mafia New Arkham Mafia - SK wins - Gratz to everyone who had fun!

[Zkirsche]

"duh huh you misread something dumbass go read again"

Like honestly, I want to reiterate this again because it's so big for me. It's borderline insulting to keep doing this and doesn't make me want to do it any more. I'm calling you out eclipse: what have I missed that's so important that will change my view of the game? If it's some hidden crumb then I'm not sorry for not seeing it.

Also SB, to add to the eclipse case, I have already mentioned how I think most of her stuff is graspy, but I think it's mostly just fluff. You could just writing off the ITP spec stuff as fluff as well, really, but there's stuff like "RVS is not logical. The votes before yours should've made that extremely obvious!" which I just don't see the point of responding to. She analyses her RVS wagon and gets like nothing from it and it's just like "why bother"? It just serves to pad out her posts which is what I feel a lot of her ITP speccing is.

Thinking more about it and being OMGUSy I don't rate her vote on me either, it feels like she's voting me for:

-Being snarky

-Her bad version of my meta

-"Not reading the thread"

-Defending the Marth point?

It feels like she just handwaved my Marth points in general really just so she can keep up the suspicion on me.

[Zkirsche]

I would say that there's no reason for town to have two numbers roles but then I remembered it's a bastard game.

Anyway tl;dr the solution to my snark is to stop saying I haven't read the thread when I have.

[charlie_]

I agree that the ITP focus has been a big part of her posts, but I can understand her wanting to shut them down quickly as a Town Numbers role, and I didn't feel like there was a lot of fluff in her posts when I read them before. I'm also getting the feeling that eclipse's vote on you is (at least partly) because she's annoyed at you, which isn't really linked to alignment which makes it harder to read.

I would like her to explain why she didn't out the numbers earlier though (and also for Weapons to do the same if he's not messing around).

[Izhuark]

Okay i will go to sleep for today, i surely wont be here for the end of the day so good night evryone ! i would have love to make a logical vote before that happen but once again i don't have anything worth reproaching at anyone for now so consider my vote to be random...

[Zkirsche]

Why does numbers have anythign to do with it. I go into most games assuming that there will more than likely be an ITP but I don't go hunting for them and fabricating ridiculous tells to accuse people of them. What do you think of the parts I highlighted which are fluff?

[Rapier]

Something seems different about Rapier's play compared to his usual playstyle. Also, I really feel like Rapier is just trying to make it seem like he's actively contributing when he's not. There's quite a bit of excessive statements, comments and elaborations that are pretty much fluff.

Also, he went on a huge 180 degrees with respect to Wen Yang and whether or not Wen Yang's vote was an OMGUS at all. He initially argued against Blitz, saying that Wen Yang was also OMGUSing. However, he quickly reversed his opinion saying that he didn't think Wen Yang was not OMGUSing at all?

@Rapier: Care to explain this sudden change in your opinions? Also, tell me more about your thought process with respect to Wen Yang.

Rapier seems to be pretty jumpy as well and that whole paragraph about his defensiveness catches my attention. It feels like an overreaction and the tone strikes me off as being unnecessarily jumpy and protective.

Fair. To be honest, my memory is so bad I can't remember much about Wen Yang, but this is what I remember:

Izhuark's post explicitely says they were voting clipsey because she was voting them. Wen Yang says he doesn't have any clue as to who he should vote, and chooses Blitz. The former case is clearly an OMGUS, the latter is possibly one but I can't say for certain whether he did so because Blitz voted him or not. I don't think, and I've never implied as such, that Wen Yang's action was scummy (it's a null tell to me). I just pointed out to Blitz that it was a double-standard to ignore Wen Yang while paying full attention to Izhuark, when their cases are similar.

Now that I think about it, it's funny that they did not address Wen Yang later, at all. I gave him time to do so and he didn't.

Also, your point regarding Terrador is good. He says we're being participative, yet you had only two posts or so at the time (not demeriting your content, by the way). I get the vibe that he's trying to buddy up with us, and it bothers me.

Anyway, I repeat: If my content is shallow, show how it is shallow. It's expected that it isn't top quality material due to RVS phase, but merely repeating I'm not actively contributing and full of fluff without evidence is not very productive itself.

Your reply toward Kirsche isn't good because they did not merely vote you because you said I am playing differently. You made the same mistake that you implied he made.

@Blitz

Why is Wen Yang ok in your book but Izhuark wasn't ok in your book? I don't recall you addressing this, other than saying you did not have time to address Wen Yang before. You should've had enough time by now, though.

