Etrian Odyssey 2 Mafia - Game Over

[Shinori]

HNNNNG MUST POST BUT LIGHTNING RETURNS ISA CALLIN' MAH NAME.

So, so far from everything I've read, which I did read most of the stuff, ALL ABOUT THE BBM WAGON GO!

##Vote: BBM

The refa vote pinged me but without anything else it was honestly null. What I didn't like were his more recent two posts. First off I think it's funny that he states that it sucks when people don't try to push things along in RVS when he didn't do much of that himself, except his refa vote I guess...Silly silly. The biggest thing I didn't like about his most recent posts was the fact that he's definitely been reading; you can see this because of the amount of questions and all t hat jazz that he puts forth trying to ask a few people specific questions. BUT EVEN SO: He admits his refa vote was just wagoning, okay it was RVS whatevs. BUT THEN HE DOESNT CHANGE HIS VOTE. How evil! I mean cmon yo! He's reading enough to put forth effort and question other people's thoughts and process's but can't be bothered to get a new scum read over his "Just wagoning" RVS vote? Gotta do better than that buddy ol' pal!

Other various sticklers of thoughts. Eclipse is weird. Not really liking it at first glance buuuuuuuuuuuut not my top priority. Gut feeling is telling me one of SB/Refa is scum if not both. Of which I might is scummier at the moment? NO IDEA. I don't wanna put that much effort into deciphering that quiiiiite yet.(P.S. LOL at Refa's lynch priority, he put himself at like 7. Does that mean anyone not listed he thinks is more town than himself? Or is it a clever ploy where he is scum and mentioned on town players on his lynch priority?) Something about Kirsche is pinging me as bad as well IMO. Not quite sure what it is. Really didn't quite like his post #149. Also honestly I don't really like the Eclipse wagon.

Anyone not mentioned is either null or town or a plausible scum read that I just happened to not say.

GOOD BYE BACK TO LIGHTNING RETURNS I GO! Although I'll still partially be here and what not so if there is a response to me here that is easy for me to answer I'll probably answer it. If someone types up a wall of a case on me though you can just go play with yourself and you should know ahead of time I probably won't put THAT much effort into deciphering a wall of text at the moment.

^Let that be a note to anyone: If you are gonna make a case on me over the next few days or so and want me to respond; try to not make it a wall.

[Shinori]

##Vote: BBM

[Elieson]

I know it's not much, but I have finally set up my computer and a wireless network. I'll be catcHing up this evening

[BBM]

Shinori: I switched my vote from Refa to RD last night, so I have no idea what your vote is about. You also say you don't really like Eclipse (but that she's not your top priority), and then denounce her wagon at the same time. Mind explaining? A lot of your stuff just seems really arbitrary. Like why do you think one of SB and Refa is scum?

I don't really see the contradiction that RD is pointing out in SB's posts. Additionally, even if it was there, he seems to be focusing a lot more on Fleur than him, for someone who has his vote on SB, and he's also trying to draw associative reads between SB and Fleur when neither of them have even flipped. Plus, if two people finding the same person suspicious in close succession was buddying, why not accuse me and Boron for similar stuff on his wagon?

[Sunwoo]

##Unvote

For now, since he dropped his initial Shin case, which was why I'd voted him at first. Although, I'd like a bit more of a clear opinion about Fleur. You find her suspicious, but think her vote switch to eclipse is odd for scum, so would you say she's leaning scum or leaning town to you?

##Vote: Refa

I think he's making a big deal out of whatever Shin had done to make it look like it's scummy when it's really not. Throwing around terms like "refuge" in audacity don't make your case look better, it looks like it's trying too hard to make a big deal out of nothing. Also, if his RVS play is giving you "Semi-Precious" vibes, what is giving you those vibes and what is he doing that is different from town games? I'm sorry, but "vibes" is such a vague term that can be used to stand in for whatever case you want to make in the future so you can say "but I had suspicion on them before" and I'm not buying it if you're not going to explain it further. I don't think Shin's RD vote was without explanation, nor do I find it bad. I would also like to know why his vote on Poly was so terrible.

tl;dr Refa is blowing whatever Shin did out of proportion and making a whole lot of nothing into the scummiest thing ever. Don't like.

