BBM

You still haven't explained how I was mudslinging yesterday. Also, the odds of me and Objection being scumbuddies are not very high, so I don't understand how anyone can be simultaneously okay with both lynches, and it seems like a lot of people are. Yeah, associative reads without a flip are bad, but you should still not have a scumteam in your head that doesn't make sense together.

Elieson, what is the scum intent in wanting to get yourself lynched? Also, who do you find scummier, me or Objection? @Refa - I'm not scumreading Bizz, just explaining reasoning for why she's no longer a townread of mine.

Reread Refa- Why are you looking only at one side of the association spectrum (Shinori's feelings about Eury) and not the other (Eury's feelings towards Shinori)? Other than that, his random opinion-shift on SB in the middle of D1 still bothers me, and I don't like that when people ask him to clarify, he either ignores them or answers completely facetiously. That's not really a lot though so idk about him yet. Anyways, out for a while.

Well, the reason I think it might be scum-scum interactions is because it feels to me like you might have been trying to vote her to look good if she did end up getting lynched, but were still on the lookout for any possible way to switch to someone else and divert the lynch. @Poly- uh, you know that Eury was actually Watcher right? It wasn't a desperate fake; it was her real role without the scummy bits. Inclined to see this as a townslip because her scumbuddies would know her real role, but you should read more carefully. Reread Shin a little and I don't really like how he dropped his SB case randomly overnight. Eury's #1 scumread was Shinori, not SB. With knowledge of her flip, SB was more like a secondary scumread that she was forcing herself to have because people were saying she didn't have any reads other than Shinori. And that could go either way as far as association goes. And going off what he said at night, his only real scumread atm is Venno? His read there can be summed up as Venno active lurking because he's not really doing or saying anything to contribute. That's okay, but then his reasoning for not being sure about Grass being scum is that he feels his buddies would have given him stuff to say. In that case, why couldn't Venno's buddies have given him more to say? In fact they'd be much more likely to give things for Venno, who's in his first game here, over Grass, who's not really a new player anymore. blah my internet is cutting in and out so I'm going to post this while it's here.

@Scorri- I'm not a passive role. I did idle though. @Grass- Eclipse in Fakeclaim was different. She wanted to be lynched for associative reads. I, at the time, would have preferred my role to get lynched over Town!Eury's. @Prims- Eury's role was enough to change my view on her alignment, as I said yesterday. Scum Watchers aren't that common. You're also sticking to your case and not responding to my defence. I'd like you to do that. Also, my wagon could have easily sprung up. Everyone currently voting me except Objection was also suspicious of me on D1, and other than Kirsche, were there at deadline. You + Bizz + Vhaltz would have been 4 votes by itself, and if you'd really tried you probably could have pushed me over the other wagons. That was another thing that turned me off the Eury wagon- the amount of people voting there who found me scummier and were choosing to vote Eury anyways, even with several hours for a lynch on me if they wanted. @Bizz- Yeah, there were a bunch of people unsure about Eury's alignment. You'll notice, however, that none of them were actually voting for Eury. And what Grass said is true. I don't have a strong read on you at the moment and I'm not going to force myself to take a stance on you at this very moment when there's no reason to do so. Also before that post I have never expressed suspicion of you. The most I said was that I disagree with/don't understand the reasons behind your reads, and that I didn't like that you didn't give a reason for why you found me suspicious when you voted me D1. Neither was supposed to be an indication of suspicion (the latter was more an expression of frustration). @someone (SB?)- That's just it. Prims said in that post, while pushing the hardest for Eury's lynch, that he thought she was more likely to flip town. At the time, that seemed pretty bad to me. Eury has since flipped mafia and this action makes no sense from a scumbuddy so I think he's town, but I think that with the information I had before the lynch, what I said was perfectly validated. @Kirsche- You can find someone voting for you suspicious. That doesn't make it an OMGUS. An OMGUS is when you vote someone simply for voting you. Anyways this post is long enough so more in the next one.

Oh I missed Vhaltz's post apparently. Don't really have time for a comprehensive response but if your points don't feel solid to yourself that should say something IMO.

