mafia New Arkham Mafia - SK wins - Gratz to everyone who had fun!

[Crysta]

And forgive my sudden font changes because I type this shit out on wordpad/notepad lol. Fuck forums.

[SB.]

I'm busy for the next few hours, but I don't really like how Blitz has been around in other threads but hasn't even poked his head in this thread. Get in here.

[SB.]

Why does numbers have anythign to do with it. I go into most games assuming that there will more than likely be an ITP but I don't go hunting for them and fabricating ridiculous tells to accuse people of them. What do you think of the parts I highlighted which are fluff?

With how badly the numbers seem stacked against us, I can understand why eclipse would specifically want to remove the Cult Leader first - we really can't afford to lose any more members. And while I can kind of see how you would see parts of her first content post as fluff, I don't really think it's a big issue.

What Darros posted about Rapier is making me want to move my vote back to where it was, but I need more time to think it over.

@SB: Please tell me how your Rapier case was similar to Mancer's, because I'm not seeing it atm. Also, Terrador had other content like his reads on Mancer/Rapier and his questions towards other players, what are you suggesting then? Also since Wen hasn't done anything since ED1, why would my opinion of him change? I just can't stick my vote for long on someone who isn't going to bother to play the game, maybe get him vigged. 8)

My vote is sticking on Mancer because in his last post he didn't even mention a new scumread(unless you count me but then he's not pushing it) and he's waffling on his number spec because ???

Both of our cases were about Rapier trying to look like he was being more productive than he actually was. I'm not suggesting that Terrador is suspicious, but I don't really think that questioning like that is content.

If Marth really is a Shrink (or someone else is a Shrink or Safeguard) they should target me tonight. I am not explaining this.

I'm out of time.

[Zkirsche]

@eclipse: I know you can link, but if you want to bring up small parts of a wall (which I did) I'm not going to link to the whole post. Generally I quote an important part of the post then discuss the rest of the post.

you don't cite exactly how those statements are true.

I think you'll find that I did:

What makes you think it's Rapier trying to seem townie as scum rather than Rapier trying hard as town?

The reason it's fabricated is because there is no real way of discerning this. This is implicit. What is also implicit in the next line is that Rapier in no way changed his mind regarding Wen's OMGUS vote and thus the pressure is put on Mancer to find where he did so.

that post you weren't contributing anything more than the Mancer case

I needed to produce much more than that? I keep my reads genuine because I am town, so I'm not going to forge scumreads on people just so I have more content. It was the start of D1 and most of what was there was null, there were a few points of attack which I disagreed/agreed with an I explained why if necessary, and I had a few townreads which I was not going to share for the sake of it. Again, if I didn't comment on something it is because I didn't find anything particularly interesting or scummy.

The whole "not contributing" thing definitely doesn't apply now, am I still scummy and why? For getting angry at people (including you)evoking one of my biggest pet peeves?

Not particularly convinced by Marth but in the interests of not having a repeat of DBZ mafia I will give him a chance. This does not mean you should not respond to the above, your recent posts only really serve to push your one scum read and keep yourself alive.

##Unvote

This is self-meta

Self-meta isn't scummy. I have no idea how long I've harped on at you about this, but it remains to be true. Someone makes a false assumption about my playstyle, I counteract said assumption. If you desire proof then I was pretty damn motivated for FE DLC mafia despite being a vanilla and have been plenty motivated in my past few scum games (Note: not posting much does not equal not motivated). Sure, some people can change their meta on a whim, but that only serves to discredit the meta read itself as well.

kirsche is going on the attack at eclipse instead of scumhunting

The two aren't exactly mutually exclusive you know. Regardless I have been commenting/questioning other people and publicly(as well as privately) forming reads on people such as Rapier so if the intent to scumhunt is not clear then I apologise but really this is what you get. I would like to clarify that I was wary of eclipse long before she voted me.

You took my words and missed the context.

I read the context again, still don't really think it changes my argument much. There's definitely an apologetic tone in his posts, but that's still perfectly normal from a newbie and even if you interpret it as scummy it doesn't really indicate being independent. Tbh i was more calling out logic like this and was trying to discourage you doing it more because it's silly and again, you know better.