As for Shin - yes, he seemed scummy to me. He deliberately voteswitched to Refa knowing that Refa had called him out with the first openly serious post, and, recognizing this, it doesn't make much sense to me to call this a product of his own "silliness." It makes sense for town to drop the jokes once someone starts accusing you for real.

I'm also somewhat suspicious of Shin's most recent post. I don't believe he was trying to start a wagon on Refa, but his RD vote seems unwarranted to me. RD's reasoning was more or less the same as mine. I'll keep my vote on Shin.

I don't like the bolded sentence, because it makes assumptions about what you think townies "should" do, and calls them scum because they "didn't do it". Just because "it makes sense for town to drop the jokes", why does it make you scum if you don't? I don't understand what's so bad about this.

While I don't agree with eclipse's point about Fleur's experience (the terminology" thing), I can't say I have a problem with her at the moment and am not reading her actions as scummy. I would, however, like to see her responses to people's cases on her.

Fleur, while I understand you're not completely dropping suspicions when you make a new vote, I am a little wary that each new suspicion that had been brought up was a stronger scum read than your previous vote target to warrant a vote switch. Yes, you can reread people after someone else brings them up and find them scummy at the end of that reread, but why are they WORSE than the person you were previously voting?

Green's case on Shin looks bad to me. And why is eclipse second in your suspicions list? Why is her meta read of Fleur being off the second worst thing that's happened in the thread? How do you feel it's forced? I want to hear your suspicions on eclipse from you, not kirsche.

[Sunwoo]

Fuck everything, I broke a quote tag. Let me fix that up.

[Sunwoo]

As for Shin - yes, he seemed scummy to me. He deliberately voteswitched to Refa knowing that Refa had called him out with the first openly serious post, and, recognizing this, it doesn't make much sense to me to call this a product of his own "silliness." It makes sense for town to drop the jokes once someone starts accusing you for real.

I'm also somewhat suspicious of Shin's most recent post. I don't believe he was trying to start a wagon on Refa, but his RD vote seems unwarranted to me. RD's reasoning was more or less the same as mine. I'll keep my vote on Shin.

I don't like the bolded sentence, because it makes assumptions about what you think townies "should" do, and calls them scum because they "didn't do it". Just because "it makes sense for town to drop the jokes", why does it make you scum if you don't? I don't understand what's so bad about this.

While I don't agree with eclipse's point about Fleur's experience (the terminology" thing), I can't say I have a problem with her at the moment and am not reading her actions as scummy. I would, however, like to see her responses to people's cases on her.

Fleur, while I understand you're not completely dropping suspicions when you make a new vote, I am a little wary that each new suspicion that had been brought up was a stronger scum read than your previous vote target to warrant a vote switch. Yes, you can reread people after someone else brings them up and find them scummy at the end of that reread, but why are they WORSE than the person you were previously voting?

Green's case on Shin looks bad to me. And why is eclipse second in your suspicions list? Why is her meta read of Fleur being off the second worst thing that's happened in the thread? How do you feel it's forced? I want to hear your suspicions on eclipse from you, not kirsche.

[FleurDeGlace]

Give me a second to respond to everything. I woke up only a while back and it's only 7.50am now so my head is fuzzy (feels like one of my spells have backfired.....).....

Also, a heads up that I will be at the hospital for some part of today so my activity while I am out will be a little low. I will post from my phone but it is a lot harder too so don't expect it too much.

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't really see the contradiction that RD is pointing out in SB's posts. Additionally, even if it was there, he seems to be focusing a lot more on Fleur than him, for someone who has his vote on SB, and he's also trying to draw associative reads between SB and Fleur when neither of them have even flipped. Plus, if two people finding the same person suspicious in close succession was buddying, why not accuse me and Boron for similar stuff on his wagon?