@Weapons

This post is kind of fishy and opportunistic. First you say my content has the same issues Mancer points out, then you go and agree with Kirsche that Mancer is making it all up. How did that 180º turn in your opinions arrive?

---

I'm content on keeping my vote on Marth. I agree with clipsey that his logic has been inconsistent and that his play has been "lazy" (that is, his votes don't have much effort backing them). Her point about him ignoring Izhuark's case is valid, and his vote on Mancer and comments regarding Kirsche makes it more explicit to me. He misrepresents Kirsche (he did not vote Mancer merely in basis of the first paragraph from his post) for an easy, lazy read, while ironically agreeing with his points (compare Marth's post with Kirsche's post, they do share points) despite saying his case was bad, and sheeps clipsey's reasoning about Kirsche's apathy. My impression of him is that he wants to settle on a case and guarantee his survival.

[MancerNecro]

So many posts right after waking up isn't good for my brain. I'm going to reread all the new posts again because nothing stuck in my mind (probably because I am too sleepy and groggy after just waking up).

A few things to address first though:

@Snike: I don't see the smear attempt?

I'm not sure what to make of the two numbers claims. I'm inclined to believe that both numbers could be on opposing alignments but this game is bastard so it is equally likely that both numbers are town. I don't doubt the accuracy of the numbers though since such absurd numbers (7 anti-towns) are unlikely to have been fabricated.

@Rapier: Fair enough explanation. Your recent post also seems much better to me and I agree with some of the other posters that your tone being off isn't inherently scummy. Also, I admit that my statement regarding Wen Yang was a misunderstanding on my part.

##Unvote: Rapier pending a reread. Probably going to look at Marth is slightly more detail since many players have mentioned stuff about him.

[Rapier]

Regarding my Rapier case:

a) The fluff I was talking about is the needless use of more and decorative words in his defense of himself and case on other players. It feels artificial and forced to me. I interpret that as Rapier trying to sweeten up his lack of content by making his sentences and paragraphs seem longer.

c) His jumping as is in his post mentioning his defensiveness. I feel a panicky tone from that post which pings me that Rapier got slightly riled up.

Oh yeah, about this too. Couldn't the argument in "a)" be applied to pretty much every post I make in Mafia? I've always been a person with issues being direct and short. How is this a factor that adds up to my scumminess now? Also, regarding c), I admit I was defensive but I don't see how it was bad?? When people engage with someone's position, it is expected that they defend themselves. I was asking why doing so was a guilt tell, and yes it does bother me because it's like blaming someone for doing something natural and null of alignment.

Your read on Marth is also a misrepresentation and an exaggeration (nothing leads me to think they were going to vote for Kirsche even though they did not find him scummy. His post says otherwise!)... It reminds me of scum!Mancer, when he fabricates a reason why someone is scum, presses them through that logic and attempts a mislynch. It's been two misrepresentations in a row, doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. I think Marth is worse, though.

Also, Weapons, what do you mean clipsey's numbers are legit? Do you also have a role that tells numbers? Because it feels odd for two people of the same alignment to share the same role power that tells them the same information... Yes, I am role speccing right now. I'm also skeptical as for why clipsey did not say about numbers sooner, isn't that the most logical thing to do as numbers? Why the hesitation, then?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I have a numbers role that says that there is one other numbers role and the rest are non-numbers roles.

[Bluedoom]

Engineering a lynch? Trying to look after a scumbuddy? It looks too blunt to be either, but usually town tunnel vision comes from something substantial--even if it's a wrong reason, it's still a reason.

This is what I was referring to wrt Terra. There's this kind of exaggeration of what Blitz did which really feels weird. I mean w/e Blitz was doing didn't really imply anything of that sort and its weird to go into those assumptions.

This is pretty much why I am struggling to care, just apply it to the rest of the game. We have posts like #113 less than 12 hours into this game and it's painful. Especially when that one is particular is almost all just super grasping. I guess it's Ed1 but seriously.

Don't want to suspect Rapier for playing better than he usually does. Being more thorough and contributing more is not scummy. Mancer is basically voting Rapier for playing differently and fabricated a reason for doing so. What makes you think it's Rapier trying to seem townie as scum rather than Rapier trying hard as town? He also didn't contradict himself on Wen as far as I can tell so ??? ##Vote: MancerNecro

SB's vote is sensible and I look forward to a response.