@Objection - I asked to get lynched over Eury because I thought she was town, and Watcher is a much stronger role than mine. Also because shit cases piss me off and maybe if I get mislynched enough times for no reason other than BBM IS PLAYING TO SCUM META, people will stop doing it. @Bizz - I didn't mudsling anything. I said that I thought Eury was town, and Shinori and Prims were scum. And even if I was wrong about Eury and my opinion has changed about the other two from the flip, I don't think that anything I said before the flip was untrue. Thoughts from Eury flip: Shinori, Vhaltz, Prims, Poly, and Scorri are all town, and Kirsche probably is too. Prims argued for the Eury lynch the most, and D1 scum lynches are terrible for the mafia. I remember several games where he's hard defended his buddies near D1 end because of that. And Prims pulls turbos all the time, so nobody would have really found fault with him specifically for that if he'd tried to lead a turbo on someone else. As Prims said, Vhaltz's vote was the one that put her above Shinori originally in votes and I don't think the wagon would have been possible without him. Poly and Scorri also had really critical votes in getting her lynched. Eury pushed Shinori as a counterwagon to herself so I don't think he's scum either. Kirsche was voting Eury all day but that was when she had like 1-2 votes and wasn't really in danger of actually getting lynched. So the townread there is a bit less than the others. The only vote that was bad in terms of association on the wagon was Bizz's I think, because even though she voted Eury, she was trying to take every chance she could get to get off the wagon. She said at least twice that she'd prefer voting me or Grass over her. And this was with like more than 3 hours before phase end. If she was worried about consolidating or whatever she could have switched back later. So this lowers my townread to more of a nullread. For now, ##Vote: Objection The timing of hiis vote feels really opportunistic considering he said almost nothing about me on D1 and "wanted to get lynched instead of Eury" isn't even a scumtell. I'm a way more experienced player than her and have no reason to sac myself for her if she's my buddy. And then even if I was successful, she'd just get lynched the next day anyways because I would obviously have no reason to sac myself for a townie. She'd get one extra day at most, which isn't worth it at all. His suspicion against Venno about "what if hammer was required" is worthless because hammer isn't required, so why does it matter? And his post is like rolefish extreme. More in the evening.

You wake up, refreshed after finally killing someone evil! Too bad someone else is dead. It is now Day 4. With 5 players alive, it takes 2 to lynch at deadline and 3 to hammer. You have 72 hours left (12 AM EST on December 2nd).

3 hours and 9 minutes left.

grats :)

You have a little less than 17 hours to get in actions.

I don't think Shinori's method of claiming is a townslip at all. In fact to me it reads like he claimed a Doc variant sort of thing to create panic, and then once people pointed out it was conflicting with the fact that Balc's flip says "no Doc variants" he backpedalled and changed it from "I stop the kill" to "I stop the killer the next night" to make it more like a Hooker than a Doctor. Anyways I'm really sorry but my head is hurting a lot and I can't concentrate on this game or studying. I'm probably going to go to sleep so that I can wake up early and study tomorrow morning. Still don't support Eury lynch. If someone wants to go for someone other than Shinori, I guess Grass is the best turbo choice? Prims's "I think Eury is town but I support her lynch anyways!" is scummy. The last post where he said that selective effort is scummy is literally the only reasoning he's given for why I'm scummy beyond that I'm posting to my scum meta. He hasn't explained exactly how this is so either. Sadly he is probably not up for lynch today.

baseless selective effort is scummy if I want to specifically push a mislynch on Eury. Yet you are voting for Eury over me even though this reasoning for me being scum specifically requires Eury to be town.

Actually I remember more of your turbowagons being as town than as scum. Admittedly none of those have worked but that hasn't stopped you before. Also I repeat, what was the scum intent in that post you said was a scum post? Anyways I have a midterm to study for be back in a while.

I don't get it. "I will attempt to stop the killer". How is this not a Doc variant.

