never get that trope out of my head now...). I call him out on being reactionary, so he responds by making an obviously reactionary vote on me. There's no way scum would be so obvious...right? Also his RVS shenanigans are giving me Semi-Precious vibes.


Why is stating a suspicion of Shin opportunistic? It's like yeah, I find him suspicious for this, if he does more things that bother me I will probably vote him (spoiler alert, I am voting Shin in this post). How is this scummy, I don't get it.


Radiant Dragon is pretty laissez faire with his votes. His vote on Poly is because why not, but that can be chalked up to standard RVS shenanigans. Then he votes Shin to see where it goes. I feel worse about him than I do with Green Poet because he has played Mafia games in the past, although apparently that was the distant past, but still.

Various problems with this one.

"Refuge in audacity" seems like a case in semantics in the works (which I peeked ahead, and saw that people jumped on this before I could). Null at best.

Asking "Why am I scummy" is a bad move, because you're essentially saying "Oh shoot, I'll stop doing the things that make me look bad, if you tell me what they are".

RD's throwing votes around, which create pressure and discussion. It's contribution, in essence. Weak because he's letting us all do the discussion though.

Agree that Fleur's jumping all over the place, don't really think it's scummy though. Or even bad play, really, just seems kind of weird. Like I can see scum not holding strong conviction to their votes but in her case I can see a logical progression of sorts to her votes, so it doesn't upset me.

Actually, it seems more like Fleur is trying to get more people to just support her cases, one after the other, in hopes that one of her cases amasses some votes. Or she's wildly applying pressure, in which case, she needs to control her swordplay a little better. I'm willing to consider the former.

Lynch Priority:

Shin > eclipse > Radiant Dragon > The Majority > kirsche > Fleur > Me

Wait wait wait. Why the ever-living fudgesickle is Shin right there at the top? Your immediate post prior hinted at a "Maybe he's scum maybe he isn't, I dunno".

EBWOP.

Can you please stop saying this? You said EBWOP like 3 or 4 times in this thread. It isn't helping, and when you accuse people of throwing out shitty space-wasting posts, and then do it yourself, it only serves to frustrate me and find you hypocritical -> scummy (It's not bad if I do it, but it's bad if they do it).

Refa, you flip flopped quite a lot on what my vote on you actually meant. You then seem to transition to the logic that my RD vote lacked suitable reasoning. However, RD's initial vote on me actually had no reasoning, the justification came later and was incredibly weak. A vote with that little basis clearly warrants being looked at with suspicion. Refa, nobody suggested it was any form of reaction test, you're tunneling me pretty hard, bro. You later accept that RD looks pretty bad, but apparently that's only worth mentioning after people start taking issues with your read on me.


RD's back-tracking looked bad, and he literally says nothing about Fleur other than umming and ahing. His retraction of the vote on me seems a little off, but with the evidence presented to him, there's not really much he could have done other than that.

Refa flipflopped more on his case on you, shin, than he flipflopped on RD (granted, he did more barrel rolls than Peppy Hare with regards to both of you). I initially quoted this because I thought Shin looked bad from this, but apparently it's helping solidify my stance on Refa. Who knew?!

Refa and RD are apparently doing the same things then. Both topped with an extra helping of weaksauce.

I felt that eclipse could have gathered a case together at this point but chose not to in order to keep her vote on Kopfjager. She herself has admitted, in that same post that things were already going somewhere in the game so I find it scummy that she still does not want to move her vote at that point.

The tiebreaker was the Shin vs Kopfjager comparison. Shin was in a better position to respond while Kopfjager looked like he probably might not respond at all. In addition, eclipse's willingness to vote Kopfjager when she could have followed up on actual reads at that point pinged me off.

Why should someone switch their vote before getting a response? One, it's not like we can predict the activity of any given player (hell, I can't predict my own activity), and Two, if the vote on said Kopf was intended to apply pressure, how can it be properly responded to if it's shifted to another player?

