Pokémon uPick Mafia - Day 4

[Bluedoom]

Its true that strawman hasn't been posting one-liners in this game, but he struggles a lot to get any sort of content as scum. I checked AMPM2 again to check out his scum play; it's not outright terrible in this game like it was there but he also hang actually taken part in the important parts of discussion. Check out d1 in that game, or ISO him really.

[Bluedoom]

*doesn't actually take part

[eclipse]

You're still slightly SMELLY. Your were a fairly early read and I still have some issues with your early play. The happening with Manix' claim feels like a genuine mistake, but I'm not going to use that to dispel how I felt early on in the game. Your lynch or read priority isn't exactly clear, a lot of your posts come across as defensive more than anything else. My initial issues were with the Crysta logic, rather than the vote itself, because it wasn't clear why Crysta stood out. I guess I'm having the same issues with the lack of a definitive "to do" list.

You can thank the defensiveness for being in a pretty bad mood, due to both RL and some of the other stuff on SF (none of which are mafia).

However, I don't really have a lynch priority, because one of the hot topics (Manix) requires a response to you. Dropped the Crysta scumread once I unvoted her, and nothing she's done since makes me think that she's worth my vote.

@Prims: You're probably right about the part where her questions don't get her anywhere. Not sure what to think about the activity or her wall post, really.

I'm not voting atm, more so because I would just default to Manix/Crysta anyway and they already have wagons on them. I thought of voting Boron to pressure her to give non-blitzwagon reads but then she claimed dayvig so lol.

Dunno who else I'd vote. Some flaker like Strawman? I'd go Manix>Crysta atm.

IMO vote someone who'll give good associative reads.

Yo so I realize I haven't existed and am probably about to get prodded so I'm just sayin' sorry and I'm headed out the door for work but will actually be on and participating tonight sry I'm the worst.

Keep this up and you'll make a wonderful vig target.

My other dislike for a big part of D1 was Eclipse but she's not as big a priority now, especially with claims shenanigans in that I'm willing to wait and see what she claims. And the meta townreads. For now I'll ask people who had meta townreads on her if it's mostly influenced by the role crumbing (jury's out if that's a town role or not) or if there's something rooted in play that I can count on.

I think I've claimed enough, and the fact that you're asking makes me uncomfortable. If I feel the need to say anything else about my role, I will.

Meanwhile I'm not too worried about Iris since she mentioned in-thread that she'd be gone for a bit (check the first few pages). I'll worry if she's this inactive come D3.

##Vote: Boron

The 'preview post' functionality bugged out on me at some point so I had to c/p from offsite and lost formatting. Mafia woes.

Turn off the WYSIWYG editor (button above the bold) and then grab the text. You'll keep your formatting!

If Boron knew it took the place of the lynch, why offer to use it at all? It's Weird, unless she wanted to fakeclaim it and that was an opportune time. Or wanted to claim it when it was relevant.. but it isn't, because it takes the place of the lynch. It's poorly thought-out.

What's the scum benefit of claiming it?

---

I feel a bit worse about BT because he wants to see what I claim, yet has a problem when Boron fullclaimed. I can't really see how scum!Boron benefits with that claim timing. IMO the worst thing about Boron right now is the lack of response to Crysta's wall, and that's not enough of a reason for me to vote her.

Now that I'm off of role shenanigans, I'm glad that Manix has a case, but I want to see how Manix responds to Shin. The former said he wouldn't go down without a fight, so I'm expecting something good. Manix reads as demotivated, which is something that I prefer over twitter!Manix.

Since BT is under the influence of my role, and I absolutely do NOT want this phase to end right now, I will hold off on my vote.

[Paperblade]

My main thing for Manix right now is: If you are town, give me a reason to lynch other players over you.

Boron's role is weird. It's not actually helpful to the town based on what she has said (It doesn't secure a lynch like Prims said, since the person has to already be at min. votes for her to use it on them). Its only niche use is to get us a lynch in the case that there are 2 dead even wagons and Boron really wants to push hers and no one on the other wagon is willing to back down. As mafia its use is much more straightforward: end the day phase immediately to lynch a townie who accumulated too many votes. However I feel like Boron wouldn't make a yoloclaim like that as mafia (unless she truly thought this was a strong claim) so shrug

Crysta crysta crysta. Reading her iso, the first thing I notice is she seems jumpy early in the game, which is consistent with many of the cases I've seen levied at her. Beyond that, the main issue with Crysta's posts is that her priority for scumreads is really bad/weird. The thing is, if she was maf, would she commit hard to her Blitz slot scumread and other hipster-y things?

I think BT's posts are gud

[Sunwoo]

How 'bout town reads?

Refa, Prims, and Marth. I'm feeling all right about you, too.

