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;_;

Two millers is non-standard but isn't bastard. That's an okay sort of trick to put in to punish town for rolespec. What you did was give the town roles like Jailer or Doctor that are specifically intended to find people as scum or find them as clear and then say that town should have taken the two miller hint and not followed their roles at all.

You wake up and see that... nobody is dead? Whoaaa It is now Day 5. With 4 players alive, it takes 2 to lynch at deadline and 3 to hammer. You have 77 hours and 21 minutes left (12 AM EST on December 5th).

ending phase early because why not

Yes, you got lynched over rolespec. The intention of this setup was literally for town to rolespec, get punished for it, and lose.

I have class the entire day; I made the post in the morning and then didn't realize I'd screwed up until after I got back in the evening and phase had ended.

They were calling each other by their real usernames in the QT, and did so multiple times. And you got mislynched in a game where town was supposed to lose, so eh.

I basically agree with what Rein said about the setup. If you don't want people to make use of roles then don't give them any. Like wtf, a Doctor and Jailkeeper in a game with no mafia kill is like giving the town a Cop when the entire mafia are Godfathers.

referring to you as Boron was a joke because you obviously were; nothing in the rules said that I couldn't guess your identity; just that you couldn't confirm it. >_> like wtf looking at the mafia QT they made it incredibly obvious who they were and went way over me just saying "sup Boron", it would have been incredibly retarded for you to get modkilled based on that.

blah my reads this game sucked :(( and I still blame myself for Fluffy not getting lynched D2; I was so pissed when I saw that vote switch got invalidated because I made it on the wrong account; goddamn

@Venno- Your whole suspicion is taking lines out of context. "Obviously I have no reason to sac myself for a townie" is a line where I was speaking about a hypothetical where I was mafia. The line about how successive D1/D2 lynches are bad for mafia was a direct response to SB asking why me and Objection didn't make sense as buddies- because otherwise us pushing each other as counterwagons basically guarantees a D2 scum lynch. Also, I still think Kirsche is more likely to be town than scum, but the last time I used this same reasoning, the person ended up being scum, so I'm not quite as sure. @Grass- You say that the townreads on me/Refa/Prims/Scorri are weak, but these are like half of your townreads so I have to question why you even have them. It feels like padding/forcing reads when you're so unsure of them. People wanted you to up content, but nobody said you had to have a read on every player in the game. Your Vhaltz case tries to explain away something townie (his vote on Eury) rather than actually taking it into account in your read, which is sort of bad. You do admit your explanations are sort of unlikely, but eh. What is your read on Vhaltz overall right now? Also- you agreed with me just now that a vote when a buddy is already a wagon is much more likely to result in their lynch than a vote at the beginning of the game when they're not. So why was Vhaltz ever a suspicion? Why are Prims and Scorri weaker townreads than Kirsche? It feels inconsistent and reinforces the feeling of you forcing reads.

I don't think mentioning ITP possibilities is that bad by itself but what I don't get is why in the Shin case, the ITP possibility was a reasoning for Shin possibly still being scum, but then in the Shinori case it was a reasoning for why Shinori isn't scum, where scum means anti-town and not just mafia. Actually the reasoning about Shinori being ITP just doesn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate Refa? @Vhaltz wrt Shin- idk I don't think the PR thing is that much. People know he doesn't post that often; they're not going to find him scummy just for being inactive that he has to make up a PR or something. Besides, he's not Dormio and this joke is lost on you anyways because IIRC you didn't play in Mirai Nikki.

Ugh rethinking and I think I'd actually prefer Grass to Objection. I was looking over Objection's post where he switched away from me and his unvote is bad but it really doesn't make very much sense as scum. I mean, Vhaltz's switch from me to Poly actually swung the wagons from 6-5 in my favour to 5-4 in Objection's favour. Why would he then unvote me and make it 5-3 when I was his main counterwagon? doesn't really make sense. And in fact that unvote directly following the unvote from Vhaltz completely took the momentum away from my wagon and made Prims and to a lesser extent Bizz unvote as well. So I guess Grass > Objection >> Shin atm.