I did not suggest buddying simply because they both voted for eclipse so close to one another. I suggested buddying because Fleur switched from a legitimate bandwagon to start a pretty weak case on eclipse, immediately after SB voted for her, without any further developments about my Shin vote and only thirty-two minutes after she voted for me. I can't think of a reason why eclipse's lack of content would be more suspicious than my mistake, so buddying was one possible explanation.

This is not the same as when you and Boron voted for me. When you were sheeping Boron, you were switching from an RVS vote you made over six hours ago.

For now, since he dropped his initial Shin case, which was why I'd voted him at first. Although, I'd like a bit more of a clear opinion about Fleur. You find her suspicious, but think her vote switch to eclipse is odd for scum, so would you say she's leaning scum or leaning town to you?

I thought her vote switch to eclipse was odd for scum because I couldn't think of a reason why scum would jump from a safe bandwagon on me to start a weak case on eclipse. That was before I noticed the interaction between her and SB, although the interaction between the two would only make sense if both of them are scum. Otherwise, it's likely a coincidence. Still, I felt it deserved to be mentioned.

[Sunwoo]

I thought her vote switch to eclipse was odd for scum because I couldn't think of a reason why scum would jump from a safe bandwagon on me to start a weak case on eclipse. That was before I noticed the interaction between her and SB, although the interaction between the two would only make sense if both of them are scum. Otherwise, it's likely a coincidence. Still, I felt it deserved to be mentioned.

So you're null on her for the moment until one of her or SB flips scum, in which you'd look a little closer at the other, is what you're saying?

[Radiant Dragon]

So you're null on her for the moment until one of her or SB flips scum, in which you'd look a little closer at the other, is what you're saying?

Not exactly. I still think she's a bit suspicious, being a bit too defensive earlier and seeming to be trying a little too hard (this is more subjective than most of what we have to work with though, which is saying something). The possibility of buddying was just kind of an add-on.

[Green Poet]

Green's case on Shin looks bad to me. And why is eclipse second in your suspicions list? Why is her meta read of Fleur being off the second worst thing that's happened in the thread? How do you feel it's forced? I want to hear your suspicions on eclipse from you, not kirsche.

It may be cynical of me to say, but the way eclipse has been stating her suspicions feels scummy.

I don't feel like posting unless it's worth my time, and most of it wasn't (if I'm posting about NICKNAMES and IRRELEVANT PAST GAMES, that means that the rest of you aren't doing much).

Like this. Eclipse's saying that others' lack of content has caused her to have little to post? Doesn't that seem like an easy excuse simply not to contribute?

Then we have Fleur, who's been coming up with all sorts of theories, yet eclipse decides to vote Fleur on the grounds that her re-read seemed too informed to be legitimate, that "first-time scum benefits from appearing inexperienced."

Essentially, eclipse claiming not to have issues with anyone's posts, except those of the most actively scumhunting poster, doesn't seem like a pro-town attitude to me at all.

Eclipse also mentioned that BBM was being too passive, but now that he's addressed that, I can't see how any of eclipse's actions could now be considered town.

I suppose that, if eclipse ends up flipping scum, I'll be able to safely believe all of what Fleur's been tossing out.

[FleurDeGlace]

Fleur, why is Eclipse not contributing worse than RD? A few posts not contributing in RVS don't mean much. It sucks that people don't always try to push things along in RVS, but the fact is that townies as well as scum don't try as much that early on when there isn't anything happening. As such things go, we've had a pretty short RVS actually.

Their cases are pretty much similar but I think eclipse's case is stronger because she is more willing to leave her vote on someone inactive and insisted on not moving her vote while she could point out that something seemed wrong to her about BigBadMarshmallow and I voting Refa.

Radiant Dragon had voted Shin

It was fairly obvious that she was simply waiting for Wen to get on before moving her vote (although she moved it later).

Actually, it wasn't. Also, Kopfjager did not seem like he was going to be posting anytime soon anyway so I think that it would have been better for eclipse to have her vote on someone who was around. Leaving a vote on someone inactive and who does not seem like he's going to post soon is a really convenient way to not contribute to the discussion at all.

Fleur, what was your train of thought here?