Crysta, if you haven't already, could you explain why Manix and Shin don't make sense as a scum team? I'm aware Manix is on Shin, is that the reason why? And if it is, any reason you think it isn't a bus? I also don't quite agree with your suspicions on Shin because I just can't see how Shin is being scummy (or at least the scummiest person in the game).

From the stuff Crysta is saying on page 17, I feel like she's trying to get her thoughts out there and interact with people. I'm still not completely convinced on her, but I feel better about her at least and I'll have a better idea of where I stand on her when I get to talk to her more.

BT's vote on me sucks because he's basically voted me for my role without explaining why said role is scummy. And yes, I know he said I was in null-scummy territory before over D1 stuff, but he literally admitted in his first sentence that he was going to vote Manix but he voted me instead over the role. As for how my D1 cases seemed more like disagreements than scum intent, I'd explained in depth why I felt what Gaius was doing was scummy and had scum intent. And yeah, I was wrong, but I went through the trouble of explaining why I felt that Gaius's vote was coming from scum (whether you agree with it or not). As for voting Crysta at the beginning of the phase over Manix, I was feeling badly about them both at the time but felt that Crysta was worse. That's all there is to it.

@Marth: I have to post the command in-thread. Not anonymous. Also, I assumed that my role was a dayvig and was planning on using it, then SB reminded me that it ends the phase.

For some reason I had a hard time remembering what Paperblade was doing, but then I checked his ISO and his play feels more like he's town self, I guess. He's being more active than when he's scum, and has more definite opinions and just seems to give more of a fuck?

Manix, on the other hand, feels like he's playing more to his scum!Manix meta.

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

I totally get that things can be awkward when you're playing in a bad headspace, but scum!Manix seems to use being lazy or not in a good place as an excuse to not post content while town!Manix plows on despite it. I didn't understand his case on Marth back in D1, either, and his case on Shin for pushing wagons, not people, doesn't seem very good. He never voted Blitz or Crysta, who were also wagons, for one, and looks like an easy way to dismiss Shin's cases without actually dismantling them by saying "it's because they were a growing wagon".

[BT.]

I'm not quite sure what to make about the case on Boron. Like, it's not like BT has said anything that's a logical leap, but I don't feel the strength of it over the Manix section underneath. A lot of people have been casing Manix and Crysta, what makes Boron stand out more?

Boron's claim pinged me and I wanted to press it asap, since it was on a slot I didn't like anyway. Like I said in the post, I would've voted Manix otherwise.

I think I've claimed enough, and the fact that you're asking makes me uncomfortable. If I feel the need to say anything else about my role, I will.

Wha, I didn't ask you about the claim, I was asking people about your meta, since a bunch of people were citing your claim behavior and how it's eclipse!town. I wanted to know if it's just the crumbing behavior or there's more to it than that, because I think basing a meta read on crumbs is error prone.

People seemed to miss this though so I'll just ask directly. Refa, you said you townread Eclipse over town and content. Can you go into detail?

[BT.]

BT's vote on me sucks because he's basically voted me for my role without explaining why said role is scummy.

My gripe with your role the moment I voted was that it didn't make sense to me from a town mindset. Like, brazenly outing your governor role so it can be used, except it's not helpful at all. I thought it fit scum alot better than town because they'd have more of a likelihood of not thinking it through.

I think I believe you about thinking it was a vig though, whatever the case. So consider it dropped for the most part.

And I like your Manix vote for the most part though it's probably an easy vote at this point. If I'm here already: one of the things I didn't like about your D1 was all the talk about metareads and how they weren't properly explained, but, like, this is exactly how meta votes look like most of the time, especially early ones. I can emphasize (even if it was my slot). But you wouldn't give it the time of day. Instead of looking at one or two posts from past games and moving on to other things it felt like you were, uh, parking on the argument too long. There was a post after a bunch of posts like this where you just go "yeah I don't like the Blitz wagon" and sign off, which I felt could have been done in the first place.

Basically, why did you focus on it so hard? I still don't like the vibes I got from that.

[Sunwoo]

My gripe with your role the moment I voted was that it didn't make sense to me from a town mindset. Like, brazenly outing your governor role so it can be used, except it's not helpful at all. I thought it fit scum alot better than town because they'd have more of a likelihood of not thinking it through.

I outed it because after I found out it ended the day phase, I didn't see any point in keeping it to myself since I couldn't think of a town benefit to it. That's probably why I hadn't considered that it replaces the lynch instead of adds a new shot, because I thought it was a dayvig.

one of the things I didn't like about your D1 was all the talk about metareads and how they weren't properly explained, but, like, this is exactly how meta votes look like most of the time, especially early ones. I can emphasize (even if it was my slot). But you wouldn't give it the time of day. Instead of looking at one or two posts from past games and moving on to other things it felt like you were, uh, parking on the argument too long. There was a post after a bunch of posts like this where you just go "yeah I don't like the Blitz wagon" and sign off, which I felt could have been done in the first place.