I didn't feel the need to defend myself because to the vast majority of the game, including myself, the vote on Refa and later RD are pretty reasonable. RD had a hollow vote on me with delayed reasoning, which was later retracted.

##Unvote
##Vote: Refa

I'm still not entirely happy with RD, but the Refa/Green combo is too strong! I've been most of what they've talked about this game. Green's vote is because "he might be defending Flan", yet he's barely said a word about my "scumbuddy".

On the plus side, I'm feeling fairly town about BBM. His opinion on eclipse is pretty solid and his reads are fair in general, I do agree eclipse has been awfully passive in her content, although I'm not sure if her recent activity is a result of RL or not. Her vote on Fleur still doesn't really hold, but without new content from eclipse I can't really cement anything further.

Other than his weak early-game sheeping, what exactly has made BBM look town to you? One case on eclipse, and his general filler?

Also, not seeing this Refa/Green combo. Can you elaborate on this? (I might have just overlooked it while speedreading though).

Do not like how Sangyul requested for a sub after being put under pressure by Refa and I but I am going to stop here with this point.

Uncalled for.

Honestly, eclipse has posted so little today that I do not want to see an eclipse lynch even if she is more likely a scum. Gives less interaction goodies to analyse and inactives are generally better for a vigilante shot, in my opinion.

If there is a vigilante, I would like these players shot in this order: Elieson > scorri > eclipse > Flan > Kopfjager > Shinori.

My heart, it trembles! You suddenly feel like, after all of today, that eclipse isn't really lynchworthy? You've been up her tailpipe almost all phase, and now, she's just worthy of a bullet after a few others? Not gonna flaunt my situation over you, but I do have cause as to why I haven't been active, and hell, you can look at the signups for my post on my expected activity amount. Also, why are you trying to tell the vig what to do? I'm pretty sure that if one exists, he/she could figure out what to do by themselves.

1: Stop talking about whether or not I might be the vigilante.

2: Lynching scum > Lynching for information at any point in time. The lynch system is probably town's only way of picking off the scum team and wasting one on someone that we do not think is likely to be scum wastes the number of chances we have to lynch off all of the scum team one by one. I don't understand why anyone can think that lynching anything other than scum is useful for town. The worth of lynching scum and lynching solely for information never balances out.

3: Our reads on the inactive players are likely too weak right now to definitively point to them as scum given how little content they have posted so it is definitely a given that we lynch active scum players.

4: We should never rely on role knowledge to lynch players or deduce who is scum at all. We don't know the setup; We don't know the host; We don't know if scum has safe claims to claim. It's a bonus if we can lynch scum based on reports but we should be lynching based off of our interactions and discussions instead.

I am a little suspicious of Green Poet right now.

1. oh come on you brought up the point all by yourself with absolutely no provocation!!!! WHY SHOULD WE NOT RESPOND TO THINGS THAT YOU BROUGHT UP RANDOMLY?!?! EVERYONE SAYS THINGS FOR A REASON, SO YOU TELLING US NOT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR LOGIC IS BEYOND ME.

2. Lynching scum > Lynching for information. Ok. Cool. Vig'ing for information > Vig'ing for scum is ok though? I don't think so. That's exactly what I'm getting out of your Vig Tier post.

This post reaks of contradictory hyperbole and poor judgment.

Why do you care about losing a mislynch? Its better for town to think in always looking for a correct lynch. Lynching under pressure is also better because then at least it forces town to get their act together and try lynching correctly. Vigs give an extra flip, why not use that for more info(if it does misvig) instead of waiting later and HOPING that the vig does it right.

Your whole case related to Fleur reeks of paranoia since you keep make a mountain out of a molehill of her voteswitch earlier and then you also have a problem with her listing scumreads and asking the vig to shoot. With so much focus on her I feel you should've voted her by now instead of keeping your vote on SB.