First off my stomach is hurting a lot so I might not post much today. @Shin- I've actually scumhunted more over the last 24 hours than the first 24, and been less defensive IMO (discounting right after Manix subbed in) so I'm not sure what you mean? Also even though scum Mayors are a thing sometimes, I've said Vhaltz is a townread from the beginning of D2, so what's the point of bringing up D1 suspicions right now? That Vhaltz suspicion was there for you to comment on during the night, and you didn't say anything about it then despite talking about me. I think that what you said about Objection and Venno is okay though. wrt Shinori- he does bus, quite a bit, but he's more town based on Eury attacking him than his posts towards her. Also, Shinori doesn't really waffle on his bussing. Shinori needs to post more though; I don't think he's posted for more than 36 hours. Okay, well, Bizz reread. The reason I was leaving this towards the end was because unlike the other people I was null on, I had actually paid a lot of attention to her posts, and was still unsure. I wanted to get the people whom it'd be easier to come to a conclusion on first, but whatever. Near the beginning of D1 what made me sort of uncomfortable was that she was finding someone or something new to poke at in like every post. Like looknig through her ISO right now, within the first 24 hours she called out Venno, Grass, Shinori, me, SB, Elie, Paperblade, Poly, and Objection, which is like half the game. But her posting style was like really townie based on meta and she narrowed down later on so I decided it was just her being unsure since it was just RVS/ED1 and she wanted to get reactions and stuff. She then said that later herself, so yeah, that was probably okay. The only blip in her mid D1 is that she really didn't give many reasons for the Grass vote. Other than the ED1 saying the Grass vote was kind of detached, all she said was "this post is so scummy", with no reasoning behind it. Looking at late D1... ugh. Bizz actually pushes Eury more than I thought she did. I thought she voted just entirely for consolidation but she has one or two posts about why Eury's posts are suspicious before she actually votes. I still don't really like how she kept pushing me and Grass but she's actually still pushing Eury in #211, #270, #277, #337, and #342. Meh. It's not really as bad as I was thinking it was earlier today. Her D2 is mostly fine. She probably had the best vote on me because I think she actually kept giving reasons, while the other people gave some reasons near the beginning and that was it. And she was the only one to really answer my questions properly. She never really did respond to Grass asking her for more reasons, but I think she subbed out not long after so eh. Not really up to reading Manix's posts atm but the slot is probably town.

blah I'm sorry that was an overreaction. But I've spent the last whatever since Bizz said she might want a tempsub hoping you wouldn't be the one to sub in, in a game where I knew I wasn't playing well, and you coming in and starting your read on me with how I was whining and needed to get over myself set me off. I'll do your slot next, but I need to cool down.

except it is fucking at fault I don't have a read on you get that through your head. your slot is no different from any other slot in the game and expecting me to have a STRONG READ on you to go right away is no different from asking me to give a strong read on any other slot in the game. vote me for it I don't care at all anD i will not be responding to anything you say for the rest of the phase because we both know whats going to happen otherwis

I don't think that the way Vhaltz claimed his role makes him town, but the Eury vote does IMO. @Manix- not unless you give a strong read on every single playerslot in the game as well. I've been trying to get a better handle on my nullreads, but it is seriously unreasonable to expect someone to have a strong read on every person in the game. I give zero fucks if you vote me for it; I came into the day expecting your slot to be voting for me.

Also wrt the taunting the mayor back onto me, I think Vhaltz was referring more to me defending Poly today than me defending Eury D1.

WHIPPED @SB- Well I guess what I said applied more to before his weird vote. But the only thing worse for mafia than a D1 scum lynch is successive D1/D2 scum lynches. It wouldn't make sense for me as scum to push my buddy as a counterwagon to myself because I'm basically guaranteeing a scum lynch that way. Hmm, reread Elie. I think he's okay overall. His SB case was probably one of the better ones on D1 IMO. I originally thought he was around for longer before phase end, but he came in only like 5 minutes before. At the time he stated that he was against the Eury lynch, it really was too late to change it and there was no reason to state that he was strongly against it, if he was scum. He probably would have been like "yeah whatever Eury is okay as a lynch" or just not posted at all. "WIFOM" is an argument but I can't really remember Elie ever being one to do that. Leaning town for me. However, I do want him to follow up more on his D1 reads. His D2 feels disconnected from it; he hasn't really said much about SB at all today, which is weird considering he was Elie's top suspicion D1.

Except if Poly hadn't switched, Shinori would have been lynched (or there would have been a lynch tie). Look at the people who were around who weren't voting Eury- Grass, Elie, Refa, Shinori- none of them were particularly enthused about the Eury lynch, and the latter three all stated explicitly that they thought she was town (though Shinori might have voted in not-me-over-me I guess). Eury wouldn't have been lynched without that Poly vote; it wasn't too far gone at all. Also look at the time- it's like right after Scorri's vote switch. If the vote had been based on Eury threatening to surpass Shinori, and him deciding to just give up, he probably would have spent more than a minute thinking about the decision to bus Eury, and probably would have consulted his buddies or something too. Also Poly townslipped earlier; if he was scum he'd know that Eury was actually Watcher and not just making a desperate fake.

You guys got impatient and just decided to chop Eury up quickly. Eury has been lynched! It is now Night 4. You guys don't really do shit and there only a few people left anyways, so you get 32 hours and 35 minutes to send in actions.