Basically, why did you focus on it so hard? I still don't like the vibes I got from that.

I don't know if I can properly explain. One reason why I focused on it so hard was because at the time it felt like the scummiest thing in the game for me. As for why I didn't go back and read the old games, one reason I've already explained is that I just don't have time for it.

And yeah, it's easy for you to say "it takes no time to go back and read up on some old posts on an old game," but it's not that simple. ISOs only tell you so much if you don't look at things in context, and if I'm looking at Blitz's ISO then at some point I'll have to read through the rest of the posts surrounding it to see it in context. And then think about how it compares to this game. Which is time and motivation I just do not have, especially time. Second of all, Blitz literally had two posts in this game. I fail to see how that's enough to get ANY meta whatsoever.

That's probably the reason why I focused on it so hard and why it came off scummy to me. Blitz hadn't posted enough to get a meta read on him, so I disagreed with using meta to call him scum at all. Which was why I wanted Gaius to explain it (and not point me in the direction of reading a game because I can't get anything from two freaking posts) because I'm more questioning how he even got a meta read off two posts in the first place.

[SB.]

Probably need another sub (for Iris). Message me if you want the spot.

[SB.]

Will Give Subs Food Votals
(5) Manix: Paperblade, Prims, Shin, Refa, Sunwoo
(2) Shin: Crysta, Manix
(1) Boron: BT
(4) Not Voting: BT, eclipse, Iris, Marth, Strawman

With 12 alive, it takes 4 to lynch and 8 to hammer early. You have around 45 hours to decide on a lynch.

[Grace]

i just woke up and I am feeling pretty garbage

hopefully this passes soon so i can do something

[Strawman]

I felt like Boron was pushing a bad case because she was unwilling to go read the isos of other games, and I was frustrated since I saw Gaius's defense yet everyone else just kind of ignored it. So, Boron is definitely someone for me to look at later today. Refa also kind of falls into that "Your thoughts on Gaius being bad are bad" but he was less tunnelled onto it and did other things that make me inclined to think he's town

I'm mad at myself for not being around during D1 because of the bolded. Ofc hindsight is 20/20, but looking at Marth (post #172), I think Refa (looked back, wasn't refa),Crysta (found it, post #179) and who knows who else but at least a few other people there was a lot of fence sitting in discussions wrt Gauis. Obv Boron was pushing hard, which hindsight made their interactions with Gauis look terrible also. Post #166 is boron calling out Gaius for being over defensive when it was incited because thats what people kept asking him about, so vicious cycle there with no one actually listening to defense. But then people like Marth and others bring up issues with Boron's arguments on LG, but stay on a neutral place with him. They defend him or question it a little, but don't try that hard. I wrote down that post # for Marth but not for anyone else I noticed it in and I'm mad about that,

Anyways, the point of that was in hindsight Marth/Crysta looked bad to me for late D1 stuff. Also, since Crysta/Eclipse/Blitz were the other possible wagons, the tone of the end of D1 gives me a bad feeling about them.

But then Marth is like, the most actively scum hunting player imo right now.

So fuck me and all of my worthless can't read or understand anything this game opinions.

Ooh but ok, here is a fun thought. Boron's claim is interesting and all and I get that it's hecka powerful for scum. But the timing of the claim is weird to me and its not impossible there to be other roles that might be hecka difficult for maf to night kill, even if LG was only 3 shot doc.

And no clue what I think of Manix, there wasn't much memorable from them in my reading and re-readings of D1. Like a lot of talk about wether they are lazy are lazy and meta about them, but they talked lots about rvs and jumped on the LG wagon and thats why people find them scummy.

[Paperblade]

btw

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Executioner

this is p much boron's role to my understanding

[Grace]

guess who's a shitter

it's me!

still feeling not great, gonna try and get stuff out now though

also considering the wagon just ain't stopping right now, i may as well fullclaim

togekiss, Follow Me (decoy), Air Slash (even-night roleblocker, flavor is that it's luck-based so it only can occur on even-nights)

and yes, bbm's flip was an interesting one when i saw it. i would have liked to hold the roleblocker part off for a while so i could use it, but here we are

[Bluedoom]

Boron, could you assume that Manix and crysta are town, and tell me what associative reads you'd get out of that? I know you don't like this play but if you can't get reads normally, you need to use different tools.

[Sunwoo]

Marth, I'm not 100% sure what you're asking. What kind of associative reads do you mean by that?

[Crysta]

At a cursory glance BT's posts don't look awful but I can agree that justification in voting Boron over Manix doesn't seem to be that strong. I don't really agree with the notion that mafia has a lower likelihood of not thinking their claim through; I find it to be the opposite case and mafia think it through very often. Boron's claim timing and not immediately comprehending that it wasn't vig actually rings town to me.