I don't like that you're harping on one small part of what I've done during the day phase

It does not feel like one small part of what you've done this phase, but regardless, ITP speccing is not the only thing I have criticised you for. I believe you are padding your posts with needless explanation and analysis which "ultimately go nowhere", see #175 on page 9 for more detail on that because it seems like you missed it. For more recent examples of padding, your finalised paragraph on "everyone else" doesn't really come to any conclusions aside from "weapons is confusing, everyone else should post more" in paragraph form.

##Vote: eclipse

There's more to my case than ITP speccing, and while ITP speccing once or twice is fine you were doing it for like the first 36 hours of the day which is too much to simply handwave as paranoid townie imo.

which isn't promising considering how that turned out.

Hey I was town in that game. I don't like how you think my recent posts are apathetic though, even if it's anger-driven there's still some form of care I'm putting into these posts.

There is more to my eclipse case than the ITP spec criticism, what do you make of those points?

{to Rapier}It's not that your posts are "subpar and unproductive"
{...}
{about Rapier}(which is true but Rapier isn't playing well I'd say)

I do not blame Rapier in the slightest for getting annoyed at people accusing him because my first thoughts on the cases on him were that people were just harping on him for playing more actively and actively trying to defend himself. Remember that this is the guy that's been getting dayvigged an awful lot recently and after that I'd be much more defensive and active so that it doesn't happen again, yet people are pushing him for it.

The whole "subpar and unproductive" thing isn't putting words into your mouth either, if you vote someone you imply that their posts could be more beneficial to the town. It just feels like you're throwing dirt on him for wanting to know what he could do better with his posts. With this and you comments regarding my "lack of scumhunting" it feels like you're very eager to impress by having these absurdly high standards for everyone's posts when in reality you only have those standards for people who are on the backfoot already. What do you think of Weapons' incredibly concise posts? Is he scum for not having 10000 points in every post?

Don't really have anything else to say. I have 5-6 townreads that I'm not outing (although some are obvious like Rapier).

[Crysta]

There is more to my eclipse case than the ITP spec criticism, what do you make of those points?

I can see the padding/fluff, but personally I see that from town half the time as well during D1. It's not pinging my scumdar yet. But if I have to try to figure out her RP fluff like it's some sort of riddle in-lieu of trying to get reads on everyone else I think my eyes are going to glaze over. I can't see that being fun.

Probably shouldn't have called you apathetic though (it was mostly my initial reaction); you are paying attention.

God why am I still awake.

[Zkirsche]

So I decided to have a big box of stuff to show -exactly- how much eclipse has gone on about ITP speccing this game. That way you all can see for yourselves how out of hand it was when I first questioned it (this is still not all of my case though before someone mistakenly says it is again).

#113 is where it all begins with the Izhuark accusation, the logic of which I have already questioned. Reminder that most comments in that post are virtually useless in regards to the game state.

Two kind of unnecessary posts follow and then #120 which is more elaboration to Izhuark regarding her logic.

#134 is next, it further elaborates on the Izhuark accusation, implies that she's wary of Terrador being ITP because of the quote and then a poor meta read on me.

In #139 she doesn't really go into the ITP speccing per se, but while she claims that her Marth case is not an attack on Izhuark, in reality discrediting all the Izhuark cases does further, albeit implicitly, the agenda she was getting at earlier. Considering this is the first real piece of scumhunting from her all game, I am not impressed, especially when the attack mostly stems from a disagreement in logic regarding new players.

Big attempt to justify all the speccing in #160 and attack the people(well, me in particular) who are getting tired of the ITP spec.

#163 and #165 clarify more on the ITPs, again pushing the "let's chase after them all phase agenda". #167 briefly goes into ITP theory but leaves out an important part of ITP theory regarding how we should push them, which is alonside actual scumhunting, which I think has been lacking on her part.