##Unvote ##Vote: Radiant Dragon

I'm fine with either an Sb or RD lynch but RD is a better one. I have less to go off on SB than I have on RD, I do blame SB's lack of activity for that though. RD's been active, and I can't say I approve of his actions.

You're just saying that because the vig didn't shoot me in Fakeclaim and everyone is still butthurt over that ohohohoho

We really shouldn't be mislynching, and right now, it's day-flipping-one, with zero information on the table. I really don't think we should be aiming a gun at this point in hopes to find lurkscum, unless you're assuming that we have like 8 lurkscum in this game to pick from.

---

Scumchart go!

FleurDeFleur

RD

Shin

BBM

eclipse (though without playing currently, I can't really stand more on this one)

Anyone else who isn't them.

Can I get a phase time

Aaaaand, that's about it

##Unvote Shark Bait

##Vote FleurDeGrace

##FoS Radiant Dragon (Because that Listpost didn't do him any favors)

[Green Poet]

I'm feeling slightly better about Refa but mostly Green, that was no misunderstanding, you were using some shoddy logic to vote for me and have now tried to retract the vote and pretend nothing happened!

After rereading Refa, I actually have to agree with you.

My case on you was awful, and everyone except myself and Refa could apparently see this.

How do you know this...

Read some wikis and came to the conclusion that town almost always outnumber scum for balancing reasons. Why wasn't this a natural assumption for you as well?

OK, this post doesn't jive with me. First she calls Shin's comment a convenient dismissal. OK, I can see why she'd think that. Then a suspicion of Kopfjager, which is actually bad because inactivity is not a scum tell (or are you calling a good deal of the player base scum). And then the eclipse vote is so...contrived. Like just because she's a mod doesn't mean she should be more active...

Meh, I'll need to ISO Green Poet. Wasn't really bothered by her before (probably because confirmation bias, if someone agrees with me I think they're less likely to be scum...it's not a good trait, really), though, but her content now is...I'll leave it for the ISO.

What I'm getting out of this post is that Refa just wanted Shin dead. When so many people were against my underdeveloped Shin case, he was the only one to support it, and solely through meta reasons. Everyone else maintains that you can't base a read off meta, but Refa called it "good reasoning" that I suspected Shin because of the disagreement with his past RVS tendencies.

My suspicion against Kopfjager was also based on how he voted RD without much explanation, yet this part wasn't addressed in your post.

Same with eclipse, inactivity was not the main premise of my suspicions. I've said this enough times that it seems that Refa's simply trying to find reasons to get on my wagon. Granted, my play so far clearly encourages doing so, but the reasons that Refa's brought up don't convince even me.

It's possible I simply thought Refa to be town because of this "confirmation bias" as well, wrt my weak case on Shin.

Suspicious of Refa now.

Null read on everyone else for now. I've been trying to perceive things that were out of my ability to do, and wasting a lot of words on nothing. Figuring out what to think of SB takes priority for now.

[Refa]

A quick preface: I didn't ISO myself because obvious, or any of the people who subbed out (did ISO their replacements, if applicable though).

Leaning Town

(N/A)

Null

[spoiler=scorri]

Makes a good point about Green. Hasn't really done much else. I guess this is similar to Kopfjager, but I'm more bothered by him because he basically did comment things that were going on but left no opinions on anything while scorri hasn't really done the same. She should post more, though...

Leaning Scum

[spoiler=Kopfjager]

Only made one post, and he's already on my bad side. Talks about the argument and "vote flinging" (he should become a video game reviewer, this is comparable to "visceral gaming" in its meaningless), then just votes Radiant Dragon without even saying anything about him. This is not comparable to other people who haven't played Mafia in a while, they at least put in some modicum of effort. This is worse than Kaoz in FE6 Mafia.