@Refa: Didn't have a problem with her RVS shitposting actually and I thought I said that? I put that there because I recall it being brought up as an early point against her via Marth.

My issue with eclipse is her content outside of the meta-read I have on her isn't that compelling. She's playing to her usual town meta quite well, but the reasons why she's voting the way she does seems more linked to finding gameplay bad than scummy. Like, she didn't really explain her vote on my hypocrisy until prodded further nor why Gaius defending the Blitz wagon was scummy and the latter put momentum on that wagon. I feel as a smart player she could be aware of her usual town meta and taking advantage of that to avoid further scrutiny, I guess. I haven't had the time to really delve into the games Marth provided yet.

If I recall correctly Manix's D1 case was picking on Marth's RVS contribution and calling it self-conscious without really explaining it. So yeah, it still kind of read as whiny in context. His D2 case on Shin is, well, simply wrong. And his role claim seems redundant in conjuction with BBM's flip. So while expecting content to get better it actually got worse on that front. Whoo.

Paper went from defending Manix as a "surface level guy" then voting him into D2, but the jump didn't seem illogical as he explained it further. I actually put the ** there to remind myself to go back and add to it while I wrote that but I forgot about it as I went on lol. It didn't devalue my good read on him.

My hipster case on Shin is based mostly on the wording he uses when he frames what I was doing; he contended a lot of my content still centered around Blitz when I suspect he was talking about the LATER posts (since he already commented on my content before) which really weren't, said I was "completely ignoring" much of the rest of the game (not really, I thought it was pretty clear I was commenting on whatever was going on even if none of it sounded committed), and the brainfart just sort of adds on top of my initial suspicion.

At this point I don't really care who dies between Shin versus Manix because the latter isn't really redeeming himself and if Manix is scum I don't see scum Shin. I'll be having to look into shit AGAIN during the night phase regardless.

Crysta, if you haven't already, could you explain why Manix and Shin don't make sense as a scum team? I'm aware Manix is on Shin, is that the reason why? And if it is, any reason you think it isn't a bus? I also don't quite agree with your suspicions on Shin because I just can't see how Shin is being scummy (or at least the scummiest person in the game).

I don't feel scum Shin would call attention to Manix's laziness the way he did and as early as he did as a bus. Contrary to Manix's assertion he didn't do it just when the tide was turning; if he actually did it would be a different matter. It's the same deal with eclipse. I can't see any reason for him doing that. I get distancing is a thing but I don't see any present reason for him to feel the compulsion to distance himself from either of them?

Fine with consolidating on Manix at this point. Fine with keeping the pomeranian around longer even though his recent content is nullish imo. Wouldn't mind eclipse's thoughts on Manix.

@Strawman: I don't really get any fencesitting in any of the posts you listed, unless you mean fencesitting is finding neither Boron or Gaius scummy (which is still a stance so wat?). Boron's case was an early case and she expressed pretty clearly that she found the build-up of the Blitz wagon concerning so I wasn't surprised when she began to poke in that direction. You seem to be finding us bad for not hard-defending; he was present in the thread so that didn't seem necessary.

[Crysta]

Actually the counterclaim seems really strange to do as scum so that's a thing. Ugh.

I would still like to hear her opinions on everything else re: Manix D2 though.

[eclipse]

I'm glad you have a lot of confidence in me, Crysta, but I'm dead tired, and school just ended. In other words, effort was spent on more pressing things.

Speaking of, will actually post something come morning. I'm on SF to make sure I don't have to ban anyone.

[Refa]

Wait, who CC'd Manix?

[Crysta]

i <3 you bae

it wasn't really a cc but she thought it was

[Bluedoom]

eclipse thought she had cc'd manix but it wasn't really a cc.

Boron, I mean that you're finding it hard to scumread anyone atm. If Manix and crysta flipped town, how would your reads change?

Would your townreads change? Would some people be more likely to flip scum based on their association with these two?

[Refa]

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Anyways, just so this isn't a throwaway post, using the rest of it for claims and the next one for reads.

People kept on mentioning above that they thought that Boron wouldn't mistake her role as vigilante as scum. What I don't get is why that makes more sense as town. Can people explain that?

Eclipse's CC was moreso regarding conflicting actions, right? Yeah, I agree that's more likely to be town because it's putting her slot at risk for some vague potential benefit (yeah, people like me are townreading her now but it wouldn't carry Scum!Eclipse throughout the game).

Manix's claim is null for me. I legitimately don't have anything more to say about it. I don't get why he targeted Blitz (as opposed to an active player) and role blocker sure is a role.

[Grace]

@refa: go backread my iso, i had to explain it to prims

i feel like crysta's last wallpost is scum: she defends shin while having had (and maybe still has idk can't check) a vote on him earlier this phase

might be back at computer soon but no promises

[Grace]

slight addendum: that wallpost had a scummy part to it

words are hard