Shark Bait's post got me to look at eclipse's posts in more detail. I took eclipse's posts as content. When Shark Bait made his post, I went back to analyse eclipse's posts and realised that despite posting frequently near the start of day 1, her posts had very little content and focused more on non-relevant information or her posting about not wanting to shift her RVS vote.

I felt that eclipse had not contributed a lot despite having four posts in the thread already and that was another reason for finding her scummy. It was this point that tilted my stance towards eclipse.

I find it suspicious that you have made four posts so far and not posted much actual content or tried to follow up much of what you dislike happening in the game.

*cut out part of post*

##Unvote

##Vote: eclipse

Same case as with Radiant Dragon, I want to see more actual content and less voteparking since it seems like you're willing to votepark on Kopfjager than to follow up on your other cases.

My original case and vote on her.

Anything I added on afterwards will not explain why I decided she's my greatest scum read at the point of making that post.

[FleurDeGlace]

Oh crap, I forgot to complete the first part of my post. Moved on to typing out the rest of the post and forgot that I had left that aside momentarily.....

[FleurDeGlace]

Fleur, why is Eclipse not contributing worse than RD? A few posts not contributing in RVS don't mean much. It sucks that people don't always try to push things along in RVS, but the fact is that townies as well as scum don't try as much that early on when there isn't anything happening. As such things go, we've had a pretty short RVS actually.

Their cases are pretty much similar but I think eclipse's case is stronger because she is more willing to leave her vote on someone inactive and insisted on not moving her vote while she could point out that something seemed wrong to her about BigBadMarshmallow and I voting Refa.

Radiant Dragon had voted Shin without much of a reason but at least Shin seemed more poised in a position to respond to a pressure vote given the fact that he had already posted in RVS a few hours earlier.

EBWOP.

[Refa]

nobody wants to interrupt the SB and Refa show, obviously

It's rated 8.9/10, it's the best!

WRT Radiant Dragon's post:

-There have been people who have been inactive and done less than eclipse, yes. Eclipse is not one of those people, so I think it's a valid complaint.

-Can you point out scummy behavior Fleur has done rather simply calling otherwise townie things scummy because hey, scum could do it too?

-If it was so obvious that she was waiting for Wen to respond, then why did she move her vote (as you said yourself)?

-How is Fleur buddying with you if she still has you on her lynch priority? Additionally, I don't even get why you're voting SB, most of your complaints are directed at Fleur.

-What do you think about Shin?

WRT Green Poet's post:

-Actually, I didn't think you were not confident because you were SB's scumbuddy, rather as a lack of hesitancy to push people in general.

-Also not sure why you'd want to be labeled as newb town. Maybe it's just me, but in my first game I tried the exact opposite...

-I think you make a good point about Shin.

WRT Shinori's post:

-Didn't you read my vote on SB? Obviously he's scummier!

-Real talk, why do you think SB is scum (well, you said one of us, but I'm town, soooo....)? BTW, this is BBM's point, just put it here so it'd be more easy for Shinori to see.

-Huh? Everyone not listed was in the middle, with kirsche and Fleur being at the end for being townreads, but not obvious town like me. Sucks for them!

-What do you think of my Shin case?

WRT BBM's post:

-Agree with his comment on RD, I basically said the same thing myself.

WRT Boron's post:

-I didn't comment about it earlier since it felt like a coincidence, but Boron has made a lot more content since ED1 and STILL most of her posts have been focused on Shin. Why is that do you think Shin is town despite him doing nothing towny of worth no it definitely can't be that are you masons because then you should tell Shin to get his act together or are you scumbuddies? Seriously, I don't see how Shin is anything more than a Null Read for people, and your defense of him is pinging me a lot.

-First comment is a complaint at my word choice (refuge in audacity). Sorry, I didn't know you were Grassbridger.

-He generally tends to be more easy going and does stupid things in RVS as scum, like where in Semi-Precious where he voted himself.

-Already explained why Shin's RD vote was lacking in explanation. Maybe you should read my exchange with SB a little more.

-Already explained why his vote on Poly was a moot point, and that it could be standard RVS.

-tl,dr; Boron is focusing more on the tone of my case and semantics than reasons that I'm actually scum.