I'm not saying scum Watchers are bad, just that they're not as common. I remember like CYOR, Fakeclaim, CMV, and Theatre? There are 3.5 hours. You could get me lynched if you really wanted to. Why are you voting Eury if you think she's town? And you've led turbowagons plenty of times. Why are you suddenly so wary of one?

scum Watcher is not very common. I can only remember like 4-5 scum Watchers- most teams have Rolecops or something of that sort. It's possible but meh

wait what there are no doctor variants in the game

I did read Shinori's posts. Nothing else that I hadn't previously said jumped out, which I guess I should have said but forgot. Why is that a scum post? What's the scum intent in it? I'd rather people turbo me than vote for wagons they don't want to vote for just because it's consolidation. The reason turbowagons are shit is because people are voting in a hurry and you don't get as good association after the flip if it's a mislynch. But that's moreso the case when people are voting for people they don't find scummy than in a turbowagon case. Obviously I don't want to be mislynched but Eury's claim is hard to fake and we don't have a Doc so the pseudo-protection it offers might be one of the only methods of protection. I don't want to lynch a Watcher claim atm and my role is kind of shitty in comparison. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Shinori

Rereading both Eury and Shinori right now. I don't get how Shinori's reactions in the last few pages were townie. In fact I didn't like them at all. Shinori as town has a tendency to claim even strong roles at random times over the smallest things, even when it's not necessary. Going "no I only have 5 votes and not 7 so I'm not going to claim" seems really cagey. On the other hand Eury still has like no reads whatsoever other than Shinori. As Prims said, most of her posts have been just defending her Shinori vote. The only other suspicion she's talked about is Prims, but that's based on his tone being rude or something, which isn't scummy. And it wasn't scummy when Shinori did that either. She says she has other reads on me and SB, but they're a nullread on me and a pretty non-committal read on SB. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Eury I guess

okay I compiled votals because I was confused VOTALS Eurykins (2) - kirsche, Prims Kay (1) - BBM Polydeuces (1) - Kay SB (4) - Elieson, scorri, Shin, Shinori Shinori (6) - Eurykins, Refa, Vennobennu, Polydeuces, SB, Grassbridger Vennobennu (1) - Objection! BBM (2) - Vhaltz Grassbridger (1) - Bizz

I must have missed the post where you replied to SB. I found it, and it doesn't improve my opinion of you at all because you're like "I don't want to lynch you atm but it's not a surefire townread". If you don't think being wagoned is so townie that you might still vote for him later, then why aren't you attempting to actually see if SB is scummy right now? It also doesn't fit with your stance that at least one scum is attacking SB. I've also never played with Pesco and I don't think I've seen that meta on you. Why are you voting Prims over me if your read on him is nonsolid and nebulous? Also most of your case against Prims is sort of bad because: a) He also said that he expected Miller to claim Miller, so if he actually did roll Miller, he would still claim it. And besides, faking Miller in one of the first few posts of the game if it's not a mod-given fake is pretty risky. If he was planning on faking Miller to hide a PR he would probably wait until more people had posted to increase the chances of not getting CCed. b) He also didn't state that he was meta certain that I was scum. He said that he thought I was posting like I do when I'm scum, but that's a suspicion just like any other and can be weighed against other suspicions. A meta read doesn't absolutely have to outweigh everything else. BTW Eclipse, can you put an ISO for Vhaltz?

@Kirsche- except he's not just going "there is this one townie thing but overall he's scummy", he's going "this is townie but it could also be scum" and then he doesn't say why it could be scum. Do you have any evidence that my suspicion is just because he's suspicious of me? I agree with what you said about Eury's Shinori vote though. Being snide isn't being scummy and Eury herself is snide at times too. Read SB over. Still sort of undecided tbh. I decided to look at some of the cases on him and while I was reading Shinori's last post something about Refa popped out. He went from voting SB in #80 to not even finding him suspicious a few posts later in #138. The only reasons he gives for unvoting are that he likes the Shinori case better. And then in #138 his case on Shin is due to his vote on SB- I don't like how he went from voting SB to voting others for bad cases on SB.

Vhaltz, why are you pursuing a prodvote over your previously stated suspicions?

I guess Kay's response to my initial vote is OK but her vote on Poly still feels weak and the reasoning she gave just now is too semantic for my tastes. Saying something is questionable and off definitely indicates a suspicion, and considering he backed it up with a vote, how is it waffly? And then in the next sentence she qualifies her Venno suspicion with "kinda" which is in the same line. For some reason I thought this was only the 24 hour mark. So looking at the current wagons- I read Prims's reasoning for the Objection vote again; I guess I could go for that. I'll reread SB in the morning and come to a judgement there. Shinori has like one post (#87) where he actually states suspicions, after that it's all just elaborating when people ask him questions. Whether or not I'd consolidate here depends on the post he promised a little while back I suppose. Other than that the only suspicion I have atm is Vhaltz.