THe thing with you, kirsche, is that you didn't even specify what parts of Mancer's case were painting Rapier in bad light. If anything you sounded like you disagreed with Mancer and that's why you scumread him. There's a difference between our cases. You make statements like "He fabricated reasons. Oh and Wen didn't contradict himself" but you don't cite exactly how those statements are true. Thus is looks like you're just bringing out random statements but not backing them up, which IS scummy. And that isn't the only part of my case on you anyway, because in that post you weren't contributing anything more than the Mancer case and you just agreed/disagreed with people and complained about how you couldn't care about that game. That IS bad and we've seen players on this forum who tend to act condescending/snarky(hell even anger) as scum to feint contribution: like Elieson/Shinori/that one game Obviam said he was too busy playing video games to care about the game. Why would I give you a pass for that?

[Darros]

Darros, what do you think of players other than Rapier, since your appear to have no opinions on any of the other slots (aside from perhaps Blitz)?

At that point mostly null reads on people. Izuhark was hard into the RP, seems like newbtown to me. Admittedly though there was a lot of writing in his posts and I may have skimmed some of it. I know I shouldn't but like I typically don't have All Day All Night to be on the computer anymore so... No one else even seemed memorable off the top of my head. Like it's just mostly a game of "who's scumhunting". Hard to get real opinions on players when there are only three or so pages of activity, plus I'm literally a year off playing so I've lost all my metagaming information :(

Man, why does this always happen? Whenever someone starts getting defensive, people come barging in and say "you're being defensive THIS IS SCUMMY". It makes no sense. Yes, I was defensive. In one post. I clarified some stuff for SB and justified my actions because they were put into question, there's nothing wrong with this. If you guys rend me incapable of defending myself then there's absolutely nothing I can do.

@Darros

Do say how my content has been subpar and unproductive, then. When SB engaged me, I told him what I had done that held the merit of being productive. This doesn't mean I'm top player, of course, but to say my Marth vote and my posts regarding Izhuark were unproductive is an exaggeration. If there's anything wrong with my content, throw me a bone and let's see what I can do about it.

It's not like you're "guaranteed scum omg turbolynch 9000", but it's not exactly townie behavior. It looked like you were acting like you were up against a wall and got really defensive when you didn't exactly have to. And the big problem was you making your actions look way bigger than what you did. You'd literally made two posts at that point and then felt the need for some reason to make a list of "productive things" you'd done so far.

It's not that your posts are "subpar and unproductive", but thanks for putting words in my mouth. Your post just seemed to exaggerate what you did. Like making a vote in the early stages of the game isn't exactly a huge deal. Congrats, anyone can do that. And really, everyone should do that. It's not exactly a magnificent accomplishment. The OMGUS thing was also early game voting. It's worth looking into, but pointing out that you did it twice seems kind of extra. And pointing out town reads when you're not asked isn't exactly productive.

Don't want to suspect Rapier for playing better than he usually does. Being more thorough and contributing more is not scummy. Mancer is basically voting Rapier for playing differently and fabricated a reason for doing so. What makes you think it's Rapier trying to seem townie as scum rather than Rapier trying hard as town? He also didn't contradict himself on Wen as far as I can tell so ???

I don't think that's what I saw from Mancer's vote. Mancer seemed to say that Rapier is trying to make it look like he's contributing more than he actually is, which I agree with. It looks like there's some meta involved but what really makes it explicit is this line

Also, I really feel like Rapier is just trying to make it seem like he's actively contributing when he's not. There's quite a bit of excessive statements, comments and elaborations that are pretty much fluff.

I'm not sure if this is intentional misrep or just something meta related because "voting Rapier for playing differently" ((which is true but Rapier isn't playing well I'd say)) but it seems weird.

aside: can I get a definition of the term fearmongering

Care to explain which anti-town you want to hit?

As for me, I'll hold off on voting again until I get a better idea of what's going on.

##Unvote

I feel this post is a very "didnt read the thread" type of thing. Do you have any comments on players in the game?

I agree that the ITP focus has been a big part of her posts, but I can understand her wanting to shut them down quickly as a Town Numbers role, and I didn't feel like there was a lot of fluff in her posts when I read them before. I'm also getting the feeling that eclipse's vote on you is (at least partly) because she's annoyed at you, which isn't really linked to alignment which makes it harder to read.

I would like her to explain why she didn't out the numbers earlier though (and also for Weapons to do the same if he's not messing around).

Well if there's a cult, which she said there is ((I'm assuming she knows this as fact?)) shutting that down I'd say is good intent. The way she worded it to me made it look like she was aiming to hit cult leader, but if we hit scum that would be just as good. She doesn't seem scummy to me.

I'm not sure what to make of the two numbers claims. I'm inclined to believe that both numbers could be on opposing alignments but this game is bastard so it is equally likely that both numbers are town. I don't doubt the accuracy of the numbers though since such absurd numbers (7 anti-towns) are unlikely to have been fabricated.