-Your point regarding Green Poet's complaint WRT to Shin is bad. I could claim scum as town, so whenever we see a scum claim, does that mean we should question whether the person is really scum or not? Yes, this isn't to the same degree, but my point is that we shouldn't be letting people get away with bad play just because a townie did it. Does this make Shin confirmed scum no, but until he makes a satisfactory reply or does something else that convinces me that he's town I'm not buying your Devil's Advocate defense.

-Why did you complain about Green having eclipse on her second most lynch priority and not me? The person you're voting for?

[Radiant Dragon]

Actually, it wasn't. Also, Kopfjager did not seem like he was going to be posting anytime soon anyway so I think that it would have been better for eclipse to have her vote on someone who was around. Leaving a vote on someone inactive and who does not seem like he's going to post soon is a really convenient way to not contribute to the discussion at all.

Shark Bait's post got me to look at eclipse's posts in more detail. I took eclipse's posts as content. When Shark Bait made his post, I went back to analyse eclipse's posts and realised that despite posting frequently near the start of day 1, her posts had very little content and focused more on non-relevant information or her posting about not wanting to shift her RVS vote.

I felt that eclipse had not contributed a lot despite having four posts in the thread already and that was another reason for finding her scummy. It was this point that tilted my stance towards eclipse.

But why was eclipse more suspicious than myself at that time? I understand that you claim that SB's post made you look more into eclipse, but that doesn't explain why her lack of content (keeping in mind that two of her posts were during RVS, and as such shouldn't be expected to be dripping with insight) was more worth a vote over my vote for Shin.

You claim that voteparking is scummy, but I don't see what's particularly scummy about trying to pressure Wen to post when she didn't have any strong scum reads at the time.

[Green Poet]

Oh, yeah, forgot to address this.

I don't like the bolded sentence, because it makes assumptions about what you think townies "should" do, and calls them scum because they "didn't do it". Just because "it makes sense for town to drop the jokes", why does it make you scum if you don't? I don't understand what's so bad about this.

Sorry for my generalizations. I'll try to elaborate.

The only suggested reason as to why it'd be reasonable for a townie to voteswitch during RVS is to gauge reactions. My assumption that townies should discontinue doing this and come clean once they're under suspicion may not constitute a good case by itself, but the fact that Shin decided to reply by spontaneously saying "I'll show you reactionary!" means that he not only deliberately defied this generalization, but decided to try and throw off Refa's observations.

Now, why would you avoid seriously defending yourself in such a position, and not give Refa a good reason to stop suspecting you? Just to get in some more shenanigans? At that point, the "what townies should do" speculation isn't truly speculation anymore.

[Green Poet]

Now, why would you avoid seriously defending yourself in such a position, and not give Refa a good reason to stop suspecting you? Just to get in some more shenanigans? At that point, the "what townies should do" speculation isn't truly speculation anymore.

Oops. Might not have been entirely clear here; by "you" I mean Shin, hypothetically.

[Radiant Dragon]

WRT Radiant Dragon's post:

-There have been people who have been inactive and done less than eclipse, yes. Eclipse is not one of those people, so I think it's a valid complaint.

-Can you point out scummy behavior Fleur has done rather simply calling otherwise townie things scummy because hey, scum could do it too?

-If it was so obvious that she was waiting for Wen to respond, then why did she move her vote (as you said yourself)?

-How is Fleur buddying with you if she still has you on her lynch priority? Additionally, I don't even get why you're voting SB, most of your complaints are directed at Fleur.

-What do you think about Shin?

- eclipse tends to be quiet early during NOC, unless that's changed since I've last played, so it seemed par for the course for her.

- Unfortunately no, I can't. That's why I haven't voted for Fleur yet, because I don't have a strong enough read on her. I don't have anything on her that I haven't stated already. I just feel that's she might be scum. Not very helpful, I know.

- I'm assuming she moved her vote because someone was scummy enough to justify doing so. She said as much in her vote for Fleur.

- I don't think Fleur is buddying with me. Not sure where you got that from. I said she might be buddying with SB.