There you have it. The remainder of her posts are spent attacking me, defending herself and coming to non-conclusions on the rest of the game. Why is all this ITP spec scummy? Because it gives off an air of caring about taking out town's enemies when in reality there's nothing stopping scum who are informed about the existence of a cult somehow, probably through numbers, from faking this. Darros is already writing eclipse off as town for wanting to get rid of the cult leader when mafia wants to get rid of them almost as much as town do and would gladly take the credit in hunting them down. Remember how I spent my last scum game hunting the ITPs (eclipse should remember this, being one of them), that's kinda what's she's doing but being more transparent about it and actively seeking the credit.

As for her actual scumhunting... what is there? In her last post she finds herself unable to come to any conclusion on pretty much everyone not named kirsche, she doesn't even say if she's town reading Rapier or not, just that she's not scum reading him. In her initial vote on me it is not clear what she finds about my play scummy, other than the meta read. But she actively ignored everything that could possibly be interpreted as scumhunting by being incorrect, regarding Marth as possibly "NOT READING EVERYTHING" without commenting on what my case is like assuming he did read the case that he was questioning me about liek any competent player would.

The scumhunting before that, mostly residing in #147, isn't particularly note worthy either. Why is Marth's latest vote better? In addition, it's better to the point where even though you feel like he could do more in the scumhunting department regarding Rapier and you strongly disagree with his Terrador logic (not that bad logic is scummy, but usually when someone is using bad logic you don't use it to justify why they're town), you unvote him and leave your vote empty. This is highly unlike you, you are not pursuing lines of attack this game as much as I would expect.

The Mancer stuff is not really scumhunting as you just explain that Rapier is always defensive, ask for more content, and come to no conclusion on him (nor have you done). In fact, the strongest read you seem to have this post is on Rapier, who is sort-of bothering you because he's talked about Izhuark a lot (which is scummy, why?) and because he appaently hasn't addressed the foolishness in everyone attacking people who defend themselves... even though he addresses it in the quote you make. He outright called people out for attacking people who are defending themselves, as if they don't then they have little way of stopping their own lynches.

tl;dr people should really re-evaluate eclipse and not assume she's town on ITP spec and numbers claim.

It'd be nice if people could comment on this, although SB kind of has (though it wasn't a full case then and I've definitely elaborated more on the fluff). Izhuark if you want a place to start, this is as good a place as any, do you agree or disagree with my interpretation of eclipse's posts and intent presented here?

If SB made that Rapier case earlier then he too is wrong but he has better content to make up for it. Note that eclipse isn't 100% into killing cult leader at first, she simply mentions she wants to get rid of all independents.

Blitz is especially bad for not being here actually, EiMM is over so he should be able to post here now.

[Izhuark]

i'm kinda doubtful while i agree that the emphasis on ITP is maybe exaggerated and the two number claim come from litterally nowhere (wich is very odd), the possibility of a cultist leader is very frigthening because it can throw the balance of the game out of the window very very quickly (after looking for what is it, i grant that it's a dreadful role).

Maybe she is herself a third party whoes goal is to kill third party ? XD

I must admit that i'm really lost right now but it's make me reconsider on eclipse alignement... i will dig on her historic then re-read your arguments and see if i can make points out of it.

[eclipse]

That clock hand, marks the time left to the end.

I still want an answer to the stuff in bold.

The "RP" isn't an accident - it's a hint. Outdated numbers is a really weak role, and I already said that revealing said numbers was a huge risk.

Marth softclaimed, declared we weren't gonna lynch him today because of it, and told us we were dumb if we only focused on him. Since my vote remains on him and that doesn't compel me to immediately change it, I second Weapons's question.

I think Weapons has a very good reason to ask this, and I really want Marth to answer Weapons and Weapons' response. The fact that neither of them are around right now is annoying.

SB, get a time machine or something. ;/

I can see the padding/fluff, but personally I see that from town half the time as well during D1. It's not pinging my scumdar yet. But if I have to try to figure out her RP fluff like it's some sort of riddle in-lieu of trying to get reads on everyone else I think my eyes are going to glaze over. I can't see that being fun.