It would be pretty easy to fake a second numbers claim by just agreeing with the first numbers post, so I'm not exactly inclined to 100% believe Weapons. Hard to tell with a bastard game though.

[Bluedoom]

@SB: Please tell me how your Rapier case was similar to Mancer's, because I'm not seeing it atm. Also, Terrador had other content like his reads on Mancer/Rapier and his questions towards other players, what are you suggesting then? Also since Wen hasn't done anything since ED1, why would my opinion of him change? I just can't stick my vote for long on someone who isn't going to bother to play the game, maybe get him vigged. 8)

My vote is sticking on Mancer because in his last post he didn't even mention a new scumread(unless you count me but then he's not pushing it) and he's waffling on his number spec because ???

[Bluedoom]

Also I wasn't sure why my role was the way it was but with cult in the setup I can see it now.

So I'll throw this here: Forget it, you're not lynching me today. I'm totally an anti-cult role, and I'd rather not claim to save myself, but I will if push comes to shove. And I'm saying this now because I don't want it to be a situation at LD1 where I claim and then we end up turboing someone. Yes its that townie.

[Bluedoom]

And also because it'd be dumb if I was the only player focused on for this entire phase.

[Darros]

I'm kind of not comfortable with Kirsche right now. I feel like he misrepped Mancer when it came to how Mancer voted for Rapier, and then got really salty and snarky.

Once again people join in on the inability to meta me. I have been remarkably apathetic for every mafia game recently. When the first time you open a mafia thread you see posts like yours it doesn't help.

This is self-meta, which isn't really that cool. And then it's just kind of attacking eclipse for being suspicious of him.

Basically like the way I feel is that eclipse is finding kirsche scummy and kirsche is going on the attack at eclipse instead of scumhunting, or pointing out reasons why eclipse is scummy other than meta related things. I don't feel like eclipse's ITP hunting is really scum intent.

I'm also not really happy with Marth. I feel this post is pretty bad. It feels kind of sheepy, reiterating things that were already said by kirsche ((that I already stated I didn't agree with)) while in the same post at the beginning he says that kirsche was voting Mancer for the wrong reasons. What. I also feel the term "jumpy" was misrepped, Rapier's opinions weren't jumpy, his attitude was when he got defensive, and we all saw that.

In the same post, Marth attacked Kirsche and said he complained about the game. That didn't really seem prevalent until Kirsche started fighting with eclipse, so it looks like Marth is making a bigger deal out of Kirsche complaining than it actually was at the time. And my case against Rapier was different than Mancer's.

I also don't like the end of this post. It really looks like voting Mancer for your own agenda. Mancer unvoted, said he was going to reread ((so you never gave him the chance to come up with anything new yet since he hasn't posted since then)) and you jumped the gun on him. You can't come up with scumreads without having read the thread, you know.

Cut: I was about to vote for Marth because he doesn't look good right now, but those softclaim posts make me uneasy. It could easily be a lie but I'm not feeling 100% on "must lynch Marth".Could do without the attitude, and the focus on "I'm anti-cult" seems convenient now that the cult was brought up. But I'm not sold on lynching Marth anyway, I'll just vote Kirsche. But please, don't flatter yourself Marth, you're definitely not the only person that's been talked about this phase.

##Unvote

##Vote: Kirsche

[Darros]

PS I work 9-5 tomorrow and then am going out after work so I might not be around all day err day tomorrow, but I should be back before phase end ((It's 2:30 AM for me, I'm at GMT-3))

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

What can you tell us about your role, Marth?

[Wen Yang]

##Unvote for now. I need to read all the six pages that sprouted up while I was gone >_< (Not much internet on sunday)

Also, I can confirm one bit of Eclipse's numbers: Something like a cult exists in this game, at least it should, otherwise I'd be useless.

[eclipse]

Time is something that should be saved.

Even the time that you manipulate.

Linking posts is one way to cut the walls down. You took my words and missed the context. Here's some context. That sort of mentality is someone whose goal is survival. I'm aware that surviving is what most sane players (i.e. not me) are interested in, but it's also important for those whose only way of winning is themselves. That's why I sat on him for as long as I did. And this was my ultimate conclusion.

I'm glad that you're reading my stuff, but I don't like that you're harping on one small part of what I've done during the day phase, which ultimately went nowhere. While your sentiment about not hunting independents would normally be something I'd agree with, this game is special. My role PM implies that alignments can be changed, and not just by the cult (reference). I think mafia may fall under this clause, but I'd only get a "tee-hee~!" from Bal if I asked (blame the wording). That's why I don't care which anti-town goes down today, though I'd be happiest if the cult leader died (because I suspect that they're immune to the alignment shifts hinted at in my role PM. . .but this is just my gut speaking, take this as you will).