- Shin's a null read to me. His reaction and OMGUS to my vote was pretty reasonable considering my reason for voting him was wrong.

[Radiant Dragon]

- Shin's a null read to me. His reaction and OMGUS to my vote was pretty reasonable considering my reason for voting him was wrong.

That should be were. The slight OCD in me can't let that go without correcting myself.

[Shinori]

Shinori: I switched my vote from Refa to RD last night, so I have no idea what your vote is about. You also say you don't really like Eclipse (but that she's not your top priority), and then denounce her wagon at the same time. Mind explaining? A lot of your stuff just seems really arbitrary. Like why do you think one of SB and Refa is scum?

I don't really see the contradiction that RD is pointing out in SB's posts. Additionally, even if it was there, he seems to be focusing a lot more on Fleur than him, for someone who has his vote on SB, and he's also trying to draw associative reads between SB and Fleur when neither of them have even flipped. Plus, if two people finding the same person suspicious in close succession was buddying, why not accuse me and Boron for similar stuff on his wagon?

Oh I'm silly.

##Unvote:

I feel dumb. I'm gonna go make sure I'm not am idiot on other things.

Also I kinda stated that my read on sb/refa was gut. x.x So idk what other reason you expect other than that, Something just pinging me. Not sure what it is. I'll revote in a bit.

[Sunwoo]

It may be cynical of me to say, but the way eclipse has been stating her suspicions feels scummy.

*snipped for length*

Fair enough, but why didn't you mention all this in your original post when you expressed suspicion of eclipse? When you first mentioned your suspicion of eclipse, you mostly mentioned eclipse's meta on Fleur and how it sounded forced, and everything kirsche said. Again, I do NOT want to hear kirsche's opinions for your suspicions on eclipse. I want to hear yours.

As for your suspicions, I can see why you would be suspicious of her, but I am not yet reading any scum intent from her.

WRT Boron's post:

-I didn't comment about it earlier since it felt like a coincidence, but Boron has made a lot more content since ED1 and STILL most of her posts have been focused on Shin. Why is that do you think Shin is town despite him doing nothing towny of worth no it definitely can't be that are you masons because then you should tell Shin to get his act together or are you scumbuddies? Seriously, I don't see how Shin is anything more than a Null Read for people, and your defense of him is pinging me a lot.

I don't necessarily think Shin is town. I think the cases on him are crap. There is a big difference.

-First comment is a complaint at my word choice (refuge in audacity). Sorry, I didn't know you were Grassbridger.

-He generally tends to be more easy going and does stupid things in RVS as scum, like where in Semi-Precious where he voted himself.

This has nothing to with being Grassbridger. I find it suspicious that you're taking such a minor action and using "big words" like "refuge in audacity" to make your case sound like it has more merit than it really does. Also, how is this any different from what he does in RVS in general?

-Already explained why Shin's RD vote was lacking in explanation. Maybe you should read my exchange with SB a little more.

-Already explained why his vote on Poly was a moot point, and that it could be standard RVS.

I did read your exchange with SB, and don't agree with it one bit. Maybe you should not make assumptions about what I am and am not reading.

-tl,dr; Boron is focusing more on the tone of my case and semantics than reasons that I'm actually scum.

Your case on Shin is ass. "Making a big deal out of nothing" isn't something that focuses on tone and semantics. I think you're using big words to make nothing look bad.

-Your point regarding Green Poet's complaint WRT to Shin is bad. I could claim scum as town, so whenever we see a scum claim, does that mean we should question whether the person is really scum or not? Yes, this isn't to the same degree, but my point is that we shouldn't be letting people get away with bad play just because a townie did it. Does this make Shin confirmed scum no, but until he makes a satisfactory reply or does something else that convinces me that he's town I'm not buying your Devil's Advocate defense.

-Why did you complain about Green having eclipse on her second most lynch priority and not me? The person you're voting for?

What does your first point even mean, and what does it even have to do with anything. Green Poet's remark about "what townies should be doing" reeked an awful lot like what Grassbridger said to eclipse once that got on her nerves, "what townie's SHOULD be doing", and voting her because something she had done did not confirm to his thoughts of what a townie should do. Instead of looking at things that townies "should" do, where is the scum intent in what Shin did?