Probably shouldn't have called you apathetic though (it was mostly my initial reaction); you are paying attention.

God why am I still awake.

Throw the first sentence of most of my major posts into your search engine of choice (if Google has a lot of info on you, try DuckDuckGo). They should all have a singular theme.

(yes, this is important)

i'm kinda doubtful while i agree that the emphasis on ITP is maybe exaggerated and the two number claim come from litterally nowhere (wich is very odd), the possibility of a cultist leader is very frigthening because it can throw the balance of the game out of the window very very quickly (after looking for what is it, i grant that it's a dreadful role).

Maybe she is herself a third party whoes goal is to kill third party ? XD

I must admit that i'm really lost right now but it's make me reconsider on eclipse alignement... i will dig on her historic then re-read your arguments and see if i can make points out of it.

I like screwing over cults, no matter what my alignment is. It's one of the few things that transcends my role PM.

Also, Weapons, what do you mean clipsey's numbers are legit? Do you also have a role that tells numbers? Because it feels odd for two people of the same alignment to share the same role power that tells them the same information... Yes, I am role speccing right now. I'm also skeptical as for why clipsey did not say about numbers sooner, isn't that the most logical thing to do as numbers? Why the hesitation, then?

Sorry, missed this earlier. Revealing those numbers was a gamble, and I'm still not sure if what I did was a good idea. Cat's out of the bag, though, and that's a bit of time I will never be able to get back.

kirsche - I see those walls, and don't have time to properly respond to them. I'll get to it after work (two hours before phase end, at earliest).

Blitz's disappearance is getting on my nerves. His vote is on someone who I don't think will be lynched, and he was around plenty for EiMM aftergame. I thought he'd post in here after I went to bed! On further reread, I don't really feel like lynching Rapier, unless it's a choice between him or someone lower on my priority list (linked in the last post). My opinion of Mancer will be tied in heavily to what he says whenever he wakes up. That's all I could get out of my reskims (don't have time for much else).

Vote's staying put, for now, because I will be back before phase end. Whether anyone else is awake or not is another issue entirely.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I was going to make a joke about how kirsche vs eclipse was scum vs scum but then eclipse deescalated.

Idk who besides Marth I'd vote at this point, unless there is a sudden Terra wagon.

[Sunwoo]

Lord Gaius has been subbed in for Iris.

[ZoesMad]

Hi everyone I'm here but currently working with my uncle gardening, should be able to get at least 1 nice sized post in a couple of hours.

[ZoesMad]

I'm mostly up to date, and have been keeping track with the game.

[Balcerzak]

If people want to vote for a phase extension, in light of the new sub, please do so. I will check in again at my food break, and my 15 minute break at 8 PM and take stock of general consensus. I don't have time to votals at the moment, but there's only been little change, if my skim was accurate, since the last one.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Yes to extension

[Izhuark]

I vote for a time extension too.

Welcome lord gaius by the way hope you'll have a good time.

[Blitz]

PEDIT: Also don't try to analyze Weapons: he's a psychological headache to figure out.

inorite

okay, the reason I haven't posted in this game for a while (other than having work) was because I happened to see, this post

My role is numbers. . .for now. The current game layout is as follows:

- 10 town

- 4 mafia

- 1 cult

- 2 independent

and it gave me enough of a brain stroke to avoid posting here. This is way too much. Also, my flavor role flavor implies there is at least one serial killer. It also, kinda implies there could be more than one (I am not going into details though) and a cult on top of that is madness. Enough for me to say I have better chances of winning a 57 player eimm with only one winner.

anyways, I think I calmed down a bit after that and should get back to posting

@Blitz I find it weird that you're asking people their thoughts on Crysta when they've only made one post so far the entire thread, which wasn't even a serious one at that.

the reason I thought Crysta's post was bad was because she didn't pick any sides in the argument, but passively taunted Izhuark and left. I wouldn't be bothered if she didn't post anything regarding that though, like say Wen. Though, Wen badly needs to exist (okay, the same applied for me before this post)

My issue with Marth wasn't his jokepost. My issue with him was how he demonstrated passiveness toward choosing a wagon.