[spoiler=BBM]

Votes Radiant Dragon early on for not giving a reason for voting Shin. Considering I did this in FiM and BBM didn't find that suspicious enough to vote for, this strikes me as very much not town!BBM. His first content post is bad. He nitpicks at things (e.g. Fleur saying that eclipse not contributing is worse than RD, eclipse harping over whether Fleur knows what OMGUS means) but doesn't actually offer any reads. BBM talks much more about alignment as town as well. Next post of his is more of the same. And the next. Despite appearing to be active, the first time he lays an opinion on anything is when he makes his case on me. And he still doesn't really state anything about my alignment, most of his complaints seem to be about bad play rather than anything else. His Wen defense doesn't make sense to me for reasons I've stated in my Wen case. Don't really mind the actual SB case, but the fact that he himself has no thoughts on SB while saying he doesn't want to lynch him is off. Again, more of this impersonal complaining at other peoples' reads rather than sharing any of his own. Also I feel like town!BBM would have some town reads at this point...

[spoiler=Green Poet]

Votes Shin because of his potential defense of Flan, even though earlier on she said she'd interpret it as RVS reasons. Logical disconnect already. Every time she states an opinion early on, she generally backs it up with "I'm not sure" or "I don't know..." which strikes me as overly worried. It bothers me, but I suppose newb!town could exhibit as much as newb!scum so it's not really alignment indicative. Don't like how she handwaved the contradiction so easily, that's scummy regardless of her level of experience. Explains her read on eclipse later on. It's bad though because she calls eclipse out on making an easy excuse not to contribute, and that she has issues with Fleur, so scummy? However she says she'll only believe what Fleur's saying if eclipse flips scum, it's just so bad. There's a lot of fluff after this, and it's like why this isn't helping at all. Like I know people like Eurykins who have a lot of null reads and have a hard time being decisive about who is scum, and I can get why inexperienced players would act like that. However, this doesn't strike me as that. It seems more like my play in Fakeclaim TBH.

##Unvote

##Vote: Green Poet

(holy shit that rhymed)

10 more ISO's to go! Would be OK with lynching anyone on my leaning scum list.

[Refa]

Not gameplay relevant but maaaaan this is like my favorite list post I've ever made even if postgame and/or flips prove me wrong. It's just so ACCESSIBLE. *ahem*, moving on to other ISOs. 6 more hours left, I will actually ISO SB and Radiant Dragon this time. I know I said that last time, but I got bored trying to compare SB to his play in FiM and Radiant Dragon has a lot of stuff (dunno if it's fluff, I just kind of skimmed through it TBH).

[Radiant Dragon]

ITT: RD sucks at scumhunting. Like, really bad.

Wen didn't try and build a misdirected lynch. He said that if one happened, that was better than a no lynch. I'll get to the rest of that wall in the morning.

His vote amounts to an approval for everyone to build a misdirected lynch on me. Even if he might not have been 'trying' to make a misdirected lynch, he still threw a vote on someone without putting practically any effort into it at all while saying 'I hope we don't mislynch, but oh well if we do.' No shit, sherlock! It's Day 1, the odds of us mislynching with the (lack of) information we have are pretty damn high. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It does mean we shouldn't be throwing votes around nilly-willy.

RD is still bad for voteparking me based on like, 3 things. I'm pretty sure I answered this before but eclipse brought up points she could have easily used for an ok RVS vote at the time but then basically said they didn't mean anything and then proceeded to handwave my attack on her telling me that I missed part of her post, which I didn't. My vote is still on eclipse because I haven't done anything period for 24 hours almost, and "only taking part in easy discussion" is what? I have no idea what you're talking about here, and comsidering nobody but Refa was actually posting at that point it would've been impossible for me to generate reads on people there.

A lot of the other people he addresses with his wallpost kinda look like padding more than anything else, Shinori and Green are null/waffles, a couple of them are just townreads and one is basically "inactivity is bad". His other content hasn't exactly been stellar either.