If the ITP thing is the only issue you have with me, then I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill, and such things bother me (check the halfway point).

I would like her to explain why she didn't out the numbers earlier though (and also for Weapons to do the same if he's not messing around).

I wanted to deal with the RVS wagon, as well as getting as much info as possible out. I've already said quite a bit about my role PM, and revealing those numbers was a huge risk (which I refuse to expound on).

(Bal would find a way to take a normally passive role and turn it into a gigantic coin flip)

I really don't like how most of the game is going, so. . .

Everyone: What are your thoughts on everyone else?

Weapons confuses me - his role posting is useful, but I can't see his scumhunting logic (if there is any), and that's interfering with my read on him. Not scumreading Darros/Snike/SB, though I wish they had more time to say stuff. Miraculously not scumreading Rapier, either, as his recent content is a lot better. Can't read Mancer because he's only concentrated on a few people. Several other people (Blitz/Crysta/Terrador/Hunter Nightblood/Poly) need to come back, and Iris needs to exist. Kinda wish Izhuark wouldn't disappear, but c'est la vie. I won't argue with the timing of Marth's claim, but I have no idea why Wen chimed in, too. Wen, READS ON EVERYONE, along with logic, kthx.

Until then, kirsche's picking on one thing in my entire posting history is weird in a scummy way, so I'm happy with my vote. I want comments from everyone else to help my reads - focusing on one or two people doesn't help me at all!

[MancerNecro]

Yeah, I'm trying to keep on top of the game but I'm at work now. Expect a post when I'm home and have the luxury of time to make one.

[Balcerzak]

Just got off of work, I'll be running the votals before I go to sleep. Iris will almost certainly be being replaced, I haven't seen hide nor hair of her in any avenue I've tried to reach her. I don't know if I'll have time to get that done tonight still, or if getting her sub in at the end of D1 is fair to them, it might just wait till twilight, although if you have a strong opinion either way, express it to me IN YOUR ROLE PM, to avoid clutter in the thread.

[Balcerzak]

I suppose I should interrupt your fun for an (ir)regularly scheduled votals:

Being voted [number of votes]: voted by

Crysta [1]: Blitz

Blitz [1]: Terrador

Marth [5]: Rapier, SB, Crysta, Weapons, kirsche

Mancer [2]: Snike, Marth

Wen [1]: Izhuark

kirsche [2]: eclipse, Darros

Not Voting [5]: Poly, Iris, Mancer, Wen, Hunter

If I've misplaced your (un)vote, please bring it to my attention, I'm only human.

Contacting sub about replacing Iris is in progress.

Going to put a countdown prominently advertising phase end somewhere visible.

Like HERE. And also in the OP.

If someone knows of something embeddable in forums, point me that direction too.

[Izhuark]

my bad i tough the end was a today but it was tomorrow so i'm still here and will try to finally grasp on how scumreading work. I'll go read the historic of evryone and say what i think about them and say if i find something suspicious that wasn't already said.

[Terrador]

Got a minor wall in the works, but zombies is getting in the way. Posting tomorrow; prodge.

[Crysta]

My internet is probably gonna suck for the next two days (I'll be at the beach), but here goes...

The opinions I offered earlier haven't changed overmuch, and the opinions I failed to mention earlier have roughly remained the same, too.

Do not find Mancer scummy for finding unusual things unusual and voting accordingly in D1, even if I don't agree with it. The "manufactured" case against him is comprised of the same things other people have found worrying (including me, but perhaps less so).

I do get an apathy read on kirsche and it's the same one I got on him in the last game I played with him, which isn't promising considering how that turned out. That said, I agree with him that survival instincts aren't exactly compelling enough evidence to suggest someone is an ITP. Not dying is pretty much important to every role in this game... hopefully, bastard or not. I don't think it's enough to vote eclipse (because she is contributing even if she's putting too much emphasis on it) but I don't blame kirsche for continuing to find it wrong.

Marth softclaimed, declared we weren't gonna lynch him today because of it, and told us we were dumb if we only focused on him. Since my vote remains on him and that doesn't compel me to immediately change it, I second Weapons's question.

Wen needs to say stuff, especially considering his last post.

You can safely assume I haven't found anything particularly worrisome about the other players (sb./darros/snike/terra) yet. I wonder where Blitz ran off to, though; I assume he's just gotten busy because right now is a stark contrast to his activity earlier in the thread.

If I were to make a list, it'd still be Marth > Rapier = People not contributing yet > People contributing. I am not sold on the Mancer or kirsche wagons.