IMO, Crysta did the same, so, why didn't Crysta's post bother you?

also, I didn't have any problems with Wen's vote on me at that point, because unlike Izhuark's vote, he wasn't trying to be serious and wanted to stick to RVS. It is bad for it's own reason (not wanting to get out of RVS part) but not OMGUS reasons, which are more telling most of the times, IMO. Wen is way past his no content post excuse limit and should really get to making a content post.

Man, why does this always happen? Whenever someone starts getting defensive, people come barging in and say "you're being defensive THIS IS SCUMMY". It makes no sense. Yes, I was defensive. In one post. I clarified some stuff for SB and justified my actions because they were put into question, there's nothing wrong with this. If you guys rend me incapable of defending myself then there's absolutely nothing I can do.

this is not actually true, being defensive is a serious scumtell. It is for me. It is mainly because scum tends to be more self conscious about their plays (at least, it is for me)

I believe I already answered to this

regarding this yes, OMGUSes aren't inherently scummy, but I consider them to be more telling than a lot of other things.

@Rapier

why are you singling out Darros, when Eclipse said the same thing?

Marth is bothering me more, though. I dont think Terra openly wondering why Blitz is mentioning me every other post is unreasonable, even if it sounds a mite paranoid.

why do you think this is bad for Marth, because when I checked his post, he seemed more like just putting some of his thoughts out there, pretty much the same as what Terrador did about me.

Once again people join in on the inability to meta me. I have been remarkably apathetic for every mafia game recently. When the first time you open a mafia thread you see posts like yours it doesn't help.

this actually feels defensive.

This is clearly admitting he was about to fabricate a case on me before realising that much of it (the Mancer bit, the rest isn't scummy) is wrong and having to shift focus. The quality of the end "case" on me further supports that he was just fabricating scum reads to seem contributory. xDon't really know how Blitz is fearmongering so it'd be good if he could explain that.

why do you use the word "fabricate"?

On Rapier: It might just be me, but I feel like Rapier has a fascination with focusing on productivity over actual scumminess? I've seen variations of that theme in a lot of his recent content, and it bothers me because it suggests that he. The other thing about Rapier is, well, the point Eclipse brought up regarding Rapier's defensive section. To me it reads almost like a WHY ME? And that phrase is often said by fish off to the frying pan.

@underlined, this feels unfinished

okay, I really need to go to sleep. I just saw the bit about getting an extension and I really hope we get it.

anyways, I am gonna go with some overall thoughts on the scummy people to most people that is

Rapier has been defensive, but he is actually continuing his attacks which is a good thing. I do not have enough meta on him, other than he enjoys partial bussing and then vanishes as scum. He is kinda on the nullish side to me

Marth's first post was kinda bad. He also wasn't really interested in commenting on stuff. But, when he said his first post was a joke to say none of the wagons are worth voting, I think it adds up to what he truly was trying to say at that time. His posting style has also been more like town Marth, where he cares much less about what others think and isn't fazed by a few votes on him. I actually think he is town (based on mostly meta). But other than meta, his point on Mancer and Kirsche made sense too.

Mancer's points were quite wrong, like Marth said, but, I think it was Mancer screwing up what he meant to say and said something else. Other than that wrong read on Rapier's thoughts on Wen. SB's points on Mancer also makes sense and I think he is leaning town.

Kirsche has the attitude that says he doesn't care on what people think. He has also been slightly defensive and I do not like his usage of words. But, that is also exactly the opposite of how he plays as scum, IMO. He never stops caring on what people think of him as scum and has a please everyone attitude, unlike this game. So, I don't think he is scum either. I am putting him as null leaning town as well.

I still think Crysta is actually scum, btw, so vote stays, hopefully I get to make a better case on her once I wake up.

[Terrador]

Voting yes on extension.

[Crysta]

the reason I thought Crysta's post was bad was because she didn't pick any sides in the argument, but passively taunted Izhuark and left.

Well, yeah. I did just drop a Monty Python gif and then went to bed.