Also, what the fuck do you even mean about Green having eclipse as lynch priority instead of you? What does this have to do with anything? When Green made his post, I felt that his reasons for suspecting eclipse were not well explained enough for me to understand why she was second on his list. What does this have to do with you?

Oh, yeah, forgot to address this.

Sorry for my generalizations. I'll try to elaborate.

The only suggested reason as to why it'd be reasonable for a townie to voteswitch during RVS is to gauge reactions. My assumption that townies should discontinue doing this and come clean once they're under suspicion may not constitute a good case by itself, but the fact that Shin decided to reply by spontaneously saying "I'll show you reactionary!" means that he not only deliberately defied this generalization, but decided to try and throw off Refa's observations.

Now, why would you avoid seriously defending yourself in such a position, and not give Refa a good reason to stop suspecting you? Just to get in some more shenanigans? At that point, the "what townies should do" speculation isn't truly speculation anymore.

Again, where is the scum intent in what he did? I honestly think what you're observing means nothing and this whole "townies should do this" thing is not getting anywhere.

[Shin]

##Unvote

##Vote: Shin

Come at me, bro.

You know who else came at you? My Mo-... wait!

Refa, you flip flopped quite a lot on what my vote on you actually meant. You then seem to transition to the logic that my RD vote lacked suitable reasoning. However, RD's initial vote on me actually had no reasoning, the justification came later and was incredibly weak. A vote with that little basis clearly warrants being looked at with suspicion. Refa, nobody suggested it was any form of reaction test, you're tunneling me pretty hard, bro. You later accept that RD looks pretty bad, but apparently that's only worth mentioning after people start taking issues with your read on me.

Green doesn't seem to know how I play, serious is boring! Again, the basis of the read is the initial reply to Refa, which I'm struggling to fathom how it can constitute his main read... gasp! It's because there aren't any! Green seems to have spent his entire time agreeing with Refa and focusing on me. Who knew I was so popular?

This duo rather intent on having it out for me, they're after my heart!

RD's back-tracking looked bad, and he literally says nothing about Fleur other than umming and ahing. His retraction of the vote on me seems a little off, but with the evidence presented to him, there's not really much he could have done other than that.

[FleurDeGlace]

Yo Fleur! If you think Shin is defending Flan, then does that mean that you think Flan is scummy?

I don't like how Refa collected votes that fast over what I can see as a legitimate oversight. Until RD pointed it out, I didn't notice it, either. Of those, Shin's feels like he's still in RVS and BBM's/Fleur's is taking things way too seriously.

*cut namelist*

This little kerfuffle has moved people into various directions, but not enough to warrant me moving my second RVS vote. Yet.

I felt that eclipse could have gathered a case together at this point but chose not to in order to keep her vote on Kopfjager. She herself has admitted, in that same post that things were already going somewhere in the game so I find it scummy that she still does not want to move her vote at that point.

Radiant Dragon, on the other hand, didn't give an actual reason for voting Shin. "Let's see where this goes" does not satisfy me because his vote does not seem to be an RVS vote, nor did he express suspicion of Shin before.

##Vote: Radiant Dragon

What's your reason?

Well, I agree with your point about Radiant Dragon. More because he had mentioned that it is fine to move on quickly from RVS posts. His sudden change of votes onto Shin without much explanation and with only a:

Let's see where this goes.

feels slightly hypocritical to me. Feels like an RVS or meaningless vote with the excuse of a "Moving on from RVS" to votepark onto Shin.

##Unvote

##Vote: Radiant Dragon

My original case on you was for the way you moved to vote Shin and the fact that I thought the vote was meaningless, similar to my case on eclipse. Both of you had also had little content at that point in time.

The tiebreaker was the Shin vs Kopfjager comparison. Shin was in a better position to respond while Kopfjager looked like he probably might not respond at all. In addition, eclipse's willingness to vote Kopfjager when she could have followed up on actual reads at that point pinged me off.