Well, I get that Bizz won't agree with my point, but she's not the only one who doesn't agree with it. IIRC Shin changed his read on me partially because of that and I think somebody else also said it was bad? Self-voting can be scummy because it's not helping the town. But it's not exactly helping scum either. Something I forgot to say about Grass. In his post where he votes for me near deadline, #372, he says that he must have missed my opinion shift from voting for Eury to not wanting her lynched. Then next line he votes for me based on Prims's read on me even though that read is composed partially based on my opinion shift in the first place. That and some meta, except Grass doesn't even really like meta IIRC. Also I think Objection is at L-1. I still think he's the scummiest but to prevent accidental hammer (or self-hammer), ##Unvote, ##Vote: Grassbridger. I think right now I go something like Objection > Grass > Shin. I'm going through all the people whose alignment I'm unsure of one by one; I think I just have Elieson and SB left. Though rereading Refa didn't really help so eh.

Votals Eury (2) - Elieson, Kirsche Not Voting (3) - SB, Eury, Refa With 5 players alive, it takes 2 to lynch at deadline and 3 to hammer. You have 33 hours and 15 minutes left (12 AM EST on December 2nd).

What? Just because some people found his method of claiming townie doesn't mean I have to. Refa is basically saying the exact same thing right now about Shinori's claim that I did yesterday. And I'm fully entitled to change my mind after a flip, especially a scum flip. Eury pushed Shinori all day; he might not even have been a counterwagon without her. Like, I admit my logic about not being able to find both me and Objection scummy was bad (it was 3am and I was tired), but after I get lynched, if I flip scum, would you still find Objection scummy? After I pushed him as a counterwagon to myself today? Prims fully said in #304 that he says he found Eury town. And then his reasoning about me putting in baseless selective effort was a)wrong because I did in fact reread both Eury and Shinori and b)something that specifically required Eury to be town because the post in which I voted Eury, he said was scummy because I was gunning for her for arbitrary reasons, which only even makes sense if I'm pushing for her mislynch. The thing that I see different between Prims and you is that he was still pushing Eury's lynch really hard. You just sat your vote there and then it felt like you were trying to find any hole to get the lynch onto someone else. I'm frustrated because this point makes perfect sense to me and I don't get why I'm having to explain this so much. Again, I'm allowed to change my mind after a flip. Shinori and Eury don't make sense as buddies. Yesterday I was operating under the assumption after the claim that Eury was town. And again, I'm not the only person to have said what I did about Shinori's claim. Kirsche was voting Eury the entire day. This isn't as big as someone voting her like right at the very end to put him over Shinori like Vhaltz and Poly/Scorri because it's possible it was just an early distancing vote that he didn't expect to turn into a wagon near the end of D1, but the vote really didn't feel forced to me. Anyways this is probably the last defence post I'm going to write because I'm just repeating myself at this point and wasting all the mafia time I have to it is not very productive. I don't even get Objection's reasons for switching off me. It's like he completely forgot everything he was saying about me earlier. And "I wouldn't mind if he was lynched instead of me"- considering part of his original case was that me wanting to get lynched was scummy, shouldn't he be okay with anyone getting lynched over him? And him keeping his vote on me doesn't mean he can't also push for Venno at the same time. And in fact this unvote came after Vhaltz's doublevote switched away from me so I really don't know what he's going for. Poly is obvtown because even if he had a sudden 180 on Eury, his hop from Shinori to Eury made the votecount switch from 7-6 in favour of Shinori to 7-6 in favour of Eury. His vote directly got scum lynched over someone who is probably not scum and considering he'd been talking about how the Eury turbowagon blew, he could easily have kept his vote on Shinori. There was no reason for him to make that votehop as scum. Wouldn't support a lynch here at all. Reread Grass- his Shin vote strikes me as really bad because one of the two main reasons he offers for it isn't even a scumtell. Not everything you do in a scum game is restricted to your scum game, and talking about waffles is completely non-indicative of alignment. I'm pretty sure he does it as town too. I don't really like that post on a whole too, he just kind of points out suspicious things without really making a proper case on anyone. It doesn't give me any sense of priorities other than that Shin is the worst and leaves him open to switch to any of around 5 people. After that, near phase end, he still finds Shin scummy for this same stuff, with no look into any posts he's made in the meantime. TBF I'm not exactly sure how many posts Shin did make in the meantime, but still. And then he hasn't looked into Shin at all today either. In fact he hasn't really scumhunted today at all, most of his posts deal with trying to come to grips on my alignment. @Kirsche- Did you miss the part in that post where I said "other than that"? I was talking about people I'd consolidate on. And in fact I say why I don't like Kay's most recent post in that same post, just above. >_>

I responded to the question like two or three times already. I haven't dodged anything. "Well, the reason I think it might be scum-scum interactions is because it feels to me like you might have been trying to vote her to look good if she did end up getting lynched, but were still on the lookout for any possible way to switch to someone else and divert the lynch." Like you're trying to make sure that if she does get lynched you'll be voting her, but at the same time you're trying to see if there's any possibility you can get the lynch off. idk I'm tired; I'll think about it more tomorrow. If that's not the question you're asking, repeat it. Yeah I realized my logic was bad.