I did off an opinion when I got back to it, which is… bad? It was being discussed. You implied you wouldn’t be bothered by it if I hadn’t said anything like Wen. Why?

why do you think this is bad for Marth, because when I checked his post, he seemed more like just putting some of his thoughts out there, pretty much the same as what Terrador did about me.

Terra openly wondered outloud about something that didn't jive with him and hypothesized about it. Marth reached a conclusion on Terra wondering outloud and called it fearmongering/bad. It’s not really the same, imo.

[Crysta]

and yes to the extension (forgot to add that bah)

[Izhuark]

okay i think i have at last the knowledge necessary to scumread (at a second hand maybe i should have read the mindgame theories BEFORE jumping in the game ^^')
so i will say what i think on evrybody by following the list in the op post :

• Eclipse : Usually visible despite its phantom existence.(rp meta flavor jokes intensifies)
  The more i read you the less i have doubts about you being town even if kirsche reproach some overall uselleness in your post , i feel that your posts are genuily honest and tho not scum. But this number claim really disturb me, i don't know what to think of it... but once again it's seem to be not a lie and i don't see reasons why would a mafia post in the way you do except information control (wich is crucial in NOC). I don't mind the whole ITP thing mostly on that cult case because they are potentially dangerous. Overall i don't think there is any doubts to have on you for now.
• Crysta :
  You've did not made anything that i feel suspicious in any way, your posts were useful to the game and i don't see how they would hide any bad intension. I could reproach the odd timing you make to post but...
• Snike :
  i'd like you to post a little more, you didn't made a lot of point except your answer to mancernecro post, i think that the point you made on my argumentation was really pertinent and would like to see that more on the situation overall.
• Wen : wen are you posting ?
• Kirsche :
  You make pretty good points and your posts feels really trustworthy and i agree with you that qualifying of scummy defensive post too quickly isn't a good stategy overall but i think you dig a little too much on eclipse concern with itp and that we should focus on other behaviors.
• Blitz :
  Once again i don't have a lot of thing to deal with except the behavior we had at the beginning of the game. Your vote on crysta lack justification, taunting isn't bad when there are still no mindgames to screw up with. I think too that those number are oustanding, is it because it's a bastard game ?
• Marth : I can't figure you out, the way you post is really weird wich explain that wagon on you but the fact that you don't care about it is not something anti-town would normally do and this claim out of nowhere don't help me at all.

And i must go out of the compputer for now maybe i will be able to finish this post on my 3DS...

[SB.]

extension would be good, midway through a post but motivation is hard

[SB.]

yeah i'm really not feeling this so i'm just gonna summarise instead of going in depth

-think kirsche is town because of how hard he's going after eclipse when he has no reason to push her here as scum when there are easier avenues (marth, rapier, etc) and since it's a d1 start there can't be role stuff behind the scenes influencing it like in CYOU'RE.
-darros' vote on him is fine (not scumreading him or anything for it) but i don't agree
-crysta's marth suspicion feels like reporting over analysis + her suspicions don't seem to have evolved at all from her last post, which is pretty bad
-blitz is probably town from his last post

mafia is hard, if people want me to explain this more later i can do but i'm not feeling it right now

[SB.]

and for the sake of a change of pace

##Unvote

##Vote: Crysta

[Izhuark]

So i will cut the remaining of my post in 3 part for sanity sake.

Terra : I would like you to be a bit more talkative, you made good points but they aren't enough to picture out the game.

Weapon : You don't leave anything to be analysed so i can just ask you questions. Why do you feel suspicious about terrador ? Do you have anything to say about eclipse's or your number claim ?

Darros : You did not made many post but for know all of them are consistent and logic, i'm looking forward what you will post next.

-----------

SB- what do you mean "mafia is hard " i don't want you to explain why but wich mafia you are talking about : the actual game we are playing (in that case i don't understand what is "hard" about it ) or the mafia games in general (where in that case there is a lot of tutorial for even if having a good teacher is always better.)

[Izhuark]

ooookay i will never do that again :/ but i want to finish my post and i will.