##Vote: RD

The bolded statement isn't particularly accurate. Looking at the post in question here, eclipse simply meant that the points she made (mostly about Refa's reaction to the Shin/Flan timestamp fiasco) were not strong enough to justify removing the pressure on Wen to make a post.

She 'handwaved' your attack because she told you why vote for anyone she mentioned. You didn't attack her reasoning for not moving her vote, so she didn't respond to it. I don't frankly agree with her reasoning - one RVS vote isn't exactly a lot of pressure - but there it is.

I brought up the point about you still voting for eclipse because I would have expected you to unvote in this post. It's a rather weak point so don't worry about it. Consider it retracted if that makes you feel better.

You haven't posted much about anything except to attack myself, Refa and eclipse, all of whom are pretty easy to make a case against. You give a sentence about Wen which does anything but state the obvious. Your last post about your null reads seems pretty lazy, not a whole lot of why going on.

I see now that I probably should have kept my Town/Null reads to myself. Sorry about that. Will try to listpost less in the future.

I'll respond to the attacks on my character on page 16 when I have the time to do so.

[charlie_]

Radiant Dragon (5): FleurDeGlace, Kopfjager, Shark Bait, Bluedoom, BBM

Green Poet (4): Xinnidy, bearclaw, Shin, Refa

SB (2): Radiant Dragon, Shinori

FleurDeGlace (2): eclipse, Elieson

eclipse (1): kirsche

Xinnidy (1): scorri

Not Voting (1): Green Poet

3 hours left

Gonna read Green more closely now I guess since he's apparently a wagon?

[charlie_]

I would totally say Green is town off of mod meta but it's probably bad and Manix said he RNGed everything anyway so urgh I actually have to read. Keeping this briefish.

I don't like his initial buddying suspicion wrt Shin/Poly especially when he pretty much just borrowed weak reasons from Refa to do it in the first place. Especially when you could argue he uses chainsaw defense himself when he proclaims eclipse as the second scummiest player for having a meta read that you didn't agree with. Honestly a lot of his posts just sort of seem to be defending Fleur which isn't great. His Shin case is based off of him jokeposting and he keeps this vote down for a while until switching onto eclipse for a bit. He doesn't really do much else other than this despite having kind of a lot of posts. I also find it kind of weird how he's managed to get through most of the day without having said anything (or very little) about RD considering he's been a topic of discussion for a while.

A bit scummier than Refa I guess, but I would lynch RD before him considering he's new.

[charlie_]

If RD gets here, he should claim btw. Gonna respond to anything else now.

[charlie_]

@RD's post: A single RVS vote that's literally there for the sake of RVS doesn't pressure anyone into doing anything. If it has a legitiment reason, even if it's a weak one, it's much better at advancing the game. I kept my eclipse vote down because I thought she was scummy and wanted to keep pressure on her so she would answer my posts. Obviously she isn't going to do that now, but shrug. You say I've "only" had three suspicions, but considering it's D1 and we're most likely dealing with a 4 man scumteam (or similar) based on numbers, that's hardly a bad thing at all. And calling cases "easy" is just stupid, "easy cases" are easy for a reason, there's usually some solid grounding behind them.

Kopfjager should just be vigged at this point imo.

[Grace]

Votals The Fourth

Radiant Dragon (5): FleurDeGlace, Kopfjager, SB, Bluedoom, BBM

Green Poet (4): Xinnidy, bearclaw, Shin, Refa

SB (2): Radiant Dragon, Shinori

FleurDeGlace (2): eclipse, Elieson

eclipse (1): kirsche

Xinnidy (1): scorri

Not Voting (1): Green Poet

There are 2 hours and 8 minutes left in the phase. With 16 alive, it takes 9 to hammer, and 5 to lynch at deadline.

[Da Bear]

Turns out deadline is actually 6 PM for me (pro reading), so I'll be here until deadline.

RD seems to be the lynch (unless someone else comes in to vote Green which isn't unlikely), I haven't looked at him yet so I